Hi LIR I'm glad if I helped at all. I feel I have very little to offer except the lessons learned from my own mistakes. If that helps someone else refrain from making the same mistakes then I'm glad. My H moved out because I demanded answers, and now lives 150 miles away and only visits our 3 boys once a week for a few hours. This has dropped since he first left. If your H is living at home even if you don't meet any ENs for some reason you still have chance to attract him to a new calm you. Remain at peace and acting up beat and attractive.

Hope you have had a good day today/
Jante

Hi LIR, I hope you found some happiness today and that you are hopeful.
I feel hopeful for you and your M today, I was hoping YOU would give me a reason for that.
I think my mind works differently from my W's mind, at least she often says I am crazy, so I will just skip around and say what comes to me. If it doesn't make any sense, you can just agree with her that I really am crazy.

I feel like I have tried everything and failed. As long as you are trying, you have not failed. When Christ was here, he made very few converts personally, and he was killed. Did he fail? You need to re-define failure, it is not what you think. Oh, I know what you were saying, the M appears to be in a bad way, but I say again, as long as you are trying, you have not failed. It's really not over yet, and I hope you feel that when you read this. Even if your M was over, ( and it's NOT,) God is still there and he has good planned for you if you continue to seek him - I don't believe you can refute that. He didn't intend for you to come here and be miserable, he wants you to be happy and he is working to that end for you. You just need to go along with what he has planned for you. Didn't Christ say "Be of good cheer, I have over come the world." ( I don't have my bible, so I am quoting from memory, but I believe it's close.) That statement has to mean something to you. If he has overcome the world, and we look to him for help, we will get it. Going right along with that, he loves your H, and wants him to be happy too. He wants to help H learn how to meet your needs, so you both will be happy. H is kind of stubborn, so he needs a W that will help him along.

Remember the story of Peter. He was put in charge after Christ left the earth, but he was slow getting started. He claimed he would stay faithful but denied Christ three times on the night of his trial before the Jewish elders. Peter didn't really understand his commission (to lead the church) and after the betrayal, he went back to fishing. The resurrected Christ had to go the seashore and call him off the boat and start him going again. Peter was trained for 40 days after this, and then put in charge of the church of Christ on the earth at that time. He continued faithful to the end of his life after that.

I have wondered how Christ felt about Peter the night of the trial. Did he think " you better not fail me tonight, or I'll drop you and get someone else." Actually, he already knew that after all that happened, Peter would measure up in the end, so he taught him, and waited until Peter could do the work, then set him in charge and let him do it. Christ knew there would be many failures along the way.

In a way you are in the same place as Christ. I believe you have been give some sign that you have a very good chance of making things work. Right now, H is like Peter. " Before the c0ck crows, you will deny me thrice." Perhaps it will be 4, 5 or 10. Perhaps 7x70.

So I got scared and said I had run out of answers, and he just blew up at me. He said last week, before he took himself off to sleep alone "I don't hate you, I am just trying to stay friends through this." I thought he was saying he didn't love me anymore and just wanted to be friends. Another man/woman misunderstanding.
I can't always read what he is thinking, but you have come here and read enough to know that what they say, isn't always what is going to happen. Trust the messages you get from God, before you trust what you think H is saying. You have a more sure witness, trust it.
Along with that, H is helping around the house, and he says he is seeking counseling. He has habits that hurt, but he is showing signs of wanting to work on it.

I don't know if we can handle going out on a date. But I will try to get my head around to face a different direction.
You don't need to go and do something where you need to act happy when you are sad. Perhaps a school play? Are the children involved in sports, and you can both go and cheer? A concert? Theater? Is there something you both would enjoy so it is not a sacrifice for either of you?
See, he is thinking the same thing you are, he already asked you what to do, and you said you didn't know. It was in anger, not in kindness and it hurt you, but that's where you both are, and you know more than he does. If you have some hope, see if you can give some to him. I just figured a date would help. If you pick something you want to do anyway, it won't be so hard for you to go.
Like I told Jante, it's easy for me to say this stuff, I don't have to live it, but .......perhaps I'll give some more background.

See, I picture Heaven being like a family where everything is going like it should go. My W and I are in love, and we have a happy family ( most of the time. ) I had ( OK, she had to also) to do all this stuff for us to get where we are now. It is not a free ride. Every one of us that comes to this earth will have problems. We sometimes wish we could have someone else's, because it looks easier, but we have the ones that will produce the most growth in us, that's the way it works. God is producing growth in you, don't stop in the middle of a really big growth spurt.

I know he has loved me, its just that he never shows it when I need it - he doesn't and hasn't ever put himself out for me - he feels totally aggrieved by what I have said to him because he thinks that since he has supported his family completely for the last 9 years, that should be enough.
He shows it in the ways he is used to, the ways he wants it. How much does he know about EN's? I bet he has a long way to go, in fact, we know he does, or he would be doing things differently. He treats you the way his father treated his mother, at least that is the norm. As hard as I am working on it, as much as I know, I still slip back. How much harder is it for someone that doesn't know.

What I am unhappy with is his need to control and his withholding of love as a way of controlling. You have a right to be unhappy. For all I have said, you have feelings, and you can only take so much. He is human, but so are you. I hope you never feel trapped by what I say. I hope this is taken as encouragement, not as anything else. You still have to live things the way you are able to live them. ( J, that goes for you too.)

I know that this can only be addressed though counseling. OK, I'm off to draw my little pictures now - it does help to see things in black and white, sometimes.
W and I have turned the up and down cycle up hill. Our lows are not as low, our highs are higher. I want that for you, and everyone here on MB. I believe it can be that way for many. I believe you are one of that many.

Thanks for wishing me well, things are good most days at our house. I struggle also, but God is good to me, he always helps.

I think Jante wishes her H was still at home where she could work on him. Don't' let yours get away.

SS

<small>[ November 05, 2002, 05:36 PM: Message edited by: still seeking ]</small>

<small>[ March 22, 2005, 02:30 PM: Message edited by: Lady_In_Red ]</small>

Hi LIR yes SS is right I do wish H was still living at home. We have those flashes of eye contact shared joke etc but they are only available once a week, and its a long 6 days between for him to forget. Keep buildingon those positive moments, they will become secons, then miutes and eventually hours together.
Jante

I can really relate to what's being said here. My H will not give up contact with OW, but hasn't said he wants our marriage to end either. In our last R talk I LB'd big time to my H by saying I wish he would just try and work on our marriage. He was so mad and said "what do you think I've been trying to do!". I guess I just didn't see it..to me if he is still in contact, then he's not working on us, but maybe he is doing something in his own way. I think he's got a lot on his mind and is trying to figure out what he wants.

So maybe your H is really trying in own way to sort through this. It may not appear that he is trying, but I made the mistake of assuming my H wasn't and it really made him mad. Sometimes I guess they have to do things their own way...they don't want to be pushed or controlled, etc. At least with my H I know he is very sensitive to having someone pressure him.

LIR, this is the place where I believe you need to stick your neck out again.

This is absolutely true. H is very sad right now - still withdrawn from me - does not touch me, is not giving me vibes that he wants to resume contact yet, but actually made a joke and caught my eye today, and I smiled at his joke. He also washed all the dishes and hung out the washing - he NEVER used to do this. I watched him do this, and he looked so sad doing it, my heart felt like it would break.
This is where my W used to come to me and ( with love in her eyes) and say "I still love you, please don't turn away from me, please hold me." And I would melt, and we would begin to heal again.. Sometimes I would still turn away, but I knew how she felt, and I would always come back.

I wish so much that we could move on to the next stage and that he could accept the love I have for him, but I feel he is still so ANGRY!
Please realize that he probably feels the same but he thinks it is all your fault like you think it is mostly his. He may be waiting for you to change and apologize and I am also. Please hear me out. Remember that Christ didn't let Peter go, he kept forgiving him and teaching him. Peter was the one that made all the mistakes, but he was given more chances until he was ready. Christ never made any of the mistakes but he did all the work. If you had never had that dream, if you did not believe in prayer, if you had never felt stirrings of God making his will known in your heart, I wouldn't be here still telling you to try, but you have, and here we are. So I am asking you to be like Christ and extend your hand and your love even though your heart is breaking and you have felt you could do no more.

When you wish you could move to the next stage, I wonder if he wishes it also, but neither of you know how to do that, or what that stage looks like. I wish you would at least write him another note and tell him your feelings. I would like to see you tell him again that you love him, and want to understand him. I would like you for you to say that you want to be close to him again, not distant. If you can frame what the next stage looks like, I would suggest you communicate that to him ( again if you have done it once.)

He seems quite strained and sad - I am worried that he is resolved to leave and just is trying to figure out how to go about it.

You know him best, and he may be considering that. If so, why is he seeking counseling, and helping with the wash? It doesn't make sense to me. If he wanted to leave he ( If like me) would let you do everything, make himself scarce, have no contact with you. He is helping, and making jokes. To me this doesn't add up to him leaving. Am I off base here?

Perhaps he is sad for the same reasons you are sad. Perhaps he sees you and wonders if you are preparing to leave. There can be so much misunderstanding when there is no communication.

I can tell you that when I was hurting, it almost always came out as anger, that's just the way I reacted. I suspect he is hurt. Perhaps he has no right to be hurt, but that has never stopped me from being hurt sometimes.

Well, I am glad you are improving your self, and learning and growing. I sense in some ways you are feeling better and I don't feel that "dread" in your post today. I believe you and Jante ought to get to know each other better. I believe you have skills she can use, and she can help you too.

How are your sons doing in all this? Usually they can sense a problem. (and you have spoken to OS anyway) Are they OK?

SS

Later -
You know, I have read through this and it doesn't sound very loving and kind and I don't know how to make it sound better. I want so much for you to succeed and I worry about it, and I may not say things the right way, but please understand that I am really trying to help as best I can, I really think you can turn things around.

<small>[ November 07, 2002, 03:08 PM: Message edited by: still seeking ]</small>

<small>[ March 22, 2005, 02:32 PM: Message edited by: Lady_In_Red ]</small>

<small>[ March 22, 2005, 02:35 PM: Message edited by: Lady_In_Red ]</small>

Hi LIR

I was wondering how you were. You seem a little more positive than your last posts. As I say, you may feel lonely, but not alone <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

I am glad you thought my suggestion may help. I always say I know nothing about anything anymore!! Why not just ask you H - let him go first, say "I know you think I interupt you, and I don't mean to, but it would mean a lot to me if you could tell me how you're feeling and if there's anything I can do to help". Maybe start with just half an hour and tell him, you'll make no comment throughout or after. And stick to it (I always find that hard, because inevitable I want the last word).

You interest me in that you talk alot about the mistakes you have made, how you have been too demanding, could have learnt to deal with things in a different way. Well, can I just say that if your H is continuing contact, is it any wonder you want answers and are demanding!!!! Is it any wonder if he has made no commitment to NC and your M after 18 months that you get angry and hurt. LIR, I know you have tried your absolute hardest, but peeerleeese - you've made some minor mistakes in comparison to the bigger picture. OK, maybe these mistakes have affected your H, but seriously, if you were sure he had NC and was committed to you and your M, I think things would be very different. Do not be hard on yourself - you have done marvellously well! Remind yourself of all the good and positive things you have done.

Me, well H went off to Germany yesterday for his first stint. We had 2 rows last week, one culminating in him saying, "If that's how you feel, why don't you f*** off and have an A", and me (not clever) replying "Oh why don't you F*** off back to Germany - forgot you are aren't you" - funny, but not clever. He is still adamant we do not have a future. I don't think we have much hope.

Take care of yourself and thinking of you in rainy London.

Lisa

LIR: You bring up a good point of something I don't think I am doing well....acknowledging him for things he is doing to work on us. I think I need to pay more attention to his actions to see these things and not dwell on the fact that he is still in contact. I know there are lots of little things...he will email me little things at work....like someone gave him a tootsie roll or something...he doesn't have to email me this, but he does...I guess that shows he is thinking about me while at work. And when we cuddle together and watch tv at nite...I guess he doesn't have to do that, but he does...maybe his way of trying are just smaller things than I would expect, but I need to acknowledge and show my appreciation that they are there.

I agree that the M needs the NC to survive....I just hope I can plan A well enough to encourage this. I think I'm close to having my H agree to joint counseling again together. I know we need this to find out why the A started and how to prevent it from happening again.
I hope yours does agree to that soon as well...its sounds like you also need to find out how to prevent this in the future and how to meet EN's. It does feel like it's doomed for failure if he refuses to commit to NC. I think my H is deep in the fog now and so patience and time are going to play into this for me.

It is very hard! Sometimes it's like I need to think about everything I am saying before I say it. I try to look for the positives....I think you talked about some joking in the kitchen and little things that made you feel good. I try to remember and focus on the little things and ignore the negatives. It's hard when sometimes there aren't as many little things...I just have to think at least he is trying...it may be baby steps for him but its something.

I try to find positives every day and that helps to keep me going when it seems so hopeless....

Lisa,
I have been thinking about this.
He is still adamant we do not have a future. I don't think we have much hope.

It's not soon enough to be thinking about no hope. Repent !!!

Actually, this (on my part) may be a disrespectful judgment. It is hard to have hope when you have fights like that. Remember that many of the people on this site that reconciled have said this themselves or had spouses that said it. It doesn' mean much yet.

Send him a mail and apoligize - you can say many things that will help even if you are sure you were right and he was wrong.

1. You are sorry for the arguement ( you are, I can tell.)
2. Sorry that hateful things were said ( you wish he hadn't said them, at least)
3. Wish things were better ( isn't that the truth)

Just a few kind words can undo much hurt and pain.

Lisa, it is good to hear about how you are doing and It seems like your attitude is still mostly good. I am glad for that, keep working on things.

SS

<small>[ November 08, 2002, 01:42 PM: Message edited by: still seeking ]</small>

LIR,
I will let you think for awhile, I have been hitting you pretty hard for a few days.

I wish I was a quick wit and could come up with some thought that would cheer you up for the weekend, but since I am almost as old as 2long, I am pretty slow. ( that's supposed to be a joke, see how bad I am getting.)

Best wishes for a happy weekend -

SS

LIR just popping into say hi,I know things seem tough but hang on- read the poem on my thread.
Jante

<small>[ March 22, 2005, 02:38 PM: Message edited by: Lady_In_Red ]</small>

You said you couldn't do dates, and you did one anyway !!!

This is what I had in mind, things you can be together for, but not have to entertain each other. I recommend you keep it up. I know this one was a gift, but perhaps that will give you more hope. Thanks for the report, I can't see much for me to coment on except to say "good job"

Now is where you leave him a note that says " thank you so much for the time you spent with me last night ( or whenever it was) I enjoyed it so much, - and insert your own love note here."
You know, things like " it made me feel in love again to spend time with you" or something to that effect. You could do it much better, I am sure.

You sound better, I am glad. Keep it up.

SS

<small>[ March 22, 2005, 02:42 PM: Message edited by: Lady_In_Red ]</small>

Hi LIR,

I still say he is showing signs of being in love and wanting things to work. His waiting for you outside shows this. ( at least in my mind.)

I am in the retail business so may not post much between now and Christmas. However, now that I have said that, I will probably post anyway, just because.

Reading your post, ( and it's a recurring theme) I can see you have some hope, but you still have hurt and pain. I know time will take some of this away, but I still worry. I think I can see ways for you two to make it work, but it will take just that, work. I was reading last night some quotes on marriage and one of them was about how marriage would be work no matter who you married, and anyone who thinks other wise is badly mistaken. I would have to agree. When you get feeling down, remember that SS has bad days too, but they always pass and turn into good ones if I follow God's rules for marital problem solving.

I believe you are doing a lot of good for Jante, I hope you know how wise you are and how much you help others when you have time to post to them. You really have a lot on the ball, even if you wonder about it sometimes. If you don't believe me, ask your sons.

Still praying for you, I say I worry, but I am not as fearful, if that makes sense.

SS

Hi LIR- hope your silence means things are going well for you
Jante

<small>[ March 22, 2005, 02:42 PM: Message edited by: Lady_In_Red ]</small>

<small>[ March 22, 2005, 02:47 PM: Message edited by: Lady_In_Red ]</small>