Nick,

In a word, WOW!

It sounds like your wife is beginning to wake up. Hopefully this is the start of a breakthrough. That said, don't get too secure in it. She may retreat back into the fog, rather than face very painful feelings about herself.

Ultimately she has a choice. She can face what has happened and make amends, show regret. Or she can continue to mistreat you. I think it is a big step that she is recognizing that it is mistreatment.

Be careful to avoid self righteousness. I would try to limit your R discussions with her to within the confines of the MC's office. Don't put her in a position of becoming defensive.

Just curious, in the conversation about each other's good qualities, what did you list as your W's good qualities?

Sounds like the two steps forward one step back. Only that one step back seems like two sometimes. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> But I have to say that from reading these posts, it seems like there are baby steps being taken in the right direction. Keep on making it "safe" for her to come out of the fog. Keep on keeping on.

PORSCHE - yes, the guilt anvil came crashing down. Big time. Is running easier? Yess! Of course (am a marathon runner)! But what shall I do when I've crossed the finishing line?
LUKI - thanks for the encouragement. 2 steps forward, 1 step back. At least not the other way around, isnt it! Or is it.
ESPOIR - Don&#8217;t worry - I'm not too secure in this. I think what happened was that she decided to show me, for a brief second, her inner feelings. That window is sort of closed again now. I thanked her the next day and said how much I appreciated that she opened up & what she said - that it meant much to me. She didn&#8217;t acknowledge or discuss it further though. As if she was embarrassed to having shown her weaker side. I'm also not self righteous, at least I hope that's what my signals look like. However, having said that, it does feel good to receive *some* tiny wee acknowledgment that yes, Nick123 too, may have feelings also, and no, what WW did was wrong.
Re the qualities I told her she had: the bottom line is that she was (still is) attractive, smart, has an admirable profession and is very good at it, GSOH, cultured, emotionally very clued up, and she can (if she wants) be very tender and attentive, and is of course a terrific mom. At the same time she has got a strong personality and will (which is her only quality here which is a bit of a double edged sword. All other qualities are still very much all there and present)

You also write:
<strong>
Ultimately she has a choice. She can face what has happened and make amends, show regret. Or she can continue to mistreat you. I think it is a big step that she is recognizing that it is mistreatment.
</strong>

I'm afraid but you forget the obvious third option: that she says "sorry for hurting you", call it a day and walk. Unfortunately, this is still on the table, very much so.

In fact, it became painfully clear in yesterday's MC session. The MC finally came round again to ask about "his mandate" and the "goal of this exercise". Similarly, he mentioned that we had 3 options: a) continue as is, b) try & make it work, c) separate (amicably, if possible, without hurting our child). I said: easy! I want to try & make it work. If the process turns out to be "life as is" (ie, she assaulting me verbally, myself being hurt constantly) then separation is preferable, even with all the pain involved. But "as is" is definitely not a sustainable option. Guess what my WW's answer was? "I don&#8217;t know". She said, she wanted to separate BUT she didn&#8217;t want to hurt me in the process. Well, told the MC, you have to accept it that if you separate that Nick123 is being hurt, in fact he already is hurt. MC asked: Do you at least want to consider that trying is an option? Again: "I don&#8217;t know, I'm not sure".
Not very encouraging, or is it. It's almost like the best solution for her was to split but at the same time me being happy and "recognising that we are not made for each other", "that we are too different". Well, she can't convince me, that's for sure. And you know what: I take rejection very badly, no sweet-talk in this world will mitigate that. At the same time (as we discussed with the MC), WW does send different signals, like organising family vacation (what for, if she wants to get out???), or, inviting me to the cinema (dito), but yet again, rejecting my outreached hand, my affectionate advances and hurting me big time when she feels like. Will discuss the "mandate" thing in the next MC session&#8230; wont force R talks for the moment, but you know what, I feel like the Damocles sword of separation is hanging above my neck, and motivation for doing the cheerie motivated plan A routine is just so tough - my thoughts keep returning to the if, when and how.

Thanks for listening to my rambling. Have a good evening.

Hey Nick

Well, yes, two steps one step scenario seems to fit well here!

I know how hard it is to keep taking forward the small positives when there are so many huge clanger negatives!!! But there are - admitting that she has treated you badly (huge step actually, but can she work forward with this now?), going to MC, booking family holiday etc. All signs, but I keep coming back to the same thing, there needs to be more, and how long can you hold out and carry on like this for? Only you know the answer to this one, but try and focus on the positive and stick with it.

Wishing you well from North London.

Lisa

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Not very encouraging, or is it. It's almost like the best solution for her was to split but at the same time me being happy and "recognising that we are not made for each other", "that we are too different". Well, she can't convince me, that's for sure. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I don't think this is bad. She is showing some signs of the struggle within.

Sounds similar to my W. She is trying to have you make the decision so it is easy for her. You have got the right attitude. Keep making it safe for her.

Brief update on my situation here. Bottom line: we're still living under one roof, we're still in counselling, we're still talking to each other and, once in a while we're even going out together, and contact with OM is definitely over (I think) for the 3rd month and counting. So far, so good.
However, WW still doesn&#8217;t open up, still rejects each and every of my advances and good gestures. And, after the brief episode from last week when she called me crying how bad & guilty she feels, her attitude is now "back to normal" in that she says, even in front of MC, that at the time she thought it well through whether to have an affair ("don&#8217;t call it an affair - it was different". Well, we can call it a green elephant, dear, but it's still an affair, duh!) and came to the conclusion that "it was the right thing to do", "that she felt entitled to it", and: that "she still thinks now that it was right (but technically speaking, yes, it was wrong)". Bottom line: she isn't sorry, je ne regrette rien, rien de rien (for those who know the Edith Piaf song).
On a similar note, she is still not sure whether she wants our relationship to give a try or not. MC observed well she is now waiting for something, judging the quality of a relationship into which she refuses to engage. In fact, the other day at the MC, we talked about how we feel, and I said how much I crave for physical touch, affection etc etc - after which she got a fit and stated she *cant* give me that. Well - *cant* or *don&#8217;t want*? From my perspective it's either way, as I'm rejected anyway. Maybe I'm paranoid to think that it's more of a 'don&#8217;t want' issue rather than a 'cant'. Anyhow. For how long will this agony go on? I feel pretty much alone, and feel that way already for some years (since her affair started, in fact). There must be more to life than that, surely? So&#8230;. I reckon I hang in for another while, do the good and right things, turn the other cheek. But eventually, if nothing changes, I will be driven away, and then WW got the decision she was always waiting for.

Morning Nick

I'm sorry to hear how rejected you feel. I think I can understand that, because that's how I felt last night. If you could pop in to my thread with any words of advice I'd appreciate it. Anyway, back to you.....

I know I go back to the set yourself a time limit thing, but in some ways I think you should. When I first came to MB, JL suggested I should give myself 6 months and then see where I was and whether I really could give H and my M a go. I know this is somewhat in reverse, because obviously, it is your FWW who is not making the commitment etc., but I think there is only so much of any one thing that any one person can put up with. So, a couple of questions

How long are you prepared to forgo affection from your W?
Can you make your M work if she does not truly regret the A (this must be a very big thing)
What about the way that she treats you (and has admitted that she does), will this continue in your M?

Of course, a lot of these issues are down to the changes that your W must make, but if she is not prepared to, you may need to decide where you go with it.

On the other side of the coin, there is no longer an OM - HURRAH!!!!, and your W is probably still in withdrawal. 3 months isn't terribly long. You are going out from time to time. You do go to MC (I'd give anything for that), so at least you can both speak openly in a safe environmnet. She hasn't left (although she says there's no hope), and actually makes plans for you as a family (the holiday etc.). All, good positive signs.

I'm no expert on this Nick, but I guess there has to be a time when you can't keep giving it your all with little or no return. Have you had a phone session with the Harleys? I know Neil did a couple and thought it was very worthwhile (although not cheap). Maybe a different angle would help you to get things in a different light/perspective.

Anyway, take care and wishing you well from very cold, but slightly brighter North London.

Lisa