MM-

Man, this must be so hard for you and your family right now....You're still in the game so don't give up hope!! I don't have much to offer in the way of advice, only that I'd caution you to be consistent with your actions. In other words, if you tell her you're going to do something, you have to follow through regardless of how painful/uncomfortable it is. It sounds like trust is a major issue for her right now...Good luck!

MM:

You absolutely CAN make things worse! Just by continuing to play this stupid game, you're making it worse.

Look, my W is STILL talking about how she misses her OM, after not seeing him for more than a year. She still is in contact with him. He's asking her to come live with him. His W is having a revenge A, and is going away with her OM for Xmas. My W is "confused" and doesn't know what to do. Well, what do *I* do about all that? I COULD do what you're doing, and play mind games with her, or I could take every available opportunity to communicate with her that comes along. Particularly going someplace together to be a family together for the holidays. Do it. Don't be a fool. Stop expecting your W to do ANYTHING. I know how hard this is. I'm in the same boat, though my W hasn't left us. I can't stand this going on forever, and it feels like it will. But playing games won't do me any good, and it's not doing you any good, either.

Sorry for my anger, I guess it's just too close to home for me right now (Xmas and our anniversary 2 days later).

my best regards, believe me.

<small>[ December 19, 2002, 01:46 PM: Message edited by: T-zero ]</small>

Mortar,

I'm trying to get a couple of things done AND write as an abbreviated reply as I can. Should be back to you soon...

MITT

<small>[ December 19, 2002, 02:19 PM: Message edited by: MakingItThruThis ]</small>

Mortar,

I hate to keep saying this but I’m sorry to hear that things are still not going well. I can hardly wait for the day when I can say, “Congratulations I’m happy to hear you’re back together.”

Every positive and negative encounter you have with your W, I can so easily relate as I can hear myself saying / telling my W some of those same things when we were going through this. The dumb things said, the LB’s and “going to the mall” on your own, I’ve either done or would react the same way you have. I’ve heard my W say HUNDREDS of times, “it’s over, I don’t love you – I hate you, you’re smothering me, you’re manipulative and controlling.” And Mortar, we’re back together after the most horrifying experience of my life. So do not punish or question yourself, you are only doing what you think is right! As I know you can agree, you are in one of the most difficult scenarios in your life right now also. There is no right or wrong but there are such tremendous amounts of emotion connected for the both of you, I’m amazed at your stamina that you’ve exercised thus far…

One thing that I did A LOT different from you though is, that I encouraged US doing things together as a family. She many times (but reluctantly) followed along. Even though we were separated, these were my chances to Plan A her “to the max.” When I left her each time, I knew she would be going back to the OM and “reporting on everything,” but I also knew her being with me would “play” on him as MUCH if not more as it did me “with her being with him.” It caused arguments between them and gave them the real taste of life and LB’s. He tried desperately to stop us being together. As hard as it was, I never stopped her. So as often and as much as I could get together with her I would! It was also good for the kids (I also think the kids put some pressure on her). It is her time to see changes you’ve hopefully made and see how those changes are translated to family! You should be thankful you have the opportunity!!!

What is your goal here? If I’m not mistaken, it is to TRY and get her back. She “thinks” she loves him right now and in all likelihood, he at least probably loves her also. I know it is hard for you that she goes back to him day after day BUT I really don’t think you’re going to be able to get her just to say, “OK, I’ll come back and see if we can make it work.” It just will not happen like that. From what I know in my experience AND the way I was coached by Jennifer is an ultimatum(s) is a demand and a demand is a major LB! It usually seems as though demands almost always “piggyback” with angry outbursts and you have a track record of those also. So the only thing that happens is you worsen the situation PERIOD

Mortar, you have to accept that this is happening (and actually I think you have). You are not going to change her by threats, ultimatums and trying to control the whole situation. Each day you push her farther and farther away and I fear that if this keeps up at the pace it has, there will soon be ZERO hope of pulling your marriage into a recovery! Look at it man! If you really want to leave this in God’s hands then do just that and use the so little time that two CAN spend together and GLADLY accept her offers!!!

I’ll never forget the invitation that was extended to me on father’s day to come over and spend the day together. We had a great day which included dinner, we played as a family, we walked, we talked, all as if everything was normal – as you can imagine I was “sailing!” The VERY next day through a mutual friend I was told that, “she hated every second that I was there, that she hated me to the point that I all she could think about was being with the wonderful Mr. OM.” Does it sound familiar??? LESS THAN two weeks later was the transition!!!!!!!!!

Let’s not also forget, it’s probably your stubbornness, your principals and your attitude that put you is this living nightmare in the first place. What’s changed??????? I’d be willing to bet any amount she sees you as the same person today as the person you were when you were “pushing her away” before you went to Bosnia. Go back and read your starting post and the history. First it’s this way, then it’s that way, then full circle again.

Even if you decided to take my words “into consideration,” I’m trying to figure out how I would or how you can even approach her? If you call her and ask her to do some “extra” Christmas shopping with you, I think she’ll turn you down. If you ask her to come over to talk, I think the horse has been “beat dead” too many times. Spend Christmas together, why would she want to make the holiday any worse than what it already is? Your options are very, very thin and almost dried up.

Mortarman, I don’t want to beat up on you. All of this is only my opinion and the way I was coached by Jennifer. I want nothing more than to see the two of you together again. I don’t buy into this “tough stuff.” Because by all accounts “tough” is what got my M into trouble and I think it has yours! I battle to change that “tough” side of me everyday – I’m still evolving (I hope). You showed her the other side of you by dropping the D for now but then again you turned on her “in a second.” Read the two posts from T-Zero on the previous page– he understands!!!

I’m here for you in every way I can be Mortar. If you want I’ll back off and keep my opinions to myself – I’m just trying to help…

MITT

mortarman,

For what is worth. I am not sure this will apply but here it goes...

My IC told me today that the way my W and I have been treating each other (conflictive) the last few months is the same way we have treated each other during our 9 years of M, but that it is intensified because of the A. In hindsight it looks as if we both are trying to control each other into getting our own way.

The point I am trying to make is, if this is true, I (you) need to take a step back and break this pattern. How do I (you) do this? I'm not sure yet but I suspect it must be related to what everybody tells us in this site: "change must begin with you."

I would invite comments from everyone here. As I said, I don't know if this advice fits your situation or not but to me it's worth mentioning it to you.

Be well.

Mortarman, by your description it doesn't seem that you are in plan B at all. You are more than maintaining contact with her by initially agreeing to go Christmas shopping with her and the kids. If you were truly in plan B the only shopping she would be doing with the kids would NOT include you.

Even though I initially begged to differ with MITT on the divorce, I must admit that he does have some pretty good points when he says that you could have used the opportunity to score some points with her and piss off her OM to the point of love busting her. It's been stated by Dr Harley that in order for plan B to have a good chance of making the WS want to return to the M, a good plan A had to be implemented. You had already made a committment to go Christmas shopping with her and the kids despite being in plan B, and so you could have used the opportunity to have used your power of listening to her to add some love units to her love bank. At the end of the day, you and the kids go home, and you're back in plan B. Remember that God can't reach her to come back to you if you are love busting her.

MM, You have done what you feel you needed to do -right or wrong, it's not for anyone to decide but you. Also sounds like you need to try real hard not to Lb any more, regardless of the way things turn out. I know for me it only hurts me more when I did, so I stopped and you know what, I feel much better about MYSELF.. It's all about taking the high road, understanding you cannot do or force her to do anything in anyway. It takes time but eventually she will see your CONSISTENT behavior and only then will she begin to trust. You are absolutly right about one thing though, and that is to allow God to do his work - in his time. Sure wish I had had a clear head early on in my sitch, as I may not be a single parent now...good luck w/it.

Hi Mortar,

I'm sorry for this recent events.

I have to echo the thougths that I look forward to the day of congratulating you on getting back together. You have been through alot and so have your children. Reconciliation would be the best that could happen for you and the kids.

You don't have to LB and stay with your values. When she is around, Plan A. Show your good side. Let her enjoy your company. Give her a reason to want more. Not a reason to want less. You dont' have to beat it into the ground that you want OM out of the picture. Let her be happy after being with you. Trust me, OM will be upset over that one.

I don't know where my M is at, but I do know I am doing my best to Plan A. In the 5 years we have been married, this is the first time my H took me out, and bought me roses for our anniversary. I'm still floating from it. I dont' know if it was because I have been Plan Aing him or what. When I'm stressed out over school, he now recognizes it is school and the pressure, and not him and the kids. I stoped powerplaying him and started being more cooperative. By cooperative, I don't mean giving in to his every request, but the reasonable ones, I try to accomadate. If I can't I tell him and why. Recently, we were trying to garage door to shut right. He asked me something, while I was straining to push down on a stuck door, I answered, his immediate reaction was I was yelling at him. So he yelled at me back. Instead of my reacting and yelling back, I calmy said I was not yelling, I was answering while I was trying to shut a stuck garage door, so it may have sounded like yelling. You see, he is used to my arguing, that he immediatly responded, assuming that I was yelling. You dont' have to have a power struggle to maintain your independence. As much as it should be you not trusting her, there is an element of her needing to trust you. She needs to trust that things will be different. I understand that you cannot show her, if she does not see it. How can she see it, if you are not spending some time together. Even though you are in Plan B, when you do see her, Plan A. Have no expectations from her. Go with the flow. If you have no expectations you cannot get dissappointed, if you are not disappointed, then you won't LB.

Have a Merry Christmas, should you go with for Christmas. Personally, I think you should, if the invitation is still open. Relax and enjoy yourself. Tell the kids that you don't know if this means you are getting back together. That both of you want to spend Christmas with you kids, and this sounded like a good compromise. I understand that this might get the kids hopes up.

I'm throwing this at you. It may be a long shot, but could it be that she wanted her family to see if they saw any changes in you. Does she need confirmation from them that you have changed?

I truly understand that it is ridiculus that we need to earn their trust back, but if you think of this from their perspective, somehow, we failed our WS's. So, they felt the need to look elsewhere. Before they recommit to us, we have to prove to them that the old behavior is gone. We also have to prove that they will not have to pay from now until eternity for the mistake they made with the A.

It took me a long time to realize this. The first time my H cheated on me 6 years ago, he told me that it was not about OW, I didn't believe him. Now I know, it is true. It was about my anger, and his not being able to do anything right. Honestly, I think that as long as we want our M's to work, we will always have to Plan A them. Always put our best foot foward and always let them know by our actions that they are special.

So, this brings us back to the question of, how do we do this and not get the kids hopes up. I think that if you go, it will get their hopes up. They are kids. If she was not in a fog, she would see this. I also see this as an opportunity to be together and have a good time. Could you discuss it with the kids. Express your concerns with your wife in a calm rational manner. Tell her that you understand that this does not mean you are back together and that you would love to spend Christmas with the kids and you want her to spend Christmas with the kids. Express that you are concerned that the kids will get the wrong idea, and does she have any ideas on how to handle this.

How do you think OM will react when he hears you were there? I bet he will LB. Of course the men I've dated in the past would have told me "bye".

I see this as a good and bad situation. A good opportunity to Plan A, and for OM to LB. Bad if the kids get their hopes up and our disappointed.

I know if I was in her shoes (but I'm not in a fog). How do I say this without getting your hopes up. I would not ask you to go if I didn't want a chance for a future. Kids or no kids. It seems to me like she is trying to find opportunities to be with you and the kids as a family. She will not verbally admit to it. Why, she is afraid of being disappointed, being made to look the fool, hurt. I'm guessing on this one, but think her biggest fear might be that she will open up to you, trust you, and you will never let her forget about the A. You can tell her until you are blue in the face, or you can show her. Remember, talk is cheap, and actions speak louder than words.

(I know, I repeated myself throughout in different ways. Rambling is one of my less endearing traits)

I hope you and the kids have a happy Christmas.

<small>[ December 20, 2002, 10:05 PM: Message edited by: Sue with hope ]</small>

Plan B doesn't give you a license to love bust her either. Remember that God, the negotiator, can't reach her to come back to you, if you are sabotaging his efforts by love busting her.

Just wanted to say Merry Christmas to everyone

You are in my Christmas prayers

ayslyne

Hi Mortar,

I hope you and the kids had a good Christmas

Just a bit worried. Please check in if you can.

continuing prayers

ayslyne

I'm wondering if lack of posting indicates he went to Kentucky for Christmas.

Yes, let us know how you are.

Hi Mortarman,

Is all okay?

I am with you Sue...Mortarman where are you?