LIR I can see lots of positive in that conversation and qwish that in the past I had had as positive one with my H.
I know its hard but he is still living with you and says hes willing to try and work on the M. Thats more than my H has said in the last 2 years. I hope you have a good nights sleep and enjoy the movie tomorrow night. Hold onto the words God has given you.
Jante

Wow !
Wow!
Hi LIR.

I intended to post to you last night, but did not make the time. I am going to read your last two over a few times and then see If I have anything to say. Right now we may not be much help - but you seem to be doing well. ( the advisor you are using now knows much more than I do anway.) I am impressed, I really am.

I hope you can stay at this level for a while yet because it looks like you are on a roll. I wish H was doing as well as you are.
I remember the story of a man who was looking for God and he remarked to a friend of his that he couldn't seem to find him. The friend said he thought he could help and took him to a pond and down into the water. Then without warning he pushed the mans head under the water and held it down. It being a complete suprise he fought for air and finally was let up and took big gasps of air. When recovered he asked his friend how this was supposed to help him in his quest for god. The reply was " when you want to find God as much as you wanted air just now, you will find him."

If your H wanted the marriage to work that badly, it would work. If feels like you are getting it, I wish he was.

There is one more gift you could give him, but I under stand your reservations.

Well, I sure say a lot for someone that is just checking in and coming back later. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

I think about some of you a great deal, I wish I could help more.

SS

It sounds like your H is making a small effort. Maybe not what you deserve, but it is an upturn.

He's trying to schedule some Recreation with you- that's good. He's going to counseling.

Have you bought His Needs, Her Needs by Harley. It reminds me alot of the list your H asked you about.

One thought about such lists- Harley advises to always try to frame things positively, not negatively. He told us this when we were in counseling with him. Be very specific- his explanation is that the needs list should be a guidebook or road map to how to make you happy. Both spouses need to follow these rules when writing up their needs.

"I love making love with you. I'd love to do it several times a week" NOT

"We never have sex. You show no interest in me. We haven't had sex in six months!"

"I like it when you're involved with YS. He really enjoys time with his dad- he loves it when you ask about his schoolwork, do special projects with him." NOT

"You're never there for YS. The poor kid is brokenhearted that you never pay him any attention."

When the spouses review their needs list together, each spouse can then give feedback. They tell their spouse what they are willing to do without resentment.

For example,
he asks for sex 5 times a week, she says she'll be comfortable twice a week.

or

she wants him to tuck in the kids 7 nights a week, he says I can do it 3 times a week.

But then each spouse is responsible to follow through, to the point of scheduling those promises.

<small>[ March 22, 2005, 02:48 PM: Message edited by: Lady_In_Red ]</small>

LIR

I just wanted to drop in quickly to let you know I had caught up with your posts.

Firstly, I am sorry that it is the anniversary of your SIL death, and how hard this must be. I hope that with time you will be able to remember only the good things about her, and celebrate her life, rather than the sadness in her death.

I think it is very positive that your H wanted to talk to you about your R. Whilst it left many questions and more to be said, this is truly a good thing. If you can, I think you should thank him for giving you both the chance to have a "chat", as "I know how difficult this all is, but it was good to be able to talk to you honestly, openly and without anger". Yes, getting to MC seems to be a stumbling block for a number of us...

One thing I picked up on particularly was that you said "I can see the positives in my H's reactions, too - but I am also skeptical - I see his depression and unwillingness to try more than just a little and then call it "trying a lot". " This is very similar to what my H says - I'm not trying at all. I think I am trying given our situaiton and what is happening. H wants something more/else. Can you say to your H, "yes you are trying I know, but I would really like it if you could do X" Nothing too major or big, but something specific.

Just a thought, and thinking of you and wishing you well from London.

Lisa

LIR,
I believe you are doing a good job of things. There is some positive and some negative in the way you describe things.

The positive is that he is willing to have R talks, without getting angry, the negative is that he may be spending time on the net and may be in contact with OW, also that he things he has been putting major effort into things when you think not.

If it would do any good, tell him the story about the man in the pond and then tell him you would like both of you to work that hard on it for about a year.
Be prepared to tell him what working that hard would feel like

Regular time together alone. ( dates)
No contact with OW.
Sharing goals and helping each other work on them. ( includes self improvement, finances, etc, you could probably come up with about 10 really fast.)
Being partners in all facets of your marriage. And this means full partners, not having one as a non voting partner, or a limited partner, or a silent partner.
Bring passion back.
Sharing the same bed, and see above.
Seek MC.
Respect each others opinions and feelings, no anger.
Lust for each other ( hey, sometimes it's good.)

and, like that.
You could do it in a letter, but your skills are improving and you probably won't LB in conversation. Anyway, we once spoke of the next level, and this could be how to advance.

Sometimes you sound positively happy, I hope it's real, not acting. Suspect it is.

You are getting lots of good suggestions, It's nice to see you have so many real friends. The people coming by now are not the ones that come to do damage control for a new member. These are the ones that really know you, and love you and want you to succeed and be happy.

I worry about Jante right now. Pray for her.

And Lisa, I pray for you too, even if you don't !

SS

LEAVING THE CITY OF REGRET

I had not really planned on taking a trip this time of year, and yet, I found myself packing rather hurriedly. This trip was going to be unpleasant and I knew in advance that no real good would come of it. I'm talking about my annual "Guilt Trip".

I got tickets to fly there on "WISHIHAD" airlines. It was an extremely short flight. I got my baggage, which, I could not check. I chose to carry it myself all the way. It was weighted down with a thousand memories of what might have been.

No one greeted me as I entered the terminal to the Regret City International Airport. I say international because people from all over the world come to this dismal town. As I checked into the Last Resort Hotel, I noticed that they would be hosting the year's most important event, the Annual Pity Party.

I wasn't going to miss that great social occasion. Many of the towns leading citizens would be there. First, there would be the Done family, you know, Should Have, Would Have and Could Have. Then came the I Had family. You probably know ol' Wish and his clan. Of course, the Opportunities would be present, Missed and Lost. The biggest family would be the Yesterday's. There are far too many of them to count, but each one would have a very sad story to share. Then Shattered Dreams would surely make an appearance. And It's Their Fault would regale us with stories (excuses) about how things had failed in his life, and each story would be loudly applauded by Don't Blame Me and I Couldn't Help It.

Well, to make a long story short, I went to this depressing party knowing that there would be no real benefit in doing so. And, as usual, I became very depressed. But as I thought about all of the stories of failures brought back from the past, it occurred to me that all of this trip and subsequent "pityparty" could be canceled by ME!

I started to realize that I did not have to be there. I didn't have to be depressed. One thing kept going through my mind, "I can't change yesterday, but I do have the power to make today a wonderful day".

I can be happy, joyous, fulfilled, encouraged, as well as encouraging. Knowing this, I left the city of Regret immediately and left no forwarding address.

Am I sorry for the mistakes I've made in the past? YES! But there is no physical way to undo them.

So, if you are planning a trip to the city of Regret, please cancel all your reservations now.

Instead, take a trip to a place called Starting Again. I liked it so much that I have now taken up permanent residence there. My neighbors, the I Forgive Myself and the New Starts are so very helpful.

By the way, you don't have to carry around heavy baggage, because the load is lifted from your shoulders upon arrival. You too, can find this new town, ust ask the Lord to show you the way. Now I live on ICANDOIT street.

<small>[ March 22, 2005, 02:50 PM: Message edited by: Lady_In_Red ]</small>

Hi LIR,

I came home feeling great - I am appreciated, I have friends, and I have something to do with myself! I told H and he seemed pleased.
We have been trying to tell you that all along. I am glad you understand. At least I am right about something. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Finally he stormed out - I made the mistake of saying "Well, you are sounding angry," and he then DID get angry - he said "I'm NOT angry - some people when they get angry, scream and yell and get violent, but I am NOT doing that!" and he left the room with some force.

I probably would have laughed out loud when he said he was not angry. I don't know how you exercised so much control.

It sounds like you have a good understanding of what is going on, but I still hurt for the bad parts. I see why you don't want to give him any more information. He doesn't want it, and if you are right, he is looking for an out. I am glad you keep giving him chances, I wish he would take one of them. I can't understand myself why men insist on being right, it makes us look so foolish sometimes.
I cried for a few minutes and then picked myself up and went to bed.
I don't think God is going to be very happy with men who hurt when they should be protecting and caring for their wives. I hope I can repent long before the day I report in, I hope your H can too. I want to get to the point where I look foreword to that interview, not dread it.

LIR, you are doing just right, but I still pray for you, because you need and deserve happiness, not just control in these bad spots. I believe if you can continue, that happiness will come to you.

SS

<small>[ November 21, 2002, 10:53 AM: Message edited by: still seeking ]</small>

Are you afraid?

Hi LIR,

Well your H's 'ultimatum' incident rang a very strong bell way out here in CA. ..... just went through the same myself.

Yep that boundary thingy sure does stir up the pot! Had a similar conversation with H this weekend..... U know what I was doing? Helping one of his sisters and her family deal with her 'suicide attempts'. She was just released from the hospital and I kept H informed and even asked how long I could stay and help.... then he got mad at me for it!!!! Believe that. Accused me of helping his family more than caring for him..

Well while that could have been true in the past, I tearfully reminded him that I have been spending time with him and he knew it. Just tried to put the blame on me. Then he had to eat his words and the next day he came and apologized.

My point is that sometimes, it takes them a while to figure out they have made a stupid move. Can't push it in their face, just let them hear themselves.

I shed quite a few tears this weekend and being so near d/d made it worse. But I kept to my boundaries and told him if he didn't like what he was hearing, there was the door. I even started making arrangements for son and I. He quickly stopped and said no he wants us to be together, so I told him that I have a new boundary (see they don't get less with his tantrums, they get more). My new boundary was not to have to deal with his tirades. He was going to have to learn to communicate better. Hm.... what was once viewed as an 'ultimatum' now became a BS need. He has agreed to comply.

Just wanted to share and hope some of this info is helpful.

take care,
L.

<small>[ March 22, 2005, 02:51 PM: Message edited by: Lady_In_Red ]</small>

<small>[ March 22, 2005, 02:52 PM: Message edited by: Lady_In_Red ]</small>

^bump^

Dear LIR,

Good to hear from you. Well you want to flush the rat out from being under foot..... gotta set the bait and trap.

How? Well you could raise doubts with your H by questioning the friend's reputation. Similar to what you see going on with BILs OW person.

You know some guys will act jealous to have some sort of control....... what is this friend's gender preference? On the other hand, what is this person being told from your H?

Confusion reigns unless your H gets the right support or he learns to fix it himself.

As for boundaries vs ultimatums. I see it as a vast difference. Why? Boundaries are set to protect the family. Ultimatums are given for the other person. At times their paths cross but when they do, safety vs personal preference takes priority. Not a question.

My H, his mom, sister and grandfather all have these 'ultimatum' issues. What I have learned is not to back off from them but raise the stakes even higher. He doesn't want me touching his stuff or giving ultimatums..... ok, I will put on gloves and throw his stuff out and make boundaries with the assistance of the police if necessary. It is all a matter of safety over personal perference. I will not compromise in that manner.

In time even my MIL and H have recognized how foolish this utlimatum jargon sounds when someone else is babbling it. You can use your BILs sitch to help drive that point home. It is amazing how WS' can see so clearly when others are messing up but be so blind to what they are doing.

JMHO,
L.

<small>[ March 22, 2005, 02:53 PM: Message edited by: Lady_In_Red ]</small>

<small>[ March 22, 2005, 02:54 PM: Message edited by: Lady_In_Red ]</small>

Hi LIR,
I don't know if there is much I can do for you right now, but I am here praying for you. I feel you have understanding of what needs to happen, and I feel you are doing what you need to do and doing it correctly.

I wish there were some better way to communicate the respect I have for your willingness to do this work under such difficult circumstances. Keep it up!
SS

Wow LIRs,

Great job!!! Good work! So you may have stumbled on a communication technique....

Backgammon and a glass of wine!!! LOL!

Guys like strategic games (helps keep them focused) and the wine helps calm the nerves. JMHO of course! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

He wrote all this stuff down? Well you know that now it is doubly impressed in his mind via hearing and writing and it was his idea. Good.

Now he still said he wasn't interested in saving the marriage? That's ok, they all say that. The one constant thing is that the WS are known for changing their mind. The BS tends to change their tactics but not their goal (until all the LB $$ runs out). So given this routine, don't panic if he says more stuff like that. My WS told me that he 'could' get used to living with the OW..... OUCH! I finally got the strength to tell him....' then what you waiting for...go ahead, be happy, then miserable, then happy, then miserable...... it's all your choice. Just give us what you owe and get far far away from me. re: I can't stand a fickle man and certainly don't want to play your silly A games.'

Keep up the good work. You did fine.

take care,
L.

<small>[ March 23, 2005, 01:30 PM: Message edited by: Lady_In_Red ]</small>