KIly,
Your post brought tears to my eyes. I'm sorry you're having a rough time, but it sounds like you have so much insight and wisdom into everything you've experienced.

I wish JL were around to respond, I feel inept at this moment. It does sound , however, like you're like me...in that you are alone for the first time and learning how to handle things alone in your life. I am in the same boat that way, and I have ten years on you!

Your sons sound fantastic, focus on that! Your older sons' words , reminding you that you are a family--what a testimony to the love and insight you've given him over the years.

I feel so badly at times, too, over what I've lost. I do then remember that I have my children, and they are my family. ExH is choosing to be alone at this point, I can't change that. Yes, I hurt him, but it's his choice to be where he's at right now. Yesterday he dropped a check off, and didn't even bother to ring the doorbell to talk with his sons. So there you are...

Haven't seen the Ya Ya movie. I'll have to rent it. I can relate too about feeling lost, and acting out in ways that didn't help me out in the end. I've said it before, and it'll sound like an excuse--so be it. I come from a long line of self-destructive people-compulsive gamblers, drinkers, two suicides in the family-so this was 'my way' of hurting myself? Going off with the OM-spending time with him.(He was creepy, too, in fact) WHo knows. Either way, at least I came out of it and am healing, as you are healing.

I don't know how it will turn out with your ExBf, but at least you've done all you can do to make things right. I know how you feel, so much so.

Sorry about your car. What a downer, especially with it being so new and also a VW. I've heard before that they're bears to repair.

What are you doing over Christmas? Will you be with your sons? I'll be alone this evening , cooking--and then DD will go with me to church. She will stay over here, and I"ll drive her back to her dad's in the morning. The whole family will come here in the PM.

Kily, I"m thinking of you. I understand how hard life can be. Don't you feel we're getting stronger, month by month? I think so!

Take care and God Bless,
H_P

Hi HP!

Thanks for your thoughts. Mine are with you as well.

I decided that I am NOT going to feel sorry for myself any longer. I've changed my position on things and some of what you said in your post really hits home with my own attitudes.

I've come to the understanding that XBF is the one that is missing out on spending time with ME and the kids. Similar to your feelings with your H, I feel that he is creating his own situation. If he thinks that his holiday will be better without me, then I wish him the best. (This, by the way, will be our first XMAS wothout each other. Even though I was seeing OP at this time, I still was with my "family" on the VERY significant holidays. )

I am planning on having a wonderful Christmas. I'm going to see my MOM tonight. This will be rough because we had a falling out back in June when I told her that I WANTED to go HOME to XBF. Long story, and although she understood and wanted to help, she didn't express her support in positive ways. I know that she wants for me to be happy and that she really LOVES XBF.

I bought him a great gift because I WANTED to see him smile and I'm going to give it and feel WONDERFUL no matter what his reaction! I also bought a small sentimental gift that is at the same time non-commital for his mother. Again, it's something that I WANTED to do. I don't really WANT anything in return other than for them to know that they are valuable to me.

I will have the kids from about 8:00 on. XBF is planning on stopping over at my Mom's house after his family has there thing. In case he does POP in, my MOM also bought him a small gift. It sure will be interesting.

We are expecting a BIG snow storm here starting after midnight. I will have the kids until around noon tomorrow and then XBF is planning on coming by to exchange gifts with my OS. I can't wait to see his face when he opens his gift. He is either going to LOVE it or completely HATE it. Probably both things. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

All in all, I am going to concentrate my thoughts on what this day is really all about. My boys will have a great holiday, and I am too.

I hope your family has a great time together. You will be in my thoughts and prayers.

And YES......I miss JL too.

Merry Christmas!

Kily and H_P,

Count your blessings; You both have more than you realize. I know you are both hurting, but the learning and the healing continues. Just logged on briefly.

Have a very Merry Christmas and a Great New Year.

I think I can safely predict that next year will be a much better year.

Kily, you are making more progress than you think. We will take next year at length about many things. I suspect you are getting ready to hear a different message.

God Bless,

JL

Hi ALL,

I had a really wonderful Christmas.

Christmas eve started out very melancholy, but as the night went on, I felt very peaceful and happy. XBF decided to change plans at last minute. We had shared some very POSITIVE phone conversations all day long. He must have called me at least 4 times between 9:00 and 4:00! I was really okay with things the way they were UNTIL at the last minute he mentioned that GF would be at his parents that night. Why tell me that? I felt like he WANTED to get some kind of reaction from me. I just don't understand what the point of it was.

My response to him was: "Why are you telling me this? Do you want me to cry and get upset or something? I have accepted that you have choices in your life, and you have made the choice NOT to be with me. You have to do what's right for you." Then I hung the phone up.

Then he had the nerve to BRING her to MY house when he dropped DS off! He didn't even walk the kid to the door! THe minute I went out to say hi, he peeled away like a bat out of he!!. I'm wondering what THAT was all about. I'm also wondering what kind of signals that GF is getting from this kind of behavior.....

OS came by around 11:00 and we stayed up until 1:00 wrapping gifts and talking. IT was really a hallmark moment for him and me because we continued talking about things. I always felt like I abandoned him during the YEAR that I moved into the beach house. I tried to tell him that at that time I wasn't capable of taking care of myself, let alone him or DS, but that I NEVER stopped LOVING him or wanting him. He really sprised me by telling me that if he felt abandoned by anyone, it was by his DAD. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

We got into some deep discussions about his father's expectations of him, and my feelings about him as a person. Then I told OS that I accepted him for who he was and that I loved him. It was such a wonderful moment for me because I realized that no matter what the distance, or circumstances are that keep us apart, OS and I will always have a VERY close, unique bond between us.

On to XMAS day -

DS and OS tore into their gifts, and we were having a quiet peaceful time as a family. XBF showed up at 10:00 and stayed for over an hour while the kids and I opened gifts from him. We gave him his gift from us too! It was a very awkward situation for all of us because there is so much uncertainty as to where we all fit in each other's life. When XBF went to leave, he actually came and hugged ME for a change. At that moment, all of the walls came down and instead of feeling distanced from him, I felt the recharging of my spirit. This suprised me because the distance was so overwhelming during his visit.

After he left, I received a call about 20 minutes later from DS. He wnet down the whole list of things that he unwrapped at DAD's house. DAD then got on the phone and thanked me for the gift again. He then thanked me for being friends. I told him that to me he would ALWAYS be FAMILY, and I wished him a Merry Christmas.

Here's what I got as gifts from DAD.
A beautiful shirt
Perfume
$100 gift cert, to the mall.
Mug with DS picture on it
Wooden craft magnet for the fridge

Not too bad considering that this man tells me that he doesn't love me and can't forgive me. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />
The only thing missing was a box of lingerie that he always bought me. Guess what I'm buying at the mall with the gift certificate!!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

I was really suprised with everything that he bought. I expected nothing and was really blessed. I was grateful that he even wanted to stop in for that small amount of time that he did. It was awkward, but it added much to my holiday.

The funny thing is that I went to the mall on XMAS eve and bought myself a bunch of gifts. I went into Christmas with a very humble attitude and with each gift I received, I became more grateful. The blessings I received made all of the sadness and darkness dissappear. It was the BEST Christmas that I've had in YEARS.

The last thing I want to share about my holiday was an experience that I shared with my OS's grandmother. She recently found breast lumps and had to have a masectomy to remove a cancerous lump. She lost her husband in March, and has had a rough year. After the New Year she will be starting full blown Chemotherapy. At this time she does not know if the cancer has spread throughout the rest of her body.

For Christams this year, I bought her a music box that had an Angel praying with a medallion in her hand. When I saw it in the store, I thought of the things that this woman has gone through in her life, and it seemed like the "RIGHT" gift to buy. On Christams day, I went to OS's father's houe to exchange gifts. OS went to open his gifts and after it was over, I realized that Grandma was not there to watch it. I asked OS's dad where GM was? He didn't notice until I said something. Finally, we called her into the room and i gever her my gift. She cried when she opend it. I was happy that she liked it.

A little later I called them for some small insignificant reason. GM answered the phone. She thanked me for the Angel. The next thing she said to me really brought it home for me.

She said:
Kily, I'm sorry that I didn't come down to watch OS open presents. I felt bad because I didn't buy YOU a gift. I decided to stay away and let you guys exchange you gifts. <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" />

I was dumbfounded!

This could be THE LAST Christams that this woman spends on earth with her GS. Instead of being able to celebrate the beauty in it, she missed it. Why, because she didn't have a gift...for ME? OMG!

I cried when she told me this because I NEVER expected or WANTED a gift from her! I told her that all I wanted was to spend time with them and enjoy the love that we all shared for each other. Isn't that what Christmas is all about?

It made me think about all of the things that I denied MYSELF over the years because I didn't feel deserving. I saw so much of the things that I missed out on because I wasn't brave enough to talk about what I felt or thought. It made me see how completely WRONG my perspective could be in a situation. It made me sad to think that she is punishing herself the way that I used to......

What a great Christams Gift......

Hi Kily,
I'm so happy that you had a great Christmas. I feel very uplifted having read your words, and your experience! Thanks.

It seems that XBf does want a reaction from you, and it also seems obvious he still does care about you very much. You said to him,

"Why are you telling me this? Do you want me to cry and get upset or something? I have accepted that you have choices in your life, and you have made the choice NOT to be with me. You have to do what's right for you."

Good for you! I like how you mentioned the choice to him, so he could think about that for awhile.

I can't imagine what his idea was in dropping off DS with GF in car. Do you think GF had a curiosity about seeing you, or has she already in some other venue? Did he want to 'show off' that he was with her, on that day? If I were GF, I would have insisted on not being in the car in that way, and I would have let him take DS home, and walk him in--as young as he is. I don't know what it all means, Kily. Others here will have a better take, I 'm sure. Bottom line though, if I were GF I wouldn't have liked the whole thing, but then she allowed to be part of the 'drop off' scene in that way.

Glad you had such a fantastic late Christmas EVe with your OS. Remind me, exactly how old are both of your kids again? It seems to me OS is a young teen, right?

That's wonderful that XBf stayed around why you opened gifts. Your situation is such a contrast to mine, in so many ways. BEfore your A, was your BF a good communicator? Affectionate? Does he like to talk, and communicate via phone, etc, as a rule? Just curious as to what he's like as a man. And he gave you a hug? This is such a good sign, Kily.

It's wonderful that he gave you so many lovely gifts. I wonder what GF thinks about that?
This man certainly does have very strong feelings for you.

You're right, Christmas is so much better when we think about our gratefulness and what we can give to others.

Take care Kily and enjoy your day!

H_P

Hi All,

HP in answer to your questions.....

You bought me a VERY nice bottle of SAMSARA. I am wearing it today!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I can't imagine what his idea was in dropping off DS with GF in car. Do you think GF had a curiosity about seeing you, or has she already in some other venue? Did he want to 'show off' that he was with her, on that day? If I were GF, I would have insisted on not being in the car in that way, and I would have let him take DS home, and walk him in--as young as he is. I don't know what it all means, Kily. Others here will have a better take, I 'm sure. Bottom line though, if I were GF I wouldn't have liked the whole thing, but then she allowed to be part of the 'drop off' scene in that way.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I'm not sure WHAT he is thinking. I've never met her although she does work for the company that I worked for for over fourteen years so I'm certain people have described me to her.

I keep thinking that he took off because he was afraid. For some reason he thinks that either I'm going to TELL her things about him to make her stop caring about him, or that he is afraid that she will see that there is STILL a connection between the two of us. Of course both of these things are probably so far from the truth....

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">That's wonderful that XBf stayed around why you opened gifts. Your situation is such a contrast to mine, in so many ways. BEfore your A, was your BF a good communicator? Affectionate? Does he like to talk, and communicate via phone, etc, as a rule? Just curious as to what he's like as a man. And he gave you a hug? This is such a good sign, Kily.

It's wonderful that he gave you so many lovely gifts. I wonder what GF thinks about that?
This man certainly does have very strong feelings for you.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">It was nice to have him there, but it WAS very uncomfortable for both of us. I can't really explain what I felt in good words because I don't understand it. Lately, I feel like I've gone into self protection mode again and it was very noticeable then.

I think the best description of it is that I am actually cutting off the feelings because it's too painful to face the continuous rejection that he has towards me. That is why I was very suprised to feel the "RE-CHARGING" again when he hugged me. I am starting to believe that I am feeling indifferent to him, but this little HUG leads me to really wonder if I'm lying to myself.

My children are ages 14 and 5. They ARE truly the BEST thing that ever happened to me. I just wish that I could give them the traditional family that they deserve. If that's one thing I've come to learn and value, it's the importance of having BOTH parents raising them.

It was really nice to have everyone together, even for a very short time. XBF was the type of man that would call me at work 4 or 5 times a day. When I first became involved with him I found this to be very sweet and reassuring. After a while, I started to feel controlled because he would get angry if I had to put my job first. He would get ANGRY because THAT call wasn't the TOP priority in my life. MY JOB WAS! This became extremely suffocating because we actually worked in the same building. At times I felt like I wasn't a person without him.

I'm not sure if GF even knows that he bought me all of those gifts. I'm sure that a couple of them they bought together, because they are SAFE gifts. I sincerely doubt that she knows about the perfume, shirt, or gift certificate. I know that if I was in her place and the roles were reversed, I'd be VERY threatened by those types of gifts purchased for an XGF.

I'm not sure what to feel or think about everything anymore. I dropped DS off at the house this morning and I was overcome by this really deep sadness for all that WE have lost. I was sitting in my car, trying to hold my emotions in check when XBF came outside in his Jammies and BARE feet to bring me my mail. I just sat there thinking how WRONG all of this is. When I drove away the tears just started to flow and the pain started to resurface.

Why can't I just let it go and accept that he HAS moved on? I keep waiting for the phone to ring and for him to say: Come home. Let's fix this..... THen there are other times where I get so angry, that I am CERTAIN that ending thisw as the right thing to do. It's all so confusing.

Like last night. I picked DS up and the first thing he tells me when he gets in the car is "Daddy told me that I ruined Christmas!" <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" /> DS was in overeload because he woke up extremely early. He was acting out and I guess dad was reacting with these words. This was a typical behavior that he had with OS and led to much repressed anger in me. My heart went out to DS, but the situation just triggered the memory of the anger. I HATED him in that moment for the reaction and was completetly convinced that leaving was the right thing.

Then I sit and think about it and all of the things I learned get me to view it differently. I see the wounds that he received as a child, and I see the GOOD person behind the BAD behavior. I am able to forgive and explain to DS what DAD meant when he said the bad words.

WHY can't he give me another chance?

<small>[ December 27, 2002, 11:37 AM: Message edited by: kily ]</small>

Hi All.

NY was a WHOLE lot a fun. I drove in to the city with both kids and the OS's dad. Older SON and DAD took off to the WWF CAFE and DS and I went to dinner with the MB gang! It was really nice to meet some of the people whose stories I have been following over the last few months, and it was a bit humbling to know that these people have read my deepest thoughts and pains. SO many of us with SAD hearts had such fun for a day.

Not much has changed in my SAGA except that DAD has gone into complete withdrawl from me. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> I am really having a hard time accepting that he will never want me to be a significant part of his life again. I'm really hurting because I've allowed myself to feel the things that I have kept deeply guarded. I can't ever express to him what these feelings are or what he means to me. He would simply write me off and tell me - tough you wanted your freedom, you've got it.

Even if he sat and listened, he never would believe me because I've lied to him so many times. He doesn't want to be empathetic towards me because that only gave him pain. I keep hoping that his "heart" will listen to mine and "know" what the truth is.

I guess this is a childish attitude. I NEED to believe that if we really LOVE each other, and are meant to be together, we will be. I keep praying that he will eventually come to the same conclusions that I did, and decide to work on the "R" problems. At times the inner child in me takes over and the FEAR overtakes me that he will NEVER see me as a WORTHY person again. Sometimes I think that he is too stubborn to ever open up to what he feels.......

Why am I such a mess? I'm trying SO hard to build a life, but this has SO much power over me......

<small>[ December 30, 2002, 10:28 AM: Message edited by: kily ]</small>

Hi Kily,
I was glad to see your posting this morning. BTW, glad that you chose Samsara from me. The packaging is beautiful, as well as the scent.

I read that in today's posting you felt like exBF was more in a state of withdrawal again. I'll talk about my situation more on my thread, but just to let you know right away--you mentioned that I seemed more upbeat and positive than before. Actually, I think in reality I am now seeing things with a more realistic view, and quite frankly most of the time I really don't see much hope at all .

But, as for what you've said-- </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I keep thinking that he took off because he was afraid. For some reason he thinks that either I'm going to TELL her things about him to make her stop caring about him, or that he is afraid that she will see that there is STILL a connection between the two of us. Of course both of these things are probably so far from the truth....

</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Kily, from what I know of you 'here', on the MB, I can't imagine you doing the first thing you mentioned, that is-telling his GF things about xBF. Wouldn't the second choice be a little more closer to reality? Also, he could have just been avoiding an uncomfortable situation by taking off, but why did he have her tag along in the first place?

You said
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I think the best description of it is that I am actually cutting off the feelings because it's too painful to face the continuous rejection that he has towards me. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">How well I know what you're saying. The continuous rejection part kind of puzzles me, in a way. I don't feel this man has continually rejected you at all. He has called you to talk just 'because', he has come over to your home after you two couldn't end a R conversation on the phone, and he brought you gifts--to name a few things he's done that to me don't show rejection.

My SIL and I were talking one day, and she told me about a saying she heard that was, "Comparison is the root of all unhappiness."

That being said, I just want to say that in comparing your xBF's actions towards you with my exH's non-actions toward me, I see that yours hasn't completely rejected you at all. He came over and HUGGED you, on Christmas? Please, I think you just need to ---like me--be more patient even than you've been.

I hear what you're saying about giving your kids the traditional family they deserve. Well, you know Kily--many people have had a traditional family, and they would have traded their two fighting, indifferent parents in a second for having/living with one divorced/single parent who loves them and isn't constantly in some state of personal turmoil. Now of course I realize that you're talking about a traditional family, with two happy parents at the helm, not two maladjusted , warring ones. All I'm saying is please don't underestimate your own value, or the value of you as their MOM.

So it sounds like your xBF was quite communicative, when you were together. xH and I rarely talked when he was at work, well--for one thing at that time he didn't have phone availability. Even if he had, I don't think he and I would have talked. He is simply not a talker, at all. In our marriage I'm sure we rarely talked on the phone at all for more than five minutes, unless he was away on a trip.

You also said,
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> He would get ANGRY because THAT call wasn't the TOP priority in my life. MY JOB WAS! This became extremely suffocating because we actually worked in the same building. At times I felt like I wasn't a person without him.

</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I always rather dislike bringing up OM as far as R talk goes, but I have to be realistic and know that I did spend just under FOUR years involved with the man, one way or another. I have to feel I learned something from that R, too, in a way, even if the whole premise of it was wrong and a huge mistake. Anyway, OM was like this--calling me a lot, being upset if I couldn't give him all my attention at that precise moment of his call. So, Kily, I can relate to feeling smothered. I truly did, by OM--at times. And ..in my case, this was so completely opposite of my xH, who never called, and didn't seem to ever need me at all.

I know how it feels, to have your tears flow so readily all the time. It happens to me now almost EVERY time I've just seen or had a conversation with exH. I think it's just something we have to go through, no matter how this turns out.

Kily, I could have written these words--
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Why can't I just let it go and accept that he HAS moved on? I keep waiting for the phone to ring and for him to say: Come home. Let's fix this..... THen there are other times where I get so angry, that I am CERTAIN that ending thisw as the right thing to do. It's all so confusing. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I awakened this morning feeling very much that way. Maybe it was the right thing, even though I went about it the wrong way. When I see how xH is behaving now, I think that way.

Glad your MB gathering went well. I read a bit about it on that thread--somewhere here on MB--and people were complimenting your son's behavior , and how cute he was! Isn't that nice?

You said in your second posting that you could never express to your xBF what he meant to you, etc, as he would just write it off. I still feel you could tell him, even in a letter--but somehow I think you'll have the chance to say it again to him. If not for him, then you can say it for you!

I agree with what you said, completely: </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I NEED to believe that if we really LOVE each other, and are meant to be together, we will be... Sometimes I think that he is too stubborn to ever open up to what he feels.......
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Once again, Kily, I could have written this, too. I think I will go to a Divorce Recovery group soon, at a local church. Perhaps this will help me--I know you weren't legally married, but perhaps this sort of program would be great for you, too.

BTW, you aren't a mess at all. Neither of us really are, are we? It just has its ups and downs, and right now--you're in the downs. So am I, and I am beginning to again remember my 'epiphany' of a few months ago~~If he can't see I'm a worthy person, I can't change a thing. It's his choice he's making, to not forgive and live life this way.

Hope this has all made sense.
Take care,
H_P