Well..I've been working on Plan B the last couple of weeks, and last night I broke the rules. My S had an early evening hockey game last night, about 40 minutes out of town. My H was picking up our kids after his work, going to hockey with them and then they would stay overnight at his place.

Anyway, I was home late from work, and arrived just in time to meet my H in our front hallway as the kids were getting their coats on to leave. I was running behind, had no gas in my car, and for some reason asked if by any chance I could go in the car with them. It seemed so stupid to go in two separate cars, basically following each other, spending gas on two cars, and then basically following each other almost the same route home.

As soon as I said it I knew I shouldn't have. I didn't say it to be with my H, honestly..just because of the circumstances. Anyway, he said fine. Said he would take the kids quickly to McDonalds for supper, and then come back and get me.

After they'd left I was so mad at myself for asking, but glad because it worked out better logistically. I thought of calling him on his cell phone and telling him not to bother getting me after all, but I thought that would be nuts.

They came back to get me and we drove to the hockey game together.

My H chatted with me a bit, and I chatted back. The kids loved it and were very talkative and happy the whole way there. After the hockey game we all chatted again and then my H dropped me home and headed to his place with the kids.

Now I don't know what to do. How can I do no contact again when I broke the rule and ASKED him for the ride. What do I do? If I go to Plan B again I think I'll seem crazy - chatting one minute and then back to no contact the next. But, I don't want to be all friendly and chatty either, as I know for sure that will meet some of his EN's. I know he enjoyed talking to me last night about work, whether he'd ever admit it. And, he was telling me other stuff too..like how he was ticked off as he got a parking ticket the other night because where he lives there's only room in the driveway for one car and so he's been parking on the street. Now winter is coming, our by-laws change here, and you can't park on the street from mid-November to April I think, due to snow plows needing access in the middle of the night.

What do I do now? My H chatting with me means nothing in regards to interest to me..I'm pretty positive of that, so I'm stumped as to how to approach this now. And..another hockey game tonight! Local, but I'll still see him.

Go right back into Plan B. When there are children involved you can NOT do a hard and fast Plan B which doesn't have a leak or two.

Personally, it sounds as if you did pretty well last night, nothing relationship related, just what you might have talked over with a friend.

Kids enjoyed it. Leave it be. Just don't throw Plan B out the window...these things are going to come up with children. This was minor.

Thanks for the encouragement! No..we just talked out his work, my work..stuff like that. With the kids in the backseat, couldn't have talked about relationship stuff anyway.

It's not like my H even walked into the arena with me..he didn't. And, when we were waiting for the game to begin, we didn't even stand together..he went over to a group of other dads, and I stayed with our daughter in another area.

I just feel like I'm giving confusing messages. I give him the nc letter and then do this!

Must admit though...I really enjoyed it. Hard to believe since last week I couldn't even look at his face I was so disgusted with him.

The other thing I forgot to mention in my first post is that he sent my Mom a condolence card. Her brother died last week and I told my H so he'd know as the kids might talk about it. Now, my H never cared for my Mom, and when he met my Uncle a couple of years ago, didn't care for him either. But...he sent a card to her and even put his return address on it. I thought that was nice and my Mom did too. The thing she was surprised about was that he put his return address on. She wonders if this means he wants to stay in contact, or was it just written on as a statement (look..my new address)..or..just out of habit when addressing an envelope. Who knows.

Well, last night I had a discussion with my kids. Told them that I wanted them to know that in the new year I would be opening myself up to the possibility of dating. I told them it might take months or a year to ever meet someone, but that Mommy doesn't want to be alone for ever and in the new year Daddy would have been gone over 6 months and if there's still no interest, I'll have to think of myself.

They were understanding as they know I've tried everything, and still love their Daddy, but that there's not much more I can do. The only reason I told them this is so that a seed is planted in their mind in case I ever do get asked out for a date. I am not looking, and am not interested in looking..I just feel it's the best thing to prepare them, and me, mentally.

I don't want to date anyone else...I choose my husband, but I think it's what I need to do. I am viewing the new year as a 'new beginning' and so I need to start thinking about that in every aspect.

Hard to love someone so much and be thinking of maybe dating other people.

Date? Aren't you still married?

Pepper <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

I too am confused kimmy? If you are still married, don't date.. wiat until you are legally d'd... you can survive and it will make you stronger not to do this. YOu will ruin any chance of reconciling if you do this... while you are dating, it will not be possible to reconcile.. and unfair to anyone you become involved with, that you might still want your marriage.

I understand the tiredness of being alone, and I too have wondered, should I just date... my friends say - Go ahead... but really ... it is not the best thing to do ,if you want your M.

Be careful Kimmy... I am sure this is hard for your kids, even if you are seeing their hurt... of course they don't want mommy dating new men...

Hang on kimmy.

Honey

<small>[ November 17, 2002, 11:31 AM: Message edited by: Honey ]</small>

I know I'm still married, but unless my H divorces me soon I could be married for years yet, so do I just never date, waiting for him to file papers? I don't want to date, but my H doesn't want me. I'm not saying I WILL date in the new year, I'm saying I'll open myself up to the possibility of it of thinking about it. Yes, I'm lonely, and I'm getting frustrated because I just feel that by not looking ahead and thinking of stuff like that I'll be stuck.

My H doesn't want me. Plain and simple. How long do I wait before I start to live again?

I choose him...he's NOT choosing me. What do I do, wait while he dates and then MAYBE comes back to me? Or, wait while he dates and then he DOESN'T come back to me?

Don't forget, he could already be dating, or at the least he's having an EA with someone. So, how long do I wait while my life slips by.

I really appreciate the input. I guess I'm just so sad that every day provides no hope for me and him and I'm trying to energize myself for a new year 'fresh start'. Don't get me wrong. I love this man still, even after over 4 months of horrible, cruel words. But I can't seem to get over my feelings for him and that's why I'm trying to plan ahead.

I feel so confused, all the time. One minute I hate him and am determined to get on with my life; the next minute I'm crying my eyes out because I can't live without him. I want to hate him and get on with my life. It would be easier.

Kimmy,

Don't feel bad- I know just how you feel! Why should we put our lives on hold b/c our ws doesn't like us anymore... or right now.. while they figure things out and find themsel ves... ugh! What a crock!

Is it worth 9 months or even 2 yrs of waiting for someone you love? You must decide, is he worth it.... very likely if you plan a and wait... he will likely come home- no gaurantee.. but it is one of the best ways to show your love.. by wiating and plan aing... the fog is thick and they are confused.

Surely the ow's do not have the love we the wives have,... to wait for them?

I don't know... surely ow's will lb eventually, surely their fantasies will start not to seem so wonderful.. this fantasy life without us?

But if what they truly want is a life without their families, then so be it/.... just give it time Kimmy.

I have been sepertaed 13 mnths and my spouse is all ov er the place.. one night wanting me, the next not, ... crazy crazy... I am starting to pull back the best I can and just not allow bad treatment of me by him... it is very very difficult.

If they want us back they do have to treat us right..

but you can move on for now wihtout another man, you can be fine without a man! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Hugs, HONEY

Wanted to add that I just don't think I can do this MB stuff any more. I'm obviously not strong enough to carry through a Plan. I worked on Plan A and never got any interest in return. Ended up hurt even more. Tried Plan B but I go crazy not seeing him and I'm just not disciplined enough, obviously. I can't see a plan through.
I have been strong in the fact that I had to find a full time job, buy a car, all of a sudden be a single parent, run the house on my own, and try to get over devastation of a H announcing out of the blue he didn't love me and was leaving. Add to that the previous months of dealing with the EA, and the 4 months of verbal mean, cruel stuff
and I know I have been strong. BUT..I just can't seem to stick with it. I'd almost rather do Plan A because then at least I get to do things for the man I love, but I know that will just end in disappointment again and could I even backtrack to Plan A now. Wouldn't that be confusing messages to him?

Maybe I'm just losing it as the holidays are coming. I don't know. I was smart and went to my doctor's last week and got a refill on my prescription as I'm pretty sure I'll need some to get me through the next 6 weeks, but I just want some sign. If only my H would just ask to see me once. I read so many posts here from H's who still want to sleep with their spouses, or see them. My H doesn't want either.

I know I've been considerate and kind, and still love him after all of this. I just feel depressed and frustrated and feel like what's the point of waiting longer, when I'll most likely be devastated and disappointed anyway? My H has never said he still loves me..ever. He only says he doesn't love me and has no feelings for me.

Hi Kimmy,

Go right back to Plan B, Hon.

One of the primary motives of Plan B, aside from being on your own and preparing for D if it does happen, is to no longer meet any of the WS needs.

When you rode in the car with your H you possibly met his need for either conversation or domestic support. And it doesn't sound like you LB'd in any way so don't worry too much about it, sweetie.

We all slip, I did a few times. So, go right back to Plan B. No real harm done.

God Bless ....

Lv,
Jo

<small>[ November 17, 2002, 03:28 PM: Message edited by: Resilient ]</small>

Hang in Kimmy. Dont give up. The guidelines here are just guidelines. We are all human and need to get through each day as we can. I think it is perfectly normal to see yourself in a different light...ie the dating...It may give you strength and perspective to get through. Bottom line is you have to do what you need to do to survive. The advice here is good. The plans here are good. But none of it is a magic formula...it is just the best way people have found so far. Take what you can from it and do your best for you. You are no failure. So what if you give him mixed signals once in a while...the way he acts he is on an entirely different planet where signals from reality dont reach anyway.

Fact: No One, including you can read his mind.

Fact: We all can offer conjecture on his mindset from our experiences but that is all it is educated conjecture. Take what we say, think about it and then do what you need to do to stay sane. Even if it is opening up yourself mentally to a different approach.

Dont worry about being fair to him or anyone else (Ofcourse your children being the exception-by whom you are doing a marvelous job). As long as you are honest with people others must worry about what is fair for themselves.

Also I am convinced he is still invovled in an affair at some level...whether it is two sided cannot be confirmed but he is in lala land. No denying his classic WS behavior.

So many times we try to emphasize the plan, which is not a bad thing but we cannot ignore that fact that BS are the ones getting the raw end of the deal any way you look at it. It stinks and it is not a failure or weakness to wince after taking the blows you continually recieve. If wincing for you is riding to the hockey game with him so be it. Just dont let him beat you down.

Hang in Kimmy. And if you ever want to email me youre welcome to...even if you just want me to email you a silly happy face card once and a while to cheer you up I can. If not its ok too.

Take each moment one at a time, take each day one at a time. You cant control him or even influence him unless he allows it. Do whatever you can for you.

ayslyne
ayslyne@yahoo.com

<small>[ November 17, 2002, 03:49 PM: Message edited by: ayslyne ]</small>

Thank you so much for your replies. Help me so much. I actually enjoyed riding in the car with him on Friday. It felt so good to talk to him. I can talk to other men, but I enjoy talking to him the most.

Re Plan B. Because I'm so bad at it, because I feel so weak..is it possible to go to Plan A again because the holidays are coming, or is that just a bad idea? This coming week it's our daughter's birthday, and she's in our local Xmas parade, and my son has hockey games every weekend, and then Christmas is coming, and I'm wondering if it's better (and easier for me for sure) to do Plan A again. Can you ever go back to Plan A or after all this time does it just give your H a signal that 'everything's fine'..you've adjusted and are now friendly.

My daughter told me this morning if we can't spend Xmas like usual, then she won't celebrate it. Obviously it can't be like usual, but would it be better re a Plan A, or will that just be too devastating and confusing to my H and for me.

I must admit, when I see him and am friendly and close to him it makes it harder for me as then I long for him more when he's gone. But..if it does meet his ENs because of the conversation, is that a bad thing or a good thing?

My sister just left here as she lives out of town so came for my daughter's birthday today and she said she wouldn't take him back ever, because of how cruel he's been to me since he left. I know logically that is the right thing, but I just can't let go of that possibility yet, even though I know the chances are slim. Also, does anyone else out there feel guilty because their family members tell you you'd be nuts to ever take them back, and so you feel if you ever did they'd think you'd lost your mind? Don't know why that bothers me..but it does. Especially if my H ever left again they'd be able to say they 'told me so' and I'd have to agree I suppose.

And..what about the fact that he sent my Mom a condolence card (previous post). Do you think that means anything or am I reading something into it?

I'm sorry if this is alot of questions. So confused.

And yes..I'm pretty sure he's involved in some type of A as well. Horrible to think that during this festive time he may be sharing activities with someone else.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Kimmy1:
Re Plan B. Because I'm so bad at it, because I feel so weak..is it possible to go to Plan A again because the holidays are coming, or is that just a bad idea? This coming week it's our daughter's birthday, and she's in our local Xmas parade, and my son has hockey games every weekend, and then Christmas is coming, and I'm wondering if it's better (and easier for me for sure) to do Plan A again. Can you ever go back to Plan A or after all this time does it just give your H a signal that 'everything's fine'..you've adjusted and are now friendly.

My daughter told me this morning if we can't spend Xmas like usual, then she won't celebrate it. Obviously it can't be like usual, but would it be better re a Plan A, or will that just be too devastating and confusing to my H and for me.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I really understand how you and your children feel, Kimmy. But IMHO I think you should stick to Plan B. You really shouldn't waffle back and forth. The car ride was not significant enough to really confuse your H, but if you lift Plan B sanctions now, your H will most defnitely be confused.

Kimmy? You did write and send a Plan B letter, correct?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I must admit, when I see him and am friendly and close to him it makes it harder for me as then I long for him more when he's gone. But..if it does meet his ENs because of the conversation, is that a bad thing or a good thing?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">It's a good thing in a way. It means that he looks to you for that need (convo), and when in Plan B, OW will have to fill it or it will go unmet.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">My sister just left here as she lives out of town so came for my daughter's birthday today and she said she wouldn't take him back ever, because of how cruel he's been to me since he left. I know logically that is the right thing, but I just can't let go of that possibility yet, even though I know the chances are slim. Also, does anyone else out there feel guilty because their family members tell you you'd be nuts to ever take them back, and so you feel if you ever did they'd think you'd lost your mind? Don't know why that bothers me..but it does. Especially if my H ever left again they'd be able to say they 'told me so' and I'd have to agree I suppose.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">People (family included) always say these type of things. I mean we probably said things like that too until we experienced betrayal in our marriages (i.e., "I'd kick him to the curb if he ever cheated on me"). Just stick to your resolve and stay strong, Hon.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">And..what about the fact that he sent my Mom a condolence card (previous post). Do you think that means anything or am I reading something into it? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">It really only means that he is a good man inside still, but his current actions or behavior right now don't measure up. He's not consistent.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I'm sorry if this is alot of questions. So confused.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Please don't ever apologize for questions or venting or needing help or support. We have all been in your shoes. We know how very very hard this is.

Prayers,
Jo

<small>[ November 17, 2002, 04:48 PM: Message edited by: Resilient ]</small>

Yes..I sent him the Plan B letter a couple of weeks ago. That's why I was so mad at myself for asking for the ride to hockey on Friday.

Re ENs conversation wise..I think he's having that EN met by his boss anyway, if that's who he's still having the EA or PA <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> with as I know when I found out about the EA he said she had become his best friend and they shared so much. Meanwhile, my H and I spent hours chatting after dinner many nights during the week and on the weekend, but guess it didn't have that added 'excitment' she provided.

I know I shouldn't waffle back and forth. That's why I feel so weak! And yes, my sister is right. Any smart woman wouldn't want someone who's treated her like this back! But a confused woman would.

Thank you so much for your comments. I'm trying, but it's so hard.

I struggle with feelings of self-hatred daily because I have ignored everyone. Every family member, friend, talk show host, etc. on the subject of staying married. All I can say is that we are all individuals, until you walk a mile in someone else's shoes you shouldnt judge. In the end it is not anyone in your family that has to live with the life you choose. They just love you...as does my family.

As to the card...again just conjecture...it is a way to assuage his guilt. He is having some sort of an A, he has abandoned his wife and children but hey he still can send a greeting card to someone he didnt really know or like-he is not such a bad guy after all...Minimizes his guilt and makes you wonder. So along with the bizillion other reasons he has made up in his mind as to why he is the nice guy and you are the anti-christ he can add "greeting card sent." Hope he breaks his arm patting himself on the back for that one. He is probably sitting at home saying to himself: "Yeah, I sent a card and Kimmy probably sent one of those darn meltable cheesecakes."

One thing I do know for sure...none of his actions are being tempered with common sense at this point. Everything he does is about him...his fantasy-land...his fog.

Finally, do what you can to survive. Just becareful about protecting yourself. The holidays are going to be tough. I know. For your own sake it is probably best to pull back...go to every xmas party and focus on you not on "if only it were you two." Right now his loss. Plan B really is for self preservation. It is difficult but it can help you to stop reopening the wound and pouring salt into it. But if there are moments where it seems unbearable for you to accomplish then dont beat yourself up.

As for interpretting what he thinks...with the brain cells he now has functioning...let us try a different approach.

Example...maybe when you asked for the ride to the game he thought "Wow, Kimmy is so unaffected by my presence that she has no problem riding in the same car with me this whole way. She is removing herself from me even in my presence. I dont affect her. She treats me like she treats someone in the car pool."

Now ofcourse my point is WE DO NOT KNOW WHAT HE IS THINKING. We BS tend to think the worst and feel like we are so transparent but you forget...doesnt matter if your transparent. HE IS IN THE FOG WITH BLINDERS ON.

BTW I studied law so I have a way of twisting scenario's to fit my objectives. So anytime you want to blow off steam I can find a silver lining in any situation. It is all about perspective...your perspective because the facts are few and far between and reality is after all relative.

Hang in kimmy

ayslyne

Kimmy?

Have you read Lotsva's Story?

I am going to bump it up for you to read. It needs it anyway.

Lv,
Jo

Ayslyne: Well, as usual, when you respond to my posts I find them humourous but SO thought-provoking and..I love the way you work that cheesecake story into everything <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

I never thought about the car ride that way. Thanks for giving me a different way to think about it. You are probably absolutely right about the condolence card. I know I was surprised, and found it thoughtful, as did my Mom. I never would have thought of it from another viewpoint which is probably right, unfortunately. Makes sense. He will look and feel like the good guy..at least to himself!

Thank you so much for your comments. I hope I do get invited to some parties. The biggest Xmas party for our friends, ironically enough, was thrown every year by my H and I. They were a tradition and everyone looked forward to them. We were famous for our great Xmas party and spared no food or drink. Good times.

Just in from shovelling the driveway. We had snow all day and it took over an hour to shovel it all. I don't mind doing that as I always did it anyway. Always enjoyed shovelling the driveway at night time when it was all quiet. Therapeutic for me I think. Just won't enjoy shovelling it in the morning. That will be a first as my H always left for work before me so would shovel what was necessary for us to get our cars out.

Resilient: Not sure if I've read that story or not. I'll look for it. Thanks.

Resilient: Thank you so much for bumping Lotsva's story. I hadn't read it before and it was amazing. But..made me feel inadequate too! I have definitely failed quite a bit during Plan A & B. Wish I had her determination to stay strong.

I found one particular part of the story extremely touching for me. She talked about the man who held her hand when her Mom was dying of cancer, and other examples of how her H had supported her, and how it was what kept her loving and respecting her spouse. My H has been very supportive over the years too..I spent 8 years looking for my brother who was given up for adoption as a baby, and I couldn't have done it without my H's emotional support. And, two years ago I tore my calf muscle, and spent 3 months on crutches..my H was so supportive and helpful. I can think of many more examples and I would have forgotten about that part of him if it wasn't for Lotsva's story.

Now I feel like I NEED to be patient and determined to not let my H go. I always knew I loved my H..just not this version of him.

Thank you for giving me the opportunity to read it. I wish my H was here right now so I could tell him thank you for all the support he showed me over the years!

You're very welcome, Kimmy.

You know Lostva is a very special lady. Her story has inspired many of us during the very darkest of times. Myself included more times than I can say.

We do our best in this very devistating circumstance. I am constantly in awe of the women and men that make it through this with their kids and are better and stronger people for it.

I don't have children and so for me that was both a minus and a plus. I didin't have to worry about them being hurt from the betrayal, but then again, I think it would have been comforting to have them to validate being my ex-h's family, because right now it feels as tho I had never existed in that capacity.

I admire you for your strength, Kimmy. I can only hope you see how amazing it is that you're keeping it together, even when you think you're not.

You have un-tapped strength that you're not even aware of. You can make it thru this, and you are going to make it thru this ... question is, how you DECIDE to make it thru it. You have choices. You really do, and you have control of what you do and how you react to things.

Keep posting as much as you need to. Vent, cry, scream here ... everyone knows how terrible and traumatic this is. There's times it feels like sheer torture. But you do make it thru it. I promise, and it does get better.

Lv,
Jo

<small>[ November 17, 2002, 09:34 PM: Message edited by: Resilient ]</small>

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Kimmy... I'm still with you... so glad that Resilient has pointed out Lostva's story... she was still posting occasionally when I found the board and her story INSPIRED me to no end... how could I give up when my H was still in the house... when he, albeit reluctantly, was still talking to me...

Resilient also nudged me along when I was despairing that my H would EVER give up OW...

Be as patient w/ yourself as you are w/ your H... you deserve some self-love, too. Remember that if we do our best... that's all we can do... and our best differs from day to day and circumstance to circumstance... we cannot beat ourselves up for the woulda, shoulda, couldas... we can only move forward...

HUGS and PRAYERS...
Cali