OOPPS !!! I meant us the BS !!!

Maw- You are right... I don't want him back as is... IF he changes... MAYBe- and that is a strong maybe at this point... frankly, I think I can do better alone, and definitely find a man willing to work hard... RIGHT? This finding out about the 1300 a mo. in unemploy. for almost a yr. blows my mind... i truly believe he has refused to work a good job so he can just Survive and skim on that.. and let us have it rough, while he enjoys the FREE LIFE... UGH. It makes me ill.

Thanks mAw and everyone...nduli- sp? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" /> H

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
BA quoted me:
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I suspect that they have interfered, bossed, controlled and manipulated you and your husband to the point that he will NOT come home to face that again.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I suggest that in the counseling, acknowledge and affirm the problems that your parents may have caused...
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

BR,

I know it's easy to blame others for our situations, especially our parents, but Honey is accountable for her own actions. She is a big girl. Honey has allowed her parents to be overly involved in her life so why should they not feel obligated to control it. They must feel that she is apparently incapable of controlling it herself or she would have weaned herself from them years ago.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">ba ~

Did you actually read my post - or did you just take a couple of things out of context to pick at? I haven't let Honey off the hook for the things she is responsible for at any point.

I wasn't really interested in assigning blame. Blame gets you absolutely no where fast. What I was interested in was in sharing my own experience, strength and hope regarding difficult, controlling parents and learning to draw boundaries.

If you want to start assigning responsiblity here, I'm going to disagree with you. Honey's parents are responsible for their controlling, unacceptable behavior that has caused many problems in Honey's marriage. Honey has absolutely no power over their behavior.

What Honey DOES bear responsiblity for is how she chose to react, and how she chose to (or chose not to) draw boundaries that protected herself, and her husband.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Until YOU can show the ability to stand on your own two feet you can expect to be controlled by your parents. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Honey doesn't have to show or prove anything to her parents. Really.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I'm sure I'll get a little backlash from this comment but, so long as your parents are contributing to your life by providing you with money, food, shelter, babysitting services, etc. they have every right to have a say in how you lead your life. If you don't like it...wean yourself from them and be accountable for yourself. The situation you are in is no ones fault but your own.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Huh? I'm going to disagree strongly. Giving Honey support does NOT give them the right to have a say in what she does with her life. She is an adult, not a minor child. In fact, I'd say rather that if they don't like what she is doing, they don't have to support her.

Oh and ba...I've never met anyone who willingly walked into marriage with an alcoholic with full understanding of what that means.

Yes, Honey has made plenty of choices that she is now reaping the consequences....but you seem to be taking some kind of pleasure out of forcefully hitting her over the head with it.

Honey has grown TREMENDOUSLY in the last year. She is actually listening and learning - which is NOT what she was doing many months ago. Why are you beating her up?

Do you have some experience, some strength, or some hope in your own life that you can share with her? Or just critize?

I'd like to ask...just what are you so angry about ba? Alcoholism seems to really set you off - I'm wondering who the alcoholics in your life are - and have you sought out help for yourself?

Honey ~

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I was always punihsed severley if I did not conform as a child... and I was never listened to about how I felt... etc.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Exactly. What this translated to for me, was alot of suppressed emotion - especially anger. I had absolutely no clue what to do with any of my emotions - and in fact I beat myself for being angry, beat myself up for feelign hurt, always played critical tapes of myself over and over in my head when my feelings threatened to get out.

What this meant in my marriage was that I had no self-respect, had no idea how to express or deal with emotions, and I treated MYSELF and my husband exactly as my parents had treated me.

What this meant is that I was harsh, rigid, demanding, ultra responsible and self-righteous
This is what I had to UNLEARN in order to fix my relationship with my husband.

Added to this mix is that your parents are actually physically present to add their own behavior into the mix.

Do you now see how much damage your dad did to your husband by racing in to save the day?

How did your dad learn all that stuff that he is so good at now? I'd be willing to bet he didn't learn it by watching someone else do it for him...I bet he had to do it himself.

Your dad's behavior may SEEM loving upfront, and may seem reasonable - BUT - your husband lost an opportunity. Another man came running to the rescue. And this other man keeps dashing in to do more and do better for you than he ever can.
And of course...your husband loses an opportunity to learn - and by not doing, and not learning, also loses an opportunity to gain self-esteem.

I remember you saying that your husband rescued you from an abusive first husband. I'd be willing to bet that it made him feel needed and useful.

But after you got married...you didn't need him anymore. Daddy was there to do it better.

And with your dad willing to save the day, he's taken your husband's opportunity to learn life lessons. Your dad has interfered in your husband's incentive to learn how to be a man.

I'm not making a judgement here as to whether or not your husband SHOULD feel this way. I am simply speculating as to your husband's possible perceptions. And right or wrong, they are HIS perceptions.

Clearly you are in a position that is not easily fixed. I think that getting financially mixed up with your family was probably not a good idea, but then again, hindsight is 20/20.

Your husband is clearly resentful about living in a home "legally" owned by your family.

No, I don't think you should move out and go live in a ghetto with your husband. But what I do think is that you can and should acknowledge to your husband that you recognize that this is a problem for him. Ask him (with a counselor present) what ideas he might have to get out of your current situation, and express a willingness to explore those options. Offer a POJA on it <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

It does mean you may have to extricate yourself from your family's "help" especially if their "help" comes with a price tag (ie the right to interfere in your life.)

If you spend some time reading the 12 Traditions of Al-Anon, you'll read in Tradition 7 about being "fully self-supporting". The beauty of the 12 traditions is that while they help define how our groups are organized, they also apply to family situations. As you can see in your situation, not being fully self-supporting has had some disasterous results.

In my situation, my parents made every single decision for me, never allowed me to make a mistake, and therefore deprived me of life lessons I should have learned as a child. I didn't know how to organize myself, run my own life, make decisions....someone had always done it for me....

My own children have been given many responsibilities and also allowed to experience consequences of not taking care of them. My own children will never hit adulthood without having learned how to take care of themselves.

The lesson I had to learn with my husband was to let go of being right. If it didn't involve harm to myself or the kids, I learned to keep my mouth shut and respect my husband's choices. I dropped the need to critize and correct.

A few months before we reconciled....my husband decided to re-cement the front steps of the house. Holy cow, I can't tell you what a bad job he did on it. I kept my mouth extremely tightly shut!!! Instead, I thanked him for his time and effort and appreciated his hard work. His dad wanted to come over and re-do it correctly - and I said very firmly, thanks, but no thanks.

My front steps are still a disaster....but my marriage isn't. Whenever I look at my front steps, I simply remind myself....How important is it?

There have been other times that my husband has chosen to do something that I would not do, and it has turned out BETTER than my plan. So I've learned that I really am NOT right. We are different, and I've learned to respect that.

Treating my husband as an adult instead of a child that needs to be watched, corrected, and babysat has made a huge difference in our marriage.

Anyway, just give some of this stuff some thought, and keep up those Al-Anon meetings, you are doing great Honey, really you are.

BR, thank you. This thread is so helpful to me. We just returned from Thanksgiving with my mother today. (My dad passed away 2 years ago.)

On the way home, I had a discussion with my husband and 22 year old son. I told them that this morning I was sitting there thinking "my mother JUST DOES NOT LIKE ME!!!"

My husband and son said that they were in the other room saying that we are too much alike....my mother wants everything done HER way...and in an effort to NOT let her control me, I want things my way. I guess in the end it seems that she does not like my and my son said that she probably feels that I don't like her.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">In my situation, my parents made every single decision for me, never allowed me to make a mistake, and therefore deprived me of life lessons I should have learned as a child. I didn't know how to organize myself, run my own life, make decisions....someone had always done it for me.... </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This is exactly what I grew up in, and add to that, it felt like I could not do ANYTHING right or good enough.

In trying to draw my boundaries and not let her have control over me, it appears that I am just stubborn!! I am a 46 year old woman and I STILL have not gotten it.

It is a difficult situation and I have felt at times that I did not even want to go and see her. I always leave frustrated. I know I cannot change her, but changing my reaction is not easy either.

It helps to read your input, and although I do not deal with alcoholism, I think there is much benefit for anyone from AlAnon steps and traditions.

Thank you for taking the time to offer you wisdom to us.

BR,

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">What Honey DOES bear responsiblity for is how she chose to react, and how she chose to (or chose not to) draw boundaries that protected herself, and her husband.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I can agree with you on this point. Honey is not responsible for her parents controlling behavior but she and WS are responsible for allowing her parents behavior to affect their lives. They could have removed themselves from the wrath of her parents at any time. They chose not to and therefore must deal with the consequences.

Her parents appear to be simply parenting. They feel obligated to control her life in some ways because she has not demonstrated the ability to maintain control over certain parts of her life on her on her own. She comes to them for support and/or assistance and they go into parent mode. What else should they do?

Once she demonstrates that she is in control over her life and is no longer dependent on her parents for anything, she can remove herself from their wrath and be free to live her live as she chooses. With or without WS.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I'd like to ask...just what are you so angry about ba? Alcoholism seems to really set you off - I'm wondering who the alcoholics in your life are - and have you sought out help for yourself?
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">??My posts weren't about alcoholism?? I'm certainly not angry. I can only assume that you are referring to CAPS in my posts. When using CAPS I am simply emphasizing a word, not shouting it out in anger.

Honey, keep progressing. BR and I will hopefully agree to disagree and not hijack your thread.

tagging off <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

Thanks again for the comments.. glad they are helping others too!

I do want to poja the house issue if there is any chance of reconciling... Jim plans to go to counseling again monday so far... he was happy I copied the pics for him today and agrees to pay for them...

Jim had us evicted from many a Home.. we rented.. when i relied on him... Jim agreed with me to buy this house from the parents within one yr of our move in date.. and still has this opportunity... but Jim does not take it... Jim claims at times.. he is angry that this is legally the parents house... and at times claims there are just too many bad memories here.... Well the 3+ evictions... all where honey lovingly packed all the stuff... etc. and not to mention how honey lived in a tent with Jim, etc.... I have tried and tried to get this man to understand or think through finances and financial responsibility.... and my Dad has taught Jim to do many a things around the house.. since... he had no knowledge.. which I think Jim even appreciatied.. his own dad being a nonhandy type... anyway.. the repairs were a blow after the fire.. but would Jim of done them right and would he of managed 50+K well, the answer we all know is NO.

So, I do think My dad has stepped in to help... mostly by my request when Jim has failed.... I would like him to do more ... and achieve more... however we are talking about the same man who chooses to live on unemploy and lie about how much he gets while getting stoned or drunk...

Anyway.... I think he made his bed.. Yes, on my way to financ. freedom and more boundaries... for some reason a few yrs back.. I believed my h when he sd he was going to buy this house with me... Now it is just another thing or reason why he had the A... I admit...

I held the house over his head and sd it was mine and kicked him out on ocassion and whined and complianed b/c in my mind he was obligated to buy me a house... never happened...????

So anyway... It is an issue to poja big time...

I hope he will come to counseling and that there might be more progress.../

I am starting to think he must do something to show me ... he is in this marriage with me.. or time is running out.. it is past the 14 mo. mark on the seperation.

Thanks for being here.

Honey

Honey -

Hang in there...Your mind is clearing, the sun is just below the eastern horizon, the sunrise will be beautiful! Just keep your eyes open, facing the right direction with your boundries in tact.

The rest will be natural consequences to Jim's actions.

God Bless...

Gib

Honey - You have made it this far - right or wrong you have lived through it - Now I just think that maybe you have to decide if you are going to get help from him willingly or if you are definately going to file for child support - There is no way whether you make more money or he chooses to spend his carelessly - that he should not have any obligation to pay for those children... You talk about his ego etc. and how he needs to feel like a man etc. Tell him it is time to act like a grown up and take responsibilities for his children. I don't think that you should let him talk you out of the child support.. I think that your parents though they probably mean well - need to let go of you - they need to let you stand on your own two feet. If they own the house - then they are just like any other landlord - And when you go for the child support maybe you can get some extra money in there to pay your mother - that way you won't feel like she has the right to do what she wants because she is doing it for free - Just some thoughts - The holidays are upon us now - and I can only hope for things to look up - but who knows - What are you two doing for Christmas??? Has this come up???

Maw- thanks for the reply.... it is nice to have support!
thanks GIBBY, yours made me feel good! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> WOW!

Maw, I already filed for CS with the state and can't go back.

Fortunately these "landlords" give me all the
equity when I get my credit fixed and house in my name... they did it only to help me with my bad credit problem... OOps.. due to trusting a man or two when I shouldn't.. the credit got messed up in marriage number one, and is almost fixed... - a lot of the issues on my side of the street.. are agreeing to cosign on h's bad car note... now bad... what else.. staying home with kids at times... and relying on my 'responsible" husband to pay my bills.. hahaha... but my heart wanted to be with my kids and let the bills go back then.... My first marriage.. I freely let my h use all my credit cards... funny he had already ruined his credit? What is up with that? And I got stuck with some of it after the D, and he did not pay.. and I immediately got remarried and stayed home... and didn't pay... all of this was when I was very young...

The credit is almost fixed.... some of it also is risk taking in self employment to work from home... etc.. and just paying the major bills - and letting a credit card go... when I could of figured out a way..

Anyway.. I get to paint, wallpaper...- am doing this today etc.... My parents in no means act like a landlord... except for the legality of the note.. and the fire repairs.. they didn't want to trust my h to do it... and I didn't want to do the repairs.. truth is I got my home completley refloored as I picked it out, wood floors , berber carpets- paint I want and wallpaper, etc.... Now why wuold I leave this for a real rental with a real landlord...

Anyway, it is sad that I had bad credit and I am fixing it with this seperation is delaying... but I met with a mortgage broker a few weeks back and I am very close to beiong ready to buy alone and take the 5 yrs of equity with that buy.. that is already mine... That is the difference from a real landlord...

This landlord is out to help me, not make money from me.

Anyway, I wish it was in our name .. the man has had the opportunity..

I think it is another excuse... to be mad at me.. and he needs to suck it up and buy this house with me if he wants to stay in the M... Of course I can't buy it now unless we get d'd or I know we are staying together.... but I don't want to move to a rental... b/c he SAYS and has a an EGO....

Anyway.... it was never a BIG ISSUE until he left.. it is one of those things on the LIST that he says He is mad at... Well sure.. I was only on him for the last yr ... to get the credit fixed and we were almost ready when he left to buy.. but he was mad at me for managing our money and paying all the bills!!! He wanted more spending money when we needed obviously to fix our credit...

Whatever!

I know I know... it is all an old subject by now.. but wanted to explain why I stay...

This man has had an opportunity to be responsible with credit.. he messed up his and mine... I am not going to let me and the kids suffer... My son has friends in this neighborhood, rides the bus a few houses down is where he gets on... EXCELLENT schools and a real rental for this type of house would be 300 more a mo... that is part of why My parents helped me.. to save all thatm oney and help me start getting some equity even with credit issues....

Anyway.. H could care less about my security, happiness or that of our kids.... Just his manhood? Well you are right MAw, let him be a man then.

Gotta go, getting ready to wallpaper my kitchen.

H

BrambleRose,
thank you for your posts to Honey. They really made me think.
I probably will ask you on my thread a few practical questions re dealing with loving parents and learning how to deal with own mistakes and self respect.
FBOW

Well then Honey, you have a great position for POJA! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

You simply say to your husband (with a counselor present!) that you understand that he does not like living in a home provided by your parents. Tell him that you are interested in working with him to resolve the situation, but, because of your prior experience, you need to feel safe and secure. Ask him what his plan would be to guarantee that there will be no more evictions (or foreclosures!). You will have to stress, wihtout LBs, that you must stay in your home while he is unemployed, and he is living apart from you. But that if he were to come home, and get a job, that you'd be happy to work with him on moving to a place that was MUTUALLY agreeable to both of you.

Put the responsibility on his shoulders. I suspect the Honey of a year ago might have gone out killing herself to find a house and a mortgage all by herself to appease him. The much healthier Honey now understands that she can't be responsible for his 'stuff'.

Also Honey, you mentioned that your husband was in IT. While I am sure that Jim's drinking and irresponsibility might be part of the problem, I know from first hand experience that the IT industry is devastated right now. My husband was a Vice President, was laid off with other company officers, and was unemployed 10 months. And my husband spent every day actively pursuing work. In the end, he had to take a job that was several tiers down and half the salary. We know other GOOD people that have been out of work longer. I also know that my company's IT help desk center is based in Houston. One day while chatting with one of the techs down there, he told me that the IT community down there was hurting just as badly.

So some of this currently may not be entirely Jim's fault.

That he went for a year without telling you about his unemployment is unexcusable however.

Glad to read that your mother is reading co-dependent no more.

The only other thing I want to comment on is to may be slow down on the "I'm ready to dump him now!" <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> Talk about 180 degree change!

You aren't ready to move on without him yet. You haven't learned all the lessons here to learn yet. You gotta earn that divorce Honey! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Thanks for the post BR- I am just getting sick and tired, I guess my attitude shows how sick I am of his antics.

Jim could at least work.. he has CHOSEN not to work.. ie. carpet cleaning which he did in college, flooring- we used to own a floor business , etc. etc. This man has refused to WORK to take unemployment... he is lazy.. I know that. He is letting not just laziness and greed for the easy unemply ck be a cope out, but the drinking and doping.

I am tired. And this has made me mad all year... I even quite a great job at the prior compaq, to start the last business with him... yes for freedom in unemployement, etc... but also for the ability to keep him in ck. He had gone to lunch with a girl... and who knows what else ... prior to getting laid... off.- I quit to help him and get us back in self employ. together... real codependent... I love working from home and together we have been quite a team at times... but there are my control issues too coming out here.

BR- I too am glad to see my mom reading codependent no more... she gave me her copy yrs ago.. this one I saw at her house a wk or so back... I think after her haircut tirade.

She is acting calmer.

Anyway- Jim could deliver pizzas, clean floors, install them, heck sell them or work as a paralegal, etc.- those jobs are everywhere.. he has legal experience from working with me too and his dad... and I am just throwing up my hands.. he wants unemploy.. which he lied about how much.... and he wants to side job it here and there and get by with less work and less pay to me.

HE did have a couple of good jobs in IT.... in the last few yrs of m
our m... I helped get him 2 of the 3 jobs.... but now he has this ego trip that he does not want to work unless he is back at the 50 + an hour rate and in Houston you don't have to have that much to survive... he could easily find a 20 buck an hour job... EASY... now let's just see him DO IT!?????

Sorry, vent vent.. it is coming out... my anger at him for NOT WORKING.

I have extra work to do today due to bill overload.

Thanks for the post... still would like to save the M>.. but not alone. Will definitely come back and reread here later.

Hugs, H

THe kids are back and the verdict- is ... ws has been saying mean things about me.. guess what.. ys asked him why he left?

Dad's reply I am fat and I yell at him all the time- and also I am a wierdo... WOW

Older son sd he drank friday night, sat and today. WOW- he had open beer on way home in car today.

Well, not sure aobut counseling tomorrow.. asked him if he was going to make it when he dropped off kids... not in their earshot... he sd not sure, he doesn't like how I am acting. I have asked him 2x this weekend.. when we communicated about pick up and drop off of kids.. if he has any money.. for child support.. his answer is OF COURSE NOT! I suggest he work A JOB, any job.. and he laughs that he should have to go down from where he was for an 8 mth stint.... at his last job.

Anyway- thank good ness I have filed for child support..

Oh his answer when I asked aobut money the 2nd time.. he knew I wasn't changing... I am the same... I sd well is there a problem with me being upset that you don't pay to support the kids.. ?

His answer/// upset... upest, oh I guess you have a reason for being upset now... there is always a reason.

Anyway.. he doesn't want to own his actions, or his irresponsible behavior.. not supporting the kids, as well as having a's and drinking.

Thanks for being here. H

Honey,

Do you plan on allowing your children to go with him the next time he shows up to take them? The reason that I am asking is because of this...

Older son sd he drank friday night, sat and today. WOW- he had open beer on way home in car today.

Afterall, there is no order on file that requires you to let them go.

There is no way that I would allow my children to accompany him...he could have the biggest hissy fit in the yard and he still would not be leaving there with them. There is no court order that allows him to take them anywhere. When he showed up to get them, I would place them in the house and then tell him to leave or you would be calling the police to come and settle it. He has abandoned his family, moved out, and some type of order needs to be maintained for the sake of the children. That is what the court system is for, to determine what amount of time the WS has with the children. ( I realize that comment might get me flamed, but it is not beneath me to do ANYTHING to make sure that my kids are safe.) That concept alone might allow you to get by with not letting them leave with him. I know that you do not want to file for divorce, but you do have some rights as their Mother and as the person that has them living with you. Is this something that you think might be best to check into also? I don't think that you are under any obligation to let them go with him. (again, another flame resulting comment). I realize that he is their father, but let's just place their safety first. I know that it is a moral obligation to allow him parenting time (until a court order might be in place), but until you had some type of legal obligation to let them accompany him, I would stand firm and not allow it.

If push comes to shove, you could tell him that you will arrange to have him pick them up outside the local poilce department just to shake some sense into him. He can also drop them off at the local police station. I realize that you are very concerned with the LBing, but do not put your children at risk for your Plan A. The children always come first, PlanA or not. The children love their father, I know, but they should not be exposed and their lives in peril just because he wants to see them.

I would stand firm, an open container in the car only means one thing...he HAS been drinking and driving. Whether it was with them in the car or not, do you really want to wait and find out when you get that dreaded call in the middle of the night. It is too late then. You have an idea that he is....gawd....you have a HUGE clue that he is!

Protect those children, God entrusted them to your care (and to your WS, but he doesn't count right now because he cannot even take care of himself). It is solely up to you right now, as awful as it sounds. It is 100% your responsibilty.

As Always, JMHO
committed

Honey - you are sounding much better - really you are - but I agree with CommittedandLovingIt - I don't think you should allow your children to go with him if he has been drinking - again those are your children and right now you are the only that I can see is capable of taking care of them - Does he realize how immature it sounds to be telling his four year old - that you are fat and you yell alot - I am like waiting for na, na, na, na, to be said after it - and I know in my experience asking the kids about what happened with their Dad etc - puts them in an awkward position - I would tell him that he can see the kids but not overnight and that you will pick up and drop off at some location - public or his house - just because he should not be driving them at all...

Honey,

I too think you are doing so much better. I think maybe that you took action on the child support issue has empowered you among other things.

My concern is what you recently posted about Jim drinking while having the boys; and the open container in the car. He may be able to go on indefinitely with both drinking in front of the boys and driving with an open container. However I think that the odds are pretty good that "something" could happen while he has the boys and you're not there.

For instance he could be pulled over by the police. If the boys are in the car and there's an open container; and/or they test him for DWI the boys could be temporarily put in the state's custody. In my state if that occurred the boys would be put in a temporary crisis shelter for children until custody could be sorted out. Having volunteered at our crisis shelter for a few years; I have seen 1st hand the devastation of the children brought to the shelter. And this is a marvelous shelter, staffed with warm caring people.

Your H's behavior is such that you children are not safe alone with him at this time. This might be a place in time where you have to draw a line in the sand and refuse to allow him to take them until he is able to prove he no longer drinks.

I don't mean to sound harsh, but with your H's recent behavior - he's just raised the stakes in what you have the potential to lose. Sorry this is happening to you. Blessings CSue

So where do you draw the line Honey?

Where is your boundary protecting your children?

What will it take? A dead child?

Certainly do not approve of his behavior... guess I will stop letting him have the kids AGAIN.. have done this before and all I got was threats and NO MONEY- he can't do this anymore...

If we go to court over this.. this alcoholic will prove , despite his lying about it, that he is a stable parent...

If I attempt to prove he is not- the answer is to divorce.

OK- am diong the best I can, will be discussing at counselor..

He did not arrive drinking, he drank when he brought them home according to son. I do not know how drunk he was over wkend, only that os says he drank beer all wkend.

Thanks, H

honey,

Certainly do not approve of his behavior... guess I will stop letting him have the kids AGAIN.. have done this before and all I got was threats and NO MONEY-
That point is moot because you are seeking your CS from an agency not from him directly. So, he cannot threaten you with that.

If we go to court over this.. this alcoholic will prove , despite his lying about it, that he is a stable parent...

If I attempt to prove he is not- the answer is to divorce.

So let it!

He did not arrive drinking, he drank when he brought them home according to son. I do not know how drunk he was over wkend, only that os says he drank beer all wkend.

This comment leads me to believe that you are weakening your resolve that it was such a serious thing. IT IS SERIOUS! You are downplaying it now. YOU saw the OPEN container of beer in the car. You KNOW what that means...he has been drinking and driving. Don't screw up now and try to downplay it. You are looking for excuses to not take the proper action. It is as dangerous today, as it was yesterday when you saw that open container. Do not start second guessing your Mother related reactions.

As Always, JMHO
committed

<small>[ December 02, 2002, 11:37 AM: Message edited by: committedandlovingit ]</small>

Honey - you are getting some great advice here - go with it - I know my husband drinks to much - I ask that when he drives the children that he does not have anything to drink and so far to my knowledge he has respected my wishes - if I thought otherwise I would never let them in the car with him.. Your children are young - they don't know when he is drunk - you have to speak for them - How can he prove in a court of law that he is a stable parent??? He isn't working?? He isn't paying for the kids??? I would definately bring it up in counseling - that ok you want the kids you have to prove to me that you are not drinking at all when they are with you - make him see them in a public place for awhile - I think most of us are afraid that something is going to happen and you will never forgive yourself - I know that he would never intentionally put them in harms way - but if he doesn't think he is an alcholic then he is sick as you have said so many times and he isn't thinking clearly therefore he cannot be responsible as a parent - taking care of his children - You have to face that - Don't back down - stand up for your children protect them - They need to have their father in their life - but do they need this man that he has become at this time????