I thought I would start a new thread with a new title, as my last was rather dramatic, and all that seems to have calmed down, but hey, could all start up again, given the personal roller coaster H and I have been on!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

A quick re-cap of the last few weeks...

These last few weeks have again been so emotionally charged and difficult. It started nearly 3 weeks ago (Saturday) where H and I got into a huge row with him removing pictures from the wall and completely loosing it with me again. He had been back to Germany and it had clearly affected him. The following Friday, he did not come home all night and did not telephone. The worry was immense, the sick feeling and fear of what he may have done to himself will live with me for a long time..... It transpired that H had stayed with a single female colleague, although other than kissing and sleeping together (him on the bed, her in it, both clothed), nothing happened. I believe him, but this was perhaps the final straw. H seems to have come to a point (about the A) where he cannot move forward but is stuck in a really viscious and painful cycle. Nothing I seem to say or do can help him.

I believe that H and I have been trying separately, but never together to work on putting our M back together. Funnily enough, I think this is a feature of our whole R. I was thinking the other day about how in the early years of our R, I was so besotted and loving towards H, and he just used to treat me so badly. Then, when he was loving and besotted, I used to hold back 25% - my "opt out" card he called it. I never believed that anyone could have a future for life, because people have always let me down in the past (my dad specifically)and perhaps in the early years of the R, because H was difficult and unreliable, I believed he would let me down too. So I held back, didn't give everything to our R, for fear of being let down. Then of course, I let him down beyond belief, I abandoned him.

So now, I feel that whilst I emotionally abandoned H, he is getting ready to physically abandon me. I also feel that my Mum is too with her move, although I sincerely wish her to be happy and well, it's just another strain and caught up with my perceptions of what has happened over the past few months.

I have also come to realise that I cannot change H's decision. As much as I would prefer him to stay and try and work things out, his mental state is so vulnerable, and he is emotionally wrecked, I actually think he needs to do this for himself if we are to have any chance of recovery. I have also realised that JL you were right - that time and patience thing certainly does change your perspecitve, and also LIR I think it was you who said that feelings are transitory. I know H and I have many issues, specifically the physical aspect of our R that would take an awful lot of work to put right, but I also realise that H has many wonderful qualities, and I'm not ready yet to give up on my M (certainly was 5 months back, but MBers kept me going). Even my C said to me on Monday night "Gosh, you really do care about him, don't you". I wish H could have heard that, because he still doesn't see that I do.

I also know that I have many issues within myself and with my feelings for OM that I have to work through, and maybe H not being around me will give me a better chance to do that. More recently, all my concern and effort has been going into him and his feelings, and I know that I have to truly work out what happened, why and somehow one day come to terms with it all.

The sadness I feel this week is immense - I don't want Mum to go, I really don't want H to go. I will be helping him move on Saturday. I have already thought of ways in which I can show him that I still care for him and want us to try and see if we can save our M. It won't work with only one of us working on it, and H must realise that, he needs to take responsibility for himself, and ultimately to see if he can take responsibility within our M. Whether he can or not remains to be seen.

I also know that whilst I love H and will do everything I can to support him during this difficult time, I will not allow myself to become over anxious and depressed again - if I cannot care for myself, I will not be able to help him. I need to find a sense of wellbeing for myself, and am also making plans for me.

Finally, I can't say if I feel optimistic, but I certainly don't feel pesimistic. It is hard to admit or voice, but H and I could not have carried on living as we were. It was too damaging for both of us, and without H being able to engage with me, the damage would have continued and become worse. It is incredibly sad, but I think it was necessary for him, and indeed for me.

Thank you to all of your for your wonderful advice. This week will get a lot worse before it gets better, but I hope to come out the other side a slightly stronger and wiser person. With everything I have learnt here, and the continued support of the MB Superstars, that should be able to happen.

Wishing you all well from rainy London.

Lisa

<small>[ December 04, 2002, 08:21 AM: Message edited by: Lisa in London ]</small>

Hi Lisa,
We don't know what will happen, but we always hope for the best for both of you. I (for one) hope you know that you have a lot of friends that care about you and are praying for a good outcome to all this. I believe you are going the right direction.

I wish there were more we could do to help. Please know that we do care.

SS

Lisa, when I read your thread, (and I have been lurking keeping up with most) I see by this thread that there is a strength in you and a calmness that seems to be taking over, you know what has to be done within yourself, you know that H has to figure his issues and it is a toxic and nonproductive atmosphere together to accomplish that. I hope you know that you are optimistic and that you are doing the right things to get you, your marriage, and realizing the healing that needs to occur on all levels for all concerned. We are always here for you and you know, strength by numbers, you have a really good, compassionate head on those shoulders!! and a heart that is willing to heal and move forward in a positive light. Please take care,

sorry to see that the road is so rocky for you lisa, but you seem to be v strong indeed and find ways to replenish your energy and to calm you down. maybe, distance from your H will help you even further in this.
knowing all too well how a BS feels, I suggest you keep up your offer for help to WH. It might not amount to much, but at least you tried. he has to find his own peace somehow, there's only so much you can do. but do that little bit - it will help you too.

Best,
Nick

Lisa,

I think you are correct it is time to work on you. I still suspect that part of your H's problem is he KNOWS you don't "fancy" him. If you can delve into that aspect of your relationship and understand why this is the case then perhaps more advances can be made.

It seems to me that your focus on yourself is a good plan. I know you also need to address the specter of the OM in your life. That will take sometime as well.

I do hope that you and your H at least see each other regularly, for dates and so forth.

I still think you and your H can make a go of this and make your marriage better than it has ever been. Not one where you are each groping in the dark as to show the other one how much you care for them.

Must go. Hang in there.

God Bless,

JL

As ever, thank you all for your kind words and support. Each message made me a little more teary eyed, as I realised how fortunate (although not in the best circumstances) it was for me to find MB, the wonderful insight, the caring people and just "knowing" that someone is always out there for me even at the bleakest times.

SS - I hope for the best for us too - yes me too, because whatever happens, we both deserve better things. I know I started this whole thing off and got H to this point, but he has to start working some things out for himself now. I wish I had that crystal ball or knowledge which told me what was going to happen, but hey, if I did, I'd pick the winning lottery lines, H and I would be madly in love, I'd be a good 15lbs slimmer <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Neesha - thank you so much for your kind and supportive words. I don't think of myself as very compassionate right now, but I think I've tried to learn more. I also think you were right that the environment in which we were living was very toxic, and damaging. I didn't want to give up though, I didn't want to fail by agreeing that he should go, but actually accepting it and supporting him, however painful, is the right thing.

Hi Nick - miserable old day today eh? I do actually feel a little bit stronger. I think it has taken a lot to get to this point, and it's also about accepting the things we can't change. I'm a real "fix it" sort of person, but the only person I can fix now is me. I think you are right, the space will probably help me.

JL - I don't believe that's really you as you didn't use the old T&P thingy! Are you an imposter?!?! I know H wants to see me regularly (weekly), and if possible, I would like us to talk every day as we did when he was in Germany - even if only to say "Hi, how was your day, everything OK?". Because for me, I am worried about him and want to know that even if he's sad he's still physically OK. You are right, there are issues I must address and I will take the time and space I have to do that. As I say, not optimistic right now, but certainly remembering that things could still be better for us if we both agree at the same time to do the work together. Whatever, you JL have given me so much insight and support, I have learnt from you.

Thank you all again

Lisa

Dear Lisa,

Just to let you know that I am thinking about you - this is such a difficult time for you - a lot of loss all happening at once. Its very important, I think, for you to try to make the effort to see the friends in your life who can really nurture you - your real friends - make the effort to be sociable, even if you don't feel like it, or even if you are afraid you will just bore them one more time with too much talk about the crisis you are going through. I'm sure you have friends who will help support you at this time - I find I have to make myself get out and call someone - I tend to want to withdraw and think about it all too much. But if I do make the effort, I feel so much better afterwards.

I also agree with JL - I still think there is a chance at reconciliation, and he may feel better about things, after he has had some time and space.

About the physical thing. I was thinking - I saw an article once about a study done on how big a role physical touch plays in interpersonal relations in different cultures. I can relate to your feelings of missing the physical touch of your A partner, as bad as that sounds morally. When I was 21, I was living with my first BF - but he had had a brief affair with another girl - I forgave him, he chose me, we got back together, but there were other strains in our R - we were both quite young, and playing house isn't a good idea - but hey, it was California in the 70's. I was working in a restaurant, and found myself hopelessly attracted to one of the Mexican cooks. The short story is my BF went off to college out-of-state. Instead of following him, as was the plan, I ended up having an affair with the cook - it turned into a 3 yr R, and was very painful for both of us - we were hopelessly mismatched for many reasons. But why was I so attracted to him? Because he touched me physically in a way that turned on all my buttons. His touch was affectionate, kind, comforting, caring, constant. He made love in a passionate and intense, long-lasting way. He was also a fantastic kisser and loved to take time doing that. In short, he had the gift of physical touch which I longed for and it was irresistable to me - I felt so loved. It was extraordinarily painful to have to end my R with him, because we didn't work in so many other ways. I had to give up having that EN met (in MB terms). I also know that he loved me - after we split up, I got the flu, and he came over and lay next to me on the bed all day, and held my head every time I threw up into a bowl. I still wouldn't take him back, even though he got down on his knees and put his head in my lap and cried. He was an alcoholic and could not stop drinking. When we split up, I couldn't then bear the smell of beer on someone's breath anymore.

Then last year, I read this article about physical touch in different cultures. The anthropologist observed people sitting in cafes in different countries and noted how many times they touched each other while engaged in conversation over the course of an hour. The Germans didn't touch each other much, the French did OK, the Italians much more than the previous two, but the Mexicans touched each other a whopping 180 times in an hour, and you guessed it, the British, not one single time! For me, since I went from a Mexican BF to an English H, I can relate to this a lot.

I have felt so "abandoned" by my H physically - he is "touch-shy" - he doesn't like being hugged from the front, although he will accept it if I hug his back. He doesn't like being stroked - his hair. When I reach out and hold his hand, he will hold it for a minute, then carefully put my hand back with me. He has actually gotten better at accepting physical touch as the years have gone by. He does not find bed the place for sex - when he gets in bed, he turns his back to me and goes to sleep. There is no cuddling and no embrace, no goodnight kiss. He just doesn't seem to know that there are other ways to be. I don't know if its just him, or if its part of him being English - well, whatever - I wish I could teach him how to touch me, but how do you teach someone that? I need help here with that.

But I always told myself he had so many other valuable qualities that balanced that out! I really don't know the answer to this one - I just think if only we could talk about it all in MC, we could learn what the other needs. I have never told my H that he doesn't "measure up" in the physical romance stakes, if I were to compare the two, as I think that would be cruel. Also, H can be quite a good lover in his own way. But its more than that - its not just sex - with previous BF, I FELT loved, because he touched me all day in a non-sexual way - and that made me want to have sex with him. My H hardly ever touches me in a non-sexual way and I hardly ever want to have sex with him in the same way that I did with the other.

There was a brief period this year, when H seemed to be trying to give me physical non-sexual attention - and that had good results with me. So I feel it is something he could learn, and would do, if he knew it was the key to success, as it were. Hope we get back there someday.

I hope this helps - I don't know if it is relevant in your case, but if it does help, I am glad.

I hear the weather is supposed to be dry and cold and bright soon. Roll on sunshine - I am glued to my lightbox lately - feel like I am living in a shoebox!

(((((Lisa)))))

LIR

Lisa sorry to hear you're low. But like I've said before it will get better.

Sometimes its wise to go back and reflect on others stories to. I would encourage you to go back and reread SKM's chronicles particularly where she outlines her feelings changing overtime.

Apply what she rights to where you are (of course you have the added difficulty of your H's ambivalence and being away). You will find a lot of similarities there.

It's time to look after yourself, but you should also remember that whilst you made a mistake you have done a lot more than many of the WH & WW here to try and put things right. Best Wishes Neil.

just to let you know I'll be thinking of you this weekend Lisa.

I'm glad that you are seeing the positive in you and H living apart - and hey, there is always positive and negative in everything.

As you know my WW and I live apart but the time we do spend together is much better than it was when we were together - and I mean before all of this happened. The only thing I would caution against - for both of your sakes - is to put too much routine into your meetings. It's difficult becuase we are all busy but sometimes I feel my W and I slipping into a routine of seeing each other certain times and doing certain things and the danger (for us anyway) is that then she starts to feel too comfortable with that and that leads to boredom.

So keep it fun - I try and think of it as dating again and getting to know each other again, from a different perspective.

Anyway, take care of yourself.

Good morning everybody.

LIR - thank you for your story - I did laugh about your Mexican, but I think what you say is right. It's about how someone makes you feel in the wider sense and I think H and I have become more and more distant. Also, if things are difficult anyway, the pressure you then feel to put things right becomes worse. OM was a very touchy feely person. I am going out, various Christmas dos etc, but sometimes find it hard to keep it all together..... Friends are kind though and I am lucky with the ones I have. At least no rain today but dry and a bit brighter than it has been. Thank you for your words and support.

Neil - I will go back and read SKM's Chronicles which I have read before. I know that time changes things, and I know in the 5 months since d-day (5 today actually), I have changed and behaved differently towards H which has changed how I feel towards him.

Bowd - thank you for your thoughts. I understand and hear what you are saying and hope that H and I can begin to enjoy each other's company again. Unfortunately there has not been much of that because of all the hurt and upset.

My mum is still waiting to exchange contracts let alone complete. She has been on the telephone and I feel so worried for her. The house is all packed up and they are ready to go. My sister is with her, but I feel torn that I should be there, although I could really do nothing. Everytime the phone rings I'm hoping it's good news for her.

I collect H later today and he has said that we should have a talk about how we will communicate and see each other. I am sad, but resigned and hope that I can do a good job and not cry too much.

Thanks everyone, I'll keep posting over the weekend.

Lisa

I have just heard that finally, finally, exchange has taken place on my mum's house, and they will complete on Monday.

They are just leaving (it is past 3.00pm here), but they will have to stay in a hotel, although furniture is going in.

Whilst I am really pleased for her, I am still so very sad. The stress for her must have been immense (on top of this, she had to have another of her cats put to sleep) and I don't know how she has coped.

Now, I have to leave for the airport to collect H and more sadness. Perhaps he has had a change of heart, but I doubt it. <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" />

Lisa

Lisa, am thinking of you. Try not to be negative try and be positive.

Firstly this is a new start for you Mum, in time one would think also a happy one for you with her too in her new environment.

Secondly your H is back and you can continue to work on your M no matter what the outcome. You are moving forward regardless, remembering that in time things will be better, maybe not now but in the future and that is getting closer one day at a time. Best wishes, too much red wine from West London <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> Neil.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Lisa in London:
<strong>The stress for her must have been immense (on top of this, she had to have another of her cats put to sleep) and I don't know how she has coped.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Because in the face of adversity most people can stand tall, cope and move forward. It's often called Human Spirit... and hey you have it too <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Hello Lisa,
I have been keeping up with your threads from Oz. I don't have any wise words but just wanted to wish you good luck for this weekend with your H and also I am glad that your Mum's stressful move will soon be finished. Keep on keeping on-you are a very courageous person.

Regards from Down Under!
Deluded

Hello Everyone

Well, firstly Mum finally arrived at her new home (although she can't move in till Monday!) at gone 9.00pm last night, although her furniture didn't arrive, but when I spoke to her this morning it had just turned up. At least she is there and in one piece, although somewhat frayed. One of her cats got lost, and is still at her old home though - anyway, hopefully things will calm down for her soon. I am hoping to visit her next weekend. I guess what is sad for me now at this time is that I can't talk to her as I would if she were still in Sussex. She is not connected to a phone and doesn't have a mobile. Plus she has so much to organise and do. Anyway, I'll just have to get on with things here by myself and a little help from MBers.

H arrived back last night and I collected him from the airport. He was quite picky with me on the way home - my driving, etc. He hadn't changed his mind and we spoke for a short time. His C suggested that the flat "may be a safe place for you, where your W does not go" - I mean was I cross or what!!!! Clearly not in to helping built Ms. I know it will be his space, his place, and I would not go uninvited or if not wanted, but to cut me out like that is horrible to even think of. He also said that he did not think we should speak everyday although he wants to meet once a week. I said that I would have liked to speak every day, but then he started getting a bit cross with me and saying "These are my boundaries and about me". So, I will have to go with what he wants. It will make it incredibly difficult, but since then he has said I can call him whenever I want, or e-mail or be in touch as I would like. He is sending very conflicting messages.

After being picky and the conversation about him leaving getting a little heated, he seemed to change completely. He became very affectionate and loving towards me, and we spent a fairly pleasant evening together. We even slept in the same bed last night - for me, I feel so sad and lost about so many things it was such a comfort. This morning he seemed so sad, and I said "You don't really want to go do you", and he said "No, why an earth would I WANT to go, but I have to". He also said "Things seem OK, and then I have to remember why I have to leave". I just don't understand this. I see the last crisis as one which could be a positive changing point for both of us. It's like he wants to, but is so hurt and unsure, he can't bear the thought of anymore upset. He has explained many times about why he feels he needs this space, but then I really don't think he wants to go. Positively, there was a lot of affection between us, and some open conversation. Sadly, he did still go and sign the contract for the flat and will start to move his things when he comes back from his C session.

Neil, hope your head isn't too bad today!!! Thanks for your words of support, I know things aren't over, but it's going to be hard with H somewhere else. Yes, my mum is a tough cookie. My sister's partner said to me "I've seen so many different aspects of your mum today it's unbelieveable. It's been her own strength and courage that's got it all done". Apparently, at a fairly tense moment she told one of the van men "The way I feel at the moment, I really don't give a f**k!!!" My Mum, girl power <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> She also gave her rather useless solicitor a bit of a rocket for being rude to her. I do hope she'll be happy there, really I do. It's just Lisa stuff that makes me sad.

Hi Deluded, I was so glad to see your message!!! I was wondering how you'd been, and how your Mum is. Please do a note if you can and let us know how everything is going for you. Thank you for dropping by and lending some support.

So, moving out time comes closer, and I feel sadder, but onwards and upwards. I must try and show H as much love and support as I possibly can. I told him, that I do truly understand what he has told me and why he needs to do this, but that even though I do, I can't help but feel incredibly sad, and upset by some of the things he says.

Will keep everyone posted.

Lisa

Well, pretty much he's gone <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" /> <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" /> <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" />

I tried to do everything right today - he agreed to let me help him and see his flat, so I packed his things into my car, and unpacked them again at his new place. I let him take my car overnight even though I could use it myself. I bought him a box of household bits and pieces that he may need, plus a houseplant and some flowers and a card from me. I didn't cry (until he finally left) nor did I query his decision again.

Am so very tired and sad now.......

Lisa

(((((Lisa)))))

I'm only on for a few short minutes - H is out of the house collecting OS to come home for dinner. I have also been thinking of you this weekend and knowing how rough things are for you. I also feel the way you do - sometimes I don't know what kind of support I can offer - I have no words of wisdom or any insight that would help move anyone's situation on to a better level.

I really do hope that this will turn out to have some positive consequences for both of you.
I know that must be impossible to consider, but it is my hope for both of you.

I am thinking of you, down here in Kent - isn't the weather grim? I wish it would snow - at least then it would look white outside and not this awful grey. Have you heard from your mum? Are you going to go down and see her new place soon, and have you made any plans yet for Christmas? Lisa, did you say that you work from home - I know you said that you are self-employed, but it seems you do travel a bit for your work. Are you still getting out for your work these days - is that hard right now, or is it a relief to be able to carry on with work?

I have to go now, but will be able to come back online tomorrow morning and I'll check up on you then.

Take care of yourself.
LIR

Hi Lisa,

I'm sure it has been a very tough day for you so just wanted to let you know we're thinking about you here on MB.

You said
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> It's like he wants to, but is so hurt and unsure, he can't bear the thought of anymore upset. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">He will not be wanting to go - but he probably knows in his heart that he will not be able to work fully on him - and therefore in turn your R - whilst he is living with you. It seems from your messages that he he has difficulty in not letting the whole situation get him down. I would also say that in my experience that when you have good times together he probably forgets (for the moment) what has happened and then he remembers and his taker steps in and says "whoa... hang on fella - have you forgotten what she's done??"

It sounds like he wants to forgive but so much in our society tells men (however educated and un-macho they maybe) that a WS is unforgiveable. I think maybe he is finding this conflict in his own head hard to deal with and probably feels that moving out will do, at the very least, two things for him:

1. it will allow him to work through these feelings in his own space and decide, one way or the other, what he wants.
2. it will stop him forgetting why he is in the situation he is in.

Now I know the second may not sound like a very positive point from you pov but...

he has to work it through for himself. And it is in many ways positive because I am sure (given that he sounds like an intelligent, sensitive guy) he will come to realise that the A was a symptom of how you were feeling about your R and that you both had a part to play in that. And he won't (if you are not there) simply be able to become defensive and throw all the blame back on to you. Hopefully he will realise that blame is pointless anyway and start to think about how he wants to move forward.

I don't want to hijack your thread but I hope that the following will help illustrate what I am trying (not very clearly) to say:

Being on my own has given me lots of time to think about why and how our R fell into a hole. I have realised that OM is not the reason (and the reasons are too many to go into here!) but - in our case - a reason for my W not to get completely close to me again until she has worked out what she wants. I think she chose him because he was unavailable as a permanent partner (due to living in the US). I don't mean to say she doesn't love him because she does have very strong feelings for him. It is very hard for me to accept this but I have to - whatever I decide to do.

Where our stories diverge is that you have given up the OM, but your H still has to come to terms with your feelings for the OM, understand (with your help when he feels able to ask for it) the real reasons behind your R breakdown and decide what he wants.

Hmm - just re-read that and I'm not sure it makes what I am trying to say any clearer <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

I hope this has helped you to view the move in a positive light but if it has added confusion my apologies.

Take care and don't forget to smile at least once a day just because you are you <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Well, not sure if I feel any better today, just up and down and pretty cross.

Firstly, I slept from 10.30pm till gone 7.00am, got up and fed my cats, went back to bed, and didn't stir again till 10.30am. I don't think I had realised how exhausting it all was. I phoned H and he came round at noon. He was all over me physically (really quite surprising), and I said use the car to take your last things and then just drop it back. I didn't want to push him given him wanting space, and say, I'll come with you. He said to me "Oh, why don't you come with me and you can see what I've done". So I said OK and then I'll drop you at Homebase (a UK DIY store,) for some bits he needed.

We took the last things into the flat, and he laid down a rug, which he had put in the machine to wash before he left and I had dried out overnight for him. I went to walk across it and he said "Don't walk on the rug Lisa". DUH, like, where am I meant to walk, the room isn't that big? I just said "For goodness sake H". He said again, "Don't walk across the rug, I've just spent hours cleaning it". I said "For goodness sake H". He said "For goodness sake what, why don't you just f**k off". I politely reminded him, that he had put the rug in my washing machine, and I had dried it, I had wiped my feet before coming in, and did a little bit of mud really matter in the wider scale of things? I told him to F Off himself and said I would wait outside in the car.

When he came out, I said, "Have I got doormat stamped on my forehead?", and he said "I really don't know what you mean, you've done me a couple of favours". A COUPLE OF FAVOURS!!!! I said, I think I've done more than a couple of favours and he said "Well, actually you're begining to get on my nerves, asking me if I'd like to come round for dinner, I don't want to". The ungratefgul git, so I said "Actually, I put myself out for you completely, I helped you move, I bought you things you needed, I lent you my car overnight even though I needed it myself, and I didn't even want you to move out. I think that's a lot more than a couple of favours". At this point, I think he realised what a pillock he was being. Do you know, I thought, this is what I DON'T like about H - don't walk on the rug, like I'm a child who has stomped mud through the place, then the verbals, you did a few things, you're getting on my nerves, all because I said, "If you'd like to come round for dinner later, given that you've had a lot on and might not feel like cooking, you'd be welcome" Hardly, being pushy. I was then actually teasing him about it.

He apologised and said he knew I'd done an awful lot for him, but it wasn't easy for him either. He told me that he had missed me last night, and when I said, "Why were you all over me, what was that about" he said "You're a very attractive woman Lisa". I know I shouldn't be cross, but I feel hurt - this is H belittling me - memories of old. Anyway, we left on a fairly positive note, and he said we'd go out on Tuesday and he would pay for dinner to say thank you, but finished by saying "But I'll speak to you before then".

I just don't know what to think of it all. Bowd, I think you actually made some really good sense of it all. I appreciate your thoughts. I think he does want to forgive me, but is so hurt and pained, he just can't let it go, and then when he is lightening up, something reminds him, and yup, he goes "STOP, Look what she's done to you, can you get over that, will she let you down again?". You are right - generally (excpet for today!!), he is sensitive and insightful. I think he needs to work his things out for himself. No, you didn't take my thread over at all, it helps a lot when people use their own experiences to put things into perspective. By the by, a little smile <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> Thanks for stopping by, I so appreciate everyone's support.

Hello LIR - thanks for the hug. I needed it, and Mum has been pretty unavailable. I left 2 messages for her yesterday and she still didn't call me. I haven't spoken to her at all in 3 days pretty much. I know she's having a hard time, so am I. I just wanted to talk to her yesterday..... I'm planning to visit next weekend.

Yes, I am self employed, and work is pretty busy right now, although I don't have a lot out of home work. I am keeping myself busy, but actually feel I need some relatively quiet Lisa alone time. My friend offered to take me to see a film last night, but I soooo needed to stay in.

I know JL won't believe it, but yes the weather is grim. Someone told me yesterday there was snow in Sussex. Wish it would head this way. LIR, you have said many sound and insightful things - just knowing that you are out there is a real bonus and very positive for me. However much or little you say doesn't matter, but I'm always glad to see a post from you. Thank you.

Well, I'm going to do a bit of work now and then have an afternoon nap - sooooo tired again.

Lisa

You are so exhausted on every level now Lisa, and that is your body and mind saying to you, "Hey, you have neglected yourself and put so much energy into everything that has not been good for you or H. Now it's time for you to grow for you, and I bet you in time (and I don't be mean a long time) you will see H transform too.
You both have cocooned yourselves in the personas that have negative triggers for you both and causes pain. But then there are the glimpses of what was once special between you both, and then H falls back to old trigger to negate that because he does not feel safe and trusting with himself from past pains he MUST let go of. I just see 2 people that are going to emerge from this as the people they most want to "BE" for each other and themselves!! He wants to let go of the "crap" he knows is destructive for you both in the relationship and I think you want the same things. I think it's going to be so beneficial. Now REST your MIND and BODY!! That's an order as we Americans are so pushy!! You both are going to survive this and be so much better together. Take Care keep us posted.