Hope,
I think you and H are on the right road. If you continue traveling the road, ( as opposed to sitting on it) you should do well, and I believe you will.

You will continue to have these problems or challanges, however you want to look at them. I asked my father a few years ago ( he is 73) if the problems ever go away, and he said, "no, but you get better at copeing with them." You have a lot of good material, and your attitude is good, I have lots of faith in you.

One reason I suggest Love Busters is that it outlines some of the problems we have, and how to fix them. Many books are great theory but help little with applicaton. I believe you can examine the material in LB's and get much of what you need. I think it would help you to further identify traits you learned in your own family that you want to correct. Also, it will help you know how to make the corrections.

It spelled out for me just want was going on. For instance, if you do this, this is what happens in your spouses mind, this is how they react, this is why. It has been a lot of help for me.

I think if you had read it a few months ago, you may not have written the letter to your H in the other thread. I think you would have said " what would have caused H to react this way," and I think you would have been able to figure it out and make some corrections between the two of you.

Anyway, I recommend it just for what you can learn about human interaction when we are under stress. I believe it is a very good help.

SS

<small>[ December 09, 2002, 09:42 PM: Message edited by: still seeking ]</small>

I just ordered Love Busters, Surviving an Affair (mostly because I'm curious about what's in there and possibly to pass on to others), and Buyers Renters and Freeloaders. The last might just be for my sis in law...but I'm sure I'll read it too. I'm halfway through Torn Asunder...excellent read, I'm going to recommend it to a local counselor I do some computing work for. I think that marital counselors need a better understanding of infidelity...it doesn't seem that many of them take it seriously enough.

Anyway...plenty of reading. Today was a sad day. Part of me was just dealing with the dream I had this morning. I don't have them often, but when I do it makes the past real again...when it feels real it's hard to hide from it, no matter how bright and wonderful today is. So, I know I still have issues to deal with back there. It reminds me of EMDR...they say that when you begin to work through your past pains it can bring forth memories and weird dreams, as well as intense emotion. That sounds about right!

I also heard a rumour today that a couple I think rather highly of is getting a divorce, and infidelity is rumoured to be involved. I know a rumour is just that...but still, I'm so tempted to stick a couple of books in the mail...or atleast a card with a mention of this website. I dunno...I don't want to be intrusive, yet I hate to let a family be ripped apart because of lack of knowledge.

Pepperband...do you think that Alanon would help me at all with the anger issue? I was at the afore mentioned counselors office this afternoon helping the phone guy put in DSL and picked up a book. It was something about 12 steps to self parenting. It was based on the 12 step AA plan and it was about adult children of alcoholics. I asked the secretary where the local Alanon meetings meet and when. Some people have said they really help...others didn't get much from them. I'm not sure I guess. I thought about checking it out after the holiday season...but I also start my business classes at the end of January.

Anyway...bedtime for Bonzo. Hoping for a good nights sleep and no dreams!!

I experienced some really super ALANON groups ... as well as a few really lame ones. Since I live in a large metro area, I had my pick. Your choices may be somewhat limited due to the small population of your community. (Do cows have ALANON meetings??? LOL)

H4F .... in what ways will you BENIFIT by becoming more emotionally available? What do you (think or feel) that you might risk losing at the same time?

Feeling vulnerable is the most astonishingly powerful experience <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> .... one that I tried to avoid for quite awhile after the A.

How much of your reluctance is pride do you think?

Pepper <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

H4F,

This is a great thread for me. I'm not in a position to post an opinion because the subject is a little too close to home for me and I'm not objective at this point.

I would like to say that I have had the book 12 Steps to Self Parenting; and it's awesome. I highly recommend it. I am also reading Torn Asunder and highlighting almost everything.

Regarding Alanon; from my experience it's like counseling in a way that if you can find the "right alanon group" it would be an excellent source of healing. Especially for adult children of alcoholics. There could be a sub-group that is for ACOAs in your area. It is my personal opinion that children of alcoholic parents suffer far greater than any other person who is affected by alcholism.

H4F, thanks for having the guts to post this thead and address this issue! CSue

<small>[ December 10, 2002, 10:49 AM: Message edited by: CSue ]</small>

"in what ways will you BENIFIT by becoming more emotionally available?" Well, I'd think I'd finally be free. Instead of feeling trapped by indecision, fear, anger, and/or emotional barriers, I'd be free to choose to love and be loved.

"What do you (think or feel) that you might risk losing at the same time?" The realm of being that I know. I guess I'd call it security, but only because I RECOGNIZE it. The other day when we were arguing I started yelling again...then I got control of that...then hubby asked me a question and the crap that spewed from my mouth surprised me even as I was saying it. It was like being outside myself watching me do what came natural...and yelling at me to SHUT UP, what are you talking about, I thought you were past this??? It was really strange. I guess I felt it was progress to actually be aware of what was happening, but I was deeply disappointed that I didn't seem to have the strength to stop it. Maybe it wasn't lack of strength...but lack of knowledge. Lack of knowing another way. Maybe with practice the "other way" will come as naturally??

"How much of your reluctance is pride do you think?" I don't know. I know it seems to stand in my way quite a bit. I seem to lose quite a bit of that pride after coming back to my marriage...yet I'm sure the "old me" is still close beneath the surface, not as far away as I would think or like.

I had an invite from a neighbor who caught word that I was interested in going to the alanon meeting. I told her I'd take her up on it after the holidays. They meet at 8 at night and I already have several late work nights due to the holiday season. Thing is I start my business classes end of Jan and that will mean a late night every week too. So, I'll probly just go a few times to check it out, and then decide whether to go back in the spring when classes are done. Even though this isn't a large area, we have many little towns around. So I'm sure if I don't like this faction...ummm....GROUP, then I can find another nearby.

CSue, glad to hear this thread is of interest to others! It's gotten a bit painful for me at times...but I guess growth always is. I might just ask to borrow that book. It's a small one and I'm sure I could read it in an evening. I'm really getting a lot out of torn asunder too, but I do see that some of his thoughts on how to deal with the A differ from MB. Still, very right on stuff. I'm going to ask the counselors office of they've read it and if they'd like to check out my copy. Maybe do a short term swap or something.

Oh, one more thing. I had an interesting dream this morning...somewhat more comforting I guess.

It started off like I was watching a movie. Something about an escaped convict and I was doing the Monk thing figuring out how he escaped and where he had gone. Well, then it flipped to H and son and I riding in the car. Hubby was fiddling with his seatbelt and not putting it on right. I was nagging at him to wear it right or it wouldn't protect him and to watch the road! I looked up just in time to see a 90 degree angle turn in the road that I knew we weren't going to make. It didn't really scare me, just surprised me. Well, everything went black at that point, but I remember just knowing we were sailing off the road and were going to hit at some point. I suppose it was black because I most likely shut my eyes! I didn't know you could do that in a dream! Anyway, I remembered hubbies not latched seatbelt and reached down to make sure it was hooked. It was and hubbies hand was there. We held hands and I just knew we were going to be ok. I wasn't scared. We did hit and then we spun and spun and spun, like we'd landed on ice. After that we broke through the ice and I knew just what to do. I told hubby to roll down the windows while I unstrapped the baby. We swam to safety and I woke up needing to pee quite badly <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

I thought this convo was pushing you a bit ... tell me to back off anytime darlin'.

Your dream reminded me of the tornado that ripped through your life, nearly ripping apart everything that you care about. You came through the worst ... together.

I love you.

<small>[ December 10, 2002, 11:52 PM: Message edited by: Pepperband ]</small>

JL, I keep reading your first post over and over again. It really sounds very very good for interraction with other people. I think it would be great if I could learn to do that with people! I can see you in action in my mind, but when I try to replace the image of you with me...I'm fumbling my words and my facial expressions give me away! My first reaction is I'll NEVER be able to pull that off. But then, my hubby didn't think he could be romantic either, but he's still willing to try.

If I'm in a group of people I don't know I tend not to look anyone in the eye, I'm positive I either get a "stay away from me" look on my face or the lost puppy look. Both somewhat manipulative defense mechanisms. I've actually tried to force myself to maintain a more welcome facial look and look people in the eye, but it almost makes me dizzy! How on EARTH do people manage to look other people in the eye and still remain upright?? I suppose the dizziness is just fear of the unknown or something. It's really strange.

The heck of it is that once someone else breaks the ice in any type of a group situation, I have no problem joking my way in. I'm ok with sharing and talking and listening, as long as some sort of conversation or topic is already started. When it's left up to me I really feel awkward! You said you ask two questions to their one...I never know what to ask? Do you go with the general "what do you think of this weather?" or something more personal? If something more personal, then how is it that you know what to ask???

Honestly, I've been trying to get better at eye contact and how I act in a crowd of new people and with general interraction with my customers. I think I'm getting better, but I'm still foundering in some spots.

The other downfall I have is not letting my facial expressions give me away before I have a chance to be neutral and allow the other person to air their opinion. When TMCM asked about how other people view me that's what came to mind. As much as I might SAY to someone that their opinion is ok...my face and eyes have already given away my first reaction to what they said. And more often than not my first reaction is defensive. DANGIT!!!

TMCM, I thought a lot about what you asked. I honestly have never out and out ASKED someone what they think of me (nor has anyone really asked me, I'm not sure how customary that is, LOL!!), but I'm pretty perceptive and can gather a lot from my friends reactions. I can see them back off when I get defensive.

I did have a conversation with a friend over a year ago where we opened up to each other to resolve a misunderstanding. I asked her why she'd never told me her true opinions on something, and she told me because I can be difficult to approach sometimes. I think she mainly meant I can be difficult to disagree with. She would have been fighting the fog at that time to boot..so I suppose she knew it'd be a no win situation so she kept quiet.

I tend to love to argue, and I can be somewhat competitive and love to win. I have learned that while it may be fun with strangers, it doesn't help with friendships. If everyone doesn't win, then no one does.

Mama Pepper....

Push away! My seatbelt is on <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> I've had a few bouts of just about bursting in to tears...yet I still can't seem to just let it go. I noticed a pattern yesterday that I do to keep the tears back. I hold my breath and then swallow. That's it...no more tears. I tried NOT to swallow yesterday in the hopes that the tears would just come...and I about choked. Guess I forgot to breath?? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

I have to work out of town today...waaaaay out of town...so hubby is going along with. Kind of a date day for us!!! I'm excited! Think I'll kind of stuff this stuff back a ways so I can just enjoy the day with him. Thanks all for all your input! I'm glad to hear it's helping others and that I'm not alone in this!!!

My real life kid has problems with eye contact too.

I work intimately with people every day ... and I give the best eye contact EVER! LOL! I learned that I can see into people better if I'm lookin' at 'em and they are lookin' at me. When someone cannot look directly at me, I usually gently touch them in a neutral place, like their forearm, and often, they will chance a glance toward me, an I smile and nod ever so slightly. This works more than 80% of the time ... I am now safe to look at. I don't have a lot of time to waste with people, so I find making eye contact, and directly approaching in a safe way is time and cost effective.

H4F ... can you play? Do you play with your son, and your husband? Playing is an easier way to build intimacy than just about anything else. Silly, non-competative play.

How did you feel when I said, "I love you"? Did you feel safe or threatened?

Pepper

Can I play??? Can I get a recommendation from our sons daycare provider?? I can't go in the door and spend less than 10 minutes AT LEAST cause I just HAVE to play with all those cute little people. I'm also very friendly and playful with friends and family...and tend to be the clown in friendly groups. Humour is my biggest shield :-) I absolutely love to play, no problem there.

I've been trying to look up more and smile warmly when I catch peoples eyes. Like I said, I have no problem once the ice is broken, but I just tend to keep my distance until then.

"How did you feel when I said, "I love you"? Did you feel safe or threatened?"

From you, I'm used to it, LOL!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> So no, I didn't feel threatened. But safe? I dunno...probly more so than I would if you were actually on the phone or in my presence. My dad rarely said it, but I say it all the time. When I feel warm and fuzzy I tend to blurt it out too much, LOL! My son has started doing that when he's particularly happy...and it really doesn't matter who it is! Grandpa, Grandma, Mom or dad, daycare lady, best friend...he'll tell anyone who makes him happy <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

One of the therapists we've seen over the past few years getting out son (and ourselves) healthy....taught me this:

Find what is healthy inside, and go with that. What works can be strengthened to compensate for what is not so healthy. Your strengths are many.

You are OK H4F. Really, you are.

Pepper

<small>[ December 13, 2002, 07:12 AM: Message edited by: Pepperband ]</small>