Amazing, isn't it, USH? One would imagine that reality hits...sometime! But I guess it doesn't always.
I suspect there are a great many people who go on and on like that; live their lives out in victimhood, always convinced of others being responsible for all of their misfortunes or lack of happiness...and feeling they are right; that the world has never understood them.

I know I love her, and I will always love her. Love does not die easy. (I'll vouch for that!). But I also know now that I can let her go. And I have the feeling that this is exactly what was intended for us. Somehow I feel like our love isn't over; but is now, perhaps, Complete.

I'm not sure how long I've been around here, but it seems like forever. I feel like I "know" so many people...I have this picture in my mind of so many...

I'll be around. This isn't the end of my path at MB. There's still a lot of SC's story, I'm sure. Besides, you KNOW I don't give up easily... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

SC:

We musta posted at the same time

Hi Space,

You have grown so much in the year you've been here! I hear acceptance in your words instead of frustrated attempts to control.

How fortunate for your children to have the example of growth in the face of adversity!

I have no idea, TZ. I don't see another confrontation as necessary or productive in any way.
She might believe that I don't know about continued contact (since I haven't said anything about it), but what difference would it make if I did?
I'm through because I deserve to be loved the way I would like to think I have loved her; in the best way I knew how, giving all of me, and always doing what I thought was best for us, her, and the kids. With all my heart, with all my commitment, and with all my energy. And with all the truth, warts and all. (At least as I knew it then).
I just want to be loved, and I just want to be with a comitted partner who will do her best as well. That's all. It doesn't have to be perfect, it's not a storybook love; just real, honest, true. Warts and all.
And I simply do not believe D's capable of it, or desires to try. She's too scared; and she's sure that what scares her is me, so she cannot allow herself to be exposed to what might hurt her again. I can't fight that...I can't change that.

BrambleRose...oh, boy!
OK, confession: A few months back you posted something to the effect of "Get your act together, SC, get off this board and go get your act together!" and when you did, I was actually hurt by it. So much so, that I said "I'm outta here! I don't need this xxxx!" and I did leave, pretty much.
And I did get my act together, with a lot of help from others here and elsewhere. And yes, there is acceptance in all of my words and in my heart now.
And I now realize I owe you my thanks for that "spanking" you gave me some time back. I needed it, and it's one of the best things that happened to me.
My sincere thanks, and my apologies for the nasty thoughts I had at the time. I mean that.

All my love.

SC:

I guess I should fess out. The 2uestion... ...I mean the QUESTION you answered wasn't as important to me as the one you didn't. And that is, everybody: "Is it true that the WS will always try to keep the OP around in some capacity unless "forced" to choose to give them up, via a plan B or DV "threat?""

I hope not, and feel that my W is about to make SOME "good" decision, but it doesn't happen... Am I being impatient, or do I need to be more firm than I am being (and I think I'm being pretty firm, but loving at the same time)?

I wouldn't know how to answer that question, really. Perhaps someone has done a poll on that...
I would presume that in the early stages post DDay most WSs might want to try to keep the OP in the picture in some fashion, but my guess is most who are serious about recovery would soon realize that is impossible. But this is just my WAG on that...other takers for TZ's question?

Oh Space ~

I am so sorry that my words back then hurt you. I am often far too harsh in how I word things.

I just knew that if you stayed here, posting about your wife in numerous daily posts, that you would never grow and heal and find Space!

You've grown so much - you really should be proud of yourself!

As to TZ's question....

I have seen very few solid, successful recoveries that just kind of slowly happen. Without some clear boundaries set in place by the BS, I don't think real recovery can happen.

I think that often, Steve insists on that boundary setting (Plan B). And its a scary place to go and its a scary place to stay. And too often the BS not only doesn't do Plan B, or leaves it too quickly, but then again, in fear, does what he/she can do to appease the WS to keep them from totally cutting them out.

The result is, the WS gets few real consequences while the BS suffers on the sidelines. Selfishness prevails and there is absolutely no motivation to work on the marriage.

My recovery happened when I became willing to completely cut my husband out of my life and move on. I say this with a disclaimer: Without acceptance, "moving on" will not help. I don't want a bunch of new BSes to read what I am saying here and think that the best way to get their spouse back is to "move on", because that moving on will be destructive to everyone involved. Now do you see Space, why it was so hard for me to explain acceptance to you? You were very impatient with the concept so many months ago!

I think that "We teach others how to treat us." And the WS continues contact and floats along in the marriage without attempt at recovery because they can. As long as the BS is reacting to the fear that they will drive away the WS....the WS remains in control of the entire scenario. Why would a WS change that?

A BS with confidence, protecting himself/herself and acting with self-respect, is the fastest way to get a WS into recovery.

BR;
Thank you for your wise words. I wish I could validate them, but unfortunately, I cannot, as I did not take that route.
I, like many of the WSs you describe, took the "keep the contact" route, subconsciously out of fear perhaps, but consciously out of the belief that loving and not punishing would be the more positive route.
But I certainly cannot at this point validate that either, since in my case, at least, it has not worked.
But whatever the case in terms of recovery, certainly I have grown and learned and in many ways become a very different person than I was before (even though my W says she does not see that at all!), but I know I have and that is what matters.
So I guess the only lesson I can draw from this is to say that I did not do the "MB way" right, and tried other things in combination, and for my marriage, it did not work. But I did what I felt was right at the time, (and franky if I had to do it again, I would probably do it much the same), and in the end, doing what we feel is right IS the right way to go, regardless of the outcome.
It is said that "there is nothing scary about life if we are not attached to results", and I guess that for me, THIS has been the valuable lesson; to have no expectations, and to be prepared to be happy with the outcome anyway.

And that is really where I am. I have no regrets, I have no shame for anything I did, and I can say I did the best I knew how with what I had. And that is all anyone can do.
Sadness? yes. Wishes? yes. But no regrets.
And I also have the satisfaction of having been an excellent example to my children, and to have shown them that we can face difficult times with dignity, strength and honor, and that in the process, regardless of the results, we grow and become better human beings. And to me, THAT is more important than the results.

I guess I must add that this is not over yet. While I will be filing for DV, and I doubt there's much my W will do about that, one never knows what new surprises may be in store for us. And like K or JL said to me a couple of pages back, and others have said numerous times, filing for DV CAN be a great catalyst for recovery.

<small>[ January 09, 2003, 09:52 PM: Message edited by: Spacecase ]</small>

It is very much a spiritual journey. The M recovery has to come 2nd to the personal growth and recovery. Growing is painful. I am so NOT the woman I was prior the A ... during the A ... or during those awful first 2 years in "recovery" ... which did not feel like recovery at all ... more like daily combat ...me facing a well armed adversary with a slingshot. It turned out the well-armed adversary was myself ... I was at war with myself.

Mr. Pepper recovered faster than I did ... and that PISSED me off .... and that was myself at war with myself.

making NO sense whatsoever ... but happily typing away .... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" /> Pepper

<small>[ January 09, 2003, 10:50 PM: Message edited by: Pepperband ]</small>

I'd put it in perhaps even stronger terms; It is EXACTLY about Spiritual Growth and it is ONLY about battling with ourselves. The WS is but the catalyst in all of this.

Pepster:

I think you make excellent sense... And I've had exactly no more than one road pop all day!

I was concerned with all this, and how SC's current position relates to my question precisely because I feel CLOSE to acceptance, but maybe not quite there yet. And, if it's any consolation to me, when I get my W to talk about RM, I mean OM, she is honest and what she says is consistent with how I feel the "vibes" coming from her. And frankly, if she weren't interested in being honest with me, why would she even tell me that OM asked her to move in with him during the holidays when his W was off with HER OM on vacation? A gross, messy, icky state of affairs, to be sure.

So, that fact, and the fact that I CAN state my boundaries without fear, and lately ALMOST without any anxiety over the consequences of MY decisions... PLUS some really cool positives in our interactions - a level of closeness that I've not felt in over 12 years, probably more like 20... all these things have me curious about the statistics as to how many BSs have succeded in restoring their Ms without forcing the WS to wake up, but allowing them to wake up on their own.

Make no mistake, I still don't have a NC agreement, and don't know if I can get one without an adherence to the MB plans, but I have to wonder, based on how I've been doing and how my WW has been doing, particularly of late, if it just might be possible in this case.

I followed SC's story pretty closely since sometime last spring, and I must agree that if I were in his shoes (and our shoes may be more similar than not), I would have tried to rebuild just the way he did... ...and you know, except for my only trying plan B for a week, I have done things similarly - though I'll never be able to read as much as SC has!! I don't think this particular outcome (not that it's over) is necessarily how it will turn out for me, either, but I'd certainly welcome input on this. Input on how all y'all (plural of y'all) think ol'... I mean T-zero is freakin' doin? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" />

Plan A until your butt aches T-Zoro. Take your wounded pride and feed him some chocolate (or road pops) to make him shuddup whilst you plan A a bit more.

Pep is pooped. I'm doing one of my clinics tomorrow ... gotta rest up.

goodnite all you bootiful peeps

Space, I hope that you didn't think I was critizing how you handled things with your wife.

None of this stuff comes with a guaranteed result. I've know MBers who've done everything that Steve told them, and still ended up divorced.

I don't consider those people, or you, a failure. In fact, you are a success - because Pepper is exactly right - its a spiritual journey - and its how you go about "Surviving an Affair". I sometimes remind people that the title of the book is not: How to get your Spouse to come home and stop cheating and work on the marriage!"

You did do the very best you could at the time with what you knew and understood. I don't think anyone who watched your posts could argue with that.

And that ultimately is what counts. Btw, I loved your definition of acceptance: "there is nothing scary about life if we are not attached to results" This is exactly the place that each of us has to reach! Learning to make reality based decisions without trying to force a specific outcome was the hardest thing I ever did.

Only one small point I do want to address tho about choosing not to Plan B:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
but consciously out of the belief that loving and not punishing would be the more positive route.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><sigh> Ok. I do think that YOU understand that plan B is not about punishing the WS, right? I'm only pointing this out because I don't want newcomers to get confused. I am going to assume that you meant that your wife saw it as a punishment.

In a perfect world, the BS should understand that in drawing a healthy boundary, the others are responsible for their own reactions and feelings about it. Plan B is very much a consequence, and is meant to be an unpleasant consequence, for the WS, and a protection for the BS. It's not meant as a punishment however.

Sometimes, love means stepping out of the way and letting life happen to the other spouse. I think the hardest lesson I learned from my Al-Anon sponsor was that my "loving" behavior was often terribly harmful to my husband because it created a comfortable environment for his unacceptable behavior. She spanked me pretty hard on that many times!

I agree, maybe a divorce will wake up your wife. But be very sure that "waking up your wife" is NOT the desired outcome - otherwise you'll just be setting yourself up for more anger and pain. Let go of those results and do what is best for Spacecase right now.

Dear Space:

I have followed your story and have found you to be an inspiration. You have provided valuable lessons to your children.

It seems to me the actions you are taking now are out of love for yourself and others.

The path you have walked and the place of acceptance you have reached is exactly what MB is all about. I pray that your journey will also help your wife recover from her self imposed exile and embrace her own life and her own power to change and create it.

God Bless you and your family as you continue your lifes path.

All my best

Jack

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by BrambleRose:
Space, I hope that you didn't think I was critizing how you handled things with your wife.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I did not; I was simply making the statement that I didn't follow that path, so I could not validate it.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">None of this stuff comes with a guaranteed result. I've know MBers who've done everything that Steve told them, and still ended up divorced.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I think this is (or should be) clear to everyone here. There are no guarantees.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You did do the very best you could at the time with what you knew and understood. I don't think anyone who watched your posts could argue with that.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This is correct, and I intuitively knew it all along. Accepting that was easy. What was not as easy was understanding and accepting that my W was doing (is doing) exactly the same thing!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Btw, I loved your definition of acceptance: "there is nothing scary about life if we are not attached to results"</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I wish I could take credit for that one, but it's out of "Conversations With God"

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Only one small point I do want to address tho about choosing not to Plan B:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
but consciously out of the belief that loving and not punishing would be the more positive route.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><sigh> Ok. I do think that YOU understand that plan B is not about punishing the WS, right? I'm only pointing this out because I don't want newcomers to get confused. I am going to assume that you meant that your wife saw it as a punishment.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You are correct; I knew and know that Plan B is not meant as punishment or to reach a desired result. But my W saw it that way. As it is,
today, she says that many of the "actions" I took after DDay have hurt her even more... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Sometimes, love means stepping out of the way and letting life happen to the other spouse. I think the hardest lesson I learned from my Al-Anon sponsor was that my "loving" behavior was often terribly harmful to my husband because it created a comfortable environment for his unacceptable behavior. She spanked me pretty hard on that many times!</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This is SO true! I know now that much of my W's behaviors (especially those around money) are probably due in large part to my "protecting" her from the consequences for many years. There are probably many more, but this is VERY tue.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I agree, maybe a divorce will wake up your wife. But be very sure that "waking up your wife" is NOT the desired outcome - otherwise you'll just be setting yourself up for more anger and pain. Let go of those results and do what is best for Spacecase right now.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Absolutely. In fact, my MIL asked me what I'd do if she "changed her mind", and after thinking about it a bit, I told her it would probably take an almost miraculous turn-around in attitude on her part for me to even consider it.

Thanks, BR.

<small>[ January 10, 2003, 09:03 AM: Message edited by: Spacecase ]</small>

SC:

Yep, all things considered, I think you've got it now.

Pep. I'll hold on for some time longer, because i don't "got it" yet. I can feel that. At the same time, I don't intend to let my W feel "comfortable" because I'm protecting and allowing her secret second life to continue.

twodles,
-Qfwfq

TZ;
You KNOW this was not the outcome I was after. In fact it is exactly the opposite of that. However, during the process, it just...happens.

I couln't possible tell you how, when, or why. One day it just did. I knew.

And although I thought about it many times before, the day I really KNEW was the day when I knew that it was the best thing for my W as well. When I felt it was the loving thing for her too. When nothing but positive desires for her became a part of me.

And although I hope that day doesn't come for you at all, if it does, you will know.

SC,

Been gone traveling the last few days. When reading the posts here, I keep coming back to something my mother used to tell my sisters and I when we really got her mad. "I will always love you, but I don't have to like you."

Somehow, I think that is where you are. You have come to the place where there is love still there, but you don't like the person you are married to.

You cannot change that. Only she can if she so desired.

I think that is really the difference between your sitch and TZ's. His W has made some effort to be someone he likes to be around. Your W hasn't. TZ's W may or maynot give up contact with her OM, but I sense he does like her and she likes him.

I think you should file and move on. I think it was Pepper that stated she needed to "crash and go boom". You cannot live your W's life for her; Only yours my man.

God Bless,

JL

Everything is in Divine Order

To make the point I want to make, it's important to first tell you how I reached it.
This is going to sound funny, but I was sitting on the john in the kids' bathroom, and in front of it, my kids keep this basket with magazines, newspapers, books. S in particular keeps the books I've given him there. (Don't ask me why!). Anyway, very casually I picked up "A Primer of Jungian Psychology", randomly opened it and started reading...this is part of what I read:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">The self is the central archetype in the collective unconscious, much as the sun is the center of the solar system. The self is the archetype of order, organization, and unification; it draws to itself and harmonizes all the archetypes and their manifestations in complexes and consciousness. It unites the personality, giving it a sense of "oneness" and firmness.

When a person says he feels in harmony with himself and with the world, we can be sure that the self archetype is performing its work effectively.

The ultimate goal of every personality is to achieve a state of selfhood and self-realization. This is not a simple undertaking, but a very lengthy, difficult, and complicated task which is rarely, if ever, completely achieved by anyone. Great religious leaders like Jesus and Buddha come closest to having achieved it. As Jung points out, the self archetype does not even become evident until about middle age, since the personality must become fully developed through individuation before the self can become manifest with any degree of completeness.

...Knowledge of the self is accessible through the study of one's dreams. More importantly, through true religious experiences one can understand and realize the self.

...self-knowledge is the path to to self-realization...

By making conscious that which is unconscious, man can live in harmony with his own nature. He will experience fewer irritations and frustrations because he recognizes their origin in his own unconscious. A person who does not know his unconscious self projects the repressed elements of his unconscious on others. He accuses them of his own unrecognized faults, thus criticizing and condemning them, while all the time he is really projecting an unconscious part of himself. Self-awareness exposes these projections, and he is no longer compelled to seek victims to criticize and scorn. His relationships with people improve and he feels more in harmony with them and with himself.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">And that's when it hit me. That is EXACTLY why this is truly about spiritual growth. THAT is exactly the connection between two elements that we so often consider separate and distinct; psychology and spirituality. Through both we attempt to reach the same destination, albeit via different paths, but in the end, the destination is exactly the same one. And perhaps more importantly, it is the journey there (via any of the paths) and not the destination itself, which is what brings us to the understanding and acceptance, and thus the "harmony" which we seek.

Spirituality gives us the path, psychology gives us the more "logical" explanation, which we can more easily absorb and comprehend.

Very wise words, those of Sri Ramakrishna, when he said; </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">"As many faiths, so many paths," which echoes the ancient words of Vedanta, "Truth is one, sages call It by different names"</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">If there's anything that I can use to describe the process through which I have gone, this is perhaps the best I have found yet.

And don't discount the way things happened for me to reach this conclusion this morning. All things are in divine order, and unfolding according to a divine plan...

All My Love!
Spacecase