Hello Everybody and as ever thank you very much for your support.

Nick, I think this is excellent, skating at Somerset House. Wonder if I can persuade him.... We will be having turkey and H talked about doing voluntary work. However with the girls coming at various different times it would be difficult to make that commitment. I am going to suggest that perhaps we could visit an old people's home, or the children's ward at the local hospital - get the girls to put together some old books or toys or something. I think we both need to realise, that whatever our problems, there are others out there too with issues that perhaps would help us put things into perspective a bit. Nick, I hope you enjoy your Christmas, and let us know when you go off skiing.

LIR - WOW THANKS!!!! I thought I was crap at all this, and you told me I did a good job. Hadn't thought about it at all in that way, but yes I did, didn't I. I didn't get cross, I took a deep breath, let him talk, acknowledged his feelings, and we finished the conversation in a really positive way. That's really not been happening a lot, and I think having the time away, not talking etc. helped me to do that.

I am glad that you have been able to go out and enjoy yourself, I have found that too. Yesterday, I went to South London for a party in the afternoon. A few months ago, I wouldn't have bothered and would have felt too insecure to do this. But you know, I had a GREAT TIME!!! I caught up with quite a few friends that I hadn't seen in an age, and it was just lovely. I almost felt like the old Lisa. I am feeling quite tired now, with all these outtings and shopping etc. but yes I can enjoy myself. I will be thinking of you over the festive season, and hope that you have a good time too. With children around it does help - I know I am very glad that the girls will be coming over.

Hi H_P - thank you for your words. I too hope that I will be able to get on the forum, but if not, I wish you well for Christmas and the New Year. You know JL always talks about time and patience, and when you said about being patient, it suddenly dawned on me what an impatient person I am. H says "Oh Lisa you're like a child at Christmas, you just can't wait can you!" at various different times about various different things. I want it to happen, and NOW!!! But that old T&P thingy is very very important. H needs space, I must let him be. It is quite interesting how just leaving the phone calls for a couple of days has slightly changed the dynamics of the situation. He clearly doesn't feel pressured, I'm not so worried, and am more tolerant if he is being picky, so I must remember - PATIENCE!!

Hey Smudger, good to see you again, another of the Brit contingent!! I know it's difficult to keep poping off to the PC when you have guests/family other things to do, and this place is rather addictive isn't it? I am in IC and with that and MB I'm learning an awful lot about myself. I can't push H, because it will push him away. But I can keep working on me, and I intend to do that. It's funny but at 38 years of age, I thought I knew who I was, but in the past year, that's all been turned on it's head, and now I'm trying to find the real Lisa again. Thanks Smudger, I hope you have a great Christmas and an even better 2003.

To all of you out there this year that have helped me so much (and you know who you are), I thank you from the bottom of my heart and hope that you have wonderful and happy times this Christmas and New Year.

Lisa

btw, you can also go skating at Marble Arch - looks quite nice. I'm off to do some skiing on the 26th, returning the 3rd. the charity thing of yours is a good idea. another one: why not cook something gorgeous & ask H to pop over? tell him, no R-talk, no nothing, just a dinner. and then, be generous with the candles and the indian sticks.
best of luck - hopefully 2003 will be slightly (much!) better than 2002.
N

Lisa,
Merry Christmas to you, too. I can relate to your H's words--I am a child too, in not being able to wait so well. Thanks for the smile. I am , however, learning to be more patient.

All the best to you over in foggy London!

Take care,
H_P

Lisa,
It's hard to know just what to say, but I wanted to try and cheer you up. I have found that most people make their own luck as they go through life. It seems to me that the ones that consistantly have good luck are hard workers and prepare well for what they need to face.

So, with that introduction, I am wishing for you to have very good luck in the future success of your marraige.

Besides that, I wanted you to know I care. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

SS

<small>[ December 24, 2002, 11:46 AM: Message edited by: still seeking ]</small>

Well, Christmas is over and I don't know where to begin.

H arrived back from Germany safely and came over on Christmas Eve in the morning. He didn't stay long but took my car and went and did jobs etc. It was weird not having him around during the day, but he came back early evening. YSD and her friend came over in the evening, and my neighbour and son. It was a nice evening but I sensed H's distance and his thoughts going back to other years.

Christmas morning we were joined by ESD and their Mum for a couple of hours, then they all left and it was just H and I. We had a good lunch and talked generally about things. We then had presents in the afternoon. I felt really sad - I had told my family that I didn't really want presents, didn't feel deserving or in the right mood really. I seemed to have loads this year, from friends too. Bottom line, H didn't like his present. I had put a lot of thought into what he would want - when he left he told me he didn't have a radio. So I bought him a Roberts radio (which he'd also said before he would love that brand). H got really upset saying I'd bought him "a domestic appliance" (DUHHHH!!), and that I was putting him in a box again, that he had been usurped by a man with a sports car, and all he gets is a radio that makes him feel like Roy Cropper. (For those of you who don't know, Roy Cropper is a particularly dull, staid, steady character in a soap).

I was mortified, because I had taken alot of thought and time - all the time thinking about what H would like, wouldn't like, what I should do, not do, and he just threw it back in my face. I told him that I couldn't do right for doing wrong, at which point he threatened to leave. I said I thought this was rather childish just because he didn't like his present and that had upset me. Anyway, he stayed, but things were to get much worse.....

On Boxing Day, H had left his mobile in the kitchen. He had sent a couple of texts to people on Christmas morning, and I wondered if one had been to his single colleague. Well, I had a snoop through his phone. Bearing in mind H told me that he didn't even have her number (after when he slept at her flat. Funny, he has made calls to her and received calls from her, and received texts from her. I had a good snoop, and clearly he is lying about his R with her. So, I confronted him, asked him not to lie to me and tell me the truth of his R, about not wearing his ring etc.

He denies he is in an R with her, but he has been out with her ("Not on a date"), but that she is away at the moment. We talked for about 3 hours about many things. I think his friendship with her is inappropriate given that he is married, and I also know my H, I believe that whilst he is not quite at EA stage within a matter of months it will develop into EA and probably PA soon after. He of course denies it all. She's a friend, she's straight, uncomplicated, kind, makes me feel a bit better about myself - she wouldn't want to be invovled with me, she's 15 years younger than me. Well b***sh**!!! She's already asked you to stay at her place knowing that you were married. What also upset me is that he has told her about the A and that we have separated. This was all within the space of moving out and going to Germany - less than one week.

H has physically been changing the way he looks - sunbeds so quite tanned, lost weight, exercising, new clothes by the dozen. I know he wants to feel better about himself, but it seems fairly classic signs to me of also trying to impress someone else - someone younger. They had not been in touch for a couple of weeks, but she is in the States for the holidays - only reason I reckon. I read the messages she sent to him - they're not quite the ones I send my friends, signed off with 2 kisses.

Other than this revelation, H said he doesn't wear his ring because he does not feel M to me anymore, and that he thinks he cannot move forward with me. All things that I suspected because of his attitutde towards me. He said that when he was away in Germany he thought of 4 reasons why we had no future - I actually found the list in his wallet - yup told you I had a good old snoop. The list said (along these lines)

1. Can't get over the way I've been treated - the way she made me feel and the way I feel about myself.
2. Forgive/forget
3. L has no chemistry for me
4. Will not be second best to anyone
Time to move forward and move on with my life

This is pretty crushing really, but as I say, not unexpected because of the way H has been treating me. He told me he didn't like me ringing him all the time and doing things for him "It's just like you think, oh I'll give him a bit of time and he'll come back" he said. He also said we were very much in different places, and all he wanted to do was concentrate on himself. He said many many other things, but I'll focus on some of the positive now.

H said, "I tell people I admire you, because you have done so much to look at what you did and why, and you've become more reflective and thoughtful." I told him I missed him and he said he missed me too, and that he did still love me. I told him that I was scared of a future without him in my life, not scared to be alone, but not having him close to me. He said he thought we would always be close and always in each other's lives, but I think he was just saying it because he could see how upset I was. We have no reason to stay in each other's lives unless we are M. I also told H that the way he had been behaving towards me was too painful and I did not think I could continue to have contact with him if he carried on as he had.

H also said, "Oh, it would be easy to say, let's try again and forget it all". But I told him that was actually the hard thing to do - he would really have to address many issues, he could not keep bringing up the A, he would have to work on him and us, and that he couldn't just run out when he wanted. He acknowledged that what I said was true.

We put everything aside and the girls came round for a late lunch and stayed for several hours. H and I then spent 2 very nice days together and really enjoyed each other's company, shopping, walking, just being. The talk really cleared the air. However, this morning (I knew H was going today), he got up early, packed up put his coat on and just came and said "I'm off". It was like he couldn't cope with the closeness we had, and had to cut loose. When I asked him why he was going so early, he said "I have to go back to where I live, my home and sort my things out, before going off this afternoon". (He is going to visit his Mum). He wanted to shut me out completely because he had let himself get too close again. Last night, before I went to bed, we hugged and kissed, and he actually said "Goodnight sweetheart". He hasn't called me that in yonks.

I'm sorry this is rather long and rambling, but so much happened. In a nutshell, I think H wants to get close to me, but then feels the pain and hurt and shuts me out. I also think that to deal with this he will develop his R with this woman, because she makes him feel better. H will not address issues about "us", but only himself, and I don't see how this will change, because he won't LET HIMSELF CHANGE.

That, I think is the key. And without that ability, we do not have a future. As I have said before, I do not want to keep setting myself up to take a kicking from H because it hurts and tires me, so that I loose any sense of self worth that I am beginning to re-build. If I don't have that, it is incredibly hard to have a M anyway.

I am very very sad, but I can see which way this is going, and it's not towards rebuilding our M.

If you have managed to get through this post, thank you for reading.

Lisa

Well, a bit more has happened.

After I posted this morning, I realised that H had left a few bits in the bathroom. I called him, and said did he want me to drop them round. We talked about his journey to get the hire car he is using, and he said the trains were messed up today. As the weather is sooo bad I offered to take him to the tube to make it easier. He accepted.

He also said "Thanks for a great few days I really enjouyed it". I said I did too, but how hard it was to then have to cut loose, which I knew he had done. He agreed that this is why he had behaved as he had.

Before I left to collect him, I made him a sandwich and put a drink in a bag for the journey. I also wrote him a note. I can't repeat it verbatim, but I said along the lines of

Thank you for the last few days, although it was a bit rocky we got there in the end - and I believe that is because we do care about each other whatever happens. I also said that I am sorry if I had been irritating him by phoning and doing things for him, but I wanted to show by actions and words that I care about his wellbeing, that I love him and that I am sorry for the hurt and pain I have caused him. I told him how happy it had made me that he had called me "sweetheart", and that I knew he meant it because he did not say things lightly or without meaning. I said that I now wanted to tell him that however long it takes, I promised I will do everything within my power to never hurt, betray, or let him down again, and that perhaps he would be able to find it in his heart to forgive me. I also said that I want him to be able to rely on me and trust me, to be proud of me and that one day I too could be proud of myself. I told him that with all of my heart I wished him a peaceful, fulfilling and happy 2003, and that I would be thinking of him at New Year.

I don't know what will happen. He was a little reserved again on the way to the tube. I told him I'd packed some food and he laughed and said, "What, not going to give me any pocket money?" and I said "Oh no, but there's a clean hanky in there!". I think before, he would have been cross but, it seemed a good sign that he just joked about it.

I hope maybe the note will remind him not only of the good few days we had, but how truly sorry I am and how I am working hard to put myself right and to show him.

Thanks for the rant earlier, I needed it.

Lisa

LIL-

It sounds to me like you had a good few days together, all things considered. It's very important that you managed to spend significant amounts of time together without conflict as this type of "safe" contact will play a critical role in bringing about a R.

When things get tough for you, I'd suggest not dwelling so much on how things will play out in the future but rather concentrate on the present. I'm sure you realize this but you actually have ALOT going for you. Try to continue to gather strength from the struggle as you move through this. I say "continue" because it's obvious your H has noted positive changes in your personality:

H said, "I tell people I admire you, because you have done so much to look at what you did and why, and you've become more reflective and thoughtful."

I think you're doing great Lisa! Good luck!

-G

Hi Litchfield

Many thanks for your note - it's been a bit slow out there this weekend and my thoughts have been churning round. I think what you say about focussing on the present is true - this is also about me being so impatient - I want things to happen and happen now, and I know that will not be.

I think also because H has been withdrawn it is hard to keep a hold of him - he can easily cut away because of his hurt and pain. I know he enjoyed himself, and he called me this morning to say that he got the note. He thanked me for it and said that it had meant an awful lot to him, that it was thoughtful and well written and he was glad to hear those words. So, that was a good thing rather than an irritant!!

Litchfield, I know it was great that we got through the rocky bit then had some good days, but I am so worried that H will drift from me, and I can't do anything about that. I know his R with his colleague will develop as sure as eggs is eggs!!!! LIR mentioned about it being a revenge A, but I think H is so damaged, he just wants to feel better about himself, whatever it takes.

It's hard to think about the here and now, when I don't even know when I might see him again, when he might call, who he is with, or what he is doing.

Anyway, thanks for your support, I do appreciate it, and I hope you have a great year in 2003.

Lisa

LIL-

"...but I am so worried that H will drift from me, and I can't do anything about that. I know his R with his colleague will develop as sure as eggs is eggs!!!! LIR mentioned about it being a revenge A, but I think H is so damaged, he just wants to feel better about himself, whatever it takes."

It sounds like you can, and have, done something about this. It's frustrating for you because of your self proclaimed impatience, but believe me, you're making progress.

From what you've mentioned so far, I don't think it's a foregone conclusion that this relationship with his colleague will develop into something romantic. While it's certainly a possibility, I'd suggest you trust in your H's ability to distinguish between right and wrong. He's no doubt spent lots of time thinking about the ramifications of such actions and I'll bet that he eventually decides against it because of his feelings for YOU. I know from personal experience that it's IMPOSSIBLE for him to meet her needs(this WILL become obvious over time) and that he'd prefer, under the right circumstances, to put his energies towards R with you because that's what feels "right". Good luck and happy new year to you and yours as well!

Hi Lisa.

I agree with Litchfield, your H may be hurt but another R with another woman would be more likely if your A was still going on. Furthermore, there is progress in your R with him and this is further reason to be hopeful that he will not engage in a 'revenge' A. Not to mention your shared history which is not something that can be so easily swept under the rug either.

Lisa you are doing a wonderful job and I beleive that even your H with his hurt is probably aware of it as well. Keep you head high.

Hi Lisa,

I wouldn't try and pay to much heed to the issues with the gift. Xmas is a nightmare time particularly the first one after revelation of the A. In my case Xmas 2001 was very hard and despite trying my gifts weren't that appealing either. No matter what you had bought there probably would have been a problem.

The focus however is that you are doing good in maintaining contact with H and avoiding LB's. Remember that whilst Xmas is hard for you I can tell you first hand its awful for us BS <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> emotions are almost heightened by the period. Oh and new year is just as bad.

Regardless of how you feel about those few bad times, the exposure to another woman, and the cutting loose I would suggest that you concentrate on the many good things you have said. Particularly his view of the new Lisa and the reactions to the nice things.

Regarding the supposed OW situation I can understand his feelings for that and in turn sympathise. However I think he is seeing you and the relationship - just not on your timeframe.

So step back reread what you wrote and realise that this is good stuff. I really believe that. Many of us here would have loved to have the chance that your giving your H.

Neil.

Well, firstly a happy 2003 to everyone at MB. For me, this will be the first time in 13 years that I will not be with H. Sadly, I do not know where he is or who he is with. I don't feel that it would be right to call him, so I just have to wait and hope that he may think of the good times we have had this Christmas and in the many years before.

Litchfield, Coffeeman, Neil - well thanks for the vote of confidence. I just don't think I'm doing so well or making progress. To me it was such a backwards step for H to move out. It's hard when you don't know when you will see someone or even speak to them again to keep positive. I hope that you Litchfield and Coffeeman are right about this potential OW. It pains me to think that I have hurt him so much that he would be prepared to chuck the rest of our lives into the air with the other debris. I see that it is a thought for him, but he seems to put it that it the onus is on her. I think you are right Litchfield in that it would be impossible for him to meet her needs because he cannot even hold himself together, but what if all she wants is casual sex and a bit of a fling - that would probably be fine for H too? I don't think she would be anything serious, but I see her as a potential threat.

Hi Neil! I've been thinking about you and wondered how your Christmas went. I hope you and the girls had a good time, and that you have a nice night planned for tonight. You're right about the whole present thing - LIR also said any other year he would probably have said "Great, just what I always wanted!". The whole experience was a bit of a minefield, trying to get the balance right between showing that I care, but not overdoing it.

"Regarding the supposed OW situation I can understand his feelings for that and in turn sympathise. However I think he is seeing you and the relationship - just not on your timeframe."

Neil, what exactly do you mean? Even though we cleared the air, had a great time etc., he was really pleased to get my note, he says nothing has changed for him about how he feels. Are you saying that there are clues in all this that he does see an "us"?

I suppose the sad thing, or perhaps one of the most poignant things, about MB for me is that whilst there are many BS's out there dealing with WS's in fog, actually gone, getting DV, etc. etc., for the FWS here, myself, Kily, Hopeful Person, Jen Brown etc. all we really want is for our BS's to behave like one of the BS's out there and give us another chance. Of course, when I first came here, I didn't really know that was what I wanted, but deep down, I always knew that there was a little bit of glue that stuck me to my H, and that I would want to give it my all one day.

Hopefully 2003 will be a better year for everyone.

Lisa

Happy New Year Lisa,

Although actually it isn't here yet, still morning.

I think in the list your H made, the KEY one is: </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">3. L has no chemistry for me </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">He is fully aware that you don't "fancy" him and he doesn't know what to do about it. If you focused on this point, and looked at it from his point of view, then you see why the other points are on his list.

Now you could say that he should sort of just accept that you LOVE him, but don't "fancy" him. But, Lisa I would bet good money that is what he thinks the reason was that you had the affair. And you haven't changed YOUR feelings for him or addressed this issue.

Lisa, my recommendation is to address this issue, one way or another. If you cannot come to develop chemistry for him, then I don't see how he can come back. I hate to be that frank, but that is how I see it. This issue goes to the very heart of people. It is something you two need to talk about, it is something you two need to work on.

My simpleminded recommendation would be to talk with him and tell him you don't want to work on the marriage until you and he have addressed this issue together. You may think he is exercising and tanning for this other girl, but Lisa my bet is the one girl he wants to really notice and be affected by this is YOU.

Address item No. 3 on his list and you and he will know what to do about the marriage. That is my simpleminded approach to this.

Your marriage isn't over Lisa. You are struggling, he is struggling, but neither has given up completely. Time and patience coupled with focusing on one item at a time will get you through this.

Frankly, you both know that #3 is what is standing between you two: ADDRESS IT. Talk, be honest, try things, seek counseling about it, whatever but get it on the table for discussion. Talk about your fantasies what you really like, what you don't, get him to do the same.

You don't have to do this on the forum Lisa, but you two really need to do this NOW. Quit feeling down, quit dragging around, quit worrying about what he MIGHT be thinking, and do something. Open up about this elephant hiding under the carpet in your house. Don't tip toe around it any more.

I must go, but do think about this a bit.

Happy New Year,

JL

PS: This year WILL be better than last for you. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Hello JL and thank you for your thoughts and words. I always appreciate your insight, and I do agree with you. Of coure a R needs to be physical, I do know this, and I think it is perhaps the greatest worry that I have, let alone how H feels about it.

I don't worry about your honesty - heck, if I couldn't rely on you and the others here, it would be a sad thing! In some ways I have come so far, and this is what H has seen, but I truly think I needed to do that to get through my sadest times, and when I was most depressed. I needed to look inside and find out about me. I think that now I have come closest to the answer to the question of "why", and I have been pondering whethEr to post on that thread "Why do people cheat", but I fear being flamed by some of the BS's, or fear that I've actually got it right.

I know that my focus and energies now need to be chanelled towards this on going issue, but I am not sure whether H will be prepared to work on this with me. At the moment, a lot of what I feel towards him (obviously) is shaped by how he treats me - and frankly that hasn't been so good. JL, but I do hear what you are saying, and I know that I can carry on working on myself alongside addressing this issue. I don't think I was able to do that before, because it was as much as I could do to hold myself together.

Well last night was the first time in 13 years that H and I were apart. He actually called me in the afternoon (which was very unexpected) to wish me a happy new year and let me know where he was. He said he felt sad and reflective and I told him I understood as I did too. At midnight, I sent him a text message saying that I was thinking of him and wishing him a happy new year. He responded that he hoped I'd be happy too as I deserved it. He also called me today when he got back to London and asked if we could meet tomorrow if I wasn't doing anything. All these things have quite surprised me, but I am happy that he is the one calling and asking to see me. Frankly, I was very surprised and didn't think I'd hear from him in a while. I know this is positive. I actually enjoyed myself very much last night, although I got very tearful at midnight, but as I said to H, there was a big something missing - him. He felt the same.....

2003 will be a better year for me I know. I know that whilst I have done a terrible thing, I have learnt a lot and hope that this will make me a better person - it was a harsh lesson to learn in a very harsh way, but everyday now I try to stay positive and keep moving forward.

Lisa

Hi Lisa,
IT seems that your situation is so very hopeful! Your husband is reaching out to you, and it's quite apparent he really misses you .

You and I have both learned some harsh lessons, and I know there's so much more to learn.

Think about what JL said, I think it's very valid.(physical attraction) It is an issue that needs to be addressed. May I ask you , don't you 'fancy' your husband more now, than ever? In other words, hasn't all of this turmoil helped you see what you perhaps couldn't see about him, before? Just something to think about. I don't know about you, but sometimes I take for granted things that are right there, in front of me, and instead think of the unrealistic 'things'.

It's a great sign that he's calling you, and returning your Happy New Year wishes. Please don't give up at all!

Take care,
H_P

Hey Lisa, just chiming in and agreeing with JL. Happy New Year too you.

What I meant about your H seeing you and your relationship was that I believe based on what you have said that he wants it just not on your timeframe. By that I mean he is moving towards recovery MUCH SLOWER than you desire or perhaps expect to see.

This I feel is a combination of several things:
1) Loss of Trust
2) Concerns over chemistry
3) No counselling
4) Fight & Flight Issues that have already transpired.

4 is prettuy much done, 1 you earm by actions over time, 3 is upto him but can be aided by YOU going and inviting him (which I admit I have tried to no avail), and 2 as JL says you can tackle.

My 2003 is going to start with me tackling the things I can right now and leave the things I am not ready for just yet. Perhaps thats a tact you can take? Best Wishes for this new year - Neil.

Hello Everyone

H_P, Neil many thanks for your thoughts.

H_P you asked whether I fancy my H even more. I find it quite difficult to talk about intimate things here (the great British reserve eh?!), but there was something, a particular incident that happened between H and I that we never really resolved. It's a long story, and one that I don't really want to go into, but suffice to say, this damaged me terribly and because of it, I withdrew from my H. I have a fear of loosing control and letting go. Interestingly, H's councillor said to him (and I think this is the only relevant thing she has said that he has told me), that we had both behaved like children in our R. I think this is true to a greater extent. H and I have similar histories from our childhoods, and during our R there have been certain things since 1997 that we just have not addressed. I think we always thought we could cope, we were meant to be, we'd always be there for each other, but sadly, that's not true.

If H and I were to get back together, there would be many unresolved issues to tackle irrespective of the A. So the answer to your Q is no, not really. I have actually started to see my H in a different more positive light, but his recent indifference and rather poor behaviour towards me makes it hard to really desire him, especially now with his new "friendship". I need to work on these things for myself as well as for both of us.

Neil, I hear what you are saying, but H is still saying he has not changed his mind, and he sees no future for us. I'm not ready to give up yet, but I will not be used by him. I think what you are saying is exactly what he said to me - we are in different places. He sees my efforts to heal to move forward, to push away the pain that the A caused, and I know that his struggles are infinitely more difficult than my own. I very much intend to work on the things that I can. Thank you as ever for your concern, and I know your 2003 will be much better.

Lisa

Lisa,

I think you have no chance unless he feels you do have "chemistry" with him. I would bet a lot of money he feels that is why you had the affair.

It seems to me the best thing you could do is talk with him about this issue. It may lead to past issues, FINE. But talk with him. If you want to save this marriage, then it is clear you need to rekindle your "chemistry" with him. How? I am not sure, but tiptoeing around it won't do it.

Blaming him for things in the past won't either. Lisa you know one thing about him he doesn't know about you. You know he does love you and he does
"fancy" you or he would be long gone. He doesn't know the same about you. I know you have told him you want to "try", but you then back off.

Please understand this if he didn't care he wouldn't be in such turmoil. He would simply move on and end it. He isn't doing that. You are going to have to stop responding to your "feelings" and start responding with your thoughts.

I think you will be surprised if you bring this issue up. It will hurt him, but he will understand that you are really getting "serious" about trying to rebuild the marriage. It may work, it may not, but my bet this is the lynch pin to many of your marriages problems. TALK WITH HIM.

God Bless,

JL

Hi JL and thank you for your words.

I agree with you totally - I know that this is key, but please don't misunderstand me when I talk about this specific issue from 1997. I know this is where things started to change for me and I know H and I never really addressed that - I'm not blaming H for this, it's just what happened. From there, that's when our physical relationship started to deterioriate. So what I'm saying is that I can identify the crisis point, but I need to know how to put it right. It's not a question of simply bringing things up from the past, this incident changed our lives and damaged both of us. Don't think that I am using past experiences as excuses not to deal with the very real issues of the day - I think it is at least something that I can look at and see if I can try and work out how to put it right from there. I worry though that I have left it for far too long, and how exactly I can put it right.

I know H and I have to address this, but when he says to me "You don't have any chemistry for me", I can't lie and say "Oh yeah I do". One thing I have become is scrupulously honest. And I'll be honest with you too, of course I wish that I could get that back. I too know that if that was there, we'd have so much else to build on. We both know (H said at Christmas) that we do love each other and care about each other.

The other thing that is of course difficult at the moment is being able to bring up any R talk with H at the moment. I think that I feel the need to build on the positives that we achieved over the holidays - the fact that H says he does still love me, he misses me, the positive changes he has seen, how much the note I wrote meant to him etc. etc. Today, for example, we did go out, but only to do some food shopping together and then for a bite of lunch. It wasn't appropriate to talk about anything other than "frippery" - is that a Lisa made up word I wonder?!?!?!? I know I need to wait for the right time, and I hear you. Whether H will respond or not is something I can't predict.

JL, I am serious about my M, but aren't I allowed to have feelings too, or do they just have to be shelved?

Lisa

Lisa,

First the short answer. If this event has done the damage you indicate to your feelings for H, then it isn't ancient history. It isn't an excuse to find reasons for things that happened. It isn't an excuse if you are willing to address those reasons, especially if they sowed the seeds of your A. I say talk about it to him.

Now for the LONG answer. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

You said </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> agree with you totally - I know that this is key, but please don't misunderstand me when I talk about this specific issue from 1997. I know this is where things started to change for me and I know H and I never really addressed that -</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well then let's considering addressing it.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I'm not blaming H for this, it's just what happened. From there, that's when our physical relationship started to deterioriate. So what I'm saying is that I can identify the crisis point, but I need to know how to put it right. It's not a question of simply bringing things up from the past, this incident changed our lives and damaged both of us. Don't think that I am using past experiences as excuses not to deal with the very real issues of the day - I think it is at least something that I can look at and see if I can try and work out how to put it right from there. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">If it had this profound an affect then, it is clear it must be addressed. If it hurt both of you, then you both need to address it. It sounds to me like it may be a key item to address. For if you redevelop your "fancy" for him, it will help him immensly in his recovery. He may not appreciate how this event has changed your view of him and perhaps there are things he can say or do to resolve this issue.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I worry though that I have left it for far too long, and how exactly I can put it right.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You obviously left it for two long if it led to the deterioration of your desire for your H. Can you put it right? Maybe yes, maybe no, but perhaps the goal should be to resolve this issue with your H once and for all and then see how things proceed. I suspect he doesn't see a way to get you to "fancy" him. This particular thing offers something concrete that both of you can and should address.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I know H and I have to address this, but when he says to me "You don't have any chemistry for me", I can't lie and say "Oh yeah I do". One thing I have become is scrupulously honest. And I'll be honest with you too, of course I wish that I could get that back. I too know that if that was there, we'd have so much else to build on. We both know (H said at Christmas) that we do love each other and care about each other.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well, girl, being your standard issue "Problem solving" male, my recommendation is address this problem with him. It might offer him more hope than you realize. I think you are getting an idea of how frustrating it is to want something to work out and not have a clue how to do it. I suspect your H has that feeling in spades. Offer him something to address with you.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">The other thing that is of course difficult at the moment is being able to bring up any R talk with H at the moment. I think that I feel the need to build on the positives that we achieved over the holidays - the fact that H says he does still love me, he misses me, the positive changes he has seen, how much the note I wrote meant to him etc. etc. Today, for example, we did go out, but only to do some food shopping together and then for a bite of lunch. It wasn't appropriate to talk about anything other than "frippery" - is that a Lisa made up word I wonder?!?!?!? I know I need to wait for the right time, and I hear you. Whether H will respond or not is something I can't predict.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I can predict it though. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> He will respond if you mention sex. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> He will respond when you tell him that you think you understand a few things about why you no longer desire him. He will respond when you tell him you would like to get that desire back and you know where you feel it started to go away. He will respond if you tell him that you will need his help (perhaps even a counselor to deal with this). He will respond when you look him in the eyes and tell him in all honesty it isn't there for you but that you do love him and what that desire to be there for him. You need his help. That this is a crucial issue for you, and clearly one for him as well.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">JL, I am serious about my M, but aren't I allowed to have feelings too, or do they just have to be shelved?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">No one said you weren't allowed your feelings. I said you shouldn't act on them and let them drive your thinking. Just remember I would be saying the same thing to your H if he were here. It is time to answer the bell.

1. THere was an A.

2. What do the two of you want to do: end marriage, save marriage?

3. To end marriage it is easy just do it, and leave.

4. To save the marriage, means that hard facts must be addressed, and yes some pride swallowed.
a) One hard fact, it will never be forgotten
b) Second hard fact, it can and must be forgiven.
c) Hard fact for him, you don't "fancy" him but you did the OM.
d) Another hard fact for him, he failed as a husband and didn't take as good care of you as he needed to.
e) Another hard fact for your H, you (Lisa) can never make it up to him. What is lost is lost and he must deal with that.
f) Hard fact for you, you have hurt this man deeply and you will never undo or erase the scars.
g) Hard fact for you, you must work on why you lost your "fancy" for him and address it with him.

5. You both need to remember what it was like to be first married and start to build toward that again. Your old marriage is really dead, a new one can rise from the ashes.

Do you see any statement of feelings there? No, you don't. Feelings are good things, but they are not actions. Rebuilding the marriage takes actions and I think you now have an idea of an action you can take. You may also notice that your H has more to swallow than you do. It isn't fair but it seems to be the way things are. The "feelings" of unfairness (I you can invent words so can I <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> ) are "feelings" he is simply going to have to lose.

I would suggest that you write your H a letter. In is state that you think you are beginning to understand a few things. You think you now understand where your "fancy" for him began to wane. You want that "fancy" for him back, but you will need his help. Not in a blame session but in a session where the both of you work to address your issues to : air them out, to see if there are some remedies, to come to some mutual agreement about them. State to him, it is clear that unless you get this "fancy" back that the marriage will be in trouble no matter how much you two feel love for each other. Invite him to come, at a specific time to talk with you. It is urgent that you two talk. Then when he calls and says he cannot come at that time, then negotiate a time.

Tell him these things. Tell him you have been going over and over why you had the A, what led to the A, why the marriage was in the state it was when you started the A. You need his help in this problem solving endeavor, because you want to feel for him what you should. Make no guarentees, but assure him this is NOT going to be a session to bash him. If he feels like he is being blamed he should tell you so, so that you two can discuss those feelings.

Does any of this make sense? I hope something does. I apologize because I don't have time to proof read this mess, and I am sure some words are missing. I type fast, but seem to think faster.

God Bless,

JL