Happy New Year Orchid!

Thanks for the extra info about the situation. I, too, can relate to much of it.

Do you think C2M is suicidal? Severely depressed? Stuck? How do you think we can help?

Just an opinion--I think snl cares more than he lets on, but doesn't know what to do at this point. If he really wanted to be rid of C2M, fulfilling his financial obligations would certainly get that ball rolling. Also, he hasn't totally abandoned her, but right now C2M needs more than any one person can give. I suspect that apart from the financial issues, snl may be doing more than C2M can see right now but not putting his efforts where they would do the most good. What do you think?

How can we help them both? CAN we help them?

Hi Pepper, Nellie and YetAgain,

Pepper, please understand that I don't mean to hi-jack your thread but I did want to address YA's question. Also, I think answering here vs c2m's thread may be a better forum.

I will wait until you give the green light before I respond to Yet Again.

Thanks,
L.

gentle nudge..... up!

Post away ... I am done with the Nellie convo.

enjoy! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Mahalo Pepper!

Yet Again, in response to your questions:

1. C2m Suicidal? No I don't think so. She is a giver by nature and would feel to guilty about the person who would find her and have to clean up. Like many of us would think. Remember Tevy's wife on Fiddler on the Roof? They were forced to leave their home and she was sweeping the floors as they were moving out because she didn't want the new tennants to think she was a sloppy housekeeper!!!!

I can sure relate to that one!

2. IMHO, I believe C2m's big EN is reassurance. She knows how to get things done but often needs to be told it is appreciated. SNL can show his appreciation but he like many other of his 'gender' often get caught up in themselves. (sorry not meaning to be biased here, just calling what I seez - LOL!! ) Men from Mars mentality.

Now I see that SNL may be using that as a weapon. If you look closely, SNL shows her attention then when she starts to respond he pulls back with a vengence. Throws stuff back in her face and ultimately sets her back into a depressive mode.

The cycle continues until they are out of each other's sight. Now what we are not seeing is SNLs resposnes here but based on what I learned from him, that is my opinion. HIs actions back up those conclusions.

3. What can we do to help?
Continue to be supportive to C2m. Encouraging her to change her user name was good. She is posting to others and helping some. Sometimes she uses those repsonses to share her story or vent at SNL. Kinda touchy to those of us who know both but others do it also except we don't know their spouses as well.

Be postive in helping C2m move forward. Detaching is hard for her. They have been together a long time and she has been made to feel quite dependant on him.

I am not sure if he realizes that or not but I think he does keep that string quite taunt between them to the point that she always feels she has to be at his beck and call. (letting him in the house, his doing laundry there, eating meals there, visiting with the kids, comes and goes as he pleases.

I mean really, SNL like all have needs. Why not let others meet his needs? Not an easy task. One of which C2m does meet some of his important needs but the gratitude is below tolerance level.

IMHO, C2m needs evaluate where she is meeting his needs and determine how much of it should continue (due to family and business relations) and what should be stopped. The effect on the Ws is not the main issue. The BS' right to feel safe and respected is important.

JMHO of course.
Your input and others are greatly appreciated.

L.

Sorry if this comment is not appropriate here, but reading this thread, and the comments on victimization struck a chord with me. In my own struggle, I am trying to come to terms with my own co-dependency - something I find BrambleRose's posts very helpful with.

I have just finished a book which is the most helpful one I have found so far - some of you may already know it - called "Love is a Choice: Recovery for Codependent Relationships" by Dr. Robert Hemfelt, Dr Frank Minirth, and Dr Paul Meier. In the chapter on the roles people play (12) - he goes into some detail about the victim role - one comment struck me particularly - "This role is not to be confused with actual victimization. True victims usually do not perceive themselves as victims in this intensely self-pitying sense." He goes on to say, "Martyr, rescuer, persecutor, victim, enabler, placater, hero, lost child, scapegoat, mascot - these roles help codependents survive their family (of origin) and the members learn them well. When they are applied outside dysfunctional situations, as for instance, in employment, church, and friendships, they don't work...codependents are stuck with a twisted system of interpersonal relationships that cannot help them cope in the real world."

So far, I have found this book more helpful than any other in outlining clearly the dynamics in a codependent relationship, and in providing a clear plan for recovery. Speaking as a person involved in a marriage in which I have experienced both physical abuse and emotional abuse, I can testify to the difficulty that arises for the person being abused. Yes, she may be being victimized - no it is not her fault if her partner abuses her. Yes, her first step is to be able to step out of denial and confront the abuse for what it is. But she also has to ask herself some hard questions about why she continues to take the abuse, what she does to try to stop it, what she might even be doing subconsciously to encourage it, and whether or not it is even possible to disrupt or change the pattern of behaviour, or cycle of abuse. Continuing to complain over and over again that one is being abused and yet continuing to seek a relationship with someone who shows no sign of wanting to change is a big red flag. That's not to say that the pain the abused person is feeling is not huge, or not real. It is real, and it does hurt like hell, and it can drive someone to the brink of suicide. But only that person can decide they want out of this - and yes, that is a choice they can make. I am not trying to minimize the danger of real domestic violence.

What I am saying is that codependency is a vicious cycle in which both parties are trapped and will not be broken until at least one party begins the move to take responsiblity for how they are in the relationship. Hopefully, when one party moves in the direction of recovery, the other will follow. They may follow kicking and screaming, they may not follow. But one thing is for sure - that person who made the move to change will benefit - and victim need no longer be a role he/she has to play.

Just my 2 cents - speaking from experience - sorry to hijack, Pepper - ignore if not relevant.

Cheers.
LIR

Dear Red

Nice .... very heartfelt and also very smart.

Our brains have an amazing ability to creat an internal environment of attitude ... we can have emotionally stormy weather or mild sunny days ... all of our own choosing ... right inside our own head!

We can worry ourselves until our immune system takes a dump and we become sick ... we can also support our joyful thoughts and create a physical zone of tranquility and peace while everyone around us is spinning out of control.

We can learn to trust ourselves to endure hard times with an attitude that we can choose to emerge stronger, or smarter, or more spiritually awake!

Personal power is what YOU and I are talking about. Personal power and personal responsibility go hand in hand.

Thanks for your contribution! (I think Nellie was finished talking to me anyway)

Pepper <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

Hi LIR,

Well we certainly are digressing from the original intent of this post but Pepper is a gracious woman...... with that in mind I would like to respond that I have read your comments and appreciate your clear and concise comments about such a 'vague' topic (co-dependenancy).

I will check out that book for a lot of what you say makes sense. Now as to application...... not easy to say and even harder to do.

About those who try to drag this sad dependancy state into other parts of their lives.... well I have to say that many do try to pass their dysfunction to their work lives and even to friends but it does get pushed back quicker and in a more blunt fashion.

I realize that many of us take more than our share. I know I do and yet..... well I sleep better knowing I have done my best but feel bad that we have to suffer so much just to make a point and defend what is our right. Not that I am 'self-righteous' (as I have been accused of being) but it is not wrong to expect what is rightfully our own. I don't have to give that much of my life to others. I think some of us have that tendancy as givers.

Thanks for your input LIR.

L.

"But Pepper is a gracious woman"

LOL! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

I can take flattery and greasing .... don't be shy Orchid! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Our brains have an amazing ability to creat an internal environment of attitude ... we can have emotionally stormy weather or mild sunny days ... all of our own choosing ... right inside our own head! </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yep...where was it I read "sometimes you just gotta make your OWN sunshine"

Was that your quote Pepper/chocolate face??? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

hmmm...

I could say all kinds of long winded stuff about this thread....but I think my sig sums it up nicely.

Pain is a given, Misery is optional.

I choose to opt out on the whole misery thing, as do many others here. Those who opt-in can't be forced - they have a right to choose misery.

Pepperband, [QUOTE] [/QUOTEOur brains have an amazing ability to creat an internal environment of attitude ... we can have emotionally stormy weather or mild sunny days ... all of our own choosing ... right inside our own head!

We can worry ourselves until our immune system takes a dump and we become sick ... we can also support our joyful thoughts and create a physical zone of tranquility and peace while everyone around us is spinning out of control.

We can learn to trust ourselves to endure hard times with an attitude that we can choose to emerge stronger, or smarter, or more spiritually awake!

Personal power is what YOU and I are talking about. Personal power and personal responsibility go hand in hand.
]

The positive side of this is the person I was before my H had his A.I used to say that what doesn't kill you will make you stronger. A magnet on my frig for many yeras said "Do what you can, with what you've got, where ever you are."I have gone through hell with gasoline drawers on and come out without even the smell of smoke on me in some of the problems of my lifetime but this one has almost consumed me. That is why I am so frustrated with myself for not being able to handle this situation the way I have always been able to handle other problems I have encountered in the past years of my life. I told my H,before we married, that I would never tolerate infidelity in our marriage and that I was one who could let him go and move on if he ever chose that route.Instead I have become someone I do not know how to help.This is THE worst thing that has ever happened to me and something that I cannot seem to get past.I do not post a lot because I don't like to seem like a whiner or a victim.I do not see others here as whiners but I see myself in a different light because I have always been strong,positive and ok with myself. I appreciated the advice you gave me about my H not contacting the OW with a NC letter or call but I still have not found a way to be all right with no closure being placed on the PA. They still work in the same place and my trust is not rebuilt.

He still will not talk with me or answer my questions. He actually tells me to stop or to shut up.
I am thinking on this crap almost every waking moment but cannot talk to my H about it without him getting angry or upset. The amazing thing is, I was doing so great just before he came back. I did not know about the MB site and about NC demands before taking him back.The last DDay, he was on his knees,crying,begging,pleading and saying that he would quit his job,we would move back East,he would do anything,everything if I would take him back. She called 2 hours later and he would not even tell her it was over and that he wanted no more to do with her and stupid,in love with him,me let him stay! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" /> He was lying to me for months saying he was not having an A and after the first DDay,he swore he was not even talking to her,and after he left me he swore he was staying at a friends house and I caught him at her house.How can I believe him now?
My H always told everyone that he knew that if he had an A he knew he would be absent his "manhood" and alone. That sure has not been the case. I would appreciate anything you have to say to help.
I look up to you and look for your posts to others as I think you have the best advice given here.This is like high school and I am not one of the more popular ones here but you are the class president.You are short and brief and very selective with your answers and I have hoped everytime I post you would answer.I received wonderful responses from others that I appreciated.I know you are recovered and doing great and it is not something that one enjoys doing to post to those of us who are still struggling but you are more help than you realize.
One of my favorite sayings, from a female minister,Joyce Myers says "you can be pitiful or you can be powerful!" I try soooooo hard to be powerful,I swear I do.I am so afraid to let my guard down and trust. My H still says that his A had nothing to do with anything lacking in our M or with me. He has no real explaination but from the times he has talked,I get that he had some sort of sympathy or pity for her.She is a recluse and a basket case.I know.I talked with her!He says she was a weird person but I guess the 34DD attribute helped him get past that! I suppose he felt that she should know what it is like to be with a real,sexy,sensual,caring man before she dies! EGO! EGO!
I know what a wonderful,fullfilling,emotional and physical needs met, relationship we had before her.The da## thing makes no sense!

bramble rose that is soooo wise!!!! Reminds me of when life hands you lemons make lemonade, or every cloud has a silver lining, but I like your focus better, really makes it clear how we live life is a choice...in a way it is like choosing to hope.

I don't have any answers kk, but I hear you. You are facing your waterloo (napoleon reference), life is what you make it, so the answers to your question lie within. But maybe for starters you could consider what it is you are afraid of? What is so scarey that it knocked that "all together" woman off her tracks. She is still there, she is just knocked off her feet.

Thanks LurkingAbout. Hmmmmmm....What is it that I am afraid of? I need to think on that for a bit.
"Life is what you make it." You see, I always thought that too until I helped to make life a wonderful,stable,fullfilling,promising,"what dreams are made of" marriage with a wonderful,loving,fantastic man,doing everything possible and ever written in books to make sure we had a MB example lifetime together.Then the truck ran over me,coming out of nowhere! I know it is hard to believe that A's can happen in good marriages,especially in great marriages,but it happens.OK.So what am I going to do about the fact that it did not turn out like the fairytale books say.........what am I afraid of? I will think on this.Thank you. I truly qppreciate the encouraging words,too."She's still there.Just knocked off her feet." thank you for hearing me. I don't get that too often lately.It means a lot to me.You must have been class president at one time,too! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

KK .... I am thinking about all that you wrote ... I will post a response after more thought!

Take care...

Pepper