Oldtimers- how do you handle D THE BUM comments on MB board?

I definitely do not come here for D the BUM comments.. I can get those everywhere I turn.. came here to try my best to save my marriage and family.

My venting seems to make some think my children and family are abused... some have not lived with the disease of alcholism- and may never understand if they don't love an alcoholic what we go through.

I know some of us with difficult WS get this D the Bum advice..

Advice from others on this? NO BASHING please. Please stick to mb principles.. if you so choose to bash.

HONEY

Honey, I'm obviously not an oldtimer. I just wanted to post to tell you that you have my support. It may not be much. Anyone who tells you to D the Bum, needs to step in your shoes and spend just 1 day in your life. Until they are capabe of doing that and experiencing what it is your are experiencing, I would ignore those people. When someone says D The Bum, they are saying that out of fear and emptiness in themselves. If you were in an abusive relationship and the safety of you and your kids were/are in jeopardy, then I would not say D the Bum, but get out of the situation until he finds help for himself.
Not sure any of that makes sense. I don't have any experience in alcohol related issues, but just wanted to post to let you know I care about you and your family.

Take care of yourself.

HW

Ok, You asked for "Oldtimers" you got one!

I didn't bash you on your other post, I asked some hard questions, questions you should be asking and answering for yourself and that you chose to ignore. The marriage builders that I came to three years ago was never about giving only the advise,observations and feedback that would make a poster "feel good". It was about being brutaly honest, asking really tough questions and challenging behaviors and ideas in order to help someone obtain a more objective view of their situation and help them to grow. That means often hearing things that hurt to hear.

Marriage builders is not about saving a marriage at any cost. Some marriages aren't worth saving. Some marriages have too high of a cost to save. Some WS refuse to have any part in saving a marriage.It is far from true that ANY marriage is better than NO marriage. There is no guarantee that by being here you will save your marriage even if you follow the principles to a T. You seem to convienently forget one of Dr. Harley's most important principles, you can't fix a marriage when you have an on-going, active addiction that is part of the equation and that is not being addressed with treatment. I feel hard pressed to believe that if Jen Chalmers came here and read all your posts that she would be recommending Plan A. She plays harder ball than Steve Harley and I'd bet you've only told her what you want her to hear in order to get the advise you're wanting to hear.

So to be honest, if you're only looking for self validation and can't be brave enough to answer the tough stuff then you're probably not on the right board. I've cut and pasted my reply to your other post. People are here to help you. Please stop being defensive for your own good and take the time to look deeply into what others are saying and asking. I'd ask that you be brave enough and respond to the reply I made to your previous post. Thank you. We'd all like to see you succeed, beleive it or not!

Counting the Cost

I'm guessing that what everyone would like to know Honey, is, have you determined at what point this marriage is costing too much in terms of the damage it's doing to everyone involved, especially to your boys?

You say you want to save your marriage, but is that at any and all costs? Where does damage control come in and take over in order to ensure that your children are no longer exposed to a role model (the most powerful, influencial male role model they will ever have)that is modeling the epitome of destructive behavior and dysfunctional coping. What is your role as their mother in protecting them from that?

We can all understand that you want to save your marriage. That's why we all come here in the beginning. But Honey, AT WHAT COST? You've been here at MBers a long time now and nothing has changed for the better. H just doesn't have an OW right at the moment, but that was never the primary problem to begin with. The circumstances and details of H's life just change, but it's no better. Do you not see that it's not about you to begin with so it doesn't really matter what you do or don't do? It has to START with your H. That's why people keep telling you to detatch and move away from him. That's why Dr. Harley says if there is any kind of abuse/addiction ( physical, emotional,sexual, substance, gambling) in a relationship, that has to be addressed and fixed FIRST before the marriage can be rebuilt. It's the addict/abuser that has to make the first step. Nothing you do or don't do is going to get him one step closer to the point of realizing he needs help. You should realize this after this long and be acting on that knowledge. In staying in close proximity to the situation you are stunting your own growth and exposing your children to what is far from the example of what a real,honorable man is. Your boys are sponges..they are SOAKING all of this into their beings. Is this what you want them soaking up?

So we are asking and wondering. At what cost is this marriage worth saving and do you really have any power to save it or is that strictly up to your H now?

"I feel hard pressed to believe that if Jen Chalmers came here and read all your posts that she would be recommending Plan A. She plays harder ball than Steve Harley and I'd bet you've only told her what you want her to hear in order to get the advise you're wanting to hear. "

Motherboard, who are you? and why are you out to prove yourself right and me wrong in wanting my marriage? Why are you out to make me feel worse than I already feel? Why do you take your time to tell me I am twisting Jenn Chalmer's advice when I rise to that in self- defense to all your bashing.

Don't like your negativity, wonder if you are a chrisitan, married or divorced, but at this point don't care.

LEAVE ME ALONE! HELLO- <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" /> I don't like your advice.

H

On any board you're going to get answers from a mixed set of people. Some of the advice you might find helpful in YOUR situation, some of it doesn't fit at all. You learn to ignore those whose outlook, experiences, situations are not those which mesh with your own. Just let it roll off your back, realize that they are coming from their experiences (or else the famous "what I would do"...which is seldom how it would actually play out if they were faced with it).

Take from the board what helps you in your life...and know that while the rest is meant with the best intentions...it just doesn't fit you.

Good Luck!

I have not lived with alcoholism around. I am certain it is very difficult and maybe sometimes even dangerous. I hope your husband gets the help he needs to break his addiction to alcohol.

Unless I am overlooking something, I have not read where anyone had said "divorce THE BUM". I have read where they cautioned you (with your interest in mind) about enabling.

I have read where they have suggested you let your H suffer the consequences of his actions.

I have read where they have advised you to take care of yourself and your boys....but, I have NOT read where anyone said "divorce THE BUM"...

Calm down and read with an open mind to see if there is any truth in what they are saying. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> Sometimes the truth can hurt. Don't fight or run from the truth.

A repeat of what I wrote on your other thread about this subject:

Honey,

I haven't written you for months, because the last time I did, I said something you didn't want to hear, and you slammed me - and said you didn't want me in your threads. No problem. I went on to others who appreciated what I had to offer.

I'm sure you'll see this as an attack, because you see anyone who doesn't agree with you as an attack.

Honey, you have an anger issue, and if what we see here is anything like what your husband sees, it MUST hinder your recovery. Actually, it must color your entire marriage.

Please get professional help... this board is full of people - just regular people - doing the best they can to help you. It's not nice to slap hands that are reaching out to you in the best way they know how...

CHERYL.. newbeginning..

Why bother posting to me when you have ugly or rude things to say? THanks for staying off my threads in advance.

I am standing up for myself, and what I believe to be mean spirited and harsh comments.. not what I am here for.

Yes, I am angry, but I do think anger is a normal emotion? RIGHT? PLEASE DON"T ANSWER. I can't take any more of this from you people who are out to prove me bad or wrong.

Thanks.

HONEY

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" />

You are running from the truth....and the truth could set you free if you would only let it.

Sheryl has good advice, just as BrambleRose. Do not be closed-minded and stubborn. Listen to what everyone has to say.

I don't know why you guys are even trying. She doesn't want to hear what she doesn't want to hear. Oh well, can't save the world. If what she's doing makes her feel better, so be it. Everyone has to hit rock bottom even if the addiction is the fight itself.

Let it go folks, I really don't think after all this time you're going to get anything more than more of the same.

It may make you sad and angry to watch(it does me) but what can you do?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> D the BUM comments.. I can get those everywhere I turn.. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Everybody and everywhere must be wrong???? If people in your life are telling you this, there must be reason for it.

One of my favorite sayings and piece of advice is - he/she will continue to do this or that to you (treat you that way) as LONG AS YOU ALLOW IT.

From what I have read, I believe he is using you (once again), and I believe that deep down you know it. He will continue to USE you (off and on - I assure you) as long as you allow it. In your recent posts, I have read plenty about what you are doing and can do for him. What has he done or is he doing for you? and your boys for that matter.

You cannot FIX your husband. You cannot make him love you. You cannot make him live with you. You are not to blame for his drinking/drugging.

There are a few posters that really worry me, and you are one. I really believe you need more help than an anonymous message board. You are as addicted to your husband as you say he is addicted to his alcohol/drugs. You and your boys deserve more than you are willing to settle for.

I am not trying to hurt you at all, I truly would like to see you get more help than can be offered here.

And yes, I KNOW the life of drug addicts and alcoholics (unfortunately). They hurt EVERYBODY that loves them and some that don't. They make you feel so helpless. But you have got to learn that this is something he chooses and YOU CANNOT FIX IT. Also, the enablers make it almost impossible for the addict to get to the point where they see that they need to change. I KNOW!

One recommendation - please forget about the marriage building books/help and go find some books on Tough Love and addiction. Continue with and APPLY AA. Right now, I feel you need to concentrate on this more so than your marriage. The marriage can't be fixed until the addiction and enabling is. Tough love is hard.

Please don't keep looking for validation and look for some help for YOURSELF. You have been given some very good advice the last few days. Instead of getting mad and defensive at the posters - get mad enough to seek help and start working on the part that you have control over.

You don't have to divorce him to do this. But he must fix himself before you can ever have a healthy and fulfilling marriage.

<small>[ October 30, 2002, 05:26 PM: Message edited by: becontent ]</small>

Hmmm...

interesting that it IS the 'oldtimers' whom you perceive to be posting negative stuff...

mthrrhbard has BEEN THERE, DONE THAT... new_beginning has BEEN THERE, DONE THAT...

I have refrained from posting to you as well because you see anything that refutes what you want to hear... refutes what you want to do... as negative... AGAINST you...

Honey... nobody here is AGAINST you... but overtime we have seen a pattern...

Sometimes it is difficult to face the BRUTAL truths of life... but until you do... there will be little moving on... I can never know what YOUR brutal truths really arejust from reading your posts...but you do.

Cali

Raising Hand Here!!!!

I would be one of the ones that comments are NOT welcomed from. I did NOT say to D the Bum. I said to start legal proceedings to PROTECT you and your sons. Whatever those legal proceedings are is up to the state in which you live. You have Dumped YOURSELF. You have DUMPED your sons. When it comes to the welfare of you and your boys, you have bailed. You want us to enable you and I won't do it. That's my opinion and I am sticking to it. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" />

Always,
committed

Honey,

I have read many of your posts, but have not replied. I don't think most folks are saying "dump the bum", but rather "Plan A is not effective when an addiction is present", so protect yourself.

Harley is pretty clear that until an addiction is dealt with, Plan A isn't going to work...meeting their needs is a bottomless pit, and not expecting your needs to be protected is an invitation for disaster when you are dealing with an addict.

You are the only person who can decide what you want, and clearly you want the M. That's OK, it is up to you to decide. I do hope you will sift thru the advice and hear the ones that are saying "take care of you". You deserve to be taken care of, and right now that is up to you.

I've forgotten, have you tried Al-Anon? Reportedly, that is a good support group for families who are dealing with alcoholics...and I know many there have chosen to live with the problem, rather than dump someone they love.

Whatever you decide, good luck.

Kathi

Honey,

In the past, I have posted something similar to this but it bears repeating. I have lived with active alcoholism and drug addiction so I have a GOOD idea what it's like. I attend Alanon and AA on a regular basis.

Honey, only you can decide what you want for your life. There are some who flame you on these boards, and there are some (most) who post to you out of love. We see you continue doing the same things and expecting different results.

You are in control of your choices and your choices only. Think of the Serentiy prayer :
God, Grant me the serenity to accept the things I can not change (everyone and everything else)
The courage to change the things I can (only me)
and the wisdom to know the difference.

Dr Dobson's Tough Love and MB principles are about respecting yourself enough to say I am important, I deserve respect and honor. Respecting yourself no matter if you stay in this M or if you DV him. If you settle for the crumbs now, you will continue to get the crumbs. If it's not dealt with, it will come back to haunt you again and again. It did for me, more times than I care to think about. Sure it's tough.

The problem with alcoholics is their self centered fear run riot. If he doesn't get sober himself and dedicate himself to a spiritual program (like AA), then he will make himself feel good anyway he can. It's not likely that you will like those ways. He won't change until he has to and even then he still may not. Can you live the rest of your married life that way? Be honest.

((((((Honey)))))) I did a lot of the things that you are doing now ( I just didn't have feed back from people on the internet) Those things in the long run, lowered my self esteem and self worth AND they did not get my WH sober, they did not improve our relationship, they did not increase Wh's respect for me, nor did it A-proof my M. He keeps doing the same things.

Steve Harley recommended to me that I tell my WH that I love him, that I know he's still seeing OW, and into drinking and drugs. That we would have to separate until he could get himself into a better place. (sober and no contact with OW) It is hard to do with someone who has been the love of your life. I hate it. But that's ok, cuz there isn't a chance in Hell that we could have a loving healthy relationship while he is using.

Recently, I found a journal from the year I met my (now) WH. We were having the same problems then that we are now. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> That's 27 years. Let that sink in - 27 years <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

This time around, I did things differently thanks to MB, Alanon, AA and my prayer group. The verdict is still out, but how I feel about myself has soared. I have become a new person, someone I always wanted to be. People tell me they want what I have. That amazes me cuz I've gone thru such struggles. They say I am calm and full of grace and peace. That only comes thru the Lord. He works thru me.

God is always there for you. His wisdom and guidance beats anything but maybe, just maybe, he is speaking thru some of us on these boards, trying to get your attention. He is a God of Peace and wants you to be at peace with your life.

Honey, I know these things are hard to hear. Please pray about it and ask God to reveal to you what you need, and how you need to view your M. then pray for the courage to change the things you can and leave the rest up to God.

God Bless,

D.

People here are trying to help you -- and your children -- by telling you the truth.

You don't want to hear it because it's painful, but it's still the truth, and it's still the way to protect yourself and your family.

You've ignored the very good advice here and tried to do things your own way -- but with what result? As someone once said, "How's that workin' for ya?"

People here are giving you Radical Honesty because they care. It's very sad that you are not yet able to understand this.

Yikes. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />

I didn't post on your church thread because when it was new and short, I didn't have an opinion on what you should do.

I don't see where anyone told you to D the Bum, but I actually did have a much-loved, well-respected MBer at the beginnning of our 5th separation who told me to kick my H's butt to the curb.

I didn't. I continued Plan A through one more separation and 2 reconciliations THEN in the NEXT one....

I know I sometimes irk you with my advice, but sometimes, as I'm seeing here, I'm just trying to brainstorm. And sometimes, yeah, I'm telling you what I think you should do. Do I have every fact about you? I don't even THINK that I do...but I have the facts you've given and have followed your story pretty solidly since late last winter.

So, I was told to dump my H and didn't because I didn't feel it was right. 10 months later, when I thought it WAS right to serve the D papers, there were different posters who thought that wasn't right either.

You aren't going to agree with every poster. I hopefully seem pretty sane most of the time now, but I was on a hard roller coaster like you, not the same one, but like comparing single rail to wooden, either way it's quite a ride.

You probably don't know this, but 18 MONTHS into our final reconciliation (last year, this time) 2 posters told me it hadn't stood the test of time. It's one of the few things in nearly 4 years of posting that's caused me aggravation enough to remember it with negativity (and the posters' names <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> ).

And, if you want to ignore ME and anybody else you don't agree with...you can do that.

When you ask for advice, like you have, you're going to get advice, some of it pretty intense, because you have an intense and complicated situation. And some posters haven't been with you for the long haul...it takes a lot for a poster--most here dealing with infidelity in their own marriage--to follow someone else's story, you realize that, don't you?

You've got a lot of MB people spending considerable time and concentration on you, I think it's because they care, (I know I care) not because they want to spend extraneous time attacking you for kick....

(Hopping off the soapbox, giving you a hug)

PB- I appreciate your attempt to jump in and help ... I don'[t remember you knowing my FULL STORY.. or understanding completely what it is like to love an ALCOHOLIC...

I have asked these people to quit encouraging Divorce, or telling me what to do... in their words, from their world view , etc. HUmble opinions.. always welcome.. haughty and criticle ones are not at this stage in my life...

I can see some peoples points,... what I have tried to point out, and maybe not gingerly enough.. is that these people don't have the full picture.. and that my choice and advice from Jenn Chalmers.. yes she is aware of the alcohol... is to plan A. There are lots of issues in my M.

I appreciate all viewpoints.. does not mean I have to accept or like them... by telling people I do not like what they say.. I do not mean to be rude, cruel or anything like that. I am simply trying to speak my truth...

My truth is plan a... it will sa ve my family, and it will bring my h back from the ruins of alcoholism much more than any tough love approach.. I know him. No, I don't want to enable... or be a doormat.. plan a does make you feel like on tough ? right?

FUnny, the better I treat my ws, the better he treats me.. the better chances are for recovery in MY LIFE SITUATION>

Yes, many would not accept of permit, FORGIVE, or LOVE a man who has done what my H has... but I do. I am not an idiot, I am smart, I have morals.. maybe too strong at times.. especially when it comes to my M vows... etc.

I love my ws, with more than my heart.. and soul- he is part of me, my husband.. we are one. So yes, I am offended when I am told to D the bum.. and etc etc. I started off telling some of his failures when I was told to do more for him and that I was a demanding +itch... WEll alcoholism is kind of like dealing with craziness in full blown proportions, luckily for me and my family I can deal with it... some people would of d'd him long ago... I know him and why he is in this mode... I have only known him 18 yrs and he is the love of my life. I am not giving up.

Wrongs are all forgiven. I love my h, my fmaily is my life. I know we will recover..

And PLAN A WORKS BEST IN MY LIFE>

I just wanted those of you who make me feel bad to know that.. if that means more telling me how bad I am.. I guess I shouldn't of stood up for myself...

But I do see some open minded folk.. perhaps those a bit more like me.. that understand where I am coming from.. I thank all of you from the depths of my heart. I am in so much pain, to be hurt more by a board I come to for support is just too much at times.

I appreciate my friends here, and I am sorry if I am too brutally honest for some... One of my character assets, yet defects.. I am VERY HONEST.

Hugs and luck to all of you, prayers of course. HONEY

I take full credit for the "D the bum" comment and I will say it again and again if that's what it takes to get you off your A double S and do something to take control of your life back.

Your WS is an accused alcoholic not a self proclaimed one. He will not admit to being one until he hits rock bottom.

Why would you EVEN consider having him return to you and the kids without first demanding that he admit to his problem and seek help? Why would you expose your children to that?

My original comment was on another thread http://www.marriagebuilders.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=37;t=02081 1;p=3#000040 but you are very good at starting new threads in an attempt to distract everyone away from the real issues.

Face the facts. Take control away from an alcoholic WS. Do what's best for you and your kids. In my opinion that would be "D the bum".

I will surely get the normal response from you however, which is...

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> LEAVE ME ALONE! HELLO- <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" /> I don't like your advice.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">tagging off <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

<small>[ October 30, 2002, 10:05 PM: Message edited by: ba109 ]</small>