Wonderful post committed,

That sounds like Honey's situation in a nutshell. She has all the facts and all the power to take control over her situation and do what is best for herself and her children i.e. (D the bum and get support for the kids) yet refuses to help herself.

It's unfortunate that we can all throw a lifesaver to the person struggling in the water but unless they CHOOSE to grab a hold of it they are destined to drown.

Honey can choose...she just chooses to drown.

Tagging off <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

Feeling again like it is unsafe to vent here. Not here for advice or what to do.. here for support and friendship.. all others not out to do that .. just leave me alone.

YOu don't know the whole situation, and don't you have better things to do with your time than come here and criticize and analyze my posts?

Not going to go back and defend all your attacks.. many of my postings were ventings!

BTW- I am sustaining a 2 person household on a one person income.. although I do .. do well..- but... would like to say,.. I am overwhelmed and stressed and not here to be critizcized and bashed... HELLO BASHED.

Asking for helpful advice to save my marriage , not destroy it. MY CHOICE is to save it.

Jen's advice was PLAN A. OK? NOT Filing for a D.

thanks

<small>[ October 30, 2002, 01:18 PM: Message edited by: Honey ]</small>

Honey - Again I just want to say that I do not think that anyone is bashing you - Really - I think that everyone justs listens to your venting and they are trying to help you but you just don't like the help they are giving you - I have the same problem in my life with everyone telling me that it is over get on with it - (in my situation not yours) but some reason everytime I read one of the posts from for example committed and loving it - it gives me strength to do what I have to do to protect my children and myself - No one wants you to end your marriage what they are trying to say again is that your husband has the major problems not you - and that you cannot change him as much as you would like - I think most people here would like to go to sleep tonite and wake up tomorrow like this whole nightmare we are all living in was a dream - but we don't always get what we want... Do you want people to say yes it is ok to call him and iron his shirts - well that may be what you want to hear but really not what people think you should be doing - I think you are selling yourself short as a person - I am a one parent household - with a huge mortgage and two girls ages 9 and 12 to support with only 150.00 a week in child support - I have a dog and a cat - and every bill that comes along with that - I work forty hours a week - cart my kids around to activities - and I am extremely over whelmed and basically feel like jumping off the deep end on many occassions - (but I am divorced now in my case basically because that was what was in the best interest of my children and the fact that he wanted one and I didn't want to fight him anymore) - I love him very much and I struggle each and everyday because we are not together - but I cannot change him...........

The title of your post says you are asking for advice, not support. I read this last page and I don't get the impression you are being bashed. I do know what it is like dealing with an alcoholic, my dad is one. I have severely limited my exposure to him because of it, he is too upredictable and I didn't like my daughter exposed to it.

Maybe some people here see you being treated worse than you should be and care about YOU. Not what your alkie estranged husband is doing lately.

Please, calm down, and try to see their point of view too.

Honey ~

Your fear, your anger and your self-will is getting the best of you again.

You can love your husband from now until the day you die. No one can or should stop you from that. You can choose to stay married. No one but you has to live your life and live the consequences of your choices.

The problem here is that you are scared to death, and decisions made from fear are not reality based. Choices made from fear don't have optimal outcomes, simply because your choices don't mesh with reality, and unfortunately reality always wins.

The problem is that you are so incredibly scared of losing your husband that you don't want to hear any advice or support that your fear tells you will end your marriage.

I have seen very little bashing and alot of caring in the posts written to you. The problem is not with THEM. The problem is the fear that that rises screaming into your face everytime someone gives you something besides "You are doing great Honey!"

The problem is Honey, that the man you say you love doesn't exist any where except in your self-will and imagination. Unfortunately, I'll bet your husband, like mine, knows this. My husband said to me "You don't love ME, you love some fantasy guy that I can never be and don't want to be!!!" He was right. How dehumanizing and disrespectful I was to him - looking right past HIM and trying to mold him into my own self-will.

You keep insisting that you won't give up (you don't have to) and that you are going to "be like Christ" in your love - instead of "tough love".

Do you think that parents who use tough love on their children stop loving them and give up on them?

Of course not.

Like Christ, those parents set their children free to make their own choices, and get out of the way - truely detaching and respecting their children to choose their paths. But with that comes real Christlike love - loving their children enough to allow the consequences of poor choices to happen anyway.

I learned in Al-Anon that when I protected my husband from consequences - I did the opposite of love. That what I did was take away my husband's opporunity to learn life lessons that would help him grow. That "love" meant first and foremost respect for another's individual choices.

I want to address the self-will issue soem more here because Honey - this is probably one of your biggest stumbling blocks right now.

Your self-will is driven by fear, resulting in anger.

The problem is, wanting a specific outcome doesn't for even one second, make for a guarantee.

Let me tell you about wanting a specific outcome.

This week is the 5th anniversary of my sister's death. One night at 3am I received a frantic phone call from my father - my 19 year old sister had fallen from a cliff while hiking at school in California. She was still alive, we had hope, because even though it had taken 3 hours for the paramedics to reach her in the deep ravine she'd fallen into, she was awake and responding to the medics and helicopter crew as they medivaced her out. I spent the next hour on my knees, storming heaven for the life of my sister. I told God right then and there that her death was NOT an option. If my wanting, if my self-will had any power whatsoever, my sister would be alive today.
Finally, as I waited by the phone to hear any news from the hospital thousands of miles away, I submitted to God and let go of MY will. I begged God with all of my heart for HIS will for her, because I loved her and I wanted what was best for her.

Shortly thereafter, we heard from a devastated surgeon, telling us that the internal damage had been too great, that if he had been able to get to her hours earlier she might have lived.

Honey, I didnt' WANT my sister to die. She did, even though *I* wanted something else.

Now you may tell yourself: Yeah but BR couldn't do anything in that situation, there is stuff I can do in mine.

Yes that's true. There are things that you can do that will give you a better chance at saving your marriage, just as a few more hours might have saved my sister.

But the bottom line is, really, any sense of power that you have in this situation is simply an illusion. You have no more power in this situation than I did the night my sister stepped over the edge of thath cliff.

Now remember, I told you that I finally ACCEPTED the reality of the situation and God's will, just before I got the news of her death?

It wasn't MY plan, but God took that horrible situation and made some very beautiful results. My sister's death has touched people all over the world. She has in death, touched so many people, has saved lives, has brought people back into relationships with God, has done so many beautiful things. Had she lived - who can say what would have happened? But I can say that many people might not have experienced the healing, the faith and the goodness that her death brought about.

Why am I telling you all of this? I want you to learn to start talking back to your fear. I am not telling you to get divorced. I am telling you to start looking at yourself and find out what your motivations are in this situation. Are they healthy? Its clear to me and many others that your motivations are rooted in denial, self-will, fear, and anger. As long as you refuse to address this problem with YOU, you won't be able to make wise choices for yourself or your kids.

Your husband has a disease.

Your husband is a man who chooses not to protect his wife and children from his disease.

Your husband is a man who chooses not to take responsibility for himself.

Your husband can not choose whether or not he is an alcoholic. But he can choose to treat it, and so far, he chooses not to, at the extreme expense of his family.

This is who he is. We have to deal with individuals based on the present, not the past (who you imagined he was) or the future (who you "will" him to be). To do otherwise is not just or fair to your husband.

It is your fear that has led to your controlling of your husband over the years. And it is your fear that is keeping you from hearing what others tell you - instead it gets translated through your fear as bashing and "dump him" comments.

Remember what I wrote on my mirror?

"This, or something better."

THIS is my self-will, my plans, my demands, my list of blueprints for how my life is SUPPOSED to be.

Something better can only be achieved when THIS is let go of.

You've heard the story about the monkies that get trapped because they stick their hands in very narrow holes to grab a treat, and can't get their fists back out, right? That's where you are at right now.

Honey, I didn't WANT my husband to have an affair. I didn't WANT my husband to be an alcoholic. I didn't WANT to be pregnant with a third child when he moved out. I didn't WANT my husband to be unemployed for 10 months and I didn't want to be a working mom (which I am now) and I didn't WANT my daughter to be in daycare (which she is).

None of these things were acceptable options to me. BUT they were reality, whether I accepted it or not.

MY plan said that my husband was my fantasy guy (unrealistic fantasy guy, disrespectful in the extreme to the real man I married) that we'd live a perfect life with well rounded, well behaved children who lived in a perfectly managed home.

When I didn't get that, and got the other stuff, I was ANGRY. I wanted it MY way because that was the BEST way, the way it was supposed to be.

When I let go, I got my husband, the real guy, and a marriage that is far more fulfilling than I have ever had or ever imagined it could be. I have a beautiful daughter that has brought such love, joy and healing into our home. I have a job that I enjoy far more and am better at than I ever was at keeping house (frankly, I was a SAHM for 10 years and sucked at it). My daughter is thriving in her "school" and my boys are growing up so quickly.

Everything in my life is the opposite of what I would have planned for myself.

And my life couldn't be happier right now. Do you see what I am saying?

You need to work out these fears, address them, fight them and talk back to them. Let go of your will, so something BETTER can take its place.

Open up your mind Honey - because until you let go of the specific outcome (the THIS) then nothing else can take its place and you will continue to live like THIS.

Bramble,

Your experiences and more importantly your wisdom are gifts to us all. More than that I'm speechless with gratitude; CSue

Bramble - your response was beautiful.

Honey, I am not trying to be mean so I am going to say this as kindly as I know how. Your reaction to this whole situation has been very childlike. Go back and look through it all with an open mind, and I feel sure you will have to see the childishness throughout (after all, brainless people don't have MBA's) <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> . PLEASE get help for yourself. You truly need more than this board can offer.

You seem to want only those who agree with you to respond. You don't have to have our permission to do or not do ANYTHING. But I for one, will not post anything less than my honest thoughts and feelings.

About your kids, You can kid yourself all you want by thinking that your kids are fine and not affected by all this. This affects them more than you obviously realize. I want to go back a few days to the remark by your son about going to the church
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">My older son, age 10, 5th grader is having a fit about going to dad's church - just got through telling me there are freaks there. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This tells me he has seen a lot in his short life. Because believe me, if you have been exposed to druggies/alcoholics you almost HATE them. I know.

One other thing, you probably do them exactly like you have been doing this board. Ask for opinions and advice and then get mad when it is not what you want to hear. If you were going to go to the church regardless (and I sure felt that your mind was made up before you posted) WHY then did you even ask him what he wanted to do. DO YOU LIKE TO HAVE THAT DONE TO YOU. At least, please quit doing this to your kids. Don't ask them what they want if you are not going to abide by their choice. You make the decision and tell them.

One last quote:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and over and over again, but expecting a different result.

-Albert Einstein-
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I am not saying divorce Jim, but DO SOMETHING DIFFERENT. What you have been doing is not working.

I don't mean this to hurt you at all. I just hope to make you think and quit taking the blame for everything.

DO SOMETHING DIFFERENT - what you have been doing for the last 10 years (+ or -) is not working. I honestly feel that if you kept a journal like the one poster said she had done, in 27 years it will read the same as it did for her. I have an idea, keep your journal on the computer, and you can just cut and paste from year to year or month to month.