<BR>Hi All,<P>I'm having a difficult time with the fact that I have realized so much about infidelity and communication, etc. and not being able to come out and tell H what we need to do!!<P>I've been putting what I have learned into practice - trying to be especially careful of wording in order to avoid lovebusting.<P>One minute I think H is actually thinking about things with us and the next it's a if we haven't gotten anywhere.<P>I guess my questions have to do with how much am I supposed to explain about our vulnerabilities within the marriage and within ourselves? <P>Do you think that he realizes anything about his part in things? Or is it still a defense situation?<P>I know that none of you have any idea what he (specifically) is thinking.......on a whole though, is this something that men will ponder over? Or will the focus more on the here and now?<P>Would they be inclined to move forward if they do not think that old issues can be resolved? Or is that what will stop them and no thought is given to what they can do or what new possibilities of problem solving can be discovered?<P>I ask all of this because I think that H does not completely want to let go - yet will not go back to what we have become the last few years......His thinking does not include working on changing (except for me of course!!) mainly because I don't think he knows how and is too lazy to learn (not necessarily on purpose - more of a let life flow ideaology).<P>I want to be able to tell him what is needed but can not do that without him taking offense to anything about him......<P>Another big problem is the spending of so much time and energy thinking and worrying about all the things wrong. Isn't it better to just be honest about each other's roles and what direction we each need to take so that we can get out of this garbage and get on with our lives and enjoying each other?<P>Isn't that something he would want?<P>How do you break the stalemate?<P>I'm getting nowhere with all this pussyfooting around.<BR> <BR>Any insight would be welcome and helpful......<P>Hugs,<P>Sheba<P>PS - Men - How wrong is it of me to be speculating that he doesn't know half of the things that I do about this situation and how to fix it? Is it a correct supposition because of the male/female mindset differences or is it arrogance on my part?<BR>

I sure don't know.<P>My gut feeling is most men want to figure stuff out for themselves. Don't like things explained...too much like asking for directions. That doesn't mean it is true in every case.<P>My own personal opinion that in your case, your H may respond more to a "rules" girl approach where he feels like he is winning you over.<P>But who knows?<P>------------------<BR>Faith, Hope, Love Remain,<BR>but the greatest of these is Love.<BR>1 Corinthians 13:13

Benn there twin!<BR>My H could thing about all the things I had done wrong, and later on could even think on how I could change them. But it took him a while longer to remember his own faults. I guess because he was so focused on what he was feeling was wrong on my part. What he was feeling was obviously in his mind first. What I could be feeling was a bit lower on the list, so he only got there after going trough the other items on his list.<BR>That ties up with the other thing worrying you. WHile he was still focusing on his hurt , and spending his energy in the pain and anger that came with it, he could not have much left to see how things could be fixed.<BR>Sometimes, when we're too focused on something, being miserable just seems natural, we forget to look for ways to feel better.<P>I' not sure I rememebr what I did to help tis situation. I ceratinly avoided pointing out his own faults, and tried to arrange situations that would show them to him without me having to say so. This way he was the one realizing it by himself, and he could deal with that better than having me saying it.<BR>I'll think back and post again when I rememeber more about that time. ( I kind of filed it already )<BR>big hug<BR>Kat<P>------------------<BR>Each and everyone of us is deserving of a kind word, a gentle thought, and the gift of understanding.

Hi Fhl -<P>I've thought of that approach as well. <P>the only problem with that is I have been very loving and caring - have not wavered through any of this in that respect. Although I have tried to set "boundaries" of what I will accept or not accept it is still an overall aura of love that he receives from me.<P>Is that wrong then? Should I change that atmosphere?<P>If I do what does that say about my course through all of this.<P>That would be what I would have to do if he is to think he must win me over, no?<P>Why would he need to do that?<P>I just have never been good at what I consider to be games when you have to think on every move or statement.<P>Gosh, I just want Honesty and Openness!!!!

I like Kat1's answer better. Kind of down and stressed for absolutely no reason today. <P>------------------<BR>Faith, Hope, Love Remain,<BR>but the greatest of these is Love.<BR>1 Corinthians 13:13

Thanks Kat -<P>Try to think of how you did it because I have to admit that i have run out of ideas at the moment.<P>Nothing about himself is hitting him in the face that I have seen or that he verbalizes.<P>I just think that this is so stupid to be wasting this time........<P>FHL - What's the matter, why down?<BR>You're answer was good and I think could very well be valid - only problem is that it fits with my H sometimes but not others!! Maybe because of the Jekyll/Hyde factor?<P>Hugs,<P>Sheba<BR><p>[This message has been edited by Sheba (edited September 13, 1999).]

Yes, I'm with you for honesty and openness and I am no game player.<P>Human nature, as it is though, should be taken into account.<P>Can you be both loving and elusive?<P>I mean, if he did start coming around, you wouldn't want to put your neck on the chopping block right away, would you?<P>Never had to do this, but sometimes I think I was way too easy on H. Not that I should have punished him, but maybe it would been kind of nice for both of us if he would have purued me in recovery instead of me being wonder woman.<P>------------------<BR>Faith, Hope, Love Remain,<BR>but the greatest of these is Love.<BR>1 Corinthians 13:13

Really, nothing wrong. <P>[This message has been edited by Faith Hope Love (edited September 13, 1999).]<p>[This message has been edited by Faith Hope Love (edited September 13, 1999).]

Psst.....Got it!!<P>I don't know if I would be able to do that very well or not - be elusive.....<P>I have never been like that - you can read my emotions in my face and my heart on my sleeve!!!!<P>H knows by looking at me what I am feeling and a lot of times what is bothering me.<P>Just how I am I guess!!! I've never played at anything.<P>I might need lessons and then would probably get a "D" for my grade!!!<P>I think the only elusiveness H has gotten from me is when he saw that there was no room for discussion in his keeping my life in hell while he kept on with what he was doing. <P>I guess it was determination he saw in my face <p>[This message has been edited by Sheba (edited September 13, 1999).]

Hi Sheba, I dont know if I can help but see if this fits. Just a guess on my part but suppose your H really does know how bad he has screwed up. It is possible that he just can't admit HE is responsible. We guys are a different breed. Right now I would guess he's in denial and as unreal as that is he's insulated from taking responsibility. The longer this goes on the greater the cost of coming clean w the facts. Remember the comparrison to addiction? A chemically dependant person will loose everything sometimes b4 accepting they're out of control. I REALLY hope that your H does'nt have to loose you b4 he lets go of his pride and accepts his part in restoring your marriage. When the reality of the hurt done sets in his pain will be devastating. He will have to confront his arrogance and what he didnt do to protect you from it. <BR> How to snap him out of it? I think he may have to be hit over the head to shake him out of this indecision. You know where he lives, where his heart is. I may be all wrong but try reminding him of the committment he made. If he's like me he won't want to admit he's not a man of his word so to speak. Try to bring out the kid in him, take him to a wrestling match. See if he'll go hang gliding, or something spontaneous and fun. <BR> Maybe you can get him to read some of the posts from guys like me who have wonderfull wives they take for granted, and live to regret it. Hang in there Sheba He must be a pretty good guy or you would'nt have picked him. Be good to YOU, you deserve it!

Hi Sheba! (a.k.a warrior princess ),<P>I can honestly say I know how you feel in many regards. Dang, with the amount of hours I've spent reading books on infidelity and hanging out here, I feel like I have a master's degree in recovery techniques. The only problem is I have only me to use it on. The W won't read anything. She certainly doesn't want to talk about it (everything has been said in her mind). And so, here we sit full of love and compassion and methods to help get us through and they don't want to take that journey with us. I feel like I hit the lottery on how to be a great H and she isn't ready. <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Men - How wrong is it of me to be speculating that he doesn't know half of the things that I do about this situation and how to fix it? Is it a correct supposition because of the male/female mindset differences or is it arrogance on my part?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>It's arrogance on your part - sheesh don't youladies know how smart us guys are!!!! --- JUST KIDDING . Joking a side, I think most commonly it is the betrayed that puts out the energy into saving the marriage. Hence, we read all the books, surf the web, and find forums like this to make sense out of chaos. So, I don't think it is a male/female thing. I don't thing my W knows half what I do about recovering - how could she? She is reading or asking folks like I am. <P>Now, back to your question on how to fix this. Well, I haven't I got the slightest idea. I look for the smallest signs of coming back to the relationship. This weekend the W and I had an argument; the first real argument in 9 months. In the past, I would have backed off to avoid any love busting but I felt she was being totally unfair with me and I wasn't going to let her walk all over me again. We had a heated exchange and were able to resolve the conflict. We weren't able to do that before. A little more progress maybe?The point is that I look for progress in her feelings toward me. Preaching marriage building to our spouses is equivilent to spitting in the wind. <P>I'm sure he realizes some of his part in this. I know he's a fool for not running back to you that's for sure. You just have to start over again. Worse, you have to start over at a disadvantage. You work at being friends. You reach out in litle ways to show you want more intimacy and see if they bite. If they do, then keep trying for more. <P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Another big problem is the spending of so much time and energy thinking and worrying about all the things wrong. Isn't it better to just be honest about each other's roles and what direction we each need to take so that we can get out of this garbage and get on with our lives and enjoying each other?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>AMEN!!! For the most part, I think it's us worrying more than them. We (the betrayed) tend to think the worst (and why not after what happened) about things. We're screwed up and we need to figure how to get ourselves through a lot of this junk. <P>Like your H, my W isn't willing to change either. She has changed over the years. Some I like, some I don't. I think part of it is us trying to adapt to one another again. We grew a part Sheba, and trying to put all this back together takes a long time. I want all the same things you do. Hopefully, we will get there. It just may be different than how we are picturing it. <P>Am I making any sense? <P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Isn't that something he would want?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>I hope so. It's something I want.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>How do you break the stalemate?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Ahhh, the holy grail. If you find it let me know, OK?<P>Your buddy,<P>SHA

Sheba-<BR>I'm pretty frustrated also. I'm at the end of my rope and found Dr. Harley's article on Why Women Leave Men. I've decided to give that to him because it amazingly describes how I feel and have felt for a long time. I'm doing this for three reasons 1)because I don't know how much more of this I can take 2)it describes my feeling accurately 3)it introduces MB to him. He is not interested in my thoughts or feelings about our issues, so perhaps from this "general" standpoint, he can see what I'm feeling w/o taking it personal. He is also not interesting in counseling, techniques, tools, etc. Perhaps this will help him not be "intimidated" by seeking help. But most importantly, I feel like this is my last ditch effort at trying to make a go of this. I am mentally and emotionally ready to back up my decision to leave, should it come to that. I don't want my marriage to end, but it certainly cannot continue as is.<P>PS. I also have all of the MB stuff printed out and ready should he decide to work through it. Won't dump it on him just yet. Information overload! That would run him away to Siberia!

hi everybody,<P>Am in the middle of cooking on the grill and just had a thought.<BR> <BR>I was feeling bad that maybe being elusive, mysterious, etc. is what H (or a lot of men, for all I know!!) wants!!<P>I was thinking that I just can't cut it in that department and am probably doomed.......Then I remembered one of the first compliments (or so I thought!) from my H was that he loved the fact that I was so open and actually didn't need to have pretenses.<P>perhaps this whole affair stuff is because he wanted some pretenses because of the realities of our lives and the problems we were faced with....<P>These women and the one (OW) gave him a good game to play. <P>Perhaps I am better off with the openness because if he tired of the games before he met me and was fine with me before the life stuff, then when he gets tired of the games again perhaps the openness will be refreshing once more!!!!<P>Does this make sense?<P>Only problem is how do I get the problems rectified that need to be? When he is ready for the openness there will still be the baggage!!!!<P>OOOOhhhh - my steak is burning!!!!<P>Thoughts?<P>

sheba<BR>Right now you can only do what you can do. I like your idea in that last post. Keep being honest.<BR>one thing I did was write a list for my H of what I knew I did wrong in our marriage.<BR>I'm not sure if he thinks he's ever done anything wrong besides sleep with the bimbo. But it did help him to know that I acknowledged my mistakes and that I meant to rectify them.<BR>His part? Maybe some day if I wait long enough.

Working on a couple of things to add here - <P>I'm going over Izzy's thread again and trying to see what I can muster.<P>Just didn't want you (Pablo, SHA, Enlightened and WS) to think I forgot about you!!!!<P>I'll get back here tomorrow......<P>Anybody else with thoughts?<P>Hugs,<P>Sheba

Still mulling this over (still mentally limited, you know).<P>I have been told by more than one person that I am the most "honest" person they know. I am always nice...can't seem to help myself...and I avoid conflict when I can...but I also can not tell a lie. So if someone asks my honest opinion, I give it, even when I know it not what they want to hear. Speak the truth in love, like the bible says.<P>Ironically I have been sought out, especially by my employers for either my honest definition of a problem or my opinion of what needed to happen, specifically because I am known for no agendas or grudges, but complete honesty. Sometimes I get myself in quite a pickle over it. Sometimes I am kept out of the loop by peers because I refuse to engage in gossip or condemnation. Honesty is not always appreciated, but I do believe it is respected.<P>So Sheeba, I understand, and I was wrong to suggest that you should do otherwise when it is so much a part of you.<P>However, the problem is your H is not at a point where he is honest enough with himself to take your goodness and honesty.<P>When people are playing by different rules, us honest people are sometimes at a loss. We get run over, side stepped or tricked with nothing but our integrity left. Now that's no small thing in the longterm, but in the short term squirmishes, it can be one big pain.<P>What do you think?<P>------------------<BR>Faith, Hope, Love Remain,<BR>but the greatest of these is Love.<BR>1 Corinthians 13:13

FHL, if it matters at all, I want you to know that I value your honesty as well. I have been on this board and your answers have always been straight forward, truthful, and insiteful. I think though that Kat1 did hit the nail on the head. Sometimes we get so wrapped up in how to solve the problem and how we want to fix the other person that we aren't willing to suggest that any of our own personal attributes set the stage for these problems, I should know........... Anyhow, wanted you to know that I value honesty plus several different view points, sometimes it helps solve the problem!<P>------------------<BR>Chick's<P>You won't see things until your ready to not be blind!<BR>

Sheba,<P>Don't try to "educate" him (disrespectful). He'll get resentful that your "telling" him he's stupid (okay WE know he is ) Tell him you are working your relationship skills<P>------------------<BR>Prayers & God Bless!<BR>Chris<BR>For relationship info check out <A HREF="http://www.pcisys.net/~chriscal1/resources.html" TARGET=_blank>www.pcisys.net/~chriscal1/resources.html</A> <BR>

Sheba,<P>I think you have the right idea with no games. If you want your h back, hold the door wide open! (Still keep your boundaries to keep yourself safe though) Hopefully h will not let pride keep him from facing a mistake and coming through the door. While the door is open keep working on yourself. H will notice the little changes and wonder what is up with that. Keep your positive outlook You have had great response from h in the past.

hi sheba, yeah i have to go with the no games group here! I hate that kind of nonsense. But there is a time that I think we can choose not to play games, be honest but move forward. Sort of like lightening up and putting the problems aside for awhile? We tend to get so wrapped up in this infidelity that the focus remains on it rather than on the good things that can experience. You sure have it right about getting to involved in all the knowledge that we forget to heal! Yep, yep, yep! <BR>(((hugs)))