It'll be 1 yr since D-day for me in exactly 2 months. What do I want 2 do? Celebrate? ;o) obviously not. Make ultimatims? No. Sit on my hands? Heck no, but I've felt like that's just what I've been doing a lot of lately. Do I feel like I'm still doing that? Not really, and I'll explain. Is this the question institute? (I ripped that off Chick Hearn, who did something like this on a Smothers Brothers special about 15 years ago!)...

Hokay, here's where I think I'm at.

*My W emailed Rat Meat while we were out of state a couple of weeks ago, having a great time until the drive home and the convo we had then. The "where do you see yourself in 5 years?" 2uestion seems 2 stem from those emails, though I don't know what the content of the emails was...

*My W emailed Rat Meat this past Thursday. So, she's obviously still "continuing her secret 2nd life" - whether that's what she WANTS or NOT, I can't tell, and isn't really that important 2 me, because of what I’ve learned and what I believe I must even2ally do (or WE’LL be able 2 do!).

*My W MISSED ME when I was gone for 2.5 days last week on a field trip. She loves me!!!

*Affairs are NOT "like an addiction", they ARE an addiction - CHEMICAL, the whole 27 feet (like runners addicted 2 endorphines). This is absolutely true, I'm convinced. I want 2 be "there" 2 help her recover from this addiction.

*I LOVE MY W. I'm convinced of this, 2! ;o) But that doesn't mean that I have 2 live with her for the rest of my life. I can love her “unconditionally as a "family acquaintance", if that's what's called for.

*I need closure. Look, my W’s "right". Even though she hasn't really vocalized this "rightness", what this means 2 me is that she's entitled entirely 2 make her own decisions about whether 2 have any kind of relationship with Rat Meat that she wants - personal, professional, intimate, adversaries (I had 2 throw that one in - it makes me smile!). But I have every right 2 decide what I will "enable" or "allow" or "tolerate". Right now, even though I feel pretty self-secure in many ways, I don't intend 2 tolerate Rat Meat in any part of our lives for the rest of our lives. What I say 2 my W and when I say it is the issue for me. I realized since the field trip last week that I still hold a fair amount of hatred for Rat Meat, lately because he "won't go away" in my view (limited though it is because I don't know what's said). I think I need 2 overcome that hate if I'm going 2 expect 2 be able 2 voice my concerns/fears 2 my W in a completely loving way. And I feel like that's the only way 2 proceed.

*My W is "trying" 2 get closure of sorts. Spacecase, I remember when you and I tried 2 understand or get some elaboration on what it means when the WS says "I'm trying. Doesn't it mean anything?" I'm still trying 2 understand what "trying" 2 end an A means, but I think I'm getting "the hang" of understanding better than ever before. I think I need 2 learn more, though. I won't "make any move" until I feel like I've gotten some serious "where" in this area.

*My W wants 2 continue the working relationship with Rat Meat so as 2 have "comparable data" on her next projects. This is completely unacceptable 2 Mrs. Meat, and 2 me as well. I don't "see myself" waiting on closure on this for over a year from now (but then, I didn't "see" myself putting up with being unable 2 live in my own house over a year after the fire!). I left my W with the thought, again, that "the only way that could work is if we all could sit down 2gether and agree on what form of relationship would be harmless 2 both our families". I said that knowing just how ridiculous that sounds (and thanks, Just Learning, for the discussion of this months ago!!). My W hates that job, and in some ways it sounds 2 me like she's waiting for SOMEONE other than her 2 simply say "quit!" Anyway, I need 2 get 2 a state where I can feel completely unemotional about telling my W that I won't tolerate any kind of relationship with Rat Meat if we're 2 be M'd. This will take some level of detachment on my part, or at least detaching from my hatred of Rat Meat.

*My W has said many times that she "doesn't want 2 go back 2 the way it was before D-day". I've said "neither do I" many times as well, but what does that mean??? Remember, between this time last year and D-day in January, we were getting along and being closer than ever before, because my W believed she had ended her A and was "trying" 2 be closer. And it was working. Why? Well, part of it is that I had gotten 2 a point in my life that I was realizing that I didn't need 2 "react out of spite" 2 her angry outbursts about me not "doing enough for/with my family" and had been working with my son for several months on flying model planes, and in general talking 2 him and my D about whatever was on their minds - basically connecting better than I had before. So, where are we now? Well, it feels very much like that 2 months, except NOW I know my W has had 2 As with Rat Meat (and isn't "done" with him yet). So, though she's insistent that she doesn't want 2 "go back", I feel very much like that's exactly what's happening, because the secrecy, and some form of the R, continues.

And so, I feel like I'm approaching a crossroads, but I want 2 have all my aquatic fowl oriented coaxially before I say anything that sounds like an ultimatim...

Hanta Yo!!!

Hi 2long,
Quite a while ago we had a little discussion about asking her to help you get over things. It probably wasn't the right time for it, looking back, but it may work now. I have always been big on communication, because once I didn't have much with my W, and now it is really good and it has made all the difference for us.

Perhaps you have already breached this kasim but it seems there are still topics that are taboo, and there should not be. Someday you have to "go there" or it will never be what you want. Perhaps that is what you were trying to say about the ducks, it's not time yet? Remember I am not talking about the "end all" discussion, just improving communication and being able to discuss things painful to you to help you get over the pain.

You may be able to get into it slowly ( if you feel you won't LB, I realize this was a big one once.) I am really glad you are doing so well personally, and I feel you understand things well, and are doing the right things, and many that come here don't.

Really I admire you for what you have been able to do, please accept this as genuine praise, I don't make it a habit to say things I don't mean.

SS

<small>[ November 18, 2002, 01:54 PM: Message edited by: still seeking ]</small>

Thanks, SS.

I really appreciate this. I agree that we need 2 talk more about what hurts, without hurting each other 2 much. It's hard determining what the limits are, when approaching them hurts!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> But I think we're both getting better at it, at least incrementally.

I don't think that a "backslide event" could even occur at this stage without me either sensing it or my W ac2ally telling me about it right away. We've come that far, at least. What I mean is that I know of at least 2 occaisions now, since May, that Rat Meat has been in our area, and "wanted 2 see WW" but "it wasn't in the cards". I don't know what cards say or don't say, or include or don't include, but I do believe that if my W were 2 have seen Rat Meat in the past few months, it would be impossible for her 2 hide the fact from me. ...so we've made progress.

I know she's still in contact because it's in her IE history menu. I'm not quite ready 2 "burn that chip" yet, though, but I may be soon. And I believe we need that, maybe even if we "can't" stay M'd. But I also believe we can! And so can the "Meat family"! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

I didn't do a very good job of getting my "aquatic fowl oriented coaxially" before I had to move to plan B. You have always cracked me up/I really appreciate your sense of humor although I don't post much to you.

I also admire your ability to stay focused and your optimism. When I found out about more contact I had to make a shift because I knew I couldn't keep up my plan A anymore. You have incredible patience. Best 2 you.

uh:

Well, I wouldn't say it's that I have a lot of patience, I just haven't got a clue what ELSE 2 do! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

On the subject of learning of continued contact, I just found evidence that the "first A" lasted longer than I thought, at least the contact did. Doesn't change NOW very much, or shouldn't, but it sure bums me out. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

2long

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">...aquatic fowl oriented coaxially...</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">2Long, I am stealing that line! I love it! Wow, 2 months to go! My anniversary is March 10th. I am sure my WW will not even remember what month she told me, let alone the date or even what day of the week it was! I told everyone in MB before that the OM is/was a mutual friend whose D is best friends with our D and that OM and my W take turns with school pick-ups and drop-offs, and, that when my W goes to his house in the morning to pick-up his D, OM brings her a fresh cup of coffee (How F***ing quaint). Anyway, I was making coffee the other morning before I left for work and I told her the creamer was almost gone and that there was probably just enough for one cup. She said for me to take it. And I said, "Oh yeah, you get coffee from Steve in the morning, hunh?" Well, I meant one Steve and she thought I meant the OM Steve, so she said, No, not this week, I don't pick-up his D this week. So I said, no, I meant the neighbor Steve. And she said, oh, well I already told you OM Steve brings coffee to me in the car when I pick-up his D, but I don't like it.

WOW. She said she doesn't like it. That was the 1st time she ever indicated that she had a problem with OM at all. Did I mention that I had to pick-up my Step-D from OM's house about 3 wks ago? And how strange it was to see him after almost a year? Well, the W tried to send me over to pick-up her D once again from OM's house and I looked at her and said Are you joking? You really think I want to see him every f***ing week? So she left and went to pick-up D, but was gone for alomst an hour or so. She comes home and I look at her like "what the h3ll took so long?" and she said, Well, he made some coffee and we had a smoke! I told you to go instead, but you didn't! Hmm, what's that message? She is so full of dichotomies and contradictions that I lose count of them.

Anyway, for you, who has exhinited so much patience and so much tolerence and so much wisdom, I ask you again, have you laid down for yourself some concrete goals/boundaries/limits for your W and yourself and your M, that will trigger specific actions in response to specific actions (or non-actions, as the case may be). I know you won't tolerate what's happening forever, but I always get this sense of time ambiguity in your postings. Again, I bring up the analogy of drawing a line in the sand and warning the partner that there'll be bad consequeneces if they cross it, then they do, and then you respond only by drawing yet another line in the sand for them to cross. What I am getting at here is that in some ways perhaps, the WS needs to be treated in a manner similar to disiplining a wayward child. Firm boundaries with good or bad consequences following good or bad (acceptable/non-acceptable) behaviors. I know you love your wife immensely (very obvious to all of us here), but there has to be a price that you are not willing to pay to keep her in the fold of a marriage union. I mean, at what point does one decide to get rid of the car (WS/Marriage) that they love so much only because the cost of maintenence (Love Bank) begins to exceed the car's actual worth or the pleasure it brings?

I admire your great intellect and reasonings, and I think it quite heroic in some ways for taking on this task of saving your marriage, but where's the end-of-line? I know we are human and change daily, so you may not know where the "end" is inside of you yet, but still, I am not sensing any concrete timeline or boundaries coming from you. I know each couple and individual is different, but when I read postings in here of spouses who immediately end all contact, and even go to the length of moving or changing jobs to insure that NC is maintained to help the BS feel better about recovery, and then I look at the difference in what your spouse is willing to do to end the A and make you more comfortable and help save the M, it is like Night and Day.

Granted, I feel like my WW is not exactly doing back-flips for me either. You sound so much like me, and your situation feels so similar in some ways to mine, it is from my own experiences that I make these comments.

In my mind, if my W doesn't make solid respectable and positive changes in her behaviors by the one year anniversary, it will be time to move on for me. She said she wanted somehting different and better, but she stills acts the same as before D-Day. I see little change. Her comment about not liking the OM bringing her coffee everyday is a small thing. But I ask myself, did she say that only for my benefit? If she feels that way, then why did she stay for an hour at OM's house when she picked-up her D? Actions speak louder than words. Are you listening to your W's actions? Are you listening to your true inner-self? I know that you are very introspective and self-examining, so I am sure you question this everyday and reevaluate it continuously, as do I. But again, a buiding without form is no building. You are trying to build-up your M (The House) again but the plans for it keep changing, so the final house is gonna look like S**t!! (Sorry, I couldn't help myself)

Anyway, 2Long, good luck to you in your continued efforts to save, heal, and rebuild your marriage.

Regards,

Scott

<small>[ November 19, 2002, 08:47 AM: Message edited by: Blind Sided ]</small>

Blind:

Well, I don't know what happened 2 it, but I had a long reply 2 your post...

Dont' want 2 retype it, but suffice it 2 say that I think I'm doing this as rightly as I know how. I'm not going 2 put up with the contact indefinitely, or the distraction from my work, or the impact on my family - none of those things for long.

I've stated my boundaries here and 2 my W many times over the past several months. But I think my "plan" gelled 2 its present state in August. And I'm comfortable with what I plan 2 do. I think it's working, 2.

I frankly can't understand why I still post 2 this 4um. I get little response, just from a handful of people that have "been there" for me all along. I also don't feel like I've been able 2 contribute much 2 other peoples' sitches lately.

It's not that I'm bitter or anything, it's just that I find myself wondering if I'm spending 2 much time here for the limited feedback I do get. Takes time away from getting my work done, 2.

It's true, 2. If you're not in the midst of trying 2 end a steamy, sordid A, then you don't attract much attention. Maybe I need 2 head my threads with something like "Nuke the unborn, gay, baby Grey Whale" or something along those lines? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Well that's good to hear. I haven't been able to keep up with everyone lately so I may have missed a lot of more recent postings over the last few weeks. Like I said, each of us is an individual and only you can accurately assess your ability to perservere, and only you can accurately ascertain what is happening at the home-front and whether or not it is an acceptable pace of progress for you or not. I'll be watching! I'll try to visit these pages more often to keep up with everyone. Best wishes.

Oh, by the way, after I lost a few long-winded postings online, I started to create my postings in a word document, do a spell-check, then copy/paste the final version into the MB Forum, then delete (don't save) the blank word document that I wrote on my Desktop. It works good.

Why do you still post?

This is probably a much more complicated thing than you realize. If we could answer that one, we may be able to answer everyones question about why their spouse had an A, and I always considered that impossible for most cases.

In fact you do help many here and in some (lots) of the cases I have seen you are the only one I can see that could give proper insight. So after considering this post of yours, I need to ask: 2long, are you OK ??
I mean more than can you tie your shoe laces in the morning, don't give the usual answers.

I often wish I could be better help because it is sometimes hard for me to think of a reply. I also wish I had more time but there is nothing I can do about that in this life.

Anyway, I am glad you come around, and would miss you if you didn't.
SS

Still:

"Why do you still post?"

Oh shoot, you don't know either!? ;o)

"This is probably a much more complicated thing than you realize. If we could answer that one, we may be able to answer everyones question about why their spouse had an A, and I always considered that impossible for most cases."

It is. I'm still trying 2 figure out why my W had her A. She has never been able 2 tell me herself in her own words. But can there really be "no reason?" Maybe, I don't know.

"In fact you do help many here and in some (lots) of the cases I have seen you are the only one I can see that could give proper insight."

Well, thank you very much. I hope that's true. I guess in some ways I realize this, but wonder if I'm so "good" at helping others, why can't I "fix" my own problem after all this time??

"So after considering this post of yours, I need to ask: 2long, are you OK ??"

Good 2uestion. How 2 answer? Trouble is, "okay" doesn't mean very much. I think I'm doing "okay", but by that, I mean I'm not going nuts, I'm not sniping from a rooftop (in Rat Meat's hometown ;o)), I'm with my family and we're making long-term plans... I'm definitely not "doing badly" or "doing very well", but would like 2 be able 2 say I'm doing better than just "okay", but can't.

"I mean more than can you tie your shoe laces in the morning, don't give the usual answers."

Yes, I can tie my shoes, but I learned how with the "rabbit comes out of his hole, runs around the tree, and ducks back down his hole" routine. When I saw my W tie her shoe once without so much as using the TREE, I was shaken, utterly! But I still can tie my shoes if I use the bunny and the tree...

"I often wish I could be better help because it is sometimes hard for me to think of a reply."

Well, you've definitely been one of those that has "been there" for me all these months. Thanks for that.

"I also wish I had more time but there is nothing I can do about that in this life."

Me neither, I guess!

"Anyway, I am glad you come around, and would miss you if you didn't."

Thanks. I guess I need 2 work on that "fix yourself" issue...

2Long U R 2 much.

Sometimes people don't post because they are suffering from 'counselor's block' (can't think about anything constructive to writte about). Other times it might be because of time constraints in their lives. The lamest excuse would probably be that the cat pushed the delete button on the keyboard and all the wonderful, life changing advice they had for you that was the product of so much blood,sweat and tears on their part (hey I still remember the old David Clayton Thomas ensemble) disappeared into never neverland. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

I'd give you a hug except I'm a short guy and you are tall dude and it would look mighty weird if you catch my drift. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

2long,

I for 1 (and I suspect many other feel the same way too...) would MISS your humor.

To be able to laugh about some of the shi++ we deal with on a daily basis is the greatest gift you give!!!

Thank you, for that! CSue

2Long ....

I wonder why I continue to post.

I wonder why I sometimes can't think of any appropriate response to heartfelt musings of really hurting souls.

I wonder if I could tolerate and Plan-A during an ongoing affair right under my nose.

I wonder if human nature is static or evolving.

Pep-in-a-box

ive been gone because my computer finally died. i think all the work it got from me posting killed it-and maybe a few tears in the keyboard!!!

im sorry to hear about the contact and things you are going through. i dont know if you read my update, but i found out hubby was still lying to me and i had it and told him to get out. he has an appt with steve tomorrow.

please dont consider giving us up, we all need each other. i have been gone about 3 weeks and dont recognize 80% of the people here. the newbies dont post to us much.

anyway-we all need you.

Pepper:

When I saw your name on my thread, I ac2ally thought you'd be ripping out my spline, holding it up, and making me LOOK at it. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> And maybe sometimes that's what I need.

But I appreciate your points. I'll hang in there!

I finally realized why my DH had an affair ....

This is our truth .... and may not be typical.

My H did not KNOW how much I love him.

I left that garden unattended .... and weeds took over.

He says ... the way I love him now ... it is impossible for him to avoid bumping into my love on a daily basis. He feels loved down to his toes.

I think that's possibly where you are headed 2L .... but, your wife has pissed me off !!(WATCH OUT NOW .... this red-head has a temper)

"Addiction" or no addiction.... she is being a buttock orifice continuing this nonsense after seeing first hand the torture it causes you.

Want me to have a "chat" with her??? LOL! Just kiddddding (sorta)

PeptoBismol

Pepper:

We ac2ally made an offer about 6 years ago, on a Victorian that was painted pink. We called it the "Pepto Bismol House". Thankfully, they 2rned us down - I would have had as long a drive in 2 work as I did be4, but with 210 traffic all the way in the WRONG direction both ways! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

I wonder if my sitch isn't more similar 2 yours than we think. I was so shocked by my W's A in large part because I've never stopped being pretty crazy about her. I just didn't show her darn near enough. But I am now!!! And she's responding. But, like JL said months back, her A with RM went on for so long, that it's going 2 take longer than "normal" (whatever the f*** THAT is) for her 2 get over it.

I just had a convo with a mu2al friend of ours. And you know what occurred 2 me? I woudln't be surprised if this "resolves itself" imperceptably. By that I mean, we're clearly getting closer and happier, in spite of all the house woes (we may have 2 sue, now). I wouldn't be surprised if we find ourselves with "closure", having rebuilt our M (whatever that is) and completely unable 2 remember when the transition occurred. Just a thought.

PS were you out in your yard @ 2AM for the light show in the heavens??? I forgot to set my alarm.... sleeeeeep was calling my name.

I'm about to take some teenagers to Bob's BigBoy (the cool one with Bob's statue in front ...in Toluca Lake) .... wanna break bread with 13 year old hormonal girls ????

No?? ... didn't think so. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Poppyseed

Pep:

No, I was staring at my eyelids during the whole thing. Heard it was cool, but not as exciting as expected.

I am going 2 try 2 get up early enough 2 watch a partial occultation of Callisto by Europa at 5:08am PST (13:08 UT), through my scope, though. Going 2 be hard, though. My time outdoors during the night was one of the "problems" I had before D-day, and so I haven't done anything with it since January... we'll see. <oops, that's Thursday am, not 2morrow. The one 2morrow is between Io and Europa, at 5:47am..

13-yr olds? I could get in2 2much 2rouble, 2easily! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

<small>[ November 19, 2002, 07:26 PM: Message edited by: 2long ]</small>