Well the marriage counselor this evening seems to think that to save my marriage I need to work to be loving and kind to him even in this situation ----

Result as of tonight... Jim is signing an agreement, my idea, not to drink and drive with the kids in the car.. we have discussed this with the counselor and Jim has agreed. I know all of you will not agree.

I have also advised the kids not to get in the car with dad if drinking, I know they can't control it, but they can KNOW it is dangerous and wrong and against the law and a 5th grader can do a good job of letting his dad know HE KNOWS... and that helps.

According to my marriage counselor in order to rebuild the love there must be some trust rebuilt... I know Jim and I am willing to take this step.

I DO PROTECT my KIDS... regardless of what some of you think.

I am trying to get older son back into counseling, and he is very involved in church, all of us are, except Jim.

Anyway.... being that I work 10 hr days the counseling is difficult to arrage and I am getting insurance soon which will help with multiple couseling appts. I am trying my best to work with him on his anger and talk about it alot and encourage him to love and forgive his dad... he has lot s of anger which is normal for a boy his age... not that I think it will just go away.. we are getting back to cousneling soon...

Anyway- the counselor and Jim and I are in agreement to this new term, along with some concessions on my part... and his to work on the marriage.. for now we are going indefinitely to counseling once a week... and working on being friends again.

I appreciate all of your concern... and ideas.

Yes Lor , open container is illegal here, not in LA... at least last time I cked, and other southern states- not that that makes it OK>... just remembering my h comes from the drinking south. ANyway, not to lighten any of this, we are now in firm agreement, and any violation will be adressed .. there is going to soon be a legal agreement on child support and jim is fine with that... also he is willing to work on our marriages... still claims he wants the M, and doesn't know how.. we can do it.. b/c of all my wrongs... GEE>> FOG?

back to CandLovingit - I still think although you don't live with active alcholism it is affecting your thoughts about an alcoholic.. I notice you chose not to live with one, that is great. I really want to save my marriage, that is honorable and a good thing.

I am not at all saying people here do not know what it is like... I just gather from your posts candl... that you CHOOSE NOT TO SAVE A M TO AN ALCHOLIC.. that is your right and choice, and very likely you have some lost resentment deep down that you married one and have these alcholic type relatives.. nothing wrong with that... just realize that there must be some reason you feel so strongly about getting me to see if YOUR WAY... that is OK.. I appreciate your concern for my kids.

I am not here to get people to agree with me. I am here for support mainly, and feedback and ideas- secondly. Nothing wrong with that. I apologize again for not seeing it YOUR WAY candl... please respect my decision to work to save my marriage to an alcholic while drawing boundaries in love and for the love of my children and my family.

I focus here on my marriage on these boards... there are issues with the kids, and they are doing fairly well... in fact os has done better in school this year! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Anyway, things are getting better.. there was great progress in one little hour tonight.. and the more I tell my h what an alcoholic he is, and how HE NEEDS TO CHANGE the less it happens... it is about changing ourselves, right?

Thanks for being here.. .please don't misconstrue my disagreement with some of the harshness. I am trying hard to make this marriage work, that is why I come here.

Thanks, H

(((Honey))), I am so sorry I haven't been checking in with you!!! I have tried to scan through this thread, and alot has happened!! I am glad to see that J is willing to go to counseling, that is a good step, just keep Honey in check and if you feel him come closer don't make any strong moves to startle him. Sometimes these things have to be taken slow.

You and your family are in my prayers, and I hope everything works out. BrambleRose has given you some excellent advice, especially since she has been in your shoes, being the wife of an alcoholic.

(By the way, BR, if you read this, check out the book "the surrendered wife", its awesome, alot about respecting your husbands decisions, etc, are you sure you didn't write it???, you can read the first two chapters for free at www.surrenderedwife.com it definitely helped me!!)

hugs to you Honey!!

GC <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

<small>[ December 03, 2002, 10:27 AM: Message edited by: going_crazy ]</small>

Hi Honey!

Glad to see Jim's agreement with regard to drinking around the boys and driving with them in car if he has been drinking. Good start ~ now let's pray he sticks to it. Meanwhile, the book, The Surrendered Wife is mentioned a recent post on this thread. I have it, have read it and am trying to put the most of the ideas into practice in my M (okay, I just couldn't do the finance thing under the circumstances) ~ the effect is amazing. Think about getting a copy and giving it a read ~ it might help in what Jim and the C call "being more loving."

Regards,

BB

Your right guys, I need a copy of the surrendered wife.. just got home from an alanon meeting. I have read the first 2 chapters online before.. I even printed them out.

Counseling began with me alone, JIm came late- then he pulled a trump card, then I... on each other. I have to let go and let GOd... LET HIM FOR PETE'S sake...

Me controlling? It is very difficult to have your h being the h, when he is an alcoholic.. I basically took over and charge of everything and told him how he would behave.

Jim is not the worst scenario alcoholic, though my whining might make one believe that.. it is still his choice to drink, his decision to stop, etc.

I am happy we can agree on the drinking and driving in a contract form. Any advice on making a contract binding bb? Just kidding... but seriously.. I do think that jim - being the lawyers son that he is, will respect our written agreement.. this is how he likes to do things... we will both sign the contract not to drink and drive and always wear seatbelts. I pray he will uphold his end of the bargain.

Thanks GC, I hope you are WELL.. just thinking aobut you this past weekend... ck in when you can.

Hugs to everyone, thanks for the support.

Honey

going crazy,

I wasn't able to access the first 2 chapters thru your link - could you repost or am I doing something wrong? Anyone else able to access it?

Thanks
D.

PS HOney - the tone of your posts are changing - you are getting a lot of practice on these boards!

(((((((((((((HONEY))))))))))))))))))

I do know what it is like to be M to an alcohic & it's too much for most of us! That's why there's alanon.

D.

Honey, I too was/am very controlling ~ as with you, largely related to FWH's drinking. I was not like that before I met FWH and am working VERY hard on not being and I must say that it is MUCH easier to do now that FWH is no longer drinking. Old habits die hard, though. Get The Surrendered Wife - definitely provides great advice on even little things that Jim will notice - my FWH sure did (but still says I need to work on it <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> )

BB

Wow, Honey, I got you to page 8 - pretty soon you'll be competing with Spacecase and 2Long with the hundreds and hundreds of posts on your thread! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

BB

Thanks again BB- feeling ever more peaceful as I let it go- Truly alcoholism is HIS battle not mine. I just get to decide what I will and will not tolerate/ accept in the treatment I get and decide to give.

Abuot to print out the link to the first two chapters again. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Thanks, Honey

OK I am confused - What happened to change your line of thinking??? You said you are letting go?? Then you signed an agreement about him not drinking with the boys??? Are you two continuing with marriage counseling??? Does he want to make it work again?? Is he admitted he is an alcholic?? I just got lost somewhere here???

Honey,

Since I live with an active alcoholic AND I am a member of Al-Anon...will you take what I have to say seriously?

Here's my problem.

1st of all you have a pattern. Your fear of being alone is so overwhelming that it drives your self-will into all kinds of fantastic contortions. You have an idea of how exactly your life and reality is supposed to be, and you will not accept anything less.

Unfortunately, what this plays out to mean is that you believe or listen to whom ever says what your self-will wants to hear, and you put your fingers in your ears to block out everything else.

First your FIL was evil-incarnate - encouraging your husband to kidnap your children, and cheering on your husband in his affairs.

But when reality started to intrude, and your husband started pushing to take the kids...suddenly your FIL became trustworthy.

You actually seem to believe that you have control over others - as was demonstrated in your call to your FIL when your attempts to control Jim were frustrated. (if you can't control Jim directly, try to convince someone else to do so)

But the thing is, if your FIL is trustworthy, then you don't have to take any action that your FEAR is afraid of. This is what frustrates everyone Honey...your 180 degree flips as you try desperately to force reality to fit your self-will.

Fear and forced solutions are never ever an answer.

The same goes for your son. Your husband, who has repeatedly proven that he will drive drunk with the kids (because this is not the first time you have told us about such an incident), but its your SON who gets made out to be a liar.

If your son is telling a lie,then you don't have to face your fears. If your son is just trying to get Daddy in trouble, then you can sit back and continue trying to appease Jim.

It is very selfish Honey, to put your fear and your need (addiction) for Jim, ahead of your children's wellbeing. And 10 years old is old enough to understand that his safety has been ignored.

My 11 year old has been thru DARE several times. He too understands how serious drinking and driving is. He's been told to tell a parent if anyone tries to do this with him in the car. Your son just did as he was taught - AND YOU LET IT GO. This is negligent parenting at its worst, and what does it say to your son about your concern and love for him?

At the very least Honey, you could have told your son to go to his DARE counselor and tell them. Then your son would be protected, and it would be determined if it was a lie or the truth.

Now, I am happy that Jim has promised not to do it again, and Jim has promised to work on the marriage. If I had a penny for every single broken promise made by an alcoholic, I'd be rich beyond imagination.

What has Jim changed to give some reason for your trust now? Nothing changes if nothing changes Honey, and words, even words on paper, mean nothing unless there is accountability and responsiblity. Jim is not dealing with his problems, he is simply blaming you. He hasn't changed even one bit...so WHY are you trusting him now?

I can tell you why - your absolute terror at losing Jim is driving you to believe him.

Is your counselor trained to deal with alcoholism? I don't know very many church counselors that are...

If things are as you say, I find it rather appalling that a counselor would simply put it in writing and expect it to happen.

Once again, Jim has no consequences because you allow your fear to make your decisions. Jim will not hit bottom as long as you protect him from the natural consequences of his choices.

Unfortunately Honey, I am afraid that something terrible is going to happen as a result of your fear driven choices. And sadly enough, it will more likely be something that happens to your children instead of you.

Is the death of a child an acceptable price for saving your marriage?

Not all marriages CAN be saved. We don't know if yours can or can't be. But Honey if you don't start taking resonsiblity for yourself and your children, we will probably never know.

Well..I take that back, if you can't start making reality based choices, your marriage doesn't stand a chance.

Br,

That was powerful. Honey, do the blinders come off now? CSue

BR, your post is very well thought-out, many many deep thoughts.

Honey,
An agreement written in front of the counselor is good. I just had another thought, when my H truly wanted to get it together, he had a male accountability partner. My prayer partner's husband, actually, and our counselor agreed as well to be someone to call when he didn't think he could make it. At that point, I'd asked him not to call me, because it had been H's choice to leave, there had been many times I needed help and couldn't reach him and now after 10pm I was unavailable to his calls.

Could you ask your counselor (not you) to suggest this to Jim? Anybody in Jim's life who would be there if he screws up when he has the kids? (you could brainstorm this before you talk to C).

THANKS BR, CSUE AND LOR:

I appreciate all thoughts and advice and will be thinking on all of this and letting it digest.

I am doing the best I can...

Oh Maw- Not letting go of my life... but of controlling Jim.. trying to. Trying to give it to God and let me do the best I can to control what I can.

Jim is not drunk 24 hours a day and has the ability to decide not to drink and drive and not to drink with the kids. He is being given this respect and opportunity with now having said in front of me and another adult that he will do this... and is signing a written agreement, something he takes seriously.

I am working to show him trust, something you have to have in a marriage. I am doing the best I can...

IF he breaks that trust after serious discussion and promises.. instead of a casual conversation... we will then follow through with more serious consequences. I also doubt Jim was drunk while driving, just the open container- I do believe... but he has now had a serious converstaion and accountability session at least with the counselor...

LOR- very good idea accountability partner.. am looking into that... My husband / ws- in the past when he was an H- wanted to go to PROMISE KEEPERS at church... gee was that guilt in advance?

Anyway, we will see. I am simply giving him a chan ce to be the GOOD MAN I married and not pounding him on the head saying YOU LOUSEY ALCOHOLIC... that surely does drive one away doesn't it?

I am not willing to save the marriage AT THE COSTS of MY KIDS OR MYSELF.. there are boundaries...being put up- he gets a chance to try Now when he is the most willing he has been in 14 mths , right?

Still cautious and thinking.

Thanks, H <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

just changed it, here it is again, I accidently put a comma in there the first time:

www.surrenderedwife.com

********JMHO**********

Original Quote from CSue...

For instance he could be pulled over by the police. If the boys are in the car and there's an open container; and/or they test him for DWI the boys could be temporarily put in the state's custody. In my state if that occurred the boys would be put in a temporary crisis shelter for children until custody could be sorted out. Having volunteered at our crisis shelter for a few years; I have seen 1st hand the devastation of the children brought to the shelter. And this is a marvelous shelter, staffed with warm caring people.

I, for one, am starting to think that this might be the best possible thing that could happen to the boys. When social services becomes involved and they start asking questions, then people have to become accountable for their actions. This not only means J but Honey also. When they question her children and the children tell them that Mommy knows...then they question honey....well, honey will be determined to be just as guilty as J. Maybe once an outside party becomes actively involved in protecting these boys, they stand a better chance of being saved from an alcoholic dad and the mother that enables him.

You can say what you will honey, but we all know that you place your WS above the boys. Your actions speak louder than your words. You can continue to delude yourself but the people who have read your posts know better. You can say that saving your marriage is the honorable thing to do, but where is your honor for your children? You are so determined to have that unhealthy relationship that you are sacrificing your children. You dare not p*ss your WS off because at any time that might end the marriage. You don't realize it yet, but your marriage is already over. Right now, it's a marriage on paper only. Your marriage has been over for years and you just refuse to recognize it. Everything that makes a marriage is nonexistant in the relationship you have with J. You both are dealing with addictions....his is with alcohol and drugs (you stated that he had been drugging also) and your addiction lies with Jim.

It might be a wise move to have someone else to care for those children while you BOTH battle your own demons and remove the addictions from your life.

You can get furious all you want with my post. You can rant ...you can rave....and when you settle down it will still be the same way. Because, you refuse to change things.

Always,
committed

In Response to BR:

posted December 03, 2002 09:16 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Honey,

Since I live with an active alcoholic AND I am a member of Al-Anon...will you take what I have to say seriously?

Here's my problem.

1st of all you have a pattern. Your fear of being alone is so overwhelming that it drives your self-will into all kinds of fantastic contortions. You have an idea of how exactly your life and reality is supposed to be, and you will not accept anything less.

H - You are right, I do want what I expect to happen in my life to happen and I will work hard for it to happen- I accept things may not go my way.

Unfortunately, what this plays out to mean is that you believe or listen to whom ever says what your self-will wants to hear, and you put your fingers in your ears to block out everything else.

H- I am not putting the fingers in my ears... I have before... I am hopeful and yes, trying to trust.

First your FIL was evil-incarnate - encouraging your husband to kidnap your children, and cheering on your husband in his affairs.

H- Yes, I blamed fil for much of this in the beginning.. a yr ago.. when he gave his son furniture and loaned him money to set up the 'house'- I do think fil is somewhat messed up, but he was good to me for 10 yrs prior... ALWAYS... he is a christian man and my kids grandfather.. I want to reestablish a good relationship with him. FIL sd the A was wrong and did not support the A.. but he did not totally getMAD... he just told his son.. I did it once and it isn't the best idea.. or something like that.. I started the war on fil, not him on me. He is a nice man if not under attack by gone crazy honey who blames fil for h's infidelity, b/c fil did the same thing once, 14 yrs ago or so...
The kidnapping was extreme and I think fil realizes that now. His ideas were nuts- but I do not trust him completely and that is ONE REASON.

But when reality started to intrude, and your husband started pushing to take the kids...suddenly your FIL became trustworthy.

H- Not saying he is completely trustworthy.. not my best friend at all.

You actually seem to believe that you have control over others - as was demonstrated in your call to your FIL when your attempts to control Jim were frustrated. (if you can't control Jim directly, try to convince someone else to do so)

H- I wanted to communicate to fil the reality of the drinking and that a long drive could be dangerous. I did not want to control or attempt it, just let fil know how bad it is.. HE WEARS full blinders to his son's alcholism.

But the thing is, if your FIL is trustworthy, then you don't have to take any action that your FEAR is afraid of. This is what frustrates everyone Honey...your 180 degree flips as you try desperately to force reality to fit your self-will.

Fear and forced solutions are never ever an answer.

H- I see your point in these words.. the words make sense.. not sure I believe I am doing this to the extreme you think I am.

The same goes for your son. Your husband, who has repeatedly proven that he will drive drunk with the kids (because this is not the first time you have told us about such an incident), but its your SON who gets made out to be a liar.

H- Again you are taking my words to the very literal extreme... that's ok, that's all you got, what I typed out here. Son has made up that h has been with other women when he hasn't b/c son wants me to divorce h. Son also will probably think one beer is equal to the equivalent of 10.. he just thinks beer is bad.. no questions asked, and that is understandable for a child dealing with this. I believe the open container, and the drinking, just not sure HOW MUCh h drank.

If your son is telling a lie,then you don't have to face your fears. If your son is just trying to get Daddy in trouble, then you can sit back and continue trying to appease Jim.

H- I was responding to the pt posters made here taking everything very literally off the post.

It is very selfish Honey, to put your fear and your need (addiction) for Jim, ahead of your children's wellbeing. And 10 years old is old enough to understand that his safety has been ignored.

H- I am not ignoring safety.

My 11 year old has been thru DARE several times. He too understands how serious drinking and driving is. He's been told to tell a parent if anyone tries to do this with him in the car. Your son just did as he was taught - AND YOU LET IT GO. This is negligent parenting at its worst, and what does it say to your son about your concern and love for him?

H- My son is also in DARE and it is wonderful... We have definitely discussed his not getting into car with open container and how dangerous it is .. last night... looking into more soluations on this.. one being accountabilty partners, etc for h. Even having h and others discuss this issues... in depth.


At the very least Honey, you could have told your son to go to his DARE counselor and tell them. Then your son would be protected, and it would be determined if it was a lie or the truth.

H- We have discussed this.

Now, I am happy that Jim has promised not to do it again, and Jim has promised to work on the marriage. If I had a penny for every single broken promise made by an alcoholic, I'd be rich beyond imagination.

H- I understand that I can't be sure he will keep his promise, but if I do not try to turst his word, and give him a chance, there is no chance for a marriage.

What has Jim changed to give some reason for your trust now? Nothing changes if nothing changes Honey, and words, even words on paper, mean nothing unless there is accountability and responsiblity. Jim is not dealing with his problems, he is simply blaming you. He hasn't changed even one bit...so WHY are you trusting him now?

H- We are dealing with accountability to the counselor , me and a contract which I KNOW HE/ J respects... We all know how our spouses work... and my 18 yr history with him and who he used to be is giving this chance for accountability to him as an offer, yes.. with consequences... NO MORE KIDS in car if he does it after the contract..

I can tell you why - your absolute terror at losing Jim is driving you to believe him.

H- Being better than and condescending will not save my M.

Is your counselor trained to deal with alcoholism? I don't know very many church counselors that are...

Yes he is. I am working with him on this.

If things are as you say, I find it rather appalling that a counselor would simply put it in writing and expect it to happen.

The contract was my idea.. b/c I know how Jim works.

Once again, Jim has no consequences because you allow your fear to make your decisions. Jim will not hit bottom as long as you protect him from the natural consequences of his choices.

Unfortunately Honey, I am afraid that something terrible is going to happen as a result of your fear driven choices. And sadly enough, it will more likely be something that happens to your children instead of you.

H-I appreciate your concern, believe me I am very concerned.

Is the death of a child an acceptable price for saving your marriage?

No.

Not all marriages CAN be saved. We don't know if yours can or can't be. But Honey if you don't start taking resonsiblity for yourself and your children, we will probably never know.

H- I am.

Well..I take that back, if you can't start making reality based choices, your marriage doesn't stand a chance.

H- I am in reality.

Thanks BR for your heartfelt and sincere concern and comments - I respect your feedback and that you are aware of alanon concepts.

We all must decide what choices we will make in our own lives.

Thanks.

--------------------
Pain is a given, misery is optional.

~ I am a BS in Recovery since June 28th, 2001 after an 18 month separation.
~ Married 12 years, 3 children. Pregnant with #3 during A.

Honey, please do not fool yourself. When you married you joined into a contract. You have a marriage liscense on paper to prove it. Jim did not respect that contract did he? Why do you think he will respect this one?

It is not that I think Jim doesn't want to. But, Honey, Jim is sick. He has an addiction he cannot control.

Making promises and signing a paper really does not change anything.

Please be very careful. Guard your kids.

Honey - How come everyone gets the thank yous and I get the OH - I was just confused as I still am - You don't expect anyone to take what you write seriously but when you are writing you seem pretty serious - You are trying to trust him - but why should you have to try - shouldn't he try to prove it - You could be the biggest b*tch in the world but the simple fact is that he cheated, lied and is drinking alot - with and without the children - and he is to blame more so than you - you may be to blame for trying to make excuses for him all of the time - I mean you talk like he doesn't want you - you are fat and bad - then a day later - he is trying in the marriage because he signed and agreement - maybe he signed the agreement to get you off of his back - I mean I just don't see what is different today than yesterday - it seems like you think things are headed in the right direction miraculously overnight.. I think that BR had some awesome responses and she is making real sense - and you know what if your 11 yr. old wants you to get divorced what does that say??? That he has had enough of this lifestyle ??? I mean stop putting them on the backburner - stop trying to justify what you are doing to save your marriage - like someone before said that is also a contract agreed upon by the two of you and that didn't get very far???

<small>[ December 03, 2002, 01:51 PM: Message edited by: Honey ]</small>

Honey - I have never told you to do it my way - I don't even like the way my life went - But it went in a way that I can live with myself and the decisions that I made for my childrens sake - You are correct we only know what you post here - and you are so all over the place that sometimes it is so frustrating - I read your posts and I am like my god those poor children - that poor woman - I mean you only get one life to live and you are putting yourself through total agony thinking one day it is just going to be all better - I mean on Monday he hates you, Tuesday he wants to make it better, Wednesday he can have the kids while drinking, Thursday he cannot... And you are right we don't know you or him from a hole in the wall - but I cannot help myself from posting to you because I am afraid that something really bad is going to happen. I mean you are young, intelligent with two beautiful children - You cannot change your husband but you can change yourself and protect your children... I don't want you to get a divorce - Really I don't - I don't even believe in divorces but in some cases there are not alternatives - You say you are going to give him to god - but you know what no one can help him even god unless he wants to be helped and obviously he doesn't right now - He may in the future but right now - he has his own place, he has no responsibility - he is putting the blame on you constantly and you are making excuses for him.... There is no right or wrong - but something has got to change in this grand scheme of yours and his or those children are going to end up being affected for the rest of their lives..... You must stop the cycle..... I mean go back and read what you are writing and then you will realize why we are answering the way we are answering and I don't even think my answers were as firm as BR's - but she has been there and done that so you pretend you are listening to her - but are you????