SC,

I am rendered speechless (doesn't happen often) by reading your post. I'm still smiling at the profound experience you had sitting on the kids john. (different reading material in my kids john!!)

It gave me the kind of "ka-boom" I needed to have this morning to see my situation through new glasses. I've read this board for 1 hour longer than I intended. I couldn't quit reading. I have more thoughts for you later; but for now I'm speechless! Blessings, CSue

ROTFLOL!!!!

Believe me! There IS other reading material in the kids' john here as well! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

Welcome Grasshopper. We have been awaiting your arrival...

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

<small>[ January 10, 2003, 04:25 PM: Message edited by: Gibby1 ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Spacecase:
<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by CSue:
<strong>Space,

I thought of your wife too when I read JL's response on P's thread.

What concerns me for her (and I don't even know her) that it has to be destructive for her to be carrying out this deceit. At some level she knows exactly that she is being dishonest with herself. That to me is the ultimate betrayal.

I am glad she has you even if the time comes only as a friend to be there for her. I imagine the longer she waits - the harder she'll fall. Blessings, CSue</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You've just expressed one of my worst fears. It is, to a great extent, this very scary thought that has kept me going here for a while...

I'll hate to see the love of my life crash and burn like that. As will my children. A very scary thought.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Ok, I'm over being speechless! Just had to pull up my word document where I copy my most favorite posts and add to it big time today! Whew, then I can go back and digest in smaller doses!!

Regarding one of your worst fears noted above. Naw...she'll be fine and you know it; because you'll be there for her in some form whatever happens, whenever it happens. There's some peace in that.

The only person/thing you can't protect her from is herself. And it's the efforts to break the consequences of her fall that is damaging to you. Besides as we've discussed before - only she knows what she is here in this lifetime to learn. Any interference to her lesson just stands in the way of her growth. At some level she does know what her lessons are in this lifetime.

Your kids and you have YOU! That's the good news. Kind of reminds me something about good customer service. You can't prevent problems from happening - therefore "the win" is in how you resolve the problem to the customer's satisfaction. That's your chance to wow them. In a sense we're all customers of each other in this life - just different levels of customers, depending on the relationship.

Finally, as I'm fond of saying - "We teach what we need most to learn". Blessings, CSue

<small>[ January 10, 2003, 04:46 PM: Message edited by: CSue ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Gibby1:
<strong>Welcome Grasshopper. We have been awaiting your arrival...

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You have? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />

JL:

"I think that is really the difference between your sitch and TZ's. His W has made some effort to be someone he likes to be around. Your W hasn't. TZ's W may or maynot give up contact with her OM, but I sense he does like her and she likes him."

Thanks, JL. This does sum up the diff, here. I love and like my W very much. And it's the W that I like that I want to jerk a knot upside the haid of from time to time for staying in contact with OM even after the breakup of his family. But I'll love her, even if we end up DV'd if she insists, like some kind of Australopithef***, on keeping OM as a "friend" long term. Such is the difference between conditional and unconditional love.

Everybody is right, when they tell me to hang on. During the worst of times these days, it feels like a pretty weird way to live. But during the best of times when we're together, it's... ...well, it's best! And so, I acknowledge that the difference is that my W is "trying". The effort may be pitiful, but it's effort nonetheless! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

"quote:
The self is the central archetype in the collective unconscious, much as the sun is the center of the solar system. "

Oh, $h!+. No wonder I'm so screwed up! And THAT must be why Mars apparitions are 26 months apart! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by CSue:
<strong>Ok, I'm over being speechless!</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You didn't tell us why you were speechless...

<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
The only person/thing you can't protect her from is herself. And it's the efforts to break the consequences of her fall that is damaging to you. Besides as we've discussed before - only she knows what she is here in this lifetime to learn. Any interference to her lesson just stands in the way of her growth. At some level she does know what her lessons are in this lifetime.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Hmmm...I'm not so sure she even KNOWS there ARE lessons to be learned here...
But you're right. I cannot interfere, and it has been damaging to me to try to shield her from the reality.

<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
Finally, as I'm fond of saying - "We teach what we need most to learn". Blessings, CSue </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Amen! One of my very favorite truths! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by T-zero:
<strong>JL:

Everybody is right, when they tell me to hang on. During the worst of times these days, it feels like a pretty weird way to live. But during the best of times when we're together, it's... ...well, it's best! And so, I acknowledge that the difference is that my W is "trying". The effort may be pitiful, but it's effort nonetheless! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I just hope that it isn't that I'm being so dense that I cannot "see" that my W is putting in SOME effort, however pitiful...

TZ (and anyone else interested): Updated Plan A/B description by Harley: What Are Plan A and Plan B?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by T-zero:
<strong>"quote:
The self is the central archetype in the collective unconscious, much as the sun is the center of the solar system. "

Oh, $h!+. No wonder I'm so screwed up! And THAT must be why Mars apparitions are 26 months apart! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">ROTFLOL!!! I just KNEW, as I typed that particular phrase, that you would probably give me a technical lesson on why that IS NOT the case! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

)John39:

Hm... It looks like the same description of the plans that I read last summer. But I think my point is that, in my case, plan B didn't "work" because I didn't lose any love I have for my W. Or maybe it DID work because I realized that I love my W unconditionally, and so if anything I was losing respect for her as a W, not love.

My sitch is also not typical of most BSs and the affairees. My W hasn't seen her OM in about 15 months or more now. And, she truly is showing signs of "trying" to "come back" to the M. Sure, she wants the cake, frosting and all, but she is trying and she is reminded, semifrequently by me, that she can't have her cake and ingest it as well for long.

In the end, maybe it's not so much whether or not I agree with the nitty gritty definitions and requirements for plan B, maybe it's just that I can put thoughts of it aside so that I can perform the best plan A possible instead. Or at least for the forseeable future (and I forsee stuff on a month-by-month timeframe at the longest! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> ). Part of me WANTS to do that, for sure, but mostly I know it's the right thing for me to do for now.

T-Zorroman ...

For the record ... I never for one moment considered you to have been in plan B...... For my money, you were on a sabatical/vacation/retreat for one week. It had "emotional firedrill" written all over it from the very beginning.

Pep <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

Pepper:

Oh que. I sit corrected!

So, I just hope I never have to find out what plan B is like firsthand, then. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

-Qfwfq

I never planned B either ... I did a plan-P of long-distance torture and seduction simultaneously <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

P <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

Daw gone it! I posted, my wireless dropped me, and I lost my post when I tried to refresh!

Very unrefreshedly: So, Pep, how did you do this? You "tortured" your H, right? Or the OW? (and if the latter, can you recommend any legal methods of torture that I might be able to employ on a certain Australopithef*** in **, USA?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Gibby1:
Welcome Grasshopper. We have been awaiting your arrival...


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

You have?

</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Sorry Space - after reading your post and especially these words...

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
Posted by Spacecase:
it is the journey there (via any of the paths) and not the destination itself, which is what brings us to the understanding and acceptance, </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">...it hit me like the King Fu show when David Carradine went back to his childhood and remembered some important message from his master.

I too have made such a journey and I see others making that journey here on these boards. You were so right that the destination is not the prize. It is the result of the journey (self improvement) that truly is a treasure.

Gib

I tortured H .... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> The man's crazy about me ... and I can get away with it! The torture and the seduction were simultaneous .... yin/yang ... donald/daisy ... mickey/minnie .... moe/curley .... white/rice....

Pep <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

Gib:

"...it hit me like the King Fu show when David Carradine went back to his childhood and remembered some important message from his master.

I too have made such a journey and I see others making that journey here on these boards. You were so right that the destination is not the prize. It is the result of the journey (self improvement) that truly is a treasure."

Such knowledge is worth more than any fortune, Cookie! (I ripped that one off an old 7-Up commercial, that ran when the original Kung Fu was on the Lobotomy Box).

-Qfwfq

Pep:

Well, shoot, then. I can't very well torture my W that way. She used to use my "abilities" in that area as an excuse for NOT getting close. Like it was "controlling" and "fleeting." But that was some months ago, thank goodness.