Too long,
In a certain way I am hesitant to respond to what you wrote for fear of being cruel. Or seeming that way.

I can't say what your wife had with the OP. Defining love as you do I honestly can't imagine the pain you must have felt at d-day. I am very sorry for your pain.

As far as my relationship. It is entirely true that I was a total mess when I met MM. A few months into our relationship I began the process of recovery. 2 years into our relationship I was completely clean and sober. I stayed because I loved him. We went through a lot together. We fought to keep our relationship together under what seemed like impossible circumstances. And for many years we did.

In the end we were both worn out. It wasn't even about him leaving his wife. I liked things the way they were.

It must be hard for BS's to feel like maybe their spouse loved another. I don't know that all WS love the other person. I can only speak of my situation. For us, it was love the only way we knew love to be.

NS,

I have a few thoughts on your question. I do think that when people have an affair, there is love, unless it is a ONS. I think what is being said to you is that the context in which this "love" exists is artificial and so is the decision making process.

NS, as you pointed out your H was meeting your needs but when you started up with OM, it "seemed" he wasn't. THat is part of the fog. Rewriting history to justify you A is also part of the fog.

The reason only 5% or less of affairs lead to marriages that survive is that the whole decision making process is flawed. The "feeling" of love is definitely there, but the reality of the situation is not properly evaluated.

So you feel you ARE in love with OM still? You feel he is the one? Then why don't you leave your H and go with OM? As you say the affair is over, you are apparently not "IN LOVE" with your H. The correct thing to do is divorce your H and go to this man.

I know and so do you. You are still hiding your guilt in the feelings for the OM. You know if you make a list of strengths and weaknesses for both men, your H will win. First, failure on your OM list is his lack of honesty and ability to seriously harm his friend and comrade in arms. He is already divorced and there were reasons, one is clear, he doesn't value the sanctity of marriage.

I think you really need to stop and think. You owe your H honesty and before you can do that you must be honest with yourself. I know you are trying and I know that it will be another 3 -6 months before many of your feelings go away. You also now know why Harley really pushes no contact.

NS, you are harboring unrealistic feelings and you are using them as an escape place when you feel bad or uncertain. What if...?

I think you are probably going through a bit of a midlife crisis, in your early 30's and are failing to see what you do have vs. what you don't have.

Just for your information I think that Katie Scarlet's post is very useful to you. What she is saying is that she had nothing invested in the relationship although she derived alot of good out of it. But, as her life got together, she moved on. I think your behavior and OM's behavior can be seen in the context of her statements.

He has nothing to lose. It is a fling to him. Once he has gotten what he wants out of it he can move on. He isn't committed. You are.

Just as KS's MM's was left to deal with the situation with MM, so will you be. THe question is are you going to make the best of it and really work on your marriage or are you going to be like her MM and still hang on, ruining your life and your H's. KS is moved on, and so will your OM.

Please reread what she is saying.

Must go.

God Bless,

JL

PS: I must admit I have a hard time with your posts. The reason is that I strongly feel that your OM should be thrown out of the military. There is no place for a man of his moral caliber in life or death situations. He cannot be trusted to do anything but take care of himself. I strongly feel your H should indeed report him and have him removed and I feel your H is failing in his duty by not doing this.

So please understand that don't post more to you because I don't want my very strong feelings in this matter to influence my advice. I just felt compelled to post here because of your set back into withdrawal by seeing OM. You will get over this, but the real issue is will you keep looking for reasons to keep thinking about OM.

Somebody special you never got a chance to experience the reality of living with OM so you still have fond memories of the way he made you feel when you were in the A. BUT FWS that did get a chance to live with the OP started to see the real person they got involved with and questioned whether it was love they truly felt for this person or just good feelings because their egos go stroked by the attention. As soon as the OP got what s/he wanted, the attention went away and the FWS realized that the OP never truly loved her/him.

True love in my opinion is what you and your H have done. Despite the hurt you both experienced, you decided that you cared very much for one another and did not want to lose each other. Sure it's nice to have one's ego stroked because it brings feelings of joy and gratitude towards the person that brought them to us, but it isn't true love.

I think it still goes back to the fact that true love cannot be built upon a foundation of lies and dishonesty. It's FOG.

Now, maybe you weren't totally honest with your spouse when you got married, i.e. married for wrong reasons or were in some type of addicted state - drugs, alcohol, when you got married. So maybe for you, that love wasn't based on honesty and faith but for your spouse it was.
Does this even make sense?

Katie:

I don't feel like you're being cruel at all. No, I believe that we're all trying 2 figure things out. That's what this life is about. That's EVEN what As are about.

I was going 2 quote something profound from Greg Baer's book, but I can't find it. Suffice it 2 say that Baer considers the "in love" feeling, even between a single man and a woman that are dating and even2ally wind up Md, as "immitation love." It's infa2ation. We're "in love" because our partner makes us feel good, pure and simple. Sure, there are elements of Real Love involved, but there'd better be some other selfless acts/thoughts/feelings between them when the infa2ation wears off or the need that's being met is no longer a need, because the R is over at that point if there's not.

For2nately, M'd couples can learn 2 cultivate Real love in their M, because their R wasn't built on lies and deciet. Affairees don't have that benefit 2 start with, and since Real love REQUIRES radical honesty, it's vir2ally impossible for that kind of R 2 survive.

That's all I'm trying 2 say.

just learning I so appreciate your input. I do at times get very confused <img border="0" title="" alt="[Embarrassed]" src="images/icons/blush.gif" /> about what feelings I have about OM .

I printed off that list someone link to earlier and I read it often thru out the day. Sometimes it takes someone like you JL,to read me the truth so that I can see it clearly for myself.

Oh god how I do love my husband !!! I want more then anything to forget what ever happened.

So any advise on how to push the OM out of my head when I think about him?

Last night I did tell H that I was feeling like withdrawl again , and that I needed his help . I needed him to fill me with lots of ENs and been my guiding light. He was of course very hurt, but said he would do his best.

JL i have talked to h about charges and he is not open to that. I do want him to do it, but I think it would make it too real to have to deal with it face to face with OM. Much easier for him to go on with life if he can pretend it didn't happen with his freind.I think he is afraid if he opens it up, he won't stop and would do something he would regret. I am not joking as you must know that he would kill OM if he could.

I am feeling much better now, after your posts. Sometimes a person gets so wrapped up in the FOG.

I think this all depends on your definition of love. Some people consider "love" to be that giddy, butterflies in the stomach feeling and are convinced that they are madly "in love" after 2 dates. I have a good friend like that. 3 dates and she's planning the wedding and reading "he wants a lifetime commitment" into everything the guy says.
When I was younger I can clearly remember thinking "I am sooo in love..." and then 6 months later, as we started to really get to know each other, thinking "Yuck, what was I thinking? How do I get out of this?"
Now that I am older and wiser I realize that REAL love takes a long time to develop. Long after the early relationship where both parties are putting their best foor forward. After the butterflies have died down and you've had time to really get to know each other on an every day basis when it's not all hearts and flowers.
Some people never realize that. You'l find plenty of 40 year old people (especially women) still yammering on about how "the love we shared was real" even though the realtionship only lasted 6 weeks. And some people are serial monogamists, who think that the only real love is that beginning stage. When that changes, as it always does, it's biological programming, thy decide that it's time to move on. My sister's exH was like that. She realized too late that every 2-3 years he found a new "soulmate" whe he burned with desire for and couldn't live without. And each time he had "never felt like this before". Then when things settled into a more comfortable, attachment type love he moved on. He was on his third marriage by age 34 (my sister was number 2).
To quote Dr. Phil when he was discussing infidelity "People forget that there is a difference between falling in love and being in love." Any new realtionship between people who are attracted to each other produces powerful feelings, brought on by brain chemicals. it's an actual chemical high. And those chemicals really don't care if the people are compatible lifemates or not.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>"Oh god how I do love my husband !!! I want more then anything to forget what ever happened.

So any advise on how to push the OM out of my head when I think about him?"</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">NEVER, EVER forget because like the old saying goes 'those that forget the lessons of history are condemed to repeat them'. Despite the pain and suffering that your A brought to you and your H, it taught you valuable lessons. You now know that dangers exist that can destroy your M if you and your H are not on the look out for them. BOTH you and your H are better persons because you are now more knowledgeable. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that you should feel great that you had an A, but grateful that you are now better able to protect your love and your M.

As far as how to get OM out of your mind is concerned, if I were to tell you right now NOT to think of a pink elephant, what are you going to do? The answer, of course, is a mental image of a pink elephant. The same thing with your OM, the more you try to put him out of your head the more he will be there. Cut yourself some slack and realize that your thoughts of OM are only natural and that with time they'll become less and less present.

From my point of view, you and your H are inspiration to me.

2long,

To be sure that I understand you, are you saying that "real love" can only exist in the context of marriage?

Sure MM made me feel good. But the relationship was also hell. Sometimes long term hell. Sometimes not.

It's interesting to me that all of your definations fit love as you define love. It is not possible that there are definations of love beyond what you've carved out as love?

Personally I think that there are all kinds of love. It's not my job do define or limit it for others. I thinnk you'll know it when you feel it nad only looking back can you say "yep-that was it."

There is no question for me that MM and I had real and lasting love. 10 years of it. Unforgettable. WE're done now and that is as it should be. I, however, cannot bring myself to regret it.

The time I spent with him was wonderful, amazing, awful, hellish, boring, dramatic, real, surreal, painful and a whole lot more. Looking back, I wouldn't change a thing.

Unfortunately we won't be able to come with a universal definition of Love that will satisfy everybody.

This is somewhat akin to what is true barbeque, Texas or Kansas City? All this talk about food is making me hungry, sorry folks I gotta go stuff my face <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Katie Scarlett:
<strong>2long,

It's interesting to me that all of your definations fit love as you define love. It is not possible that there are definations of love beyond what you've carved out as love?

</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Not 2long, but I think we can all only go with our definition of love. For me real love is something that takes a long time to evolve. It is what remains, or often doesn't, after the brain chemicals and the excitement of a new romance fade and the relationship enters the attachment phase. Other people might insist that a one night stand is "love". Or like my friend, 3 dates and it's time to start looking at wedding dresses. You should hear her "He asked me out for Saturday night, that's 3 days from now. I know he wouldn't make plans that far in advance if he wasn't serious about us."
And just because one person of the pair will insists that it was "real love" doesn't mean that the other person agrees. I found out from a mutual friend that a guy I dated will still occasionally tell people that he and I had a "special connection" and that if it weren't for bad timing we definitely would have ended up married. The reality is that I knew I'd made a terrible mistake about 2 months into the relationship and I spent another 2 month frantically trying to look for the easiest way out (which I didn't find). When I finally got the guts to just break it off I was extremely relived and never looked back.

Katie:

"To be sure that I understand you, are you saying that "real love" can only exist in the context of marriage?"

Not at all. We have "relationships" with everybody we interact with. Some of these are intimate, and some of the intimacy is parental (like we love our kids). I love my best friends, male and female. I guess I would say, though, that real love SHOULD exist in the context of M, or the M needs work.

"Sure MM made me feel good. But the relationship was also hell. Sometimes long term hell. Sometimes not."

My W has said this about her A, 2 (and yes, she prefers 2 call it a R, and not use "loaded words" like A, but it IS an A as well as a R).

"It's interesting to me that all of your definations fit love as you define love."

Not my definitions. Greg Baer's (and others'). I just LIKE them the best. They make the most sense 2 me.

"It is not possible that there are definations of love beyond what you've carved out as love?"

Yep.

"Personally I think that there are all kinds of love. It's not my job do define or limit it for others. I thinnk you'll know it when you feel it nad only looking back can you say "yep-that was it.""

And how will you tell the difference between the self-induced chemical high that goes with infa2ation, and "it"?

"There is no question for me that MM and I had real and lasting love. 10 years of it. Unforgettable. WE're done now and that is as it should be. I, however, cannot bring myself to regret it."

It's possible that my W won't be able 2 bring herself 2 regret her A, either. I don't know how I'll deal with that, if the time comes. I don't believe that it's possible 2 truly love more than one person in this way at one time. Mainly because at least ONE of us was being deceived the entire time. My W's affections were divided, plain and simple, and I was unaware just WHY our M was "mediocre". My W may believe she was loving me during that time, but she wasn't being honest, that wasn't fair, and it certainly wasn't loving.

"The time I spent with him was wonderful, amazing, awful, hellish, boring, dramatic, real, surreal, painful and a whole lot more. Looking back, I wouldn't change a thing. "

Looking back, if I knew what I know now, I would NOT have M'd my W. PARTICULARLY if she feels the way you do about your A. And I love the family we have now.

I wrote this in another thread but I think it fits in here as well:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> ...But as real as they are, these feelings are built on lies, deception and anger. Yes, I believe that he does care for you but there is no true love. True love is honest and patient. By him pursuing you, he has destroyed all the true love he ever had for you. True love waits and does not push for destruction of a marriage, which will inflict enormous pain on not only you and me, but our families and friends. True love is simply that, true. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">out...

Thank you for finding that, Luki!

Well put Luki!! There are many valid points made on the idea of love here. I believe in my W's case, she did feel real love for her OM's. And like in your case Somebody Special, OM#1 was a good friend of mine also. And yes, if I ever came face to face with him again, it would most likely get violent. I cannot deny the feelings my W had for these OM. To do so would be to try and negate the lessons we learned through our pain. They were meeting her EN's and I was not, it was as simple as that.

As for the thoughts of true love, I think everyone has their own ideas of what true love is. What my W had for her OM's was a kind of high-school, puppy dog type of infatuation. None-the-less, it was love. What her and I had before her (and my) A's, and what we have now, is a mature lasting love. Wrought in fire, strengthened by pain, and made lasting by sacrifice on both of our parts. As for the comments on unconditional love, I don't personally believe such a thing exists, but that's another thread all-together. JMVHO.

Special,

At the end of my two year long affair I found this overwhelming need to try to categorize what I felt for the OM and what he felt for me. Was it really love something that neither one of us could control? Or was it all a lie?

Really there are no correct answers. Your perceptions of how you felt for the OM are your reality. I think it is possible to care for, or love, two people at the same time. Much in the same way you may care for two children, cherishing the differences between them. The only problem is with children you are expected to love them equally while with members of the opposite sex you are tied to only one with the promise to forsake all others. Thus the feelings that you had for the OM should have never happened, neither of you should have ever put yourselves in the position of having love for the other.

In my case I finally accepted that I did have some feelings of love for the OM. I also accept that it was wrong, unhealthy, and should have never happened. Because of my actions I destroyed a friendship with somebody I deeply cared about. Someone told me at the end of my affair that if I had really wanted to be married to this man, or he wanted me, we would have found a way to be together our marriages be damned. This person was right on the mark, no matter what feelings we may or may not have had for each other it wasn’t enough for us to want to destroy the lives we had. You know that to be true in your case, your husband is the wise choice, you love him, and your heart tells you that. So accept that you did care for the OM but that your H is the man for you. There’s probably no other way to categorize it.

I'm going 2 have 2 bow out of this convo for now. It just hurts 2 much.

BYE!

I can only speak for myself, but this is how it went down with me:

If you would have held a gun to my head and said "admit it, what you're feeling about OW is only a fantasy"...I couldn't have said it, the feeling of being "in love" was that real to me.

I am a recovering alcoholic/addict, sober 14 yrs in AA. Step 2 of our program states, "Came to believe that a power greater than ourselves could restore us to sanity." This was my constant thought as I went through the FOG. I experienced myself as being totally insane. I was conscious of it. Soon after I disclosed the A to my wife, my AA sponsor and I were discussing it on the basis that it was a fantasy, not real. And I was nodding my head, saying, "you're right, you're right." But it didn't matter what I said, or what tiny part of my rational mind could grasp this truth, I was "in love" with this OW and couldn't get her or "our love" out of my mind. Or the idea that I needed to leave my marriage because it wasn't my wife I was "in love" with, it was this OW. And this "love" was so real that I was willing to break up my family to go get it.

All I can say is that having experienced the insanity of alcoholism and addiction, my A was an absolute freakin addiction - and my relationship with this fantasy "love" was as powerful as my relationship with alcohol and drugs when I used them to escape my reality. And I was willing to do anything: leave my wife, my 2 small children, alienate myself from all our friends, drain our savings account to get my own apartment that we couldn't afford so I could be with my "love" (sound familiar.) But knowing this, and I mostly knew it, offered no defense against the fantasy of love that I felt.

For me it stopped in a MC session where we confronted this "how can I stay in this marriage when I'm in love with the OW" idea. This was 6 wks after D-day. I can't tell you why hearing it that day (that it was a fantasy I was "in love" with, and not the OW) instead of all the other times I heard it and said it, snapped me out of it. I guess after 6 wks of misery, constant thoughts of leaving, drinking again, suicide, I was ready to give it up. But since that moment in that MC's office, it has not returned. I was restored to sanity. I saw the truth, and the truth set me free.

hammlet

I'm sure in the midst of a relationship like that, it sure seems like love. And perhaps even looking back on it, you can't help but to believe it was 'love'.

You often hear the phrase "I love my spouse, but am IN love with the OP". Both are conflicting statements. Genuine love has more to do with one's actions, not feelings.Love has the best interest of other people in mind. So to say you still love your spouse, while getting entangled with another person, really cannot be true.

And to become involved with another person, regardless of how strong the 'feelings' may be, is not in that other persons best interest, so to suggest you love them as well while allowing them to become entangled with you, would not seem to ring true either.

What I want to know is: are single people who 'fall in love' and march down an aisle and make some pretty incredible promises (vows) to each other...are they not in a 'fog'? *smile*

The older I get, and the more young people I see jump into marriages, the more I am convinced that the majority of them have no clue as to what they are embarking on. All they know, is that they are 'in love' and promise to 'love' each other and be with each other for better or for worse, in sickness and in health, for richer or poorer...etc.... until 'death do them part'. Now tell me that is not a fog. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

well, i would have to agree w/you that most people probably are in a "fog" when they get married but i think it's a different fog. afterall they aren't married to someone else and having an A when they get M.

I've read this entire thread and some other things i would like to input is what do you (the BS) do when you "know" the A isn't built on lies or secrecy? The OW in my case is a 20 yr who still lives at home w/her parents. i spoke to her mom last night in person (i thought i would be exposing the A) but they already knew about the A and apparently my H has not tried to hide the A from anyone. this is due to the fact that i have been living in another state since last october (not because of this).

so i feel like their R is pretty strong because there weren't lies between them or w/other people (his friends, etc.). for the first time today he told me that he loved her. I know a lot of what he says is "fog" talk but he has clearly acknowledged the consequences of what is happening. he knows he's hurting me, he know's that he doesn't have much to stand on (i'm supporting us finacially for the most part) that he's only a waiter, that he's pretty much failing 2 classes in college, and that it might not work out w/the OP. But he says he just has to try.

i asked him in a very MB manner what made him think that she wouldn't cheat on him? he then asked me what makes you think she would? i said because years ago we both didn't think we would do certain things and look where we are. he said that anything i do is not going to make him come back to me and that if i really loved him, i would let him go and let him be happy.

i asked who's feelings were more real, his feelings that he can't go back or mine that i can't give up on my M. he's really afraid that i'm going to hurt her (send threatening letters, phone calls, confrontations, etc.) and i can truly understand this feeling based on some of my past behavior but i'm not that person anymore. i promised him i'm not going to physically hurt anyone but i am going to fight for my M and maybe that's not to do anything. but he kept bringing it up about me doing something to her, i asked (in a good MB way) what could i say or do that would prove to him that i wasn't going to do anything malicious or mean, and he said just promise him i wasn't going to. I said i already did.

this is all still new to me, we just had this above conversation less than an hour ago. he says he really sees the changes in me that i'm the woman he first married and even says that it's probably one of the reasons why he feels the way he does about her is because she reminds me of how i used to be. but when i say that i'm going to fight for our marriage that he sees the old me coming out and feels manipulated. that anything i do is not going to make him come back and if this continues any longer he's going to have a nervous breakdown or go insane.

well that's my experience. i don't doubt that he feels he loves her but i keep thinking (i've told him this as well) that he felt that way about me once and look where we are.