Dear Lisa,

Its been sunny here too today - just to let you know I'm wishing you well tonight - I know you will be having butterflies in your stomach, but I think you will say at least some of the right things, knowing you! You know, you do very well sometimes, and don't give yourself enough credit.

I have the same feelings as JL - that he may initially baulk at the suggestion (again) of joint counseling, but try to give him the space to think about this thing for awhile - look at tonight in the same way as you would present a business proposal - you have to give the other party time to think about it. I know YOU have been thinking about it all the time, but he hasn't - he thinks he has his mind made up against it already. You proposing this to him with a new angle, and a new aspect will actually make the prospect of joint counselling a new proposal for him to weigh up - he will probably need to go back to his IC and talk it over there first, anyway.

So give him time to think - a few days, and then get back to him and ask him if he's had time to think about it. Even if he says no tonight - in a few days, ask him if he has changed his mind, or had more time to think about it. Give him a chance to mull it over and room to change, even if he says no tonight. OK? All is not lost even if he says no tonight, remember that.

Take care,
LIR

<small>[ January 10, 2003, 04:54 AM: Message edited by: Lady_In_Red ]</small>

Dear Lisa
I tried to log on to wish you well for your meeting with H but couldn't-so frustrating. It is nearly 11pm UK time but nearly 7am here so you may still be with H now-I so hope it goes well and gives you hope-although I do think there is still plenty of that.
What I had planned to say was just-be calm, think carefully what you want to say and word it so it is not accusatory-what they call "I messages" rather than "you make me " statements.

I am thinking of you in Perth

Deluded

I was going to start a new thread saying "Sadly, it's not to be", then LIR I read your last sentence and thought perhaps it should be "Actually all is lost"

I know I have been prone to immense self doubt here not just about myself but my M also, but I truly know that H and I do not have a future.

I think I prepared for the meeting well - JL I cribbed some of the things you wrote and put them in a note for me, just in case I forgot anything important. I did my hair, my make-up, light a roaring fire, and made a curry - I know you Yanks will probably laugh at that, but H likes my curries, and what better on a cold night, an attractive, well turned out W, a homely roaring fire and the nice wafting smell of a curry <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> OK even this has made me laugh!!!

Of course, H noticed how warm and cosy the house was and how well I looked - actually said to me had I lost weight, and at one point in our conversation said how beautiful I was and strong.

But that's about as good as it gets. H thinks that we did address the issue, and even if we tried to address it further, it still wouldn't make me have chemistry towards him - no amount of MC or PST can change that - you either have it for someone or not - in my heart of hearts I agree with him to a certain extent too. I said that I still find him handsome, I like him, I love him, so why wouldn't it be possible to re-look at our issues to see if this could help me to move forward. I asked him if he would be prepared to help me with this, and he said "Why, what's the point". I said "To see if we can save our M". He said "But I don't want to".

And that dear friends is it in a nutshell. Whichever way I tried to put it, H says that I am trying to deny his feelings (although I said I wasn't), but by this he means, that he does not want to save our M and does not want to try again. Yes, he still loves me and cares about me, but he is emotionally drained and tired. I talked about saving our M through actions (pinched that), and I knew that he was hurt beyond belief, but could he not try through actions to see if things could work out. Same answer, "I don't want to". He said again that he is in a different place from me and is relieved and feels less pressure living by himself and being where he is. I told him that I wasn't asking him to move back in, but he said it wasn't about that. He also said it wasn't about not facing up to the issues, wasn't about punishing me, or even that he couldn't forgive me, as intellectually he has.

But emotionally, he is too damaged, and I guess that's just what happens to some poor people that are betrayed - whichever way they look at it, the damage is too great for them to want to recover their M. I think H has just taken longer to come to that decision point. I think H has actually thought about it and whether or not he could recover, whereas some people on discovery of an A say "no more" then and there.

I also discovered that H was busy "doing things" on Sunday and that meant he was seeing OW (which I suspected). I have refrained from referring to her as that, but now I choose to do so. H has warned me off contacting her, or his company, because he says that will destroy him and he will just go away (a bit of a threat there). He says he is not having an R with her and has not slept with her. However, she could only have been back from her trip on Friday/Saturday and he went out with her on Sunday. All that stuff he said about her at Christmas is bosh. He says that seeing her is not affecting his judgement, as there are no issues with her except that he likes her company and she makes him feel better. It is not about revenge (which I believe), but as I said to him, "Yes, you see her and she makes you feel better, but I make you feel worse, how could that not affect your judgement?". He then told me that I was just put out because she is younger than me. I told him, that as far as I am concerned, we are married, and it hurts me that he is going out with someone, and yes I am jealous, but she is a much lesser person than me, and I couldn't care about her age, because I KNOW I am better than her. I told him that IMO she is actively dating someone she knows to be married, and being single that makes her a bit of a tramp. Yes, I'm sure there will be some "wise" spark that will jump in here using words such as "boot, foot and other", but hey, I'm only human.

H told me that he didn't want me to beat myself up about what had happened, and I told him, that pretty much it's down to every other day instead of every day, so I'm getting much better.

I also told H that I don't want to see or speak to him for a while and I'd like either him (if he can on the grounds of Adultry) or me to file for DV. I told him that this is not about a fit of rage and because I can't have what I want, but that I have tried everything possible to see if he would be willing to work with me to save our M. He isn't, and it is too painful for me to continue it alone with him seeing OW, and knowing that he is unlikely to change his mind - and whatever anyone out there says, I KNOW HE WON'T CHANGE HIS MIND. I know my H, I know he will begin a PA with OW, I know it won't mean anything, and I know that although he loves me like no other, he can't get over what I have done to him, and therefore he will not change his mind.

So sadly folks, it looks like the single life for me. You may say it is too soon for me to make a decision about DV, but frankly, I know there is nothing to wait for and no hope - I know H and I saw it tonight. It was different from Christmas, and if there had been a chance, that's when it would have been, but he choose not to take it (which was difficult I'm sure), but his decision is made, and so is mine. I told H that my decision was a hard one, because I do still love him, but I need to protect myself now.

Deluded - hi, our posts must have crossed. I did a good job with the conversation I know. LBed a little about OW, but pulled it around again. Thanks for thinking of me, I've been thinking about you and your Mum too. Sadly, it's just not to be.

Very sad in London tonight. <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" />

Lisa

<small>[ January 09, 2003, 05:17 PM: Message edited by: Lisa in London ]</small>

Lisa,
i hope everything goes well. Maybe some time on his own will make him realize that he misses you more than he can bear and will find a way to work through the hurt and let it go.
Not that I am advocating the A but it sounds like he contributed to it. All of us BS's contribute in some small way. I am just glad to hear that you are getting over beating yourself up. Let us know how it goes.
Hugs and Love
Layli

Dear Lisa,

I am so sad that it has come to this. I am thinking about you. Keep posting. I wish I could think of something inspiring to say right now to help you through this. You have many friends here who will respond to and support you so keep posting.

You are in my thoughts.

Deluded

Lisa,
i am so sorry. How are you? You know, I on't know what to say confronting closely the same things myself. I guess I hope we can both realize there will be goo ays ahead.
Maybe we can both find people that treat us the way we deserve to be treated.
I'll be thinking of you sweety.
Layli

Hi Layli/Deluded

Many thanks for your words of support and comfort. This morning, I feel so miserable and sad, but I truly know that H will not change his mind, and the pain it will cause me to continue in "trying" to save our M will be too immense. His EA will become a PA, and he will become more indifferent to me along the way.

I have also come to the conclusion that H is right about chemistry, and I can't make it happen. Yes I could have addressed the issues that happened between us further, but that wouldn't make me "fancy" him. I have searched my heart and my soul to try and understand why I did what I did, but no amount of soul searching, councilling or whatever can change this. Sometimes, people fall out of love with their S, but I still love mine, I just do not find him sexually desireable. In some Ms, this can work, but that's probably if you're much older than H and I. H wants and deserves SF, I can't give that to him, and the fact that I could to OM would be a further stumbling block for H, even if I could rekindle my desire. So however hard I try to prove my love to H, my sincere regret and shame for the A, fundamentally it cannot change this part of me. I wish I could, but it can't be.

H deserves to be happy, and one day, perhaps so do I. Perhaps I will meet someone - H already has, although she will not be the love of his life. I cannot compete with H's feelings, no amount of Plan Aing will make him change his mind or his feelings - he does not want to try and save our marriage.

I started looking at DV info on the website today. It was horrible and felt unreal - I guess I feel unreal too. Although corny and a bit clicheed, today will be the first day of the rest of my life. I still hope that one day H will trust me again and be proud of me as a friend, or his XW, or someone he used to love, but sadly it won't be as his W.

Whatever happens, I still intend to come to MB. The support, love, advice and care shown by all my "friends" here is better than any councilling I could have paid for. I have learnt from you all, but particularly JL, LIR and Neil. Maybe my experiences may help someone else. I also want to thank Still Trying - I don't know if you're reading this, but you made me dig deep inside myself to find my answers about OM - I'm still digging. I know that all of you have helped me to move away from the selfish, arrogant, egotistically driven, self centred person I had become. I don't like the old Lisa, or the Lisa that I became. I think the new Lisa has a way to go, but I like her a lot more - she is much wiser, more humble and can acknowledge her flaws.

Sorry, this has become a bit like an Oscar speech, but I need you all to know how important MB has become to me by the strength, courage and insight it has given me to live through these last six months and come out the other side still feeling relatively like a human being.

Lisa

Hey Lisa
Happy new year to you - sorry that 2003 didn&#8217;t start better than 2002 ended. Just one word of advice to put thing into perspective: right now, your husband is still very, very hurt. Anybody, I mean literally anybody, who makes at this point encouraging noises and fulfils one or two of his needs will hit home *big* time. Your H is v vulnerable right now, and OW seems to come around just at the right time. I write this because I know how I feel myself - if someone would come around, offer me comfort, fun and understanding, I'd be very, very tempted.
It must be galling to see this how she is able to deposit love units into his love bank and, maybe, even manipulate him. But that shouldn&#8217;t worry you anhow, 'cause the only way to make it work, to make *you* work, is to focus on yourself.
Good luck
N

<small>[ January 10, 2003, 08:23 AM: Message edited by: Nick123 ]</small>

Hi Nick

Welcome back - how was your holiday? I hope things are a little happier for you than me right now. Happy 2003 to you too.

I hear what you are saying, and I truly think that is what it is about - he has said "She makes me feel better about myself", and that is the crux of it. I know he isn't doing this about revenge, to get back at me etc. but because he wants to feel better about himself because he feels shattered - he still blames himself, thinks that he must be a terrible person. I can't change that, but it appears with a little effort she can.

Sadly, as I say, I know it is time for me to move on - H does not want to recover our M, and will not change his mind.

Thanks Nick.

Lisa

Lisa,

I don't have a lot of time, but to put it bluntly I think you are wrong about many things and I think so is your H.

First, let's talk chemistry. Yes, it may never come back. But, I have been married over 26 years and I can tell you chemistry does come and go. I didn't come to this site 4 years ago, because my marriage was in great shape. I came because the "chemistry" was gone. I felt my W just needed my pay check, and frankly I was feeling I need anyone else but her. I was ready to walk.

You are on the right track with regard to this event and you need to address it no matter what.

Now, your H. He is having an affair. So tell me, where you honest when you were in the affair? Did you feel deep love for your H when you were in the affair? Did you notice all of his GOOD points or were you focused on his failings? Hello!

You cannot believe a word he is saying. He basically paraphrased the time honored: "I love you , but I am not IN LOVE with you."

So what do you expect? He doesn't want counseling. He doesn't want to work on the marriage. He doesn't "believe" that the chemistry can come back (it was there once).

Lisa, IF you love your H. Give this time. Plan A him and see if the affair will end. They usually make it about 6 months once they are out in the open.

Calm down. If he really wants a divorce, he will file, anything short of ACTION is just words, and we ALL know the words of a WS in an affair are subject to some doubt <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> . Right?

I know you are down. But, girl you must see this for what it is. He is having an affair. Could you forgive him? Can you work on your own issues? I think the answer is YES.

You have learned much here, use it, Lisa of London. If it was worth something once in your life, it is worth fighting for now. It may not come to pass, but you will be able to look yourself in the mirror for the rest of your life and know you did your best. That will be more important than you can imagine whether or not your marriage makes it.

Plus don't discount the time of the year and the dreariness of things. It does affect peoples moods, and their focus. Keep that fire burning, keep the curry warm, and get busy with the rest of your life so that you have things you enjoy doing.

Let, time take its course Lisa. As they say here in the states: "It isn't over until the fat lady sings." She isn't even warming up her voice right now.

Patience!!

God Bless,

JL

JL - thank you for your thoughts. Your words are always very wise, but the thing is JL, H doesn't want our M - yes he may change his mind in six months time, a year whatever, and if he does, I will address that then.

H does not believe he is having an A - it is a friendship, he does not believe that he is married, he is separated. He even said to me "Don't even try and put this in the same category as you and OM". Sure, I know it isn't, but sure he's lying to me, and he's married to me and he's seeing someone else, and he doesn't want to see me.

JL, he has said that he just can't get over it. He told me that he keeps one e-mail that I sent to an agony aunt (yeah, I know doh!!), to "remind myself of how it felt on d-day".

I have every intention of continuing with my IC and maybe moving alone into MC to address my issues about how I feel about my H in relation to the physical aspect of our R.

JL, believe me, H will file for DV. He does not want me. I hear what you are saying about him being involved in an A, but he doesn't love her, and he thinks he is no longer married to me. In his mind we are separated and that means he is a free agent. He will never acknowledge this as an A, which means, that even if I were prepared to forgive him, it would be incredibly hard to move on because he would not see it as an A.

I am going round and round in circles here. To be frank, if it turns to a PA (and believe me it will), no I won't want to forgive him - because he will know beforehand how I felt about that - I told him last night. He sees what he is doing as perfectly fine. He even told me it would not bother him in the slightest if I were to date.

He will hurt me, (yes, I know I have hurt him), but surely this shouldn't be about tit for tat. JL he loves me, but does not want me. I would go as far as to say he probably is still "in love" with me, but he doesn't want me. Maybe it will change, but in the meantime, I don't want to be waiting to find out, because frankly I know it won't.

Sorry to be defeatist about it, but I just know my H. He is 45 years of age, and he sees a new opportunity for himself doing all manner of things without me.

Lisa

Lisa, I am so sad for what you are feeling right now. Although my FWH and I are making progress, I so so so so wish he were as committed as you to recovering our M. You are truly to be admired. Now, that being said, don't jump to hasty conclusions about your M being over....As some have already said, much of what he is saying is the fog talking and, regardless of whether it is an EA or a PA, it is an A and that fog can be very destructive. Also, many many many times while my FWH's A was active, he would tell me he wanted a divorce and did not want to recovery our M. I know it hurts, but it will take time for him to realize that this OW (and, yes, you did properly refer to her that way) is not YOU or what he is building her up to be in his mind. Also, with regard to chemistry - I agree with JL (God, he has given you REALLY great advice so far) that it comes and goes and you CAN get it back, but you can't do that by yourself.

Please, please, please, stay her at MB - you have wonderful insights to offer and we all think of you as one of our family. Meanwhile, if you ever would like to visit via e-mail or IM, I have included my e-mail, below. I will erase it once you let me know you go it. Besides, I was serious about having a UK MB get together when I am in London next May!

Much love,

Brit's Brat/BS-41
FWH-43
DS-14 months
Status: One Day At A Time.

<small>[ January 10, 2003, 09:28 PM: Message edited by: Brit's Brat ]</small>

Oops, double post!

<small>[ January 10, 2003, 03:30 PM: Message edited by: Brit's Brat ]</small>

Lisa,
JL hit the nail on the head. What good advice. You know I thought I "knew" my husband but didn't. Fog is scary and JL brought up some fabulous points. I think it's good to just keep an open mind. You never know what suprises lay down the road.
Big hugs
Layli

Lisa,

Well, if he files he files. But, don't give up on this yet. OK?

You said </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">JL, believe me, H will file for DV. He does not want me. I hear what you are saying about him being involved in an A, but he doesn't love her, and he thinks he is no longer married to me. In his mind we are separated and that means he is a free agent. He will never acknowledge this as an A, which means, that even if I were prepared to forgive him, it would be incredibly hard to move on because he would not see it as an A.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">If and when he comes out of this, he will know what it is, and you already know. The issue is and will be whether you two want a future together, not what you did in the past. It will come down to: can we be happy and treat the other as they would like to be treated. So don't get the cart before the horse. Let the EA settle out and then make decisions. You just keep on your path of dealing with you.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I am going round and round in circles here. To be frank, if it turns to a PA (and believe me it will), no I won't want to forgive him - because he will know beforehand how I felt about that - I told him last night. He sees what he is doing as perfectly fine. He even told me it would not bother him in the slightest if I were to date.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Lisa, didn't you at least suspect "how he would feel beforehand" when you had your A? Give me a break here. You knew it would tear him apart. That is why you kept it a secret. So while you may feel that you cannot forgive him if it goes to PA, you probably won't have an email detailing how "great it was" as he does.

So calm down. Let this work along for awhile. Work on your own issues. Continue with your life and let's see if he really does file for divorce. He may, but I do wonder.

Hang in there Lisa. He is fogged up and he doesn't really know what to do. This isn't about you, it is about him. Just as your A was. That is why you need to address your issues.

God Bless,

JL

Hello Everyone

Brit's Brat, it was good to see you here, you haven't been posting in a while. Thank you for your e-mail address, I have it written down now. I too feel that MB is my "virtual" family. I think the point I have tried to make but not very successfully or articulately is that my H was the BS, tried (in some ways) to recover at the early stages after d-day, but now thinks that he can't. He has done it all around the wrong way, if you see what I mean. I don't think that his EA affected the decision he made not to recover, but I think it will hamper his thought processes now. Does this make sense?

I am glad to hear that things are going better for you BB, and thank you for your support.

Layli, I hear what you are saying, but I don't think H is in the "fog". I think he separated in his mind and heart first, and then just thinks it is therefore OK to have an R with someone else. This is what makes it difficult to deal with. As I said before, he thinks he is doing no wrong.

"Lisa, didn't you at least suspect "how he would feel beforehand" when you had your A? Give me a break here. You knew it would tear him apart. That is why you kept it a secret. So while you may feel that you cannot forgive him if it goes to PA, you probably won't have an email detailing how "great it was" as he does."

OK JL, I knew this wouldn't quite come out as I meant it to, sorry. Let me put it like this, if I had sat down and talked with H that I had been dating, texting and communicating with OM, but had not had a PA, it wouldn't have happened. H would not have let it happen, and this is what we see on these boards here - people fear they are going to be involved with someone else, come here, and usually come clean before any sustained or deep damage is done. I have told H that I do not like his "friendship" with her, that if he has SF with her, he is still married to me and it will be not that much better than what I did - OK, what I did was worse, but do you see what I am saying. I have begged him not to do it, but he will anyway, so how damaging can that be?

"If and when he comes out of this, he will know what it is, and you already know. "

JL, he doesn't believe in MB principles, he also doesn't believe we are any longer married, he sees us as separated, and he has the right to behave in any way he wants. He did read SAA, but it didn't click with him. H hasn't meet my ENs in months and months. He will never equate his behaviour in line with mine (which of course, to a certain extent it isn't).

"Hang in there Lisa. He is fogged up and he doesn't really know what to do. This isn't about you, it is about him. Just as your A was. That is why you need to address your issues."

I know, I know, and I will continue with my issues. I don't intend to give up now - I have grown, I have come along way. I'm not even saying if H came back to me in X months/days/ years that I wouldn't want to try again, but I'm not so sure I could forgive his behaviour. I have asked him NOT to have an A with this woman, but he says it is not my business. If he had done the same, I wouldn't have had my A.

I guess I'm just weary of it all. Whatever, I don't think it's a bad thing to ask for some space right now. H goes to Germany next week as well. I think I just feel beaten really.

Lisa

I am so sorry Lisa. I wish he would have realized what a great healing opportunity you were giving him.
I am so sorry you're sad.
I am sorry things didn't go better.
Just wanted to let you know I was thinking about you dear.
Hugs,
Layli

Well Lisa, am so sorry for you. Have my own major troubles at the mo' so this will be short.

I am sorry your H has responded in this way. Just try and focus on yourself for a few weeks before you start pushing divorce, its an easy reactionary step to take if you are low.

Could you not Plan A for awhile. Keep in his face so to speak but not about you both?

Brit's Brat I could do with a get together my email is jenz@btinternet.com, its also in the email profile page. Feel free to email me and anyone else for that matter.

Best wishes Neil.

Lisa-

I'm so sorry to hear that the conversation with your H didn't go as well as you'd hoped. I've followed your posts for some time and have always been SO impressed with the way you've accepted responsibility for your actions AND have looked for ways to improve. I've thought more than once how great it would be if more WS's were open to that sort of self examination.

With that said, it seems as though you find yourself at another fork in the road. The next big issue seems to be, who files the papers?

"I also told H that I don't want to see or speak to him for a while and I'd like either him (if he can on the grounds of Adultry) or me to file for DV. "

To me, this matter of who files is not a minor thing and I guess I'm wondering where you're at with the whole Plan A/B thing? It sounds like you're in a good position for a "B" if you can muster it. It's also obvious that you're upset (and justifiably so) about his OW but I wouldn't let that cloud your judgement. I'd suggest you take the others advice and give this thing some more time rather than rushing out and taking the initiative on getting the D.