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Another "tid-bit" I dug up about Unconditional Love: </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> UNCONDITIONAL LOVE – Dr. Guy Pettit It is the exploration of what this might be that we do from now on in this seminar - and in life after the seminar! Its mystery and depth cannot be explained. Yet we all recognize its presence and its magic. It reveals itself through joy, which can even increase in adversity. We can learn to see ourselves as moving towards becoming able to express it ever more fully. We can learn the steps in developing this quality, which is still in the process of evolving or revealing itself. Unconditional love is enlarging the self, and an act of will. It is not a feeling or an emotional reaction. Think of the difference between falling in love, and growing in love through all difficulties and conflicts. <strong>Unconditional love is an act of mental and spiritual will, it cannot and does not take place upon the emotional level, which is where the problems first register. Unconditional love is extending oneself in the service of the spiritual growth of oneself and/or another, independently of reward or the behavior of others.</strong> <strong>To truly love in this way could include:</strong> To call forth a sense of responsibility, and a capacity to make wise choices. To point out weaknesses people have, - but very caringly so that the best in the person is drawn forth in response, rather than resistance. To challenge people to strive and attain, and discover their true selves.. To help people work on their habits and weaknesses so that they become stronger. To show them how to use their will correctly. To help people learn to cooperate, and thus to overcome their little egos. To engage people in working for humanity. To teach people how to overcome their prejudices, resentments, separative tendencies, vanities, illusions, and other blocks to their own joy. <strong>To truly love in this way does NOT mean:</strong> To surrender to weakness. To accept things that are harmful. To encourage weakness or irresponsibility. To accept dirt or ugliness in thought, feeling or action. To exploit or use people. To put people into sleep. To tolerate laziness. Unconditional love causes you to see what has really caused a situation and to see through the outer appearances to the true needs or yourself and others, without criticism of yourself or others . It causes you to see the basic good in yourself and other(s). Unconditionally loving people see their own errors and joyfully self-correct them . They love themselves, others and the Source of Life (The Lord, Christ, or your choice), and therefore the whole of life. In particular, they are inclusive, and can maintain love and goodwill towards both the apparent "victim" and "oppressor" in a situation. They seek to radiate their inner harmony and joy, peace and healing into any situation - without conditions or expectation of reward, and independently of the thoughts, feelings, and actions of others. They are group conscious and do not react by immediately taking sides. They serve the cause of peace and goodwill, and can often find ways to a fair solution of conflict that are not available to emotionally charged people. Gandhi taught the use of ahimsa and satyagraha, which is the willingness to cooperate harmlessly with the good intentions of the other for the true benefit of both. The Forgiveness Process can be seen to be a process which moves us towards this goal of unconditional love. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
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Space,
I'm getting what you are saying; and you too Aries. I do understand this theory of unconditional love. However what I also see based on what is posted on this thread is that there seem to be "conditions" to unconditional love. Am I right or do I still not get it?
Unconditional love seems to be a gift for people who are more highly evolved in their spiritual evolution. That in itself is a marvelous reason to study this principle. I'm still not sure it can survive the light of day (meaning reality)in the day to day relationship of a married couple. But my perspective today may just be the result of my stage of marital recovery. CSue
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Good thought here! Have to go to a meeting but will come back and give you all my 2 cents!!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />
Thanks for the thread WAT. I sure missed these types of discussions. This is definitely a learning thread for me.
L.
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Spacecase
Yep, I get that we have to accept that the affair wasn't done to purposefully hurt us (except maybe in the case of a revenge affair). In fact it's exactly that realization that allowed me to be so forgiving of my own WH. I knew it wasn't about me at all, it was about many things going on inside of him, so I was easily able to not take it "personally".
Now, can I get you to go back to the trust thing for me.......pleeeaaassse!
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Time for me to make a fool of myself with my opinion.....again...
Although I can see where it is possible to have unconditional love, is it even possible in a marriage?
Think about it. In the sense of true, unconditional love, we would love EVERYONE the same. There are conditions in our "marital" love, or we would not have chosen them over the rest.
If love in a marriage is not conditional, how could we possibly put our spouse above everyone else?
There has to be "conditions" that make us fall "in love" with our special other. If you want to get really deep into discussion, wouldn't being "married" be a condition? If not, then why wouldn't we love other people that are not married to us the same? The same is true for our children. Since they are our children, that in itself is a "condition". If not, then we could not distinquish the love that we have for our spouse or our children.
In other words, without "conditions", we could not possibly have a "special" loving relationship with someone.
If it were possible to have "unconditional love", then it seems to me that we could go out into the world and just pair off with anyone and be happy.
Certain "conditions" brought us to our marriage. It takes those "conditions", to keep it healthy. If our love were truly "unconditional", then NOTHING our spouse did could destroy that love. We would desire to stay in the marriage to soothe our "unconditional" love, no matter what.
I think it is impossible to have unconditional love with people that we place above the rest.
Because...we place them above the rest because of certain "conditions".
Boo
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</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> If our love were truly "unconditional", then NOTHING our spouse did could destroy
that love. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Of course. Nothing that my spouse has done or could done would destroy the love I have for him. I will always love him. That certainly doesn't mean that nothing he does would ever make me angry, or disgusted, etc., but my love for him is permanent. Although in my case, I did want to remain married, it does not necessarily follow that that would be always the case for everyone. If you love your spouse unconditionally but he puts your life in danger by assaulting you, quite possibly you would not want to ever be alone with him, much less married to him. That, however, does not mean you do not love him. The same might be true of a child. Would that mean that people whose children are perhaps mentally ill, who pose a danger to their family, do not love their child? Of course not.
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mh:
"However, there is a way to have that relationship where we are loved unconditionally, where we will never be disappointed and the only way we can have that ideal relationship is to develop a personal relationship with our Father in heaven, Who's love will never fail us no matter how many mistakes we make. He's always there, He'll never forsake us, He's true and faithful and He cares for us more than any human being can."
and if "She" doesn't exist? Look, I have no problem with religion or religious people. I just think life works better for ME if I take full responsibility for what happens 2 it. And so, if I don't "create Ulove in my life, there won't be any.
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CSue:
"What I wonder then is this; is unconditional marital love more about the journey, not the destination."
Like I said above, I believe that the contract of M is conditional, but love should not be.
"Better said; do you recognize that it is unobtainable;"
No, I don't. It might NOT BE attained in my M, but if it's not, then the following holds:
"yet the efforts to be there make you a better mate?"
Yes.
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Nellie and I are on EXACLTY the same page in regards to this subject: </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Nellie1: <strong>[QUOTE] Although in my case, I did want to remain married, it does not necessarily follow that that would be always the case for everyone. If you love your spouse unconditionally but he puts your life in danger by assaulting you, quite possibly you would not want to ever be alone with him, much less married to him. That, however, does not mean you do not love him.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I have said this before, even in this thread I think (I'm hitting my mid-40's and losing my mind, so I could be mistaken)... I loved my ex when we divorced, and he loved me. It seems, from an outsiders view, that it should have been enough to keep the marriage together, but it wasn't. That's the truth. Black and white, unvarnished, TRUTH. What is so hard for me (and people who think like me) to grasp, is how someone who DOESN'T unconditionally love people (and it's not everyone on earth, is it Nellie? It's select people, and it just *IS* - we don't control that) can tell those of us who do- that we don't. Does that make sense?
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</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by mthrrhbard, who was quoting Space Case, who in turn was quoting Baer:
"Trust is NOT something that has 2 be earned, it is a gift. Insisting that trust must be earned may protect YOU from your Spouse's "bad behavior" (in our cases, ongoing As), but PROTECTION only serves 2 make you ALONE AND UNLOVED"</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This is not good. This statement IS me. I'm guarded regarding the opposite sex, trying to protect myself like Steve Harley has told me to do in order to properly heal.
What do I need to do now so I won't be ALONE and UNLOVED? No one wants to end up this way.
Lv,
Jo
<small>[ November 03, 2002, 02:30 PM: Message edited by: Resilient ]</small>
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Clearly staying married DOES NOT follow automatically from Unconditionally Loving our spouse. We freely give our unconditional love, which means that no matter what they do or don't do, we will love them the same. That means we separate their actions from their "person". This does not mean we Unconditionally Love their ACTIONS or BEHAVIORS. Those may still hurt us and we may choose not to be exposed to them; thus dissolving the relationship.
However, since what we are ALL really looking for to be truly happy is to be Unconditionally Loved, when we are, in fact, being unconditionally loved, it is our natural tendency to reciprocate that love in an equally unconditional way. Therefore, it is quite possible that by unconditionally loving our spouse, we may reach into their heart, and when they feel that this is, in fact, what they were looking for and needing all along, (not the "fake" love of an affair), they may reciprocate in like manner. By doing so, it would be clear that their previous behaviors would cease, since it is quite impossible to unconditionally love and disrepect the recipient of that love at the same time.
In perhaps less convoluted terms, when we unconditionally love someone, and they feel it, it is their natural tendency to return that love in an equally unconditional way, and with the same respect with which it was given to them. Thus, it would be unlikely that an affair, or affair-like behavior, would continue.
And speaking of trust, since it is based on precisely the type of behavior we display, it naturally would cease to be an issue in a relationship where there exists a state of unconditional love between the partners. It is a matter of having faith in unconditional love long enough for it to "take hold" of both partners, at which time trust ceases to be an issue.
Regarding the issue of whether Unconditional Love takes "work or effort", it does to the extent that it is a mind-set change for us, and reaching the point of separating the person from their actions takes faith, will, and substantial introspection. Likewise, forgiving past behaviors, which we have to do if we are to unconditionally love them, take compassion, will and faith as well.
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</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Resilient: <strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by mthrrhbard, who was quoting Space Case, who in turn was quoting Baer: "Trust is NOT something that has 2 be earned, it is a gift. Insisting that trust must be earned may protect YOU from your Spouse's "bad behavior" (in our cases, ongoing As), but PROTECTION only serves 2 make you ALONE AND UNLOVED"</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This is not good. This statement IS me. I'm guarded regarding the opposite sex, trying to protect myself like Steve Harley has told me to do in order to properly heal. What do I need to do now so I won't be ALONE and UNLOVED? No one wants to end up this way. Lv, Jo</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">The theory behind that statement goes something like this: By being completely honest and open about our feelings, we create an environment of closeness, love and intimacy which tends to get us the same from those around us. Which means that they, too, are open and honest with us. By creating this environment, and the love that comes with it, we create a situation of happiness and joy that few of us have ever had before (if ever). So under this scenario, we don't feel alone or in pain, and we don't need protecing behaviors (like distrust) because there would be nothing hidden to be distrustful about. I can certailnly look up the more throurough explanation in the book, but this is the theory behind it.
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To answer CSue; Indeed, Unconditional Love is very much about spirituality and reaching into our higher self, and our connection with "the source" (G-d, Christ, The Grand Architect of the Universe, your choice). It is the essence of those higher ideals (Compassion, understanding, selflessness, etc.) we tend to forget as we attempt to fulfill the selfish demands of our ego and allow our lives and our actions to be ruled by it.
Unconditional Love is indeed, loving all our fellow beings (non-human included) equally, and in its "perfect" expression, would allow us to love the murderer as much as the "murdered".
However, when we have a special connection with a particular person such as our spouse, there are added elements and dimensions to that relationship which make it different from the relationship we may have with a stranger on the street. (Intimacy, history, knowledge of them and their life, etc.), Which does not mean that we don't unconditional love that stranger as well, we do. But we have the other added elements in our special relationships (spouse, children, close friends) which make it different. What we cannot do, if we are "living" unconditional love, is to only have unconditional love for a select few...that would not be "real".
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2long, 2long, 2long…
Thank you for the vocabulary lesson. I believe that I have misunderstood that word my entire life!
Let me set the stage! It’s a beautiful fall day in the high mountain desert. I live outside city limits in the Rio Grande Valley (fall colors are stunning). I’m on my daily 3-mile walk, Canadian Geese are flying in formation overhead, south for the winter. The sound of their call is mesmerizing. Normally my walk is meditative. Not quite today; you see I keep saying to myself over and over “attain or obtain??” Which is it?
Within reach on my desk is my Webster’s Dictionary. I have it close at hand because you see I have always struggled with spelling.
Unlike my older sister who was the entire school spelling bee champion, and who always did very well in the city spelling bee. She didn’t however win the city championship. No thankfully she didn't. She did make straight A’s in school all the way through college until her senior year. That year she got her 1st B, last semester. She was so distressed about that B, my mother had to drop everything and go to her rescue because she was threatening to drop out of school even though that meant she would have to repay the 4 year scholarship she earned academically, and forego her life long dream of being an RN. My mother was able to reason with her and my sister finished her senior year, graduating at the top of her class; scholarship secure. (Give me a break!!! She is still the perfectionist) and I am glad I am not this way!! This is what I reviewed during my normally peaceful walk. Are you laughing yet!!!
Thankfully not the entire walk!! The rest of the walk I spent thinking that I finally get what you and Space have been saying about unconditional love. Not only do I get it; I have actually practiced unconditional love, but not for a long time.
You see I had forgotten about the part where you separate the behavior and actions from the person. You CAN love someone unconditionally if you remember this important point. It also helps you when you get to the point when someone’s behavior and actions cause you so much pain that you can let them go peacefully with love. “Letting go with love” is a beautiful gift to give, especially if you can tell them so. It’s what I had to do when I finally divorced my first husband because his alcoholic behavior became more than what I could take. I loved him unconditionally and was able to “let him go with love” and tell him so too!
I had little grief/anxiety when I learned that he died last May at the age of 47. I knew that I did the very best that I could. And most importantly he did too.
Ok, back to attain or obtain. From what I can see in my Webster’s Dictionary, either could apply. Please correct me if I’m wrong!! Anyway hehehe…I’m going back to my beautiful peaceful day!! Thanks to you and Space for reminding me about unconditional love! CSue
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Space,
Thanks for the additional clarification. I have organized all of the MB posts I have copied to my hard drive. All the stuff on unconditional love will go in my person recovery file!! Thanks for not losing patience with me!! CSue
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</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Spacecase:
<strong>
Unconditional Love is indeed, loving all our fellow beings (non-human included) equally, and in its "perfect" expression, would allow us to love the murderer as much as the "murdered".
</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Don't want to fight, but I love a good debate.
So, wanna use a dictionary, or do you want to hear from someone who is doing it? This is the CRUX of my argument in favor of unconditional love.
It's NOT to every Tom, [censored] and human/animal and tree (although most animals and trees do happen into my U-Love vortex)... it's about this:
THIS IS HOW I FEEL TOWARD A PERSON.
It's so simple. Either you feel it or you don't. Why do we need a deep philosophecal discussion to determine what *I* already know in my heart?
Again, this is said with the upmost respect. I have no desire to hurt anyone. Just wanted to add that?
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Oh 2Long, you made me giggle! Ok, I know you are an atheist so the words of Christ in the bible don't mean anything to you but I've never seen a child call their female parent "Father". <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" /> Actually I'm not religious at all. For me it's not about religion but about a relationship. I also take full responsibility for my life and what happens in it. My God has a wonderful plan for me but it's fully up to me whether or not I choose that or not and it's fully up to me which road I take to get there if I choose the road at all! All the best to you!
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</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by new_beginning: <strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Spacecase: <strong> Unconditional Love is indeed, loving all our fellow beings (non-human included) equally, and in its "perfect" expression, would allow us to love the murderer as much as the "murdered". </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Don't want to fight, but I love a good debate. So, wanna use a dictionary, or do you want to hear from someone who is doing it? This is the CRUX of my argument in favor of unconditional love. It's NOT to every Tom, [censored] and human/animal and tree (although most animals and trees do happen into my U-Love vortex)... it's about this: THIS IS HOW I FEEL TOWARD A PERSON. It's so simple. Either you feel it or you don't. Why do we need a deep philosophecal discussion to determine what *I* already know in my heart? Again, this is said with the upmost respect. I have no desire to hurt anyone. Just wanted to add that?</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Sorry to disagree, NB, but if it is based on (your words) "HOW I FEEL TOWARD A PERSON", then it's NOT unconditional, it is conditioned on how you feel. And that's using either a dictionary definition, or any other definition you'd like to use. Unconditional is just that: "without condition", if there is ANY condition, no matter how broad or generous, it's still a condition. Furthermore, the second part of the definition, as we have been using it here states "without expecting anything in return". According to your definition, you are expecting to feel xxx about them in return, so double-whammy! What you are feeling/doing is NOT unconditional. <small>[ November 03, 2002, 08:30 PM: Message edited by: Spacecase ]</small>
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CSue;
If you'd like, email me and I'll point you to more...
Oh, and just to clarify, in case anyone's thinking that I or anyone else posting here IS unconditionally loving all the time, no. We are still human, and we are still governed by our emotions (to greater or lesser degrees), etc. So it is simply a desirable goal that one has to work on to attain, and the more aware we are of it, and our own feelings/emotions/reactions, the better we become at doing it. It is, though, a conscious decision, NOT an emotion.
<small>[ November 03, 2002, 08:49 PM: Message edited by: Spacecase ]</small>
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</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Spacecase:
<strong>Sorry to disagree, NB, but if it is based on (your words) "HOW I FEEL TOWARD A PERSON", then it's NOT unconditional, it is conditioned on how you feel. And that's using either a dictionary definition, or any other definition you'd like to use.
Unconditional is just that: "without condition", if there is ANY condition, no matter how broad or generous, it's still a condition.
Furthermore, the second part of the definition, as we have been using it here states "without expecting anything in return". According to your definition, you are expecting to feel xxx about them in return, so double-whammy! What you are feeling/doing is NOT unconditional.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">YES! I see what you mean now - in terms of a definition. But can I say that I UNconditionally love some very unlovable people, IN SPITE of what needs they meet (or don't) and IN SPITE of their treatment of me?
I do thoroughly understand what you're saying, especially putting it to the Agape test... but... for me... I am speaking of people I know. Specifically.
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