Hi SS and don't worry about rambling- I like to see how your mind works.

Yes I am further from H than I have ever been. I have stopped wanting to see him which is a big change for me. Like wise I don't know what to do at Christmas- I asked him on Saturday for ideas for presents for the boys to get, remembering the situation at his birthday. One of his suggestions was cuff links which is something I had been thinking od getting him from me. Since Saturday I now feel ambivelent about this.However there are still 6 weeks until Christmas so I don't have to make a decision for a few weeks. I will certainly work with the boys for them to get him something.

My feelings are mixed. I do feel distant from him, and less love towards him, though I doubt I would ever not have some love for him. I would find it easy at this time to become involved with someone else. But I also know that God is in my life and I can't go against my own sense of what is right and wrong. I am lonely and would love to have someone to share my deepest thoughts and the lighter moments of life, plus parenting with but as yet that isn't to be.

Hope this doesn't make you worry more- but you asked!!
Jante

No, it doesn't make me worry more. There is some measure of protection in knowing your own mind, and it seems that you do. You seem more willing to look inside and question your own motives and feelings than many do that come here, it has been good for you. That is the best chance we have for change and improvement, that and prayer.

I know that living right does not mean we won't have problems, but I still can't shake the feeling that things will work for you. I have another story for you. If T does come around, and if you can find it in you to take him back, this story would have a lot of meaning to you. It is in Judges Chapter 7. Gideon takes Israel to fight against Midian but God keeps sending some of the Israelites home until there are only 300 left. I believe there were over 10,000 of the Midianites. God said he doesn't want Israel to think they could do it by them selves, and he wants them to know when they win, that it was God that made it happen. If this marriage is ever put back together for you, it will be the same. I suspect you will know HE is there working for you.
I still feel you have other events that this is just a precursor to, and you are getting the strength and ability to do future things. ( BTW, Israel wins.)

Some of our greatest blessings come from our greatest hardships, but we seldom realize it at the time.

Thank you for sharing your feelings. I am sorry for your feelings of loneliness. Sometimes we have no one but God, and we have a hard time understanding him. For the next few months, you will just have to be content with his company, that and your friends.

I have wondered how your Mum is getting on? Also FIL - has there been any change with him?

SS

Hi SS and thanks for the encouragement. I was saying to my boys this afternoon that i have done all I can and its not been enough so I know now that if T comes home its because of what God has done.

FIL seems to be fine with his medication, I will see him briefly on Saturday. I know that T is concerned about his Dad and what the prognosis is- his dad has been very upbeat when discussing it.

My Mum is doing really well, and is moving around much freer than before. She will always have to use a wheel chair for journeys away from home but can get around home ok now.

Good session with school today- they have talked to D about why he behaves as he does and ways in which he can relieve the boredom with out getting into trouble. I have been pleased this term with how things are being dealt with.

Jante

It seems like your Mum is doing well, FIL has hope, D is improving.

Only one big thing left to improve, so lets see if that starts going well too.

I am also away for a few days, I suspect you will have a wonderful time, hope you do. If you get back before I do, check in on LIR and help her if she needs it.

SS

Hi SS, well if the M is to improve it will need a big change. I saw H for a total of 1 hour in 2 parts this w/e and spoke no more than 5 sentences to him and felt relieved rather than upset. I am fast reaching point of giving up altogether as I am not sure I want this M any longer.
Jante

Hi J,

I came on for a few minutes last night and thought to post to you but the twins came and got me to read them a story and I never came back. I have been thinking about you this morning ( you and LIR) and I am having a hard time knowing what to post to you. I will think some more, and come back and try to post before you go to bed ( or at least before you SHOULD go to bed, sometimes you stay up late.) I came on this morning and intended to post to you first thing, but - sometimes it is hard to know what to say, and how to say it. Sometimes it is easy to know what to say, I did some posts this morning that came easily to me, but it's not always like that.......easy I mean. I will have some questions for you. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />
I assure you that I do care.
SS

<small>[ November 18, 2002, 01:27 PM: Message edited by: still seeking ]</small>

Hi J,

If I was to see you face to face the first thing I would say is " How are you.......really?"
Usually we give a cursory greeting and don't listen very well to the answer, because we usually get the standard answer. I would really like to know how you are doing. Just so you will know, I am not talking about if you are getting enough to eat, and if you exercise daily.

Before you answer that one, lets go on to the rest.

I feel that I am no longer sure if wanting to wait out this situation with so little hope but as if i want to bring closure to allow me move forward- possibly into a new rel. I think loneliness has a big part to play, these w/e bring me in contact with like minded people and its hard to go back to house even though the children are there.

I could imagine last week you going out for a fun weekend and coming home and wondering why. Why do I take this from H? Why when there is so much to do, to see, to enjoy? Why don't I move on and have a happy life and quit worrying about him? Why can't I have happiness like so many others are having? Why should I wait for someone to come home that has broken all the rules and says every time we talk that he is finished?

I don't have any answers to any of those questions. I have said before that logic would require that you get on with your live and D him.

I may be wrong, often I have said things that don't make much sense when I look back at them. I wonder what I had been thinking to say something that now looks so silly.
So I go out on a limb again. I believe your quote doesn't say quite what you are feeling. I believe you still have some confusion, and doubt but that you are finally trying to go on because it hurts to much to stay where you are. That is why I would ask you how are you doing. I probably shouldn't say this but I am afraid If I did meet you and asked you, you might burst into tears, and tell me that you don't know. I am not sure why I think that, for you have show you are a very strong person.

You found out this weekend that there is a lot going on out in the world. You are lonely, you want life again. It was not meant to be just work, taking care of children, and helping others. Life is supposed to be happy, not living in fear, and loneliness., and wondering what will happen. I don't even know where you went, and what happened, but to say you didn't want to go back to the house tells me a lot, for you have ( in many ways ) a very good life.

When I said protect your feelings, I didn't think you would go out and find a boyfriend, there are many things that can cause doubt, I think you know about that. I am not even sure why I have had such a strong opinion about things on your thread. I usually don't comment on many things that I have been outspoken with in your case. I still feel today that you and T will get back together. It's just a feeling I have had and so I have tried to communicate that you have to do what you feel to do, not what I suggest. If you were to say today that it was over and you were seeking D, I would try and help you be happy in that decision. The hope that I have for you is that you will continue to seek the face of God and do what he wants you to do. It is not really consistent with the way God works for him to have someone half way around the world suddenly get messages for you, and I have never tried to claim that. I just want to be a good neighbor and help if I can help. I try to encourage you to seek his help, and I pass on what I think I observe in your life. I have also tried to help you to be happy when you are sad or hurt.

I don't believe you are going to seek a D this next week, and I am not worried about you doing anything foolish, I just don't think you will. I just want you to understand that I know that God does care about you personally. I am not talking about him loving all his children and caring for us all, he knows you and cares for you even more than you know and care for C, A, and D. What I wish for you is that you continue to seek to know what God wants you to do, and do that. My feeling is that it's a good idea to wait until after Christmas and then take stock and see where you are. ( I suspect you are going to do that anyway, but I just thought I would throw it in.)

I can't see the future, you could be in the middle of a D by the end of March or in April. If my feelings are correct you could even D and then reconcile later. I really don't know how it will play out.

You know what? I am really glad you had a good time. I believe you needed it. I am glad your feelings are not so strong, for you won't hurt as much for a time. I hope I am wrong about your feelings being confused and about you hurting much down deep inside. I hope you are sleeping well each night, I hope you were able to come home and love the boys and re-assure them that life is still good and will continue to be so. Faith in God will do that for you, I recommend you continue to seek him, for he is real, and I know it. I have learned that even if we make mistakes he can still make things right if we continue to seek him and try to do his will.

So,
How are the boys, and do they ask about what you do, and do they know where you go?
How does T react when you are more distant to him? Does it bother him, and if so, how does he show it? Does he even know things are different?

It has occurred to me that your feelings could even be so you will finally be able to detach enough to get T off the fence. Now I am just speculating and it is probably not good to go on without direction.

Somehow I can't find it in me to tease you today, but I am thinking about it anyway and smiling. I hope you are smiling too. If I get things really wrong about how you are thinking and feeling, you can always tease me about it.

SS

Hi SS and thankyou for your reply. I hope you also had a good time while you were away.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">How am I? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I'm actually feeling fine- just very tired of being on my own- and not even having the freedom to form a new rel. I look at T and know that he is happily having fun, spending time with an adult who he can share his hopes, fears and joys with. I spend my time sharing with a computer!

I had a great time at the w/e partly because I did things I hadn't done before, partly because I spent time with people having a great laugh and talking about all sorts of things as well the situation we find ourselves in.

As far as T's reaction to me not communicating is to look puzzled and to continue to talk to me as he always has. I realise that as far as he is concerned my outburst was just one of those things that didn't change anything, but for me it marked a big change in my feelings and outlook. I finally decided enough is enough. I am not wuite at the point of filing for divorce- but I'm close. I don't see any hope left and I want the freedom to be myself and to have new friends and not feel guilty if they are male.

This is quite a change from a few weeks ago but i suppose its what SH talks about with love dying.

I know I should be holding on to what Gods said to me in the past but I feel that all has died.

Jante

J, even the tone of your posts seems to have changed. I hope I have not offended you or that you have become tired of the comments given.

So what are you thinking, or are you still trying to sort things out?

I find myself wondering why you would be up so late - for this last post, even though I know you sometimes are, and it's none of my business really. Lets see, no, it is really only about ll:00 Pm for you, so not too bad.

I also wonder what your DB friends counseled you to do when you had a chance to speak to them face to face.

Thanks for the comment, and I did have a safe trip and returned home to all well with my family.

SS

<small>[ November 18, 2002, 05:27 PM: Message edited by: still seeking ]</small>

Hi SS

posted November 18, 2002 05:18 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"J, even the tone of your posts seems to have changed. I hope I have not offended you or that you have become tired of the comments given. "

No you haven,t offended me and I'm sorry if that is the impression you got- I think I may just have been tired when I was posting sdo was briefer in my statements. I look forward to reading the comments even the odd ones I might not agree with!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

"So what are you thinking, or are you still trying to sort things out? "

I wish I knew how to sort things out if I did yes I would still be trying but I feel as if I've tried everything except a true plan B and so that is all that is left. However with Christmas coming up I'm holding back until after wards as I don't want to spoil the childrens day- just being less available to H than I have been recently.

"I find myself wondering why you would be up so late - for this last post, even though I know you sometimes are, and it's none of my business really. Lets see, no, it is really only about ll:00 Pm for you, so not too bad. "

Yes 11pm is about my bedtime as I don't sleep if I go any earlier, and often have to wait until 10 to get on computer anyway!

"I also wonder what your DB friends counseled you to do when you had a chance to speak to them face to face. "

Not much in way of counsel, rather more of fun and laughter. Although we talked about rels. there was not much in the way of advice for me. Perhaps because I have been going so long and have always said I won't do the dving people don't suggest it. It was mooted that I start to move on, even date to throw H!
My feelings at this time have less to do with what was said and more to do with just beingvery tired and impatient with the waiting for H to come to his senses. I see less and less to make me think it could happen and as he will have been living with OW a year in another month I feel ready to quit. I also find I know longer feel attracted to H.

Sorry for long winded moan. Jante

<small>[ November 19, 2002, 09:15 AM: Message edited by: jante ]</small>

"J, even the tone of your posts seems to have changed. I hope I have not offended you or that you have become tired of the comments given. "

No you haven't offended me and I'm sorry if that is the impression you got- I think I may just have been tired when I was posting so was briefer in my statements. I look forward to reading the comments even the odd ones I might not agree with!!

I admit that the style of the post so unnerved me that I worried about you quite a bit yesterday. I was afraid that you would go right from wanting things to work, to D in a few weeks. It wasn't sounding like you..........so I wondered if you were tired of being encouraged and just wanted to be done with things. I also considered that there may be other factors that I knew nothing about and being tired is certainly one thing I had not considered. You really did not infer that you had been offended, but It was one thing that is always possible, as inept as I sometimes can be.

....... I feel as if I've tried everything except a true plan B and so that is all that is left. However with Christmas coming up I'm holding back until after wards as I don't want to spoil the children's day-
It would be far better to spoil their day than to run so dry that you could not do a plan B at all later. I don't know if you are near to that point but I admit I worry after watching your feelings change. Note that I believe I understand why they are changing and I don't fault you for the feelings you have.

It was mooted that I start to move on, even date to throw H! My feelings at this time have less to do with what was said and more to do with just being very tired and impatient with the waiting for H to come to his senses. I see less and less to make me think it could happen and as he will have been living with OW a year in another month I feel ready to quit. I also find I know longer feel attracted to H.
I have seen this day coming since June. For over a month I have had the belief that it would take as much a miracle for you to take him back as it would for him to ever want to come. It has had me wondering about my feelings but I have depended on them for so many years that I still...........well, I still wonder because I don't understand the way it is going. As has been said before, whatever you feel to do is what you should do, it has to be that way.

Sorry for long winded moan.
Actually It is nice to get a little more from you because it helps to see what you are thinking. It doesn't sound like a moan, but you can call it that if it feels like it to you.

Please don't feel like God has abandoned you, I don't really think you do, but sometimes it is hard to keep our faith strong when we can't see the answers in front of us.

SS

Hi SS

Well nothing new today except
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> As has been said before, whatever you feel to do is what you should do, it has to be that way.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I feel closer than ever to giving up, I just don't feel like going on with this any more
Jante

Dear J,
I suggest you write a plan B letter and go to B. Just tell him you changed your mind about Christmas and that you can't take it any more.

The boys can see him within a few days of Christmas, they sometimes feel dislike for his visits anyway.

I feel to ask -
Is there something else I should know?

J, I also suggest you pray and confirm with your Father the choices you make. You have walked with him too far to ever leave his side. I have prayed that God would help you in this very difficult time, and I trust that he will. I have also asked him to help you to make the right choice and I trust that you will. Examine your heart, pray, and then do as you must do.

SS

<small>[ November 20, 2002, 02:09 PM: Message edited by: still seeking ]</small>

Hi SS

"I suggest you write a plan B letter and go to B. Just tell him you changed your mind about Christmas and that you can't take it any more. "

Despite feeling at the end of my marriage and not wanting to try any more I don't feel I can cancel the plans for Christmas. I also feel at the moment not to write a letter just to make a point of being distant at the moment. this may be cowardice on my part. I don't want to stir up more trouble.

"The boys can see him within a few days of Christmas, they sometimes feel dislike for his visits anyway. "
Yes I know they do but if I stop their Dad coming they will blame me for stopping them seeing him.

"I feel to ask -
Is there something else I should know? "

No nothing has changed- I feel drawn to someone and that makes me feel hypocritical for insisiting on trying to save a marriage I know longer feel able to continue. I took my ring off last night- it just seemed that I am no longer able to maintain my determination to keep the vow for better for worse.

J, I also suggest you pray and confirm with your Father the choices you make. You have walked with him too far to ever leave his side. I have prayed that God would help you in this very difficult time, and I trust that he will. I have also asked him to help you to make the right choice and I trust that you will. Examine your heart, pray, and then do as you must do.

I have prayed long and hard through out this long battle- now I just feel as if I am floating in nothingness.

Jante

Hello again,
Perhaps you are calm and happy about where you are going. For some reason I find my self in turmoil over what is happening to you. I often wish I could do more for people on the forum, and it is true in your case.

I also feel at the moment not to write a letter just to make a point of being distant at the moment. this may be cowardice on my part. I don't want to stir up more trouble.
I don't believe a person who has done what you have done could be called a coward. I believe you are just too kind and caring ..... if there is such a thing.

No nothing has changed- I feel drawn to someone and that makes me feel hypocritical for insisting on trying to save a marriage I know longer feel able to continue. I took my ring off last night- it just seemed that I am no longer able to maintain my determination to keep the vow for better for worse.
Be glad to listen if you ever want to talk. Have wondered....... Please don't be afraid to tell us your feelings, we only want to help.

I have prayed long and hard through out this long battle- now I just feel as if I am floating in nothingness.
I hope you are still praying daily, if not, it would tell me a great deal about where you are.
There really is someone on the other end, please don't give up on the only sure thing there is. I know you have felt Gods love and presence before, he's still there. Recall that when Christ was crucified he said at the end "My God, My God, why hast thou forsaken me." Even he was required to do some things himself without help. Perhaps this is your final test, please hold on to God.

I am not saying to continue to try and save your marriage, I am saying that no matter what, you need to continue to seek God and do his will.

I wish I could do more, if you want to talk, I am glad to listen. If you feel the need to withdraw somewhat, I can understand that also.

Take care of those boys, they need you all the more right now. I hope you will continue to come and talk to us.

SS

Jante,

Are you OK?

I think if I was in your shoes, I would feel exactly the same - like giving up, and then would come that sad, floating feeling.

Because once you let go, there is the emptiness that fills the space where once there was a relationship, and after the relationship was broken, there was the broken relationship, and after that, there was all the work of trying to keep some kind of friendship going, then there comes a point where you realize you have to let go of your dreams, because the only thing filling the space where your husband used to be is your own commitment.

It sounds like you have realized that sleeping with your own commitment to keep you company can only go on for so long - and I agree with you. You deserve better than this, and you deserved better from your husband all along. You cannot change him and you cannot influence him to change. I am still working on my marriage, but I am very aware that there is no guarantee. I often look at your situation and think that if my H and I were not Catholic, and my H has been a "strict" Catholic, he would be right in your H's shoes right this minute - having a good time with no remorse.

There's only so much one person can put up with. To me it sounds like you have a lot going for you which other people recognize, and you are wanting to start to live again, not be tied down to a union which no longer exists.

I would keep praying - I know that miracles can happen - and it is true that sometimes people divorce and remarry later - my uncle did, in fact - his first wife had an affair while he was in the Navy - they divorced, and later in life, after they had both married and raised families with other people, they got back together again and remarried - her H had died, and he and his wife were separated. They are happy as clams now.

But I would really say that now is the time to start living for YOU - you said you didn't want to go home. I have also felt that dread of going back into my own home - but my boys need me - they need a mother they can admire and respect and look up to ESPECIALLY if their dad has let them down. You mean more to them than anyone, don't ever forget that.

You are worn down and tired out. Last year, all winter, I treated myself to aromatherapy back massages - believe me, they HELPED - I was amazed at how much my mood could lift by having that - try it - there must be someone in your area who does this - its very popular now and it REALLY works. I haven't been able to do that this winter, because I am paying for my own counselling now, but I am going to treat myself to a full body massage for my Christmas present to myself.

Please, please do something nice for yourself - you need some TLC. Crying will help, but cry into a bath full of lavender oil, with candles around, and you will actually feel better. I hope I am not sounding trite because I don't mean to.

Hope you have a better day tomorrow. How is the weather at your end of the country? Wet and cold?

Take care,
LIR

Thanks SS and LIR for understanding- I feel a failure in many ways but have decided I need to move on fully. As H is planning to dv me in Feb anyway I won't do the filing but will pull away in other ways. I have decided to tell him to buy his own presents for his parents- all this year we have bought them together which has meant I've done the shopping! I am now looking for ways to enjoy myself and pamper myself. I don't feel the least bit like crying- in fact I feel relieved.
SS I am praying still and feel at peace not at all stirred up as I have in the past. Perhaps I really had to let go like this to let God do his bit- whatever that may be.
I will continue to post as I have anything to share but may not be as often.
Jante

Hi J,
I don't think I can match what LIR said, but I do want to make at least one point.

I feel a failure in many ways
Feelings of failure come to all of us but we often see only our weaknesses, and not our strengths. We seem to see the bad times but fail to recognize the good.

One of the reasons I have stayed around and posted to you so long is because I wanted to help you see the good. You are quick to point out when you make an error, but you seldom admit to doing a good job. Do you know, that I am a failure in many ways also? I could list them for you, if you had the time but it would run to many pages, and it wouldn't be productive for either of us. I am not really trying to bring you to task for saying what you said, I am bringing attention to it to channel your thinking - so here goes.

It's time to take credit for all the good you have done. We need humility, but we should be realistic about things. It is good to think on our failings at times, if we don't than we cannot change them into strengths. We also need to take stock of where we have been and how far we have come. Think about where you were two years ago, think about where you are now. What great personal progress ! ! One of the most difficult things for us ( it seems) is to realize that God doesn't measure like man does. In our Olympic games there is only one first place, In Gods, everyone who does the best he or she can, gets a medal. There will always be regrets, we will always say, " I wish I had done better." Sometimes we need to realize that with the limits we had at the time, there is no way we could have done any different than we did.

I see many strengths in you. You are a good example to your boys, you care deeply for them and have sacrificed your own comfort to have H spend time with them many times. You have taken charge of your life to gain skills, earn a living, and make a good home for your family. You are patient, loving, hard working, helpful, and there are many more things I could list. If I had called you patient - say a year ago, you may not have believed me, but you must admit that it is not false praise after spending time entertaining OW in your own home and being able to be nice to her. You have grown up emotionally, and you are not the girl you were when all this started. ( but even then you were quite something.)

I'm glad you said what you said, it gave me an excuse to write this today, you need to hear it, you need to know it.

I have decided to tell him to buy his own presents for his parents- all this year we have bought them together which has meant I've done the shopping!
You are very kind to have done it so long, I agree that it's time for him to be on his own in these things. You can still remember them in some way, I suspect you still love them.

I am now looking for ways to enjoy myself and pamper myself. I don't feel the least bit like crying- in fact I feel relieved.
I am so glad you are doing well. As I have said before, it is very hard to know a friend hurts and not be able to help.

I am praying still and feel at peace not at all stirred up as I have in the past. Perhaps I really had to let go like this to let God do his bit- whatever that may be.
You have said a great deal, but some thoughts you keep close, and there are always things we don't say. This part tells me what I needed to know, and I will TRY not to worry as much.

J, you are a wonderful person, I believe you have many blessings yet to come, and much happiness.

SS

Thanks SS- I am not crying at my loss of M any more but am brought to tears at someones high opinion of me. I feel so often that I have failed as a mum and as a wife. Hope I can succeed as a friend to others.

Jante

Hi friendsI took my ring off tonight- it seemed hypocritical to continue wearing it when I can no longer honour my vows- for better for worse. I have given up at - worse.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The ring is off my finger but I realised that it is still in my heart. I looked at H when he came to visit the boys and know there is still a tie that binds. However I am also moving on and being a person in my own right, making decisions for me that bear no rel to what H might advise/suggest.

While H stayed with the boys I went off to enjoy touring the garden centres of Derbyshire, doing some Christmas shopping! I realised as I drove round the beautiful countryside how much I have to be thankful for.
1. I'm alive to enjoy life- after the crash a month ago thats a big thing to give thanks for.
2. I have my sight - the beauty of creation surrounds me in this lovely county and I thoroughly appreciated it yesterday.
3. I have all my other senses to enjoy life with.
4. I have three wonderful boys who make my life worth living.
5. I have great friends, old and new to share this enjoyment with.
6.I no longer have worries over money- spent most of my childhood and marriage staring at bankrupcty.
So folks what have you got to be thankful for.
Jante

ps Just relaised that for our USA friends its hanksgiving time but honestly hadn't thought about it until after starting to type!!!!