Hi Lisa,
OK, he rejected you, said NO. He hurt you. And what do you do? You hurt him back. You dont tell him good night. You mention OM and give the impression that he's your backup plan.
Not good, Lisa! Look: he is responsible for his actions. if he does hurtful things, he has to look himself in the eyes for that. but *YOU* are responsible for *your* actions. and if you decide to push him away, to hurt him, then that's up to you of course, but certaintly wont help the situation. So, be a nice girl now - if you're too hurt or down, take 5, or tell him you simply cant see him for X days as you're too upset. OK?
N

Nick - I know, not very MB, but I have tried and tried, and then he runs out on us. I won't have to worry about taking time out because he is off to Germany tomorrow for 7 days so, I won't see him. Tonight he is taking his girls out, and I am seeing a friend - I need some support.

I just feel perhaps it would be best to just had straight for DV - I think his attitude of seperation is different from mine......

Any other advice appreciated.

Lisa

Yeah, yeah, I see what you mean. Once in a while I want to pack my bags, make it quick & painless and just leave. Once in a while I want to shout: You made the last 3+ years hell for me. I didn’t receive anything. Now at least, I understand! How could I have succeeded when your heart (and other organs too) were busy with someone else?? So let me cut my losses & get on with my life. Bye.
But the other guy on my shoulder says: There's still a chance; see the positive signs; you wont really solve the problems, but the problems will follow you; take the baby steps; you can do it; it's the right thing to do etc etc.

Not sure who of the two guys will win in the end.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Lisa in London:
<strong>He's taking the flat. Has paid a holding deposit, with a view to signing contracts and moving on 7th December.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Bugger.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>He says this is not even so much about the A, but about how he feels, desperate to feel some peace, get some space, not continue being involved in his abusive behaviour.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">OK but there needs to be an indication of action on his part and that is what you are not getting. There is no "moving forward" plan be it reconcile or part. In truth Lisa it is leading to parting which is why I dont like the idea of a spouse leaving.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>I said that if we went to MC it would take the pressure off both of us to get through these difficult situations. He doesn't think it will help at all.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">OK he is clearly entitled to his view. My W has the same view. She always knew when I was going, I made a point of saying I was going and she never came. BUT I went and it did me good. In fact it helped no end same as the Steve H contact. I believe that you should do the same. Use it for yourself Lisa not just your M. Tell him you are going and leave it at that.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>I think it concerns me most that he views this separation as about not being married, i.e. although he is adamant it is not about him leading a psuedo single life (he said he will probably spend a lot of time by himself etc., go out occassionally), he also said that with time, he may want to start seeing other people.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">OK diffuse the words here and concentrate on the actions. Words like these get far too heated. He is moving out next week at the moment. He has not physically gone. He is not seeing other people. Try and concentrate on just one thing at a time. In this case I would say the moving out situation. Be the best you can be during this time. Try to Plan A, try not to LB, try to support, let him know you are there.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>I said, is that OK for me then when I go out on Friday if I meet someone, or is it OK to call OM now? Of course I wouldn't, but I wanted to put it into context. I feel this is the slippery downward slope.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">And sadly as Nick suggested your reply whilst understandable doesn't achieve anything other then fire up his angry defences. Hell I've done that one way too much.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>But you know, I don't even know if I can be "nice" and Plan A about this. I don't think I can.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well that's because you have a problem. Plan A is really for the BS to try and be the best they can be so that the WS sees it and the A in time dies. You are not in that situation. Your H is not following the stuff here. He is following the Rollercoaster of Pain that Relate subscribe to, but he is not getting out of the despair, anger, loss, grief cycle. The best you can do right now Lisa is be the best you can be for YOURSELF. You do not nor cannot control how he feels, you can only make it easier for him if he comes to you and wants to work. Right now he does not.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>He's hurting me, he's giving up on us, right before my mum's move and Christmas.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yes the timing could not be worse, but it will be no walk in the park for him either. Remember he has his pain too. And it is very real and hurtful to him, so much so he feels the need to do this. It may be wrong but to a certain extent he probably feels lost and alone. This may giving him time to realise what he wants.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>This isn't about Lisa having a childish fit of pique, this is about me trying to hold myself together.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">And no one was suggesting otherwise. Focus on the future, it will get better, this is a stage, many here have been through it. It will be no walk in the park for him either being alone.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>Am I just angry because he's the one who's made the final decision, that he's letting me down at a difficult time anyway, and that I feel that I've failed?</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Lisa until you have signed a Decree Absolute Nothing is final, and even then that is not final.

Step back and reevaluate where you are. You had an A. You did not expect to feel this way afterwards. It has been devastating for you. Go read Truehearts Letter and SKM Chronicles of the WS. See the time it takes. But stand firm that you are a WS trying in their M. Many BS's here would love their WS to be attempting what you are doing, my own included.

Your H is the BS. He has a strong view of how it should be now, but its not feeling good. He sees ways in which he thinks things will be easier, whether it be having a go at OM, at you or now leaving. None will provide a true resolution. The only thing will be MC and working with you to either start anew or to separate. The choice to do either is still his. You have no control over it.

He will be in Germany this next week. Take the week to look after yourself. Do cycling, do reading, go out with Female company, try and seek something of a happy Lisa. If you work on youself you will be working on your M.

Best Wishes Neil.

Nick/Neil - as ever thanks for your support.

Nick, I feel like there's an angel on one shoulder and the devil on the other, and I'm in the middle being pulled and torn. I want to run, I want to fight, I hate him, I love him. You know....

Neil, I think there are some key points you make. Firstly, I agree totally about the seperation - there is no sense of separation with either reconciliation or parting for good - there is no idea of what he may or may not want to do. I have tried to address this with him, but at the moment it is very much about him.

I think as well, for me, it is hard to be nice/Plan A, because as you say, usually the BS does this to pull round the WS. I have just had to accept his constant verbal abuse and upset. On top of that, I have had a terrible time in withdrawal, and still wonder if that will ever stop feeling so painful. I hate myself for it too, but H has done very little towards working on himself or our M.

"Many BS's here would love their WS to be attempting what you are doing, my own included." I know that, and sometimes I think it is so unfair.

"He sees ways in which he thinks things will be easier, whether it be having a go at OM, at you or now leaving. None will provide a true resolution. The only thing will be MC and working with you to either start anew or to separate. The choice to do either is still his. You have no control over it." And without him agreeing to MC, we will head down the DV route. I agree totally that this was not the right option, but you are right, I cannot change him. The trouble is I feel so beaten up right now I can't even begin to think about starting out with a new MC, spilling my guts to Steve H, if H won't even try.....

Thank you all.

Lisa

P.S. Lots of nice things planned next week.

Lisa,

not had much time this week. Just wanted to say that maybe your H moving out will be positive...

after all he has to decide what he wants. He understands that he can't make that decision when he is seeing you because he just ends up pushing you away and LBing (even if he doesn't know it's called that <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> ). I also know that because he is going to be away so much in Germany it seems a little pointless to you for you to live apart but it may be that he feels that need for seperate space. To be able to see you when he feels up to seeing you without LBing.

As you know my WW and I decided to seperate (her decision not mine) even before her A had become a PA. Would I have agreed if I had know about OM? I can't asnwer that as I wanted to deny my gut feelings and believe her words. But we see each other all the time. I still haven't had time to post about last weekend but one thing that about having our own spaces is that we can both withdraw and spend even a couple of hours recharging and preparing ourselves for the next period of working on our R. If your H is going to be close by you will be able to do this. I know it is hard for you - as it is for me - because we are both more comitted to working on our Ms than our spouses appear to be.

Just give yourself (and your H) time and remember to look after you.

I'll be back next week.

Hi Lisa, I understand what you are saying about being tired and exhausted from trying. This is why you should try and recharge this week and look after yourself. I have had the same problem this week and it is so draining.

Try and have a good time tonight and a good weekend, concentrate on yourself. Neil.

Hello Bowd/Neil

Yes, Bowd, maybe it won't be a bad thing. I'm really tired, and I have spend so much time crying in the last couple of days. If we can communicate well over less time, and start to be kind to ourselves and within that each other, it would help me a lot.

I have just taken H to the airport, and it almost felt like the first time I took him. I cried and cried. I think that we could both do with some space but this is not an ideal situation for me. However, this is about my H and how he feels, and I cannot take his feelings away from him, anymore than he can from me. The fact that he has chosen to be so close by is a positive thing, and I don't think it is something he feels happy about.

Whilst he is in Germany I have asked that he think about what this change in our relationship might mean, how we will communicate/relate. I think I have come through a lot of the anger the last couple of days, and I have told him I will do whatever I can to help him. I don't think at the moment he can even consider how our R might pan out because he feels so wrecked.

Neil, I have a bit of a mad social whirl this week and am busy with work. This weekend I am going to my mum's for the last time. I have made arrangements to meet with a very old, true friend, but all of this will be quite painful for me. I know that I need to take time out for me, and although I feel incredibly sad that H has gone, and will not in essence by coming back home, I feel a sense of relief.

My worry is that with him gone, I will put my wall/barrier back up and just move forward without him. We don't seem to be getting together at the same time much....

I am trying to be kind to H though - he needs it. The problem is I have offered to help him move, pick him up from the airport next week (if I can make arrangements), but this coincides with my mum's move. I also don't know if I could be that decent. I have explained to my mum that I may not be able to make it, she has my sister, her partner and my bro. Even though I am the youngest, my mum relies heavily on me, and I will be letting her down if I stay to help H - although I feel very pressured by her which is not a great thing. Also, I am not sure if this would be too painful for me to help H. Either move that I participate in will be painful for me <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

Am tired, and confused, but at least H and I left things on a relatively positive note.

Thanks for listening and your support.

Lisa

<strong>
My worry is that with him gone, I will put my wall/barrier back up and just move forward without him. We don't seem to be getting together at the same time much....
</strong>
Well, to overcome and work on a problem, you first need to identify it. You have identified it - so it's over to you now to deal with it.

<strong>
The problem is I have offered to help him move, pick him up from the airport next week (if I can make arrangements), but this coincides with my mum's move. I also don't know if I could be that decent.
</strong>
Tricky trade-off of course, but I'd suggest you stick to your man. I mean, that's the future and I'm sure your mum (does she know?) would understand. If your mum really needs help, then get her a few strong-armed packers to shift the gear around.

Insist on a communication plan with WH, not that you just drift away from each other, e.g. pencil in regular dates to go out, talk to each other at least once a day, stuff like that. It shouldn&#8217;t be too forced, of course, but try to put some structure/framework in place so at least both of you have a shared territory where you can meet. OK? Now enjoy the weekend in this lovely London rain.

Good Luck!

N

Thanks Nick

I think I knew the answer about the move, although it will be incredibly hard for me to actually help H move out.

We have talked about how we meet, talk, frequency etc. and has has promised that he will think about that this week. Just spoke to him briefly as he has arrived safely. Feels very sad, different.

Have a good weekend yourself.

Lisa

Lisa, I am sorry your H is resolute on moving out.

I think it's good to structure the separation a bit. I think this is your H's way to seize some power in the relationship. How long is his lease for?

This is such a tough situation. There has been so much damage in the relationship. I am sorry you are hurting, Lisa.

Just to respond to Michael in Dallas:

<strong>I think it is very hard for your H to hear that you and OM had real feelings for each other. Proving that to him does justify the affair, but what does it do to your H and your M? </strong>

I should clarify this. I didn't mean that it justifies the affair literally. I meant that maybe in Lisa's mind it justifies the affair. I was trying to make the point that it doesn't help Lisa's marriage to defend herself to her H that she was justified in having the affair because her feelings for OM were real. If she succeeds in proving that to him, he will just feel more hopeless about their love.

(((Lisa)))

Just to let you know I am thinking of you. I am so sorry that it has come to this, but, as we all learn, the other person is responsible for his own decisions.

I am hoping that he is just going through with this as his way of taking back control of his life for awhile, and...maybe he really does need some time in his cave.

You have done all you can. And I think Nick's advice is spot on - much better than anything I could think up. Like others have said, so many of us BS would give their eye teeth to have a WS who followed through with ending their affair in the way that you did, but even so, you can't control his feelings and he is responsible for the way he has reacted towards you. If he chooses to be unforgiving, that is his problem.

I do think it is important not to lose contact while you are living apart. I also still believe that there is hope for real reconciliation. You have spoken often about your lack of physical attraction for him - usually this happens when communication is lost - and this seems to have been the case with you even before he went to Germany. It doesn't seem like he is listening much to you now, either. So maybe that is part of the heart of your problems - the things that were already there before the A. I think women are attracted to men they feel a connection to, to men they think they can communicate with. If you have major question marks about this with H, then that has a knock-on effect with regards to attraction. I don't much fancy my H right now either. For me, commitment is a big turn-on - and lack of commitment is a big turn-off. If he were to show desire for commitment, I'm pretty sure it would push a button or two, but right now, the boat is idling!

I am thinking of you - hope your visit with old friend helps to give you strength.

Take care,
LIR

Hi Lisa,
I come by your thread almost every day. Even though I care, I often don't know how I could help, so I don't post. Today I wanted to make a few comments...... and tell you what I think of you personally.

As I read to get up to date, I began to think that the reason your H reacts the way he does is because he has no hope it will work. Then I came to this:
I don't think at the moment he can even consider how our R might pan out because he feels so wrecked.
He loves you and he sometimes tries because of that love, but he has no faith, so he never makes real progress.
MC could help give him faith, you could help give him faith ( as discussed before).

I have thought about how to help him see the value of MC but his lack of hope hurts that also. I suspect if he really knew that going to MC would result in a happy M, he would be the first in line.

I have wondered if something along these lines would work:
"H, if you really knew that something could make our marriage work, and that we could be even happier than we were, would you do it?"
I suspect he would say yes if he was in the proper mood.
" Well, there is no way we can know that, but isn't it worth trying everything we possibly can to give us greatest chance for things to work?"

I agree with Nick about helping H. I believe he is looking for you to show your commitment to him, and this is a good one. If you cry, ( I would if it were me helping my W move,) you can say something like "I have very mixed feelings about this, I want to help you, I like being with you, but It makes me so sad to have you move out, I really want you to stay."

What is being said about him wanting to take back some control makes a lot of sense. Perhaps it can turn to good.

LIR has insight into your being attracted to him, It makes good sense. I feel you are getting really good help here. Now if you can just kick the devil off the shoulder for a while and let the angel do some good work.

Think on what you know about H, and what he has said, and see if you can think of some way to give him faith that things can work out someday. I think if he really believed, he would do the work.

BTW, I still see a lot of hope for you, even if it is hard to live with things. It takes a great deal of courage to keep working on a M when you don't know what will happen. The rewards for success will be much greater for you than for some. I think there are also rewards for the effort, no matter the outcome. I would like to see you claim those rewards.

SS

<small>[ November 29, 2002, 04:38 PM: Message edited by: still seeking ]</small>

Dear MB Friends

Thank you all for your comments and support. Espoir, it is an incredibly sad time, but I hope that I will be able to behave in a positive and supportive way. Also, I have never justified the A, either verbally or in my mind - I know you were not saying that, merely making a suggestion. I can only say again that nothing will ever justify what I did.

LIR - thanks for the hug - do I ever need it now. I always thought that H and I communicated very well. He is actually very insightful, as his C said to him last week - he is thoughtful and relatively sensitive. Perhaps communication between the two of us has just been poor more recently. At times, I felt he did not listen to me when he was away. Sadly though, our physical relationship goes beyond that, and it is something I am trying to address.

SS - Whether you post to me or not, I am always glad to know you are out there. You so often say such key things and I appreciate hearing from you.

"Think on what you know about H, and what he has said, and see if you can think of some way to give him faith that things can work out someday. I think if he really believed, he would do the work. "

This was one of those crucial things!!! You are right, everything I suggest to him, he turns down because I do not think he really has faith that things will work out one day. Whilst I think the same, I know that I want to at least try everything to know that we have given it our best shot. I think coupled with that he is so incredibly sad and confused, he cannot bear the thought of the constant rows and upset. Mind you neither can I. I keep trying with the MC, but he is adamant that it cannot help us at this time. He is actually a strong believer in C so I find this quite hard to get round. I feel that given my situation at the moment, I cannot even contemplate a change of C, but will look towards Relate for the new year, and perhaps use Neil's suggestion - I've booked it, I'm going, please come if you can.

Today has been incredibly painful for me. On Saturday I went to my Mum's to help her with her packing ready for her move this weekend. I have decided to help H as Mum has sis, bro, etc. and I feel that if I just came back and H was "gone" it would be more difficult than helping him.

Mum is in a terrible state - they still haven't exchanged contracts although they are due to move on Friday. I did lots of jobs, sorting rooms, throwing rubbish, taking clothes/books to the charity shop etc. I then had to say goodbye to my family home to travel back to London <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" />

On the positive side, I meet on Saturday night with my old old friend, and yes LIR, it was great just to see her and talk without fear of reprimand, but only love and support.

On top of all this, H and I had a row on the telephone on Saturday. Accidentally I opened a piece of his post and saw information inside he did not want me to know. He was really angry and virtually accussed me of snooping, but it was a genuine error.

This past weekend and the coming week, is so difficult and hard. I hate myself and everything that's happened, because at the end of the day a lot of it I caused. I find it difficult to get support from H because of the Mum move, and am just becoming increasingly sad that he too will be leaving me at the weekend. I value and appreciate the support and insight here.

So, that's all for now, thank you all for looking in.

Lisa

Last night I went to IC - I nearly didn't go because I felt so very tired. It was more of a "dump everything" session than terribly productive.

I couldn't even face talking to H last night, because I didn't want to hear that he has told him mum and XYZ - I wasn't rude or curt, just said, that I was incredibly tired and couldn't talk for long. Funny, he used to do that to me sometimes, I wonder how it felt for him. I thought I should ring him this morning, but don't know what to say. What is there left to say?

This whole mess and situation is just getting me down - what else can I do when H wants to distance himself from me? Shouldn't I just respect that decision and leave him to get on?

Having a bit of a vent this morning, but am struggling again today.

Lisa

Double post

<small>[ December 03, 2002, 04:48 AM: Message edited by: Lisa in London ]</small>

I cannot even contemplate a change of C, but will look towards Relate for the new year, and perhaps use Neil's suggestion - I've booked it, I'm going, please come if you can.

Right now Lisa apart from looking after yourself I think this is all you can do. Relate will help you, rather than the both of you. Right now that is probably what you really need.

I am not aware of ever acting like your H, I wanted my Wife back and her to love me, but I do understand his turmoil and lose. If you go to Relate you can ask for a copy of their loss rollercoaster. Leave it around the house. That is what he is stuck in.

Oh and Dumping Sessions are good. Because the IC gets it not your H where it would have caused major probs.

Best Wishes Neil.