LIR,
I have has similar experiences to what you report. Most come in my heart, or my mind, but I have had similar to yours, and I feel strongly that yours is very real and you need to find out more about it. Be careful, and be prayerful, you already know God cares about you and will help you.

Remember that your heart is changed from the moment you read that e-mail and you will have a hard time not showing that change, if it can be done at all.
Before you read it, you seemed to be fully committed to M. Now you don't know what to do, and your whole countenance would tend to show it. I am pretty transparent, and everyone at my house can tell if I am worried about something. You should decide what you will say if he notices something, perhaps honesty would be best, but think about it and know what you will do before hand. You may not think it will make any difference, but it will.

Honesty about this would also tell you some of what you wish to know about how H feels. That is, if he agrees with buddy or if he leans to giving what you want and need.

Some other things to remember.
You have shown you can do a great deal more than you thought you could do. You will be all right when you come out the other end of this.

Take care of your health. Everyone needs you, sorry but it can't be helped. Take care of yourself get enough rest and continue to eat right.

I always want to comment on everything, but it's probably best if I stop now.

I don't really know if you need time to think, you have thought of almost every way this could go and what you would do. Pray some more and see what way you need to take it. Meanwhile, I'll be praying for you, and we all care. Perhaps caring is not enough this time, but it's true, we do care.

SS

Thank you ss -

I hear you - I'm going to hang on a little more - more thoughts have come to me -

Last night, I brought up the prospect of separation again, and although it was an uncomfortable conversation, H again reiterated his desire for joint counselling. So we closed with the agreement that we needed to get joint counselling for the sake of the family. This morning we kissed each other goodbye as I left for work.

Its true - my emotions always show, even though I try to hide them - and last night, I also nearly lost it when I got home to a dirty house and dirty kitchen at 10pm.

But I will keep trying. My friends and family are supporting me well and you are all a Godsend to me. I appreciate it so much.

Will be in touch soon - no time to post at length now.

God bless,
LIR

Usually when I post to you, I feel strongly what I should say.

I don't have an agenda today, so I will just check in and say I am still praying for you and your family.

I also have two off topic questions for you.
1. If you are able, with out giving anything away. Where did you get Odile?
( that's from memory, did I spell it right?)
2. What prompted your other thread on winter dress, was it something H said recently, or was it collected thoughts over some months?

Just my curosity, don't answer if your time remains so short.

Mostly wanted you to know that we are thinking about you and care what happens to you.

SS

Hello ss -

I am just on for a few minutes - I have a busy day today, but tomorrow I should be able to find some time to post more. Thank you for your message - and thank you for keeping me in your prayers.

I have to admit that I am in a place of "letting go", but more on that tomorrow. In our "real" life, we have been polite to each other, and I do feel that H is sincere about wanting joint counselling. I am willing to go, but I don't hold out much hope to be honest - I think its more that he wants me to go, so that he can change my mind and get me to come around to seeing life from his point of view - in other words, try to convince me that having EAs (he doesn't call them that) is a reasonable thing for him to have. He wants to stay married, but he wants his other passionate relationships as well - he wants to stay married for the sake of the children and because he gets a good deal out of this - a wife who takes care of all the domestic chores for him, without demanding anything emotionally.

Not for me, I'm afraid.

Well, to answer your questions - "odile" is a family name - I have Southern roots - in Alabama and Louisiana.

And my question on winter clothes was prompted by my thoughts over the years, and my insecurity about how to look nice in the winter. Also, even though I have made changes in my appearance, at present, my H shows no physical interest in me at all. The other morning, I was dressing, and he turned away and left the room with no comment - even when he was with OW1 and OW2, he still showed SOME interest in me. Now there is nothing. Perhaps he is afraid to approach me now because I have rejected him, but it feels like more than that. It genuinely feels like the chemistry we always had is gone. And a lot of the suggestions that came to me on my thread, are things I already do.

However, I did go out and buy a pair of black leather boots!! LOL And I am going to start wearing more skirts with them. I basically live in nice close-fitting jeans, boots and turtlenecks - and I'm not overweight, but I guess I do tend to wear the same thing all the time - a bit boring, maybe.

I haven't been able to answer yet on that thread but am going to - because I loved all the answers, and they were great suggestions, which made me laugh!!

Have to go now.

Take care,
LIR

I don't have any real fears for you. No "bad vibes" as they say. Just wanted to check in so you would know people care about you.

I have thought again through what I know about you and I am pretty sure you will make correct decisions and that you will be OK. Just wish it were sooner rather than later.

My W asked the other day how you were doing, and I said I didn't know but that I was worried that you were tired and needed a rest. She also asked why you picked this user name, and I said I didn't have a clue, but the harder I think ( I have to be careful when I think, so I don't break anything) the more I remember you saying something about it, but that was more than 2 days ago, so I can't remember exactly what.

As I said, just checking in. She really did ask about you, not making that up.

SS

Thanks for checking in with me ss -

You're right - I am OK. And please thank your wife from me for being concerned. I appreciate it.

I am thinking of starting a new thread called "babysteps" depending on what pans out here.

First of all, I had my counselling session last night and my counselor (who is the senior R counselor in the practice) has come forward with a proposal to counsel both of us. She has offered my H 2 sessions with him on his own before we start together, or he can come in 2 weeks time and start together, cold. She thinks he should come alone twice, to be able to tell "his side" and so she can start to build a R with him. I do trust her - she said I would have to be able to trust her that she would keep my confidences and not divulge anything that I have told her, and I do.

So I put this to my H, and today he said he would like to do this. Very positive step. Thumbs up.

But, trying to be realistic here, I am disturbed, but not surprised, at the evidence I uncovered that he is involved in some way in EA3. I have "felt" that something was going on somewhere for quite some time. I have tried to see the good signs, but I have also seen a lot of the same behaviour as when he was involved with OW1 and OW2. I would define it as an awareness of his absence, and the fact that his mood yo-yos for no apparent reason - certainly what I do seems to have little effect. For example, I told you that he simply turned away when he saw me dressing. The next day he was flirtatious. I have responded to his flirting, and yesterday, I dressed up in my new clothes and boots. But when I came home from work yesterday, he was aloof, and didn't make eye contact, in fact, spent most of his time with his back to me in some way and avoided touching me. This is a man who is hiding something. So why is he going to counselling? Just so he can say he tried everything and it didn't work? I don't know, I'm trying not to be pessimistic, but I am going into this with low expectations.

What do I feel? I would have to say that I have reached a point of letting go. I feel that if he is out there binging from woman to woman and pouring out his heart to one after the other, and getting emotionally attached to one after the other, that he is obviously looking for something I haven't been able to provide for him in our R - something he powerfully feels that he needs. I have admitted the things I did and said which damaged the feelings he had for me, but it has not been enough for him. I genuinely do not want to hold him to what for him must be a very unfulfilling R, so I am ready to let him go.

I cannot live with him if he is going to carry on an intimate emotional R with someone else, and I know that he is capable of this. Would you lie in bed at night next to your wife, knowing that when they woke up in the morning, the first person they thought of and wanted to see or talk to, was another man, and then stand by while she ran to the computer to e-mail him, asking how he slept, what he dreamed of in the night, and then told him her plans for the following day? How can one live like that? I can't. Today, he was gone when I came home from work - the car was gone, the house was locked up - usually he goes out on his bicycle and he is home when I get home. I didn't know where he was, so I showed up at school to make sure someone was there to get YS. He turned up as usual, and said "I didn't say I wouldn't be here, did I?" It was amicable, but he didn't say where he was, either. Later in the afternoon, I fished a little - I said I thought he usually taught in town on this day. He said he had taught. If he taught in town he would have used his bicycle - he is constantly going on at me about using up too much petrol for short journeys. So he went somewhere outside of town, and he has no pupils outside of town. This is the kind of thing I mean. Its what he refuses to say, doesn't say, that is significant - not what he does say.

I don't want to live with someone I cannot trust, who doesn't consider what he does when I am not with him, or his thoughts and feelings to be any of my business. I can't figure out why he wants to be married.

Well, I also know the kind of stress he has been under the last few years, and I have made mistakes and said things that were very hurtful to him - blown up out of frustration at things he did and said. So I am trying to remain loyal to him, despite his shabby treatment of me, hoping that he will eventually see "sense". But I really have very little love left to work with here, and very little hope.

What I think would be constructive is if I could spend the next two weeks trying to come up with something positive to say in our first MC session. So that's what I'm trying to think about.

In my life, I also have some serious things going on at home - in America. I talked to my both my dad and my stepmother tonight, and my dad has decided to quit drinking, after passing out in the hot tub on Saturday night. It was a traumatic scene (although Dad and I laughed about it a little - I could see the funny side of it - waking up surrounded by firemen and paramedics stark naked, with his wife screaming hysterically next to him). It was NOT funny for my stepmother, who has lived with him for 33 years - with him drinking - and I wouldn't be laughing either if he had drowned, which he easily could have. If it had been me in her shoes, I also would have been screaming hysterically. He swam (excuse the pun) in and out of consciousness and she was not strong enough to lift him out of the water - she started screaming and pretty soon the neighbours came over (they have a key) - by then my dad had lost consciousness, and it took the 6'5" neighbour all his strength to haul my dad out of the water. The emergency crews came, and my dad regained consciousness - but he said he didn't want them to take him to X hospital ER because he is the former chief of staff there (spent his whole career there) and everybody knows him - he insisted they take him somewhere where no-one would know him. That is REALLY embarassing! Dad hit rock bottom Saturday night and he knows it. Stepmother cried hysterically on the phone to me tonight because she said she thought he was dying and she got a taste of what it would be like to lose him. That decided it for her. She said she told him he quits drinking, empties the house of all his booze and comes to the family Al-anon meetings she attends or she leaves and she has her plans all set about where she would go and who she would live with, how she would survive financially - she's 55, so it wouldn't be easy for her. She said it was seeing him lying there, thinking he was dying that did it for her - she realized she would have to go on without him if he did die, and she knew she could. She couldn't continue to live with him like this, so she knew she would be able to leave him. She wasn't going to stay living with him and watch him die like that - if she hadn't been there and he'd gone in the hot tub alone, he would be dead now. She cried on the phone to me and said she had gone to bed angry for 30 years and waked up every morning angry for 30 years and she didn't want me to live like she had. She also cried and told me she was sorry for everything and realizes she has made a lot of mistakes. Now, my SM was the OW and she broke up our family, but my dad, like my H, made the choices he did. Their affair was a mutual obsession which had profound effects for my father's children. But I recognize that my SM has come a long way in 30 years, and I have watched my dad drink for 30 years. I do not think, that whatever their history, that she is in any way responsible for his drinking. And I respect her willingness to grow and the real caring she has for him. I believe they are going to make it. I think she has finally found the courage to set strong boundaries. And my dad has chosen to be with her rather than the bottle. I told him I admired his courage, his honesty, and that I was glad he felt he could tell me about this himself.

My dad's drinking and their co-dependent R, have a lot to do with why my judgement towards people is clouded. So I am heartened to see this finally happen. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

I'm really drained after all this, so I'm signing off now. Thank you so much, everyone, and you ss - you are a good person - you've been a great comfort to me.

God bless,
LIR

Hi LIR,
I have read through this ( your last post) - I lost count now, but it's more than twice. I was just going to say "good job, keep it up." but I think I will comment on some things also.
First, good job, keep it up. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />
I believe your thinking is correct. I know all we get is your thoughts, but you present them in a clear manner, and you seem to include the most important points. I believe you are accurate in what you believe is going on.

I am going to bring up some things - not because I disagree with you, but because I am trying to train you to always think of things from more than one side. When you get so you can look from both sides it will be easier to know what is going on, and not make errors in judgment.

For example, I told you that he simply turned away when he saw me dressing. The next day he was flirtatious.
I pay close attention when my W is dressing - most of the time. If I have something else big going on, sometimes I don't even notice. I know you believe it may be the next OW. It could also just be a difficult student, or fear of his job ending, or something else important to him that is causing him stress. Remember that I agree with you, based on everything else you said, but it happens at our house too, and we are in love.

I have responded to his flirting, and yesterday, I dressed up in my new clothes and boots. But when I came home from work yesterday, he was aloof, and didn't make eye contact, in fact, spent most of his time with his back to me in some way and avoided touching me. This is a man who is hiding something. So why is he going to counselling? Just so he can say he tried everything and it didn't work? I don't know, I'm trying not to be pessimistic, but I am going into this with low expectations.
There couild be many more reasons. What if he wants to make the M work but is having a hard time giving up his habbit? What if he knows things are not right but can't bring himself to admit that to you, so he seeks counseling as a way to get through it?

Now, from all you say, his actions are consistant with your thoughts on this, but we always need to look at the other sides until we know for sure. I believe you are wise to have low expetations. I think we can be optimistic and have low expectations at the same time. Do you believe that?

What do I feel? I would have to say that I have reached a point of letting go. I feel that if he is out there binging from woman to woman and pouring out his heart to one after the other, and getting emotionally attached to one after the other, that he is obviously looking for something I haven't been able to provide for him in our R - something he powerfully feels that he needs.
All of us lack in some areas. Perhaps at one time, this may have been about you, but it is no longer. You are trying to address the problems and fix them. If he won't help you, you will not be able to fix it on your own. From reading the e-mail from "buddy" and then thinking about your comments, I believe in this case it could be exactly what you said. He wants a marrige to take care of his basic needs while he finds excitement in the world. A cake eater - like many others we have read about. That's not to say that if he makes some adjustments and love comes back as it once was ( or even better) that he wouldn't give the cake up. That's the part we don't know, isn't it. What will happen now? That's what is hurting your heart so much. Everything in the past you can deal with, but what will the future bring?

Would you lie in bed at night next to your wife, knowing that when they woke up in the morning, the first person they thought of and wanted to see or talk to, was another man, and then stand by while she ran to the computer to e-mail him, asking how he slept, what he dreamed of in the night, and then told him her plans for the following day? How can one live like that? I can't
As I think on what has happened in my life, that is the way it was with us. She retreated from my anger into another world. Not OM, but her thoughts were not of me. Her wakeing thougths were on her plans for the day, her projects, her children. I never entered into them, at least not her happy thoughts. I did more and more drastic things to get her attention ( in anger, which is never good.) So, I believe I understand what you are feeling - at least to some extent. Now she smiles in her sleep, and murmers my name. Yes, I agree with you, marriage is not meant to be that way. And no, I could not live with it either.

I could comment on everything, but you already got a big preachy post from me a few weeks ago, so I'll leave some things unsaid today.

What I think would be constructive is if I could spend the next two weeks trying to come up with something positive to say in our first MC session. So that's what I'm trying to think about. Yes, go over the positive things in your realationship. What you like about him, what you used to like about him that is missing ( cuddeling, sex, whatever.) and what you need.
When you discuss any of them , keep it about how it makes you feel.
Here is an example of how I would do the latter . ( are you tired of this ? I can quit if you are.)

"It makes me feel secure that he earns a living for our family. I am glad of that, it makes me happy."

"We used to be so in love, and we would date, and go out for dinner. That made me feel loved and wanted, so I loved and wanted him too. Now the dates are not as often, and I don't feel so loved, and it is hard for me to want to express love when I don't feel it."

"One of the things that would help me is to share in the decisiions on what we do with the money. I am so afraid we won't have enough to go around, it is a constant fear, always in my mind, and it creates a lot of stress for me. I never know where we are, what will get paid, what won't.

Now, that last one isn't exactly what you are worried about, but I hope it shows my point, which is to keep it about you and your feelings, and not about him and what he does, or does not do.

Everything that has to do with "buddy, or OP can be said the same way.
":I have a fear that he is giving some of his attention to another person. I need re-assurance that he is not becuause my emotions can't take that and have me still stay in the marriage. I need him to help me here so I can begin to trust and heal."
If your counciler is good, she will ask what things you need help with and you can bring up some specific things he can do to help you trust him again. Telling you where he is, where he is going, when he will get back etc.

If he denies any past problem and won't discuss how he can help you, then I don't believe you will be able to acomplish your goal with counseling. I suppose you need to go that first time to see. I also encourage you to brace yourself for what he will say. If his motive is not reconcilation, he may try and make you look bad with what he says, and he will probalby accuse you of being controling. At that point you would need proof, like the e-mail to OW that you printed. I would expect at that point that he would get angry and storm out. Remember, this is worst case, but you need to prepare for both.

Perhaps I kind of got off track today. Counseling is still up in theair, and weeks away.

My dad's drinking and their co-dependent R, have a lot to do with why my judgement towards people is clouded. So I am heartened to see this finally happen.
No one that I know is perfect. So we could say that we can't ever trust ANYONE not to hurt us. HOWEVER, we do come to trust that they don't do it on purpose, and that they help more than they hurt. You are learning and healing as you go, and we all do that. I really do want you to have faith in yourself. It needs to come from within, so me saying things won't help as much as your own improvements and knowledge that you are doing the best you can.
Just for the record, I do believe you are doing the best you can.

I am glad that your father had the courage to seek help. I hope this turns into a success for all of your family.
Long enough, I had best quit. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

SS

<small>[ January 23, 2003, 04:20 PM: Message edited by: still seeking ]</small>

Hi there!

I am feeling better today - had a passionate night with H, for the first time in months, which has made me feel better about the prospects for our future together. I felt loved, not used, so it has helped me see that we still have love to give to each other, and he still values me.

I'm not sure why this happened - H was away the night before on business - I am sure he was where he told me he was. And he is starting a new project at work, which I think is giving him more to do - so he has something positive to feel good about.

I also went out to lunch yesterday with an old, mutual friend - he is 65, and has a lot in common with my H - both have busy careers in the arts - he has 3 sons, now all grown. I confided in him, and he told me about how his own marriage broke up, in some ways suffering the same strains as our marriage, although when it came crunch time for them, there was no 3rd party. He put a very strong case to me not to do anything precipitous and said once you divorce, you cannot turn the clock back. He encouraged me to give us both space, even if it meant us letting go and partially moving out for several days a week. He said I needed to get on with what I wanted to do with my life regardless, and if I did that, I would feel better about myself. He said that we both needed to give each other space to help each other realize what we would be missing if we broke up, and that he believed that despite the hurt on both sides, we both still shared an enormous amount which we are both discounting right now. Space would help keep us from tearing each other to pieces and tearing apart the love we have left for each other. He believed it was possible to care for the boys and give them stability, and still be able to give each other this space. He said it might feel like Hell for 2-3 more years, but we should be willing to go through that, as if we came out the other side, we would still have each other when we were in our 50s and into old age. He said he still loves his wife as much as the day he married her, and they are still friends, although they have now been divorced 20 years. He said he was sure my H loved me, and also sure that he had no idea how much or in what ways he was seriously neglecting me - he said when he waked up to that, it was too late for his wife and she wouldn't wait for him. He also commented on how much my H loves the boys, and he said he was the same with his 3 boys and didn't realize that he poured all his attention into them and had little left for his wife. This is exactly what I feel has happened to us. AFter talking to him, I felt more accepting and easier about letting go and getting on with my own life, without resentment. I think part of why I have been so traumatized by my H's betrayals is because they coincided so closely with both my brother's death and my SIL's suicide. If neither of those events had happened, I think I may have been more calm, more patient, and less outraged. Maybe not. Maybe this is a growing experience I would have had to have had in any case.

So I feel a lot better today.


When you get so you can look from both sides it will be easier to know what is going on, and not make errors in judgment.
THIS is exactly why I find your advice SO very helpful, ss - because you have seen how I immediately jump to conclusions, or interpret something he does or says in the way I think he means it, and I am not able to see other options.
Sometimes I suspect I could be wrong, but when he doesn't talk to me, then I get confused. Confusion for me leads to frustration and depression - I want to KNOW for sure what is happening and what he thinks and feels about something - I am so insecure about him that I find it hard to let things rest.

Becoming a more secure person in myself would help me stay calm enough to think straight when I get confused, and to stay rational. (Sometimes thinking straight is hard for me <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> ).

Which brings me right down to what you said:

I really do want you to have faith in yourself. It needs to come from within, so me saying things won't help as much as your own improvements and knowledge that you are doing the best you can.
Just for the record, I do believe you are doing the best you can.
Believe me, part of my growing has to do with the advice and support I have had from so many people, not LEAST of all, you, ss - so please don't stop, if you think you have something to say - you always see things I don't, and have a way of putting things that is truly helpful - I am trying to copy your style! Learning to communicate without DJ's - which is hard, when you think hard about it (uh, oh - thinking hard again! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> ).

Thanks for the good words about my father - only time will tell - he is actually a lovely man, with a great spirit and great sense of humour, and we all love him best when he is sober!

Have to go now, as I am at work.
Take care,
LIR

I was going to try and talk a little bit, but my W just called down and says it's time for bed.

So, just a couple of lines for you.

I think your friend is very wise. I believe you got some very good help from that discussion, and I am glad someone besides me told you. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Next, you don't always jump to conclusions. Sometimes you do, sometimes I do, in fact, it looks like everyone on the board does some time or another ( except maybe JL.) Remember I said that one of the reasons I come here is to help me? That is one of my problems, and I help me when I help you.

I hope things continue to go well for you, but I know there are cycles of up and down. Don't let the down rule your actions. You can get out of that trap, and do lots better. You have it in you to get this to work, you should feel this is true when you read it.

Still praying for you. Need to go.

SS

Dear ss -

Thanks for looking in on me, and the pep talk!

I think I'm OK. I haven't posted because I'm not particularly upset about anything specific - although I could choose to be if I wanted to - make sense?

Like H staying out late on Mon nite and not being able to get a hold of him on the mobile - he comes home at 11:40 and I asked him where he had been, because I had had to bring OS home (from boarding school) that night, sick with a tummy bug and I wanted to talk to him about how we would handle the next day's child care. So I asked "where were you?" and he mocked me "Where were you?! Do I have to sign in and out now!?"

You know, its this kind of response that I find so continuously frustrating after all this time. OK, I try not to LB - and I let it ride. Tuesday nite (last night) he had his first counselling appt with my counselor. I don't know how it went as he hasn't talked to me yet (except to get irritated when I couldn't tell him which toothpaste tube OS had used, because he doesn't want to get his bug) - so we had something of a spat this AM right before I left for work. I have been up and down all night with OS, helping him and cleaning up, etc - finding out which toothpaste tube he used was not something I thought about (yet) - so how come it's my fault I can't tell him this - why doesn't he go and ask him himself - why does he have to get irritated with me?

OK, I AM upset and now I'm talking about it - typical woman.

THis is what happens between us every day, through the day, all day, for years - year in, year out. He finds something that bugs him. He comments on it in an indirect way - "Don't you think it would be a good idea if we knew which toothpaste tube he used" - he is irritated when he says this to me - ALL of his body language tells me this, not his words - he's very careful to choose his words so as not to be accused of being confrontational. But its still a criticism of me - the underlying message is - "This is something I wish you could have done, should have done, should do, want you to do, why didn't you do it?". I feel it inside immediately and react defensively, even if I try not to - all of MY body language says I am irritated and he picks up on it. THen he says "THere's no need to be like that!" (Now we are in a conflict, but now the conflict is all my fault because I reacted to him uneccesarily defensively). I walk away. He stays irritated.

I come back, give him time to calm down. I try to talk about it in a non-confrontational way - I usually say I'm sorry if he misunderstood me. He still blames me - he remains mad. Then he accuses me of picking a fight. (This morning he blew and said "I'm NOT going to get into a fight with you over this!", and SLAMMED something hard down on the counter (a glass?). I said "Well, I'm sorry my attempt to communicate with you over a misunderstanding ended like this, but this is it in a nutshell - all attempts to communicate with you end with you getting angry and then with some violent reaction!" I went to leave. "Don't storm out of here in a huff!" he said. "I'm not" I said, "I'm getting out of here before it gets any worse." And I left.

So I just called to see how OS is doing, and H answers the phone, and he's all nice again.

This is the rollercoaster we are on every day. How am I supposed to be happy in this marriage? Yes, I am upset, but I am still willing to work at MC, and I am just praying we get to our first session, and then past that without any explosions. He has one more session alone next Tues and then the following Tues we should start together.

Well, in myself, I am fine -

LIR

Hi LIR,
This one is kind of hard for me, because I have to agree with you about his ongoing abuse. I don't know if it changes anything, I mean, you have known about it for a long time, but it will probably change the tone of my posts. I'll explain more later, for now, I'll just comment on some of your observations.

I think I'm OK.
I am happy to hear you say that, but I look for the day when you say " I am sure I am OK, and getting better all the time"

I haven't posted because I'm not particularly upset about anything specific - although I could choose to be if I wanted to - make sense?
Yes........Yes, it does, but I wish things were better. It's that constant stress of having to deal with things that shouldn't be happening in the first place.

Like H staying out late on Mon nite and not being able to get a hold of him on the mobile - he comes home at 11:40 and I asked him where he had been, because I had to bring OS home (from boarding school) that night, sick with a tummy bug and I wanted to talk to him about how we would handle the next day's child care. So I asked "where were you?" and he mocked me "Where were you?! Do I have to sign in and out now!?
This is one you need to take to counseling. You will need some specific examples of things that you want done differently, and this is a very good one. Why does he want to be married if not to share his life with you? Good question to ask then.

"You know, its this kind of response that I find so continuously frustrating after all this time. OK, I try not to LB - and I let it ride.
Long ago I said ( to you) that we can either continue to work on it, or leave. We have to get above LB's ourselves, for they serve no useful purpose in our lives. I agree with DR Harley when he says ( and I am paraphrasing here) that the only way to build love and closeness is by using POJA to work through things. Any thing else makes one happy at the expense of the other. I have really been happy to have learned about this, it has made heaven out of hell for us, in so far as we do it correctly. I am glad you are doing things the right way. I know it may not get you what you seek, but if it does not, then nothing else you could do will work either.

Tuesday nite (last night) he had his first counseling appt with my counselor. I don't know how it went as he hasn't talked to me yet.........
I was hoping to hear before I leave ( in about 30 minutes) but I'll have to wait until I get back on Monday. The fact that you haven't reported usually means that nothing has changed.

............ (except to get irritated when I couldn't tell him which toothpaste tube OS had used, because he doesn't want to get his bug) - so we had something of a spat this AM right before I left for work. I have been up and down all night with OS, helping him and cleaning up, etc - finding out which toothpaste tube he used was not something I thought about (yet) - so how come it's my fault I can't tell him this - why doesn't he go and ask him himself - why does he have to get irritated with me?..............OK, I AM upset and now I'm talking about it - typical woman. This is what happens between us every day, through the day, all day, for years - year in, year out. He finds something that bugs him. He comments on it in an indirect way - "Don't you think it would be a good idea if we knew which toothpaste tube he used" - he is irritated when he says this to me - ALL of his body language tells me this,
I sometimes laugh when I hear how much like me he is, but today I am just sad. This part was so hard for me to get, and I am not sure why. I am pretty sure it was part defect inside of me, and part being worked on by the enemy who wanted to destroy our M. I didn't do it daily, but often. Far too often.
Take some small thing, and yes it would be nice if you knew, but there are so many things you have to deal with that this becomes something like worrying about swatting flies at the Normandy landing in WWII. I suppose that if everyone were sitting around doing nothing they may tend to swat some, but during battle no one even cares. It sounds like his family has made this into a fine art. Well, we are both venting here, and what is needed is a solution.

OK, I AM upset and now I'm talking about it - typical woman.
Actually, this is good, because it keeps you from blowing up at him. Most of us learn to do this, even if we only tell the dog.

I think you need to tell this in counseling also. If you have to print this out and read it in order to get it right, I think you ought to tell it the same way you are telling us. You should include the rest ( that I did not include,) it is very well written and to me explains exactly what you are trying to get across.

(This morning he blew and said "I'm NOT going to get into a fight with you over this!", and SLAMMED something hard down on the counter (a glass?). I said "Well, I'm sorry my attempt to communicate with you over a misunderstanding ended like this, but this is it in a nutshell - all attempts to communicate with you end with you getting angry and then with some violent reaction!" I went to leave. "Don't storm out of here in a huff!" he said. "I'm not" I said, "I'm getting out of here before it gets any worse." And I left. So I just called to see how OS is doing, and H answers the phone, and he's all nice again. This is the rollercoaster we are on every day.
I was in that fog, and I wish I could explain it. How can some of us get so short sighted? So stupid? ( speaking for myself, and not anyone else.) How can we hurt so badly the one we are supposed to protect above all?

How am I supposed to be happy in this marriage?
Agree, but I am glad you are working on it, because we really don't know yet, do we?

Yes, I am upset, but I am still willing to work at MC, and I am just praying we get to our first session, and then past that without any explosions. He has one more session alone next Tues and then the following Tues we should start together.
It may well be that he will explode. You can only do the best you can do. You can be calm, and present your hopes and worries in a positive manner. We will hope and pray for you, and for the counselor to do a masterful job, but in the end, it depends on him.

I can see why you have struggled with this for so long. Once you find MB and you see how things SHOULD be you can never go back. Things should be different, and you know that, and it can't be undone. You are not crazy, it's not you, and I can confirm that from this end. The big trick is how do you get someone to see past all the little petty stuff ( toothpaste germs) and understand the big picture, and work on that. I hope C can help.

Well, in myself, I am fine -
I hope you are telling the truth here. I hope you are.
I once asked you to read "Love Busters. "
I wish you had purchased it, for him. But how to get him to read it? Probably not now, but hopefully later. It outlines and defines the things he is doing and explains how and why it hurts. It did such a good job that I was able to finally understand what was going on.

Know what?
I really believe you will be OK. I have a lot of faith in you.

I'll be gone on business for a few days, but will check in when I get back.
Here are a few things you could work on while I am gone:
1. Write a book. If you are pressed for time, shorten it to 500 pages.
2. Visit Italy. I hear it's nice this time of year.
3. Show sons how to do skate board tricks. (I'll explain my logic here if you are stumped)
4. Become a five star chef in your part time.

If you get all of those done, I can add some more, just let me know.

SS

Double Post !
Wow, one is plenty, two is too much !
SS

<small>[ January 30, 2003, 03:01 PM: Message edited by: still seeking ]</small>

I'm really sorry, ss - I actually cut out on you in the middle of a sentence at the end of my last post - because my boss walked back in sooner than usual! So I sounded short when I didn't mean to be. I usually post at work on my 10 minute break - I am entitled to a break, so I don't feel guilty about posting, I just don't want to "get caught" if she thinks that's all I've done while she's been gone for an hour!

I want to respond in more depth, but again, I'm at work - I really appreciate the pep talk - hey! I could do all those things! Maybe even write a book - I HAVE been accused of indulging in "monologues" so maybe I'm just a born writer!

I really AM ok in myself, although, I have to say that I do feel that parts of me have been "driven underground" by the kind of relationship H and I have. I would like to be free of it, so that I could feel free to think, feel and explore mentally and emotionally without this constant anxiety - in other words, the R can be very stifling because I have to guard what I say all the time - that inevitably affects the way you think and feel. But because I am aware of the effect this is having on me, that's why I have to either change this R or distance myself from it.

H and I had a non-confrontational convo last night - he asked me why I had proposed separation again a couple of weeks ago - what I meant by saying it was not good for the boys to see our R, because it was not healthy. I reiterated that our R is not healthy and normal, although I wish that it could be, and that the boys will grow up believing that it is, and then model their own adult R on ours, and perpetuate this misery. I wasn't overemotional, I actually talked from the kitchen while he was in the other room. I said I thought we were both making each other unhappy with the way we related to each other, and I didn't think we could each of us change our basic natures or temperments - he would always be certain ways, and I would always be certain ways, and maybe we were just the wrong people for each other - neither of us could give the other what they needed. He asked me what I thought he needed - I said he seemed to want someone to have fun with, just for banter - and I thought he needed someone as tough as old boots, who was emotionally independent. I couldn't be that way - and I needed someone who was able to cope with my ups and downs and wasn't upset by my getting stressed-out over the children. I said I accepted that I couldn't give him what he needed and so be it. He wasn't mad at all and he said he thought if we could just "calm things down" that would be the first step. What this has meant in the past is "we would be fine as long as you don't get upset and let me have my way".

Well, we both went to bed then, and were pretty equable - he is sick with a bad muscle spasm in his neck - poetic justice for the "stiff-necked"?
He went to the doctor this am about it, but was in so much pain, he got up with me for the first time ever, at 6am, and I read my Bible readings to him, which he thought was good. (Hebrews 10:34-39) strangely enough.

I am just trying to hold on and get to MC - give that a go if we can. Oh, I also said to H last night that I was happy with myself and doing what I would like to be doing anyway, even if I were happily married. And that although I didn't think we could either of us change our "natures", the one thing I believed we could change was the way we communicate with each other. I said he says one thing and I seem to hear him say something else, and vice versa - I say one thing and he reacts to what he thinks I said.

So that all seems positive.

Yes, you are right - it was good I ended up talking about it here - I don't have a dog to talk to! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Thanks for listening and being there for me. Hope you have a good weekend. Its COOOLD here!
LIR

I'm just checking in again. You have not really asked for comments, and you seem to be doing well. ( except for that long term fatigue that comes from living in a difficult situation with no rest.)

One other thing to consider is a short term plan B ( sans letter.) You could arrange to visit your father this summer for about a month and perhaps H could see what it would be like without you.

I think up lots of things, don't know how many of them are good ideas, but I say them anyway.

I know you will check back when you have something to report. I have been praying for you every day. I trust you'll get help as you need it.

SS

Hi there!

I was just checking in and see that you have beat me to it, ss!

Yes, I think what is happening with me is that I am planing along, waiting to get to MC and trying to keep the lid on until then.

H and OS have both been sick all week - OS with a bad virus, and H with this muscle spasm in his neck - he is in a lot of pain and I truly feel for him. I have tried to help make him comfortable and care for him as best I can, and I feel this has drawn us closer together - he seems truly appreciative of my care for him. The doctor prescribed some Valium for him over the weekend and boy was he a nice person! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

It was a real eye-opener! Not that I want him on Valium - but it took all his irritability away - he was kind, sweet, appreciative - we even sat in bed laughing and chatting! I know he could be this way if he were "trained" - as you once said. It helped me see that there is still alot to like about H and that he does truly love me.

I can't talk right now because I'm at work, but will try to check in later. Be back soon.

Thank you for your prayers, ss - I appreciate so much all you have done for me.

LIR

I'm back for a few moments - I feel bad because I haven't been able to talk as in depth as I would like to - you may not get a feel, ss, for how much I appreciate the help you have tried to give me. Its hard for me, many times, to find the words I want to say, especially when I am pressed for time on the computer.

The difference between H on Valium and H not on Valium is striking. I suppose it would be with anyone. LOL But on the couple of days he was on Valium, even though he was still immobile with pain, he was polite to me, appreciative of my desire to help him, caught my eye and smiled goofily - poor lamb! Without the Valium, he HATES being in pain, and is grumpy and his "normal" picky self - telling me off for leaving the front door open a crack and letting cold air in, when it was him who stopped me going out to tell me something, refusing to answer me when I ask him if there is anything I can do for him, etc. Its like, all his "controlling" behaviour was muted down when he was on Valium. Like when I took him to the physiotherapist in the car - he suffered through the bumps and gear changes (I was VERY smooth! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> ) without complaining, and didn't tell me when to shift, or to look out for that car, or turn here, or not so fast, etc. Without the Valium, the following day, his finger was tapping on the gearshift, indicating to me it was time to shift, he was saying "look out for that car!", etc - but you know? Then he caught himself and said "Sorry I'm such a back-seat driver." Maybe being on Valium helped him see things differently for a day or two. It has also made me think that some kind of medication would probably be very helpful for him, but I don't think there's any chance he would ever take anything.

The other thing is that he went to the 2nd counselling appointment on his own last night - even with his neck being bad - and drove himself there. When he came home, he wanted to talk about my degree program that I want to do - it was quite funny, because our YS (just 7) said - "You're not going to talk if you are going to argue!" I said we weren't going to argue. YS said we should play "It" and explained all the rules of "It" - how you chase each other and when you catch each other, you change and be "It". He said if we were going to talk, we had to play "It". So H picked up the ball and said "I'm It", and said his piece - then said "Over to you - now you're It!" and it was my turn to talk. YS sat in between us and referreed any interruptions. There were very few, and we managed to get through an entire conversation about my degree and the funding for my degree without getting angry. YS was delighted. H enjoyed it. At one point he said "Forgive me for sounding so paternal, but..."..so it looks like he is showing signs of awareness. I wish it didn't feel so much like HE is teaching ME how to have a conversation without interrupting, when he is the main offender on the interruption scale. But if it works, don't complain, I guess!

Another thing that I have been mulling over in my mind. Next week should be our first joint session. And my big issue is Honesty, as you all know. But I have a secret, too. And that secret is MB, and my participation in this forum. What I would dearly love is for me to be able to be honest about my participation here, and the wonderful support I have found, and all that I have learned. But I REALLY don't think H would understand or see it that way at all. I think, at this point, he would absolutely blow his top - he would see this as the most radical betrayal of his privacy. I have also seen so many spouses on these boards tear each other apart here, once one decides to be honest, and then the other loses the support they needed, and benefited from. Its like - for many BS, this forum acts as a private group therapy session - they do not necessarily want their WS to know what they are thinking, feeling, or doing, when the WS is not yet in a place where honesty and care and protection of their S is top of their priority list. I still do not trust my H with my thoughts and feelings, so I would rather he not have access to them through this forum, until such time as I feel safe to share them with him, if that ever happens, and I do think it can.

But it brings me back to honesty. I can't very well demand total honesty from him, if I am hiding something myself. I am thinking that once we start joint counselling, and we start the difficult business of building trust, I should not be doing anything that I choose to hide from him. But I have many mixed feelings about this, as it would mean saying goodbye to the friends I have found here (at least for awhile). It would also mean giving up the valuable support I have received from people here, not least of all, ss. I am thinking that I should perhaps just lurk for awhile, and hopefully be able to come back and post now and then, once I feel that it is OK with H. I don't want this to be my last post, and we have a week before we are due to start MC, so I will check in before then.

Does this all make sense? I hope so. I hope I haven't come across as too cut and dried, as its not the way I feel.

I am also a little sad today - my sister e-mailed me that my 19 yr old nephew has decided to join the AirForce. While I think this is the right decision for him - he feels lost and aimless right now, is great with computers, has a good brain on his shoulders, just needs to get away from home and whip his life into shape - I still burst into tears. With the future looking precarious for our country, and the military looking to be involved in conflict for some time to come, he is bound to be involved in this in some way. I support our country's efforts to fight terrorism with every means available, including military force if necessary. And I know my nephew will do well in the AirForce, but I am still sad. I guess, like a lot of other folks out there, I am just scared for him.

Anyway, that's all from me for today,
Take care,
LIR

Well, a little update -

Like I said, H went to his 2nd counselling appt with my counselor, even though he wasn't feeling well, and when he came home, we had a decent conversation about my degree course.

He has seemed pretty happy the last couple of days - cheerful with me - upbeat.

Then yesterday I got a letter from my counselor, who writes that she and H have decided that they need more sessions together before he will be able to start couple counselling. The way she put it, if they have more sessions with him alone at this point, when we do start couple counselling, there is a better chance of it being more constructive. I'm OK with this, even though it looks like H has now hi-jacked my counselor, since now that he's going to her, I don't have anyone to go to. But my initial reaction is that this is OK - I DO think H needs more time with her for her to get a clearer picture of where he's coming from, and perhaps, for her to lay some kind of foundation of groundrules for good relationships. My H has been to 2 individual counselors for a few months each, and neither of them was a relationship counselor. My counselor is an experienced relationship counselor, so it will be the first time he has talked to someone with that angle on things. I know that I have problems communication-wise, and with insecurity - and so does he. Hopefully, we will be able to deal with each others problems in a constructive way once we get together.

My anxiety is that this is more time my H is taking, and we are still not in couple counselling. The letter said she expected we would be able to start towards the end of April- I'm thinking that's almost 3 months! But in the grand scheme of things, I think she is trying to get in 8-10 sessions with him.

In terms of H and I, we have had a couple of conversations in the past 10 days that I haven't been able to relate. Maybe I did relate some of the first one, I don't quite remember. He asked me why I had asked him about separation - yes, I think I did relate that one. I said basically that I didn't think we could change our natures, but that I thought we COULD learn how to communicate differently.
I don't remember if I also related that I ended by telling him that I was feeling that he obviously needed more than I could give him - that I wasn't enough to make him happy, but I accepted that - I didn't feel inadequate about myself, I liked myself - so if I wasn't enough to make him happy, so be it. What I didn't say (which was a cop-out) was that if he accepts this, then eventually I want out. I may not be enough to make him happy, but if so, I don't mean to hang around watching while he gets on with being happy with other women to fill what I can't provide. I figured I'd save that part for MC. So maybe I misled him into thinking I was OK with him being "friendly" with other women, when really I am not.

Then, when he was sick, and on Valium, we had a convo about "buddy". H brought it up - we were lying in bed reading, and H said "Oh, BTW, "buddy" DID show me all the e-mails, its just that I deleted them, so I had to ask him for them again." I thought for a minute, then I said that that was good, because if he did see them all, then he would have seen all the times I had said how much I loved him. He asked me how many there were and I counted on my fingers and said 7 - which he seemed surprised at - he said he had only seen like 3-4, he couldn't remember. I said, well, you know, I didn't go looking for an argument with "buddy" - I actually asked him for help, and in response, he is the one who basically took issue with me and provoked an argument with me. I said I deeply regretted having confided in "buddy" because I had never confided things about H to someone I didn't know and trust before, and now I felt "buddy" knew things about H that he shouldn't know, since he had shown himself to be someone who had not handled my confidences well (to put it mildly). I said that while I had apologized to him, he had not retracted what he said about me, except insofar as he called me insincere - everything else he called me he let stand. I said that I didn't have any malice towards anyone and why he should have responded to me this way I found really disturbing - if I had gone to one of H's other friends (naming 2 of H's gay friends of long-standing, for example) I was sure that neither of them would have responded like "buddy" did, so when he did, I was shocked and upset. But I wasn't going to worry about what "buddy" thought of me, so I was going to let it lie - I didn't plan on ever having any contact with "buddy" again. H listened and said "yes, I don't really understand it either," referring to "buddy"'s reaction to me. That's all he said - oh, he said he thought buddy was sorry about it all. Hmmm.

And one other thing - yesterday, YS was making a joke about me and shouted "Is mummy being vicious?", not knowing what vicious really means. And H laughed and said to him "No - I don't think Mummy could be vicious if she tried!"

Hmmm - well, that makes a change! But what does this all mean?

Do I get my hopes up? Or do I just keep on keeping on, taking care of myself?

Gotta go, but wanted to check in.
<img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />
LIR

OK, later that same day -

H comes home from work - he's been sick, neck still a bit stiff - I expect him to be tired - he looks tired, acts tired - not very communicative - I ask how he is, how was his day? OK. H decides he wants to take YS to his violin lesson - they get back 6:30 - he retires to other room to work while I fix dinner - dinner happens - H not talkative - I'm getting mildly "stressed" feelings - earlier, he came into the room, looking downright mad and I asked him what was wrong. Nothing's wrong. If anything is going on with H, he doesn't want to tell me about it. At one point, he makes some reference to himself as being "bonkers" - I say "join the club" trying to make a joke out of it. After dinner, H goes back to work in his "office" while I wash up - he comes out to help put YS to bed. Before putting YS to bed, he goes out the front door - YS asks him where he's going. To the car for a few minutes. Hmmm. (To use his mobile privately?). H puts YS to bed. I finish washing up. H goes back to work in his "office". I'm tired. I say I'm going to go read in bed. H says OK, doesn't look at me. Comes upstairs ten minutes later, says he's going out "for a few minutes". OK, I say. He goes downstairs and revs up the computer - checks his e-mails. Clears the history (cos I just checked). I decided to "test" - I come downstairs and stand in the doorway while he's on the computer. "Where're you going?" "To the pub." "Who are you going with?" "Who are you going with?" he asks back, with a smile on his face, slightly mocking. "With X." (This is the friend he used to say he was with when he was meeting OW2). "Why can't I ask?" I say. He doesn't answer. I go downstairs and go to the bathroom and go back to bed. He leaves.

Plausible explanation?

H is tired after a long day and since I'm in bed, thinks its OK to go out and have a beer with his buddy?

Maybe. How come he had to go out to the car? I didn't hear the phone ring and buddy invite him out. I also didn't hear him pick up the phone and call buddy and invite him out. So whoever he is meeting, he probably went out to the car to use his mobile to call. He was OK this morning, so how come the strange humour all afternoon and evening? Feeling guilty about something? Got a msg from someone he feels guilty about talking to? I don't know - you can see my tiny mind going around in circles.

Fact is, I don't like him going out. Why shouldn't he stay home with me? I didn't used to mind him going out once in awhile for a drink, but since he trespassed on my trust and got involved with OW2 by going out like this, now it bugs me.

I had a good evening - I listened to Sibelius Symphony no 5 while I was doing the ironing, and thought about the Raymond Carver short stories I just finished reading. So many times I can't put into words how I feel about life - but that symphony by Sibelius says it all. H came home and found me listening to it and was happy. But he still is gone right now.

LIR

Hi LIR,
I'm sorry I haven't been around much lately. My W went in the hospital for a hysterectomy Wed and I have been busy with the kids and the house and visiting her. I thought I would get on at least a little bit but I didn't. I don't know how you gals take care of all this stuff and work too. My level of respect continues to grow for all of you. Friday morning one of our cas broke down so I had to get that into the shop along with the other things. I am lucky that our mechanic was a neighbor growing up ( one year younger than me) so he always makes room for us when something goes wrong.

Usually I save the longer ones until last but I think I had better get to you first tonight, I'm not sure how long I have and I want to address a few things. I haven't talked to you for a while, so as long as the time lasts I'll take it line by line.

Without the Valium, he HATES being in pain, and is grumpy and his "normal" picky self - telling me off for leaving the front door open a crack and letting cold air in, when it was him who stopped me going out to tell me something, refusing to answer me when I ask him if there is anything I can do for him, etc. Its like, all his "controlling" behaviour was muted down when he was on Valium.
Maybe I should look in to that too ! LOL. Perhaps you could get some more and mix it up in his dinner every day. SS takes tongue out of cheek and goes on.

Like when I took him to the physiotherapist in the car - he suffered through the bumps and gear changes (I was VERY smooth! ) without complaining, and didn't tell me when to shift, or to look out for that car, or turn here, or not so fast, etc. Without the Valium, the following day, his finger was tapping on the gearshift, indicating to me it was time to shift, he was saying "look out for that car!", etc - but you know? Then he caught himself and said "Sorry I'm such a back-seat driver."
I used to do that every time my W was the driver. I still think some of that but I don't say anything now. I wonder if I will get so I don't even think it - I can only hope. What it means when I think about it is that we are different. Our emotional differences translate into differences in the way we interact with each other, the way we drive, almost everything we do. I am learning, I hope he does also. BTW, it means that he will do things differently than you would do them, so it is something that you need to realize and deal with too. I am learning that different does not mean "bad", it is just different.

The other thing is that he went to the 2nd counseling appointment on his own last night - even with his neck being bad - and drove himself there.
Sometimes I think he and I were twins separated at birth, I got a kink in my neck last week at a trade show and it hasn't gone away. I can't sleep normally or do my exercises in the morning.

When he came home, he wanted to talk about my degree program that I want to do - it was quite funny, because our YS (just 7) said - "You're not going to talk if you are going to argue!" I said we weren't going to argue. YS said we should play "It" and explained all the rules of "It" - how you chase each other and when you catch each other, you change and be "It". He said if we were going to talk, we had to play "It". So H picked up the ball and said "I'm It", and said his piece - then said "Over to you - now you're It!" and it was my turn to talk. YS sat in between us and referreed any interruptions. There were very few, and we managed to get through an entire conversation about my degree and the funding for my degree without getting angry. YS was delighted. H enjoyed it.
There continues to be bright spots. My children help also. I wish they kept this sprit into their late teens. At least to the same extent. I believe God will us everything he can to help us, and I believe he used your son in this case. What to you think?

At one point he said "Forgive me for sounding so paternal, but..."..so it looks like he is showing signs of awareness. I wish it didn't feel so much like HE is teaching ME how to have a conversation without interrupting, when he is the main offender on the interruption scale. But if it works, don't complain, I guess!
That's a good point. Any port in a storm, any thing that moves us foreword. Whatever works.

........ But I have a secret, too. And that secret is MB, and my participation in this forum. What I would dearly love is for me to be able to be honest about my participation here, and the wonderful support I have found, and all that I have learned. But I REALLY don't think H would understand or see it that way at all. I think, at this point, he would absolutely blow his top - he would see this as the most radical betrayal of his privacy.
I agree, I don't recommend you tell him - but if you fully recover, then would be the time.
This is a tough one. I have seen you say before " got to go, hear H coming in."
My feeling is that this is ( in some ways) like going to a councilor. He knows you go, and you may even tell him topics of discussion but if he knew some of what you said he may be angry about that also. I suspect there are things you say that you would never want him to hear. I really don't know what you should do, but I believe if you pray and think about it you will find your answer. I really feel that you will.

I still do not trust my H with my thoughts and feelings, so I would rather he not have access to them through this forum, until such time as I feel safe to share them with him, if that ever happens, and I do think it can. But it brings me back to honesty. I can't very well demand total honesty from him, if I am hiding something myself.
I wonder if you could say you found a website about improving marriages and ask him if it is Ok If you spend time studying on it to see what you can learn. I suspect he will say something similar to when you wanted to show him your mail to buddy. Something like "Why should I care what you do there?" Also, no one knows who you are, or who he is.

I suspect you have already thought of these things. I am here with my W's knowledge and consent. I have other reasons for being here that I have not shared with anyone but my W. One day I'll tell some of my good friends on MB. What should you do? I still don't know. My comment above will have to stand.

Does this all make sense? I hope so. I hope I haven't come across as too cut and dried, as its not the way I feel.
Don't worry about how you sound, I suspect that those of us that read your thread don't worry about things like that. You need to find an answer to that question that you can live with and feel like you are not living a lie. You will know what to do, don't worry to much about it.

I am also a little sad today - my sister e-mailed me that my 19 yr old nephew has decided to join the AirForce. While I think this is the right decision for him - he feels lost and aimless right now, is great with computers, has a good brain on his shoulders, just needs to get away from home and whip his life into shape - I still burst into tears. With the future looking precarious for our country, and the military looking to be involved in conflict for some time to come, he is bound to be involved in this in some way. I support our country's efforts to fight terrorism with every means available, including military force if necessary. And I know my nephew will do well in the AirForce, but I am still sad. I guess, like a lot of other folks out there, I am just scared for him.
I saw an article about a year ago about death rates for the population from 19 to 24 years old. One of the lowest rates for the last 20 years was those in the US military. The study covered different groups. Military, College students, those in regular jobs and a few others. I can't remember where I read it, or who did the study. My father served in Germany and he says it is a good experience for a young man if he has the proper attitude. I'll let you worry, but not to excess.

......... yesterday I got a letter from my counselor, who writes that she and H have decided that they need more sessions together before he will be able to start couple counseling. The way she put it, if they have more sessions with him alone at this point, when we do start couple counseling, there is a better chance of it being more constructive. I'm OK with this, even though it looks like H has now hi-jacked my counselor, since now that he's going to her,
I think this is really good. She knows you well, and I don't know what you have talked about each time, but I suspect she knows your fears and struggles with H. She has a vested interest in helping him to help you. I suspect she cares about you and wants this to work out. Perhaps this is one of the best things that could have happened. I know the down side is that you are without. You seem strong enough to get by for a time. Do you think so?

I know that I have problems communication-wise, and with insecurity - and so does he. Hopefully, we will be able to deal with each others problems in a constructive way once we get together. My anxiety is that this is more time my H is taking, and we are still not in couple counselling. As I said, she knows you, and she has a PLAN. Let her work. As far as I can tell, all of us have insecurity about something. We all have talents, we all have faults. I feel sure that she wouldn't take this time with him unless she has some kind of an angle already in her mind. Perhaps she wants to build trust with him so he doesn't feel attacked when you get to that first joint session. He needs to know she wants the best for both of you. I am kind of just typing as I think of things, I hope I don't ramble to much.

I don't remember if I also related that I ended by telling him that I was feeling that he obviously needed more than I could give him - that I wasn't enough to make him happy, but I accepted that - I didn't feel inadequate about myself, I liked myself - so if I wasn't enough to make him happy, so be it. What I didn't say (which was a cop-out) was that if he accepts this, then eventually I want out. I may not be enough to make him happy, but if so, I don't mean to hang around watching while he gets on with being happy with other women to fill what I can't provide. I figured I'd save that part for MC. So maybe I misled him into thinking I was OK with him being "friendly" with other women, when really I am not.
You need to make sure you make your points when you talk, but here's something to think about. I believe if we have a desire in our heart to do what is right we can change our selves. If you have read much on other threads, you can see it in many people. Have you followed 2longs saga? I think his new name is Qfwfq . He is changing as fast as he can figure out what he needs to do. There are many others that have changed. You seemed to be sure ( at least the way the conversation came across to me) that neither of you can or will change. I believe you are changing and that he can change too. You are a different and better person than Odile who first came here.

Then, when he was sick, and on Valium, we had a convo about "buddy". H brought it up - we were lying in bed reading, and H said "Oh, BTW, "buddy" DID show me all the e-mails, its just that I deleted them, so I had to ask him for them again."
I really don't think buddy will have as much effect on H as you may think. I believe your counselor has a plan and will do a good job. You keep on with your improvements too, that will make more difference than whatever buddy can do.

And one other thing - yesterday, YS was making a joke about me and shouted "Is mummy being vicious?", not knowing what vicious really means. And H laughed and said to him "No - I don't think Mummy could be vicious if she tried!"Hmmm - well, that makes a change! But what does this all mean? Do I get my hopes up? Or do I just keep on keeping on, taking care of myself?

You continue to plan and prepare for the worst, but hope for the best. This last does sound good. He does know you pretty well at times, doesn't he. And you still love him, and it's hard sometimes isn't it. You just keep doing your best and you will be OK.
Marriage building is kind of like war. Every campaign is a winning one, every plan is going to succeed. However, every commander always says " where do we fall back to if it doesn't work like we hope it does." Keep thinking, you are a sharp gal, you think things through really well. I believe you will get through this in fine shape.

.............. he retires to other room to work while I fix dinner - dinner happens - H not talkative - I'm getting mildly "stressed" feelings - earlier, he came into the room, looking downright mad and I asked him what was wrong. Nothing's wrong. If anything is going on with H, he doesn't want to tell me about it. At one point, he makes some reference to himself as being "bonkers" - I say "join the club" trying to make a joke out of it.
And you say that you have trouble communicating. It sounds like it's him that has the problem. You can't talk to someone that won't answer back. I feel sorry for you in this. Sounds like he still wants that secret life. I believe you have a good chance here to tug on his heart strings a little bit.

........."Where're you going?" "To the pub." "Who are you going with?" "Who are you going with?" he asks back, with a smile on his face, slightly mocking. "With X." (This is the friend he used to say he was with when he was meeting OW2). "Why can't I ask?" I say. He doesn't answer.
One of these times when he does this, look at him with all the love you can muster and say something like this, " I am sorry if me wanting to know where you are going bothers you. When we married, I thought we would share our lives with each other. I wanted to be a part of all you do, and have you a part of all I do. I still want that, please don't mock me, it tears me apart inside." Then turn and walk away, or kiss him, which ever feels best.

I go downstairs and go to the bathroom and go back to bed. He leaves. Plausible explanation? H is tired after a long day and since I'm in bed, thinks its OK to go out and have a beer with his buddy? Perhaps, but if so, why can't he tell you, unless he wants to hurt on purpose, or make a point. Is he trying to make a point? I hate this side of him, I never did this to my W.

How come he had to go out to the car? I didn't hear the phone ring and buddy invite him out. I also didn't hear him pick up the phone and call buddy and invite him out. So whoever he is meeting, he probably went out to the car to use his mobile to call. He was OK this morning, so how come the strange humour all afternoon and evening? Feeling guilty about something? Got a msg from someone he feels guilty about talking to? I don't know - you can see my tiny mind going around in circles.
You don't need to make light of your mind. Your mind is not tiny. You are right, this is not the behavior of someone that wants to make his wife happy. I hope this can addressed in counseling. He needs to know that it tears you apart inside when he does this. And for what? What does he get from it that is worth the pain he causes? You need to ask him that flat out.

Fact is, I don't like him going out. Why shouldn't he stay home with me? I didn't used to mind him going out once in awhile for a drink, but since he trespassed on my trust and got involved with OW2 by going out like this, now it bugs me.
He has never addressed his sins, and you will never heal your relationship with him unless he does.

LIR,
You are still in the refiners fire and you won't leave it in this life. When this test in ended, there will be another and so on until life is ended. This is a test that no one should have to endure. I feel for my W, and I feel for you but I believe you will do well in your test and get much more than a C grade. I believe you have it in you to get an A+.

It looks like you are much better at communication. I sometimes wonder if I can help much more. I direct you once again to the post where I talked about charity. You win when you can have charity for him no matter what he does. I still don't know about the dream you referenced in Sept that made you want to continue to try. I can't say what the voice meant when you heard " distance your self from him." ( did i get that right, well, probably close anyway.) I can tell you that you do have a Father in Heaven that is real, and that loves you and will help you. That is more sure than the sun coming up tomorrow.

I didn't take time to proof this like I should have, if some if it doesn't make sense, ask me " what in the world where you tring to say."
Whatever you think about posting in the future, will be fine with me. I would much rather your M heal than anything else. Continue your prayers, the answers will come to you.

SS

<small>[ February 08, 2003, 08:03 PM: Message edited by: still seeking ]</small>

Hi there -

It was good to hear from you, ss - especially since I see you have been so busy at home, I really appreciate the time you took to reply to me. I'm sorry for your wife's surgery - that's a tough one, and I hope she is recovering well - I know this can be quite painful - not something I have had to go through (yet?). I am sure she will appreciate anything you can do to make life easier for her while she is recuperating. I laughed when I read your comment about "how do you women do all this and work, too?" - my first reaction is yes, it is a lot of work, which the man of the house rarely has a clue about - I'm sure this was the source of most of my resentment against H - that he simply didn't (still doesn't really) appreciate how much goes into keeping a family household ticking over - then that he should criticize me and how I did things on top of that would just make me blow my stack at the drop of a hat! LOL I have tried to change myself by doing two things - first, I subscribed to the Flylady.net website and learned all about routines - morning routine, afternoon routine, evening routine, and that way, I got my stress level about housework under control, and then I have tried to eliminate the LB's from my own behaviour. So even if H still is critical or still doesn't appreciate how much work I do, I don't feel its OK to blow my stack at him like I used to do. I know I'm doing a good job, so if I feel upset, I just walk away.

For me, handling the housework has become more manageable since I started the Flylady program. Its very simple - but she's like having a cybermom who tells me what to do, so I don't have to remember myself. So I don't have to get upset with myself for forgetting to do things. I recommend it to everyone - I now don't get stressed out about making dinner every day, because part of my morning routine is to take meat out of the freezer in the morning, or to put something in the slow cooker in the morning. Flylady helps me think ahead and make it part of a regular routine. Like now I wash up my son's lunchbox in the afternoon, and pack everything for the next day into it the night before, and then just make the sandwich in the morning. Easy. I used to search for his lunchbox, then race around trying to wash it out, and make his lunch, 10 minutes before I had to leave - STRESS! Flylady is my secret to getting it all done - and her secret is having routines that work for YOU. Shameless plug for Flylady! LOL

Yes, the driving thing - I'm sure this is SOO common between husbands and wives - and the thing is - my H is a good driver - he has much faster reactions than I do, and better spatial awareness. But I am (usually) more careful because I am aware that I have to be. LOL I do have to say that I am at my worst when he is in the car with me - his nit-picking makes me so nervous that I make loads of mistakes I would never make if he weren't in the car!LOL

I still think some of that but I don't say anything now. I wonder if I will get so I don't even think it - I can only hope. What it means when I think about it is that we are different. Our emotional differences translate into differences in the way we interact with each other, the way we drive, almost everything we do. I am learning, I hope he does also. BTW, it means that he will do things differently than you would do them, so it is something that you need to realize and deal with too. I am learning that different does not mean "bad", it is just different. Yes, I think you hit the nail on the head - "different" does not mean "bad" - and that this is a 2-way street - it works both ways - I can think the same intolerant way about the way he does things, too, and have to learn to be aware of when I am doing that.

I got a kink in my neck last week at a trade show and it hasn't gone away. I can't sleep normally or do my exercises in the morning. Ouch! I sympathize from watching H, who has been in agony. H's neck is finally improving, and he has been able to sleep lying down for the past few days now, but it really hurt - maybe a chance for you to try that Valium! JUST KIDDING! Neck pain not fun - take loads of ibuprofen, which is anti-inflammatory, go to physiotherapy (NOT chiropractor) and put heat on it - warm a towel on the heater and wear that wrapped around your neck to help support it. Take care of yourself, ss - you are working hard these days.

There continue to be bright spots. My children help also. I wish they kept this sprit into their late teens. At least to the same extent. I believe God will use everything he can to help us, and I believe he used your son in this case. What to you think? Yes, I think God is there in our lives, and looking after our children - I admit I was taken aback by YS's resolve in referreeing our conversation. Its also an example of how deeply affected our children are by our conflict - that any hint that a conversation may start between us brings up this level of anxiety in them. I gave YS a periscope for his birthday, thinking it would be perfect for a 7 yr old to have fun with - I said, look you can see around corners with this, and he said "Yeah - I can use it to spy into the kitchen when you and daddy are fighting!" Ouch!

On to my participation in MB. I appreciate your thoughts on this, ss. I WOULD miss very much my friendships here at MB, not least of all, the kindness and thoughtfulness and wisdom you have offered me through out this difficult time. And I think you have a point - I think he wouldn't necessarily care whether or not I come here. Its just that I'm not sure. I did tell him that I had found this website and that I spent a lot of time here and had learned a lot from this website. But I didn't specifically tell him that I actually post here, and I don't think he has come looking for me here. I am of the mind to tell him about posting here, if I think it is important, when we are well into recovery. I may never tell him that I have been posting here so long. But once we do start marriage counselling, I won't feel comfortable coming here "secretly". So once we do start marriage counselling, if I come here, I will have to find a way to be honest about it. I do look at MB as a form of counselling, and through MB, I have learned an enormous amount about relationships and have done a lot of work on trying to change myself for the better. You are right, I am not the same person who started here last February - thanks for the vote of encouragement!

Thanks also for your words about statistics in the military. That helped! My instinct is that the military is the right place for my nephew - he will get the discipline he needs to shape all of his many gifts into something worthwhile. Without the military, he will "drift", since he is not self-disciplined or self-motivated enough to find his way out of his present predicament - bored in college computer courses, working at Albertsons, hanging out with friends playing video games. Apparently he went to Sacramento and came in the top 10 at something called X-Box - which means he has real fast reaction times - my mom said "if you join the airforce, you can play real video games" (she was a WAC during the war, and my dad and my uncle were both pilots in the AirForce during the war). So I am hoping he doesn't chicken out - I want the best for him, and I think he has a lot to offer - he's wasted on X-BOX to be honest, though I'm sure he wouldn't agree.

Yes, the thing about my H going to my counselor -
I think this is really good. She knows you well, and I don't know what you have talked about each time, but I suspect she knows your fears and struggles with H. She has a vested interest in helping him to help you. I suspect she cares about you and wants this to work out. Perhaps this is one of the best things that could have happened. I know the down side is that you are without. You seem strong enough to get by for a time. Do you think so?
Yes, I think I am strong enough to get by for a couple of months without her - although, I have to say, being able to come here does help me get through, in that respect. I don't feel jealous of my H taking this time with her - and I'm glad you seem to see this in such a positive light as well. My counselor does know a lot of the things I feel are important areas of concern in our marriage problems, but its important that she also know what his areas of concern are, and its only by having more time with him that he will be able to communicate those things to her. I feel this is important, and the fair thing to do. It did help you pointing out to me that she is the experienced one in this kind of counselling and if she feels this is necessary, that she must have a plan. That's quite reassuring.

You need to make sure you make your points when you talk, but here's something to think about. I believe if we have a desire in our heart to do what is right we can change our selves. If you have read much on other threads, you can see it in many people. Have you followed 2longs saga? I think his new name is Qfwfq . He is changing as fast as he can figure out what he needs to do. There are many others that have changed. You seemed to be sure ( at least the way the conversation came across to me) that neither of you can or will change. I believe you are changing and that he can change too. You are a different and better person than Odile who first came here.
Yes, I know what you are saying here. I also believe that we can change. But I haven't said that to H. What you said about marriage being a war campaign sometimes is so apt! I would say that the convo I related above - saying I didn't think we could change our temperaments, but we could change the way we communicate - was part of my current strategy, which is to give in and not fight what he thinks he wants. My strategy is that he will resist me, and all my ideas, as long as he thinks that I want him to change. He will resist working on the marriage, and recovery, as long as he gets the idea that I am unhappy with him the way he is and want him to change. If he thinks this, it will only reinforce his resentment. So I am going along with everything - if he wants separation, he can have separation. If he wants divorce, he can have it. If he thinks he needs more than me to make him happy, so be it. What I have not relinquished is my right to make my own decisions. If he wants other women (and he hasn't SAID he does, then I have a right to say, fine, have them, but I'm outta here). I am thinking that giving in like this is the only way to give him the space to want to change of his own volition. I am thinking that by giving him the space to have what he thinks he wants, what he thinks he wants might change, once he realizes that he can't force me to choose what HE thinks he wants. At some point, this is going to sink in, although it may not have yet. I'm not sure just what is going on with him right now - am I ever? - but my instinct says that he is now giving things a chance to change.

I think the thing with "buddy" was about my H being vulnerable to every poison tongue that comes along - he is like the seed sown on the path that gets choked with weeds. Buddy's advice was like the thorns and weeds, and H, being weak, got swallowed up in that for awhile. Its true what you say, to keep on with my own improvements and then "buddy"s words will have little effect. But really that is up to H - he can always choose to go back to listening to buddy if he gets mad at me again. But it is encouraging to think that he may have seen through some of this.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I go downstairs and go to the bathroom and go back to bed. He leaves. Plausible explanation? H is tired after a long day and since I'm in bed, thinks its OK to go out and have a beer with his buddy? Perhaps, but if so, why can't he tell you, unless he wants to hurt on purpose, or make a point. Is he trying to make a point? I hate this side of him, I never did this to my W.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Glad to hear it. I can't understand this either, and its also what I hate about him. Also, as you can see - he came back together with me while he was sick and needing care and attention. I give it to him and feel so much better about us. Then its like he turns on me again. You can see why I feel so reluctant to be open to being close and vulnerable to him.
Where is the payback in being a good and caring wife?

Now part of me says, he probably did just go out with his friend like he said he did, and he could have made the arrangements earlier in some other way - usually he tells me though ahead of time - doesn't decide at the last minute (at 10pm) - he will say "Oh, I made arrangements to go out with D after dinner, is that all right?" So it really does look like he got a TXT msg from someone, felt uneasy about it, but decided to go anyway, hence the "edgy" feeling all evening ( he was even a little stroppy with the boys - not his cheerful self which he usually is when dealing with them).
He also didn't come home until nearly 12. The pubs take last orders at 11:00, and usually kick everyone out by 11:30, so if he was out until 12, did he sit in the car talking to someone afterwards? I just don't know. He seemed normal enough yesterday, and we went out to dinner with friends last night. He's back to work again today and was happy enough this morning. I don't trust H emotionally because of his ability to "compartmentalize" his life. He could very well be having a secret EA with no. 3, and I wouldn't really know except for these tiny clues - I didn't really guess about OW2 - to tell the truth - I thought he might still be involved with OW1, I never dreamed there was a no.2 - he was generally cheerful at home and it was only his continuing remoteness physically that puzzled me.

He needs to know that it tears you apart inside when he does this. And for what? What does he get from it that is worth the pain he causes? You need to ask him that flat out.
Yes, good point. And an excellent way to put it. What does he get out of his secret life that makes it worth the pain he causes, not just to me, but to all of us.

He has never addressed his sins, and you will never heal your relationship with him unless he does. Yes, I know. I say this sadly. I am hoping we are able to deal with this compassionately in MC. But I don't have high expectations. I just keep praying for healing and a new marriage, since I don't think our old marriage was ever healthy in this respect.

LIR,
You are still in the refiners fire and you won't leave it in this life. When this test in ended, there will be another and so on until life is ended. This is a test that no one should have to endure. I feel for my W, and I feel for you but I believe you will do well in your test and get much more than a C grade. I believe you have it in you to get an A+. Thanks for the vote of confidence. I don't always feel that I am much better at communication than I was before - probably I am much better at holding my tongue and not indulging in DJ's.

You win when you can have charity for him no matter what he does.Yes, this is the same thing the priest told me in confession. It helps to be reminded of this. And thank you for directing me to Q's thread. I have always lurked on Spacecase and 2long's threads because of the common ground we have. Although I don't post much because of the time problem, I learn a lot from reading - I had suspected 2long had changed his name, but I wasn't sure to what. I'll go and have a look. I am hoping Spacecase's wife will finally wake up at the last minute.

I have to go now - YS is restless and OS is coming home in a few minutes. Once again, that you for all your time, wisdom and encouragement. Please give my best to your wife - I hope she is feeling better soon - and you - take care of that stiff neck!

Take care,
LIR
<img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />