T-zero: oh how I would love to use that 2x4, but I know better. As I was reading your remark about making today about me and my values (and not about my H's rules), I was thinking maybe I'll just go show up there later today, looking beautiful, with a bottle of wine in hand, and maybe a love poem too....but I'm just daydreaming at this point.

The exact time of day when we were united in holy matrimony has come and gone, it's officially 7 years now. I'm amazed by my lack of tears so far today. Hopefully I can keep it up. But, I am watching the movie "Unfaithful", so who knows how long that will last. He was watching it on Dec. 24th when I dropped by the house. I have to know how the movie presents it all...it may be grounds for some good discussion between us.
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> You are a wonderful, growing person (what we should all HOPE to be), and he's preventing a glorious opportunity for the two of you to grow together from this awful experience.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I may just have to point this out to him later.

When you describe how destructive your wife's A has been for you and not for her, that is exactly what I'm afraid of projecting - that this hasn't been destructive for me too. That is part of why I let him beat me over the head with it at times.

Ayslyne: Thanks for your post. </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> These rules are pretty useless unless you both can define what benefit they offer your future</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yup, I coudln't have said it better. It's gotta be one of the next things we discuss.

Apparently, we can even live together again for up tp 45 days, and the original separation date isn't affected, the divorce can still take place one year after that. I got that info directly from a lawyer. I also found out that by sleeping with me, in the eyes of the law, my H has officially forgiven me, and can no longer seek a fast track divorce based on adultery.

I do wonder how much he's had to drink already...maybe his drunken state will keep him confined to the house, and make him easy prey if I feel like going over there.... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

JB

PS: I just found out that he is (well his family is, so he probably is) going out for dinner tonight with his grandparents. They always do this at this time of year, usually on Jan. 1st. I wonder if someone didn't intentionally choose today. That's like a slap in the face of sorts. Now I'm worried that he's going to be going out drinking with his brothers after that and I won't have a chance to go over to the house if I wanted to....I'm starting to feel desperate. This day is going to come and go without us seeing each other at this rate. Do I phone him?? They always go for an early supper...I may miss him if I don't find the balls to phone him soon, but i don't know what to say. I have no right to invite him to do anything, or I feel like I don't.... <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" />

<small>[ December 30, 2002, 04:32 PM: Message edited by: Jen Brown ]</small>

Jen,

think about it this way,

how did you act toward him when he fell in love with you.

did you ask for punishment? were you afraid that you couldnt ask for anything?

plan a isnt about Taking it at all, its about reminding the spouse who has withdrawn (usually ws in fog) why they were so in love with you.

so in your situation its about being active in introspection and self development so that there is visible and concrete change that the BS can put faith in, and a serious dose of remember me, Im still the girl you fell in love with!

so be the girl he remembers do the things you used to do.

part of him coming back to you will have to include seeing you as emotionally healthy and attractive, who wants a cowering imp for a wife??

dont think that you can make a relationship one way now and then change it later, that just doesnt work.

Jen - My 12th anniversary was yesterday. As a BS, I wonder if your H was thinking some of the things I was. I'll share my feelings not to pound on you, but maybe give you some insight.

We never separated, by the way, and our D-day first anniversary will be this weekend. Recovery has gone generally well, with lots of ups and downs, and I would say my wife is now farther along than I am.

Yesterday was not a good day. I was pretty depressed. I kept wondering, what are we celebrating? During the affair, before I knew about it, my W told me every chance she had that she didn't really want to get married and was sorry that she did. Also, the vows she took that day, she broke with her affair. And because the affair was such a deception, its hard for me to look back upon our joint memories fondly, because I feel like things were not the way they seemed to me.

We went to a movie last night and out to eat. When my wife pressed me on my silence / general moodiness, we got into a pretty good spat.

In a way, I wish we could pick some random date with no current meaning and make it our new "anniversary" for our new marriage -- the old one seems soiled.

I guess what I want to say is, if your H did not call you on your anniversary, it is not necessarily bad news. It may be a sign that he does not want to work on the marriage, or it may be that he, like I was, was just saddened by a day of looking back.

I hope this helps. God bless you.

Jen, yes, be the woman he fell in love with. You will have to make the choice but I suggest you go to him. You know him better than anyone. Your thoughts are showing that you have grown and you are stronger now than before. You want your M, you must go after it.

If he really loves you, he won't be able to resist you. Eventually his pride should melt and he will want you back.

Eventually, too, he will come to terms with the state of your M prior to the A. My H didn't realize how he contributed to the state of our M problems. I had contributed to the problems also. We had many very long discussions after the A. It's just too bad we didn't figure things out and also find this site before the A. I, too made a terrible choice but I'm living with it and being here helps me get wise advice on what to do next.

I'm sorry for your H's family planning the dinner around your anniv. Hopefully they did not do that intentionally. Your H has a lot of growing to do. You can still celebrate your anniv. with your H but you'll know if he can handle your prescence or not. I hope he stops punishing you.

Keep visiting.

Just checking in Jen...how did the night go?

ayslyne

Orginally posted by CHAZ
I'm not sure how to help but i just know of other WS who always feel the need to be punished as some kind of pennance for thier sins, or to keep themselves in-line

I was there for SOOOOO long. I have to be careful not to slip into that mode at times. I know that after last night, I don't plan to be treated that way or live like that. That is a powerful message Chaz, for many WS's, that is exactly how it is. Its a terrible way to live. I hope NO BS's respond with "You did it to yourself".

Peace to everyone
Zoey

My H showed up here a couple minutes before midnight, so he did come over on our anniversary. No romantic pleasantries, he's still stuck at the same point. He couldln't say anything nice, although he didn't say very much that wasn't either. So we're no furhter ahead than we once were. Oh well, I've got a new year's party to look forward to tonight, so I'm not going to let his indecision depress me today.

The road ahead is LONG and he's still miles from wanting to be with me.

I asked him about his rules (about how I'm not supposed to contact him) and why he needs them. He said he needs to be in control, deserves to be in control. I said "deserve"? What, am I a 2nd class citizen now? He said well, yeah, wait, well no, he just needs things to be this way right now, it's all he can handle. I asked him what positive outcome these rules can possibly have, and he said maybe I take you back eventually, maybe I don't.

We talked about lots of other stuff I can't be bothered to get into. Bad thing is after he left, I called him because I forgot to say some nice things I had wanted to say about our anniversary. He started chatting away about some non-relationship things, and mentioned an argument he had with his 2 female friends, and I said something rather snarky, managed to apologize, but then he hung up on me.

Oh well, I'm in a good mood today, and I'm not going to let his indecision ruin it.

Have a happy new year's everyone!

Jen

Happy New Year Jen

ayslyne

I was chatting with Zoey today, and got to thinking.

I am trying to Plan A my indecisive H, hoping it will make him come around and want to save our marriage. I am still stuck living by his rules of no contact, and only getting to see him on his terms, and only seeing each other for brief visits, which often include sex. I don't refuse his visits or advances, or invitations because that would go against a good Plan A. It would seem to work against trying to bring us closer together if I don't just see him on his terms whenever he is willing.

I know that this marriage will never be recovered if he never accepts any responisibility for the state of the marriage prior to the affair. He still feels that he did no wrong, and that I am the sole mistake maker.

At this point, I am beginning to wonder if I keep cow-towing (sp?) to his terms, and putting up with them, he will think I want to be with him no matter what; so he won't ever have to look at himself or his actions, and examine them, and realize he too had a hand in all this. I Plan A to the point where if he asks me why I think I had the affair, I just answer that I didn't use good judgement, I chose to have the affair, it was 100% my fault. I started doing that after being told that was what I should do by some wise MB oldtimers. I have stopped pointing out how I felt second place to his female friends, partly because it falls on deaf ears, and partly because I thought that it would go against a good Plan A.

I guess I'm back at my fear of letting him treat me like this now will make him think he can always treat me this way, with this little respect, etc.

Right now he is having his cake and eating it too -- he hasn't comitted to saving our marriage, he isn't living with me, I can't contact him, he gets to have sex with me regularly, and he gets to still be best buds with 2 females. I'm sure he'd be happy to let things continue this way for some time, especially if I allow it to.

Do I just let things continue as they are? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

Is this really all good? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />

Jen

PS: By the way, for those of you who questioned my commitment to my H and spending time with him over friends, when he called from nearby last night and asked if I was home alone, I lied, said yes, pushed my girlfriend out the door faster than you've ever seen, and he came over, and we spent some more time together.

<small>[ January 02, 2003, 10:38 PM: Message edited by: Jen Brown ]</small>

Jen - what are your thoughts about Plan B?

Yes, there's a role reversal from the "norm" here, but Plan B can be suited to your situation, IMHO.

Also, have you counseled with MB? - I can't remember, sorry.

WAT

Jen,

I have followed your story for a long while. I normally don't post because you get very good advice from more experienced MBers..

Let me start by telling you that, no matter if you are a XWS, you don't deserve this kind of treatment.
Yes, you did something terrible, you chose to do it. But holding the grudge and abusing you forever won't make your husband feel better or get over things if he truly loves you.

He needs to understand that life is short. Tomorrow you or he could be gone (and I hope this never happens), and then, what? All this time lost with the "You did, you said" attitude he has.

He is being incredibly disrespectful, angry and unfair. It is enough Jen. You need to set boundaries, just as a BS does when the WS will cake eat or be deep in the fog.

Your BS is so deep in the fog it surprises me he can even find his own feet to put on socks every morning.

Yes I was hurt by my husband. Yes I get angry still sometimes. After so many D-days, there is so much I can take. My husband was abusive, physically, psychologically, he made life hell. Do I feel the need to rub it in his face? Sometimes. Do I do it? Sometimes. Do I feel good after? Never.

If I ever make my husband cry by reminding him what kind of individual he was I feel like cr@p. I have told him that, whenever I get an angry outburst to hold me and look at me in the eye. Sometimes he smiles at me as he was madly in love with me, ignoring my angry words. That calms me down and makes me feel better. It helps me see that I need to chill and remain calm. That he is trying.

In your situation that may not be that easy. What I see is that that BS of you needs to get out of his "I am a victim" pity party fest and get on with it.

If he doesn't Jen, then I am sorry, but that is his loss. Everybody knows that misery loves company, don't let him drag you along into his spiral. You are there to help him out, not to go down with him and end up like a greek tragedy.

He needs to realize he is waaaay out of line on his own. He needs to figure out that his "Get out of any guilt by reason of infidelity" cards have run out.

Maybe a modified plan B is in order. Maybe a "I love you, I am more sorry than you would ever admit to know, but if I don't stop to contact you while you insist on treating me like vermin I'll be so depressed I will eventually kill myself, and I think I have a better shot at making it up for you being alive and actually happy".

Alright, end of my blabber.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Alostwife:
<strong>Maybe a modified plan B is in order. Maybe a "I love you, I am more sorry than you would ever admit to know, but if I don't stop to contact you while you insist on treating me like vermin I'll be so depressed I will eventually kill myself, and I think I have a better shot at making it up for you being alive and actually happy".

Alright, end of my blabber.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Jen,
as a BS I have had all the feelings your husband is having. My pride was hurt, feeling if I reconciled with my W I was a fool. Worried about how people who knew about the A would look at me. I also think in the case of your H, given your past EA's and now one that became a PA, he wonders if it could happen again.

Having said all that, I think you have demonstrated that you want your M to work, and that you realize your mistake. I don't think your H is being fair to you, despite all his concerns. Even though you messed up, you deserve better than this. I tend to agree with A Lost Wife, Plan B may be in order. At a minimum, I don't think he should be allowed to have his cake and eat it too. If he can't treat you like he loves you emotionally, don't let him expect physical love either.

Michael

Hi Jen,

I understand about your Plan A and I commend you for taking full responsiblity for your actions. But you are not giving him the entire reality. He will unlikely balk at any of the weight being on his shoulders but I think deep down it is something he grapples with. He doesnt want to face his shortcomings and he absolutely doesnt want to hear them from you. However you both need to be clear about your roles in the problems in your marriage.

No one lives in a vacuum least of all married people. So ofcourse what you did was a reaction to him. Now you both contributed to an atmosphere that presented these choices. Ultimately you made the choice to have the affair but you both lived lives that made these choices available.

You now know that you are more powerful. You would not make those same choices...no matter the circumstance. I do not think it would be outside of Plan A to explain that yes it was your choice but things were different...you were different...the way you chose to handle things was different. When he asks about why it would be beneficial to explain further that you had insecurities, sadness, anger and instead of finding some positive way to address those things with him you made other choices.

To use a simplistic example, and please take no offense but sometimes the ridiculous illustrates a point better than book smart psycho-babble.
If someone asked you "how did you make that cake" and you answered "I put the pan in the oven" that would be true but would the other person really understand how the cake got made. NO.

When he asks why it is true that is was your choice but that is not the whole story.

It may be possible to explain the full story to him without placing blame on him, as we all know he will not directly accept any...however he may begin to understand you and himself better.

I know when my husband began to realize all the pain he caused me I wanted no part of the blame for his actions but I wanted to understand what in his life, our life could have pushed him to his behavior. You see for me to understand why was power and security. If he told me you wore a blue shirt so I had an affair at least I would have the chance to decide whether or not I would wear a blue shirt again. The REASON is different than an EXCUSE. When he asks why you dont want to give him any excuses...because there plainly are none whether it be an unhealthy marital atmosphere or the color of his shirt...but there is a REASON. Your REASON will never EXCUSE the act and your not asking for that, you take responsiblity. But the REASON can help explain and communicate who you were, who you are, and who you can be to him.

Telling him the Reason is part of PLAN A. It is a kindness to help heal your marriage, give him the power/security understand that you understand. He is all about power. You made these choices because the situation was ABC. Now faced with similar circumstances you would do XYZ.

I never doubt your devotion to him. I commend your strength to be with him although I worry for your peace of mind. But like all of us we sometimes do not see clearly what our actions do to the ones we care about most. From the outside it is easier for us to say do this or do that or maybe he feels this or that...hindsight is 20/20 for everyone. I could not even begin to imagine what strength it takes to be intimate with him and then see him go. But I think you show great dedication to your marriage and his healing process by being with him. (Let's face it he has other options to have his base needs met...it is more than that to him even if he wont admit it to you or himself fully yet).

He told you about his rules. Juvenile as they may be he does have a point. He has a need to feel that he will never again allow his life to be derailed by anyone. He is in charge. He rules. Every BS feels at some level they let things happen...whether it is the feeling that they trusted when they shouldnt have or they contributed to a bad marriage we feel attacked and wounded. He never wants to be at anyone's mercy again. That is why the changes you have made in yourself are not making that big of an impact on him yet. He is still focused on self preservation. One way he feels safe is making things bad on you. I dont think he is calculated about it. In teaching you a lesson he teaches himself a lesson. He will never take it again.

Even as low as he has felt, as angry, and bitter, he cannot live without your presence in his life. You have every right to feel as you do about his poor treatment of you but try to see the positives of his inability to let you go. He has developed a stong passionate connection with you...he has never allowed that to grow into a full communatively funcitioning relationship but it is something he doesnt want to let go of. That connection with you is more than physical it is the only time he escapes the reality of the state of your marriage. You both cannot continue on that way forever. But I caution you not to be overwhelmed by negativity...his dirty secret is not that he is intimate with you...that is not dirty. His dirty secret is that he was not the husband he could have been so he missed out on the wife he should have had. He just needs to cross that bridge to understand that it is all still possible.

You understand him better than anyone...better than his brothers, or those two pitiful excuses for femininty he calls friends. You are his wife. You take on more of the burden now in this marriage for the good of you both...it goes that way sometimes in marriage. But you will know when you can no longer shoulder his share.

sorry so long,

best wishes always,

ayslyne

WAT - never done phone counselling with the Harleys. Stopped seeing my IC back in Oct. She just wasn't giving me any concrete things to do to save this marriage. Once we figured out that I had problems with boundaries, and developed some strategies for dealing with that, it felt like I'd gotten all I could out of her. I'm not wild about the idea of phone counselling, that I can't get covered. I am thinking I may look into getting a referral to another counsellor that I can get the fees covered for by work.

Alostwife: </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Let me start by telling you that, no matter if you are a XWS, you don't deserve this kind of treatment. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I don't know how to tell my H that I don't think I deserve this kind of treatment, and be sure that he will listen to me, or be sure he won't say "yes you do." I would actually bet that if I told him that, he'd say it isn't a question of me deserving this treatment or not, it's just all he can handle right now, or all he is capable of.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">He is being incredibly disrespectful, angry and unfair. It is enough Jen. You need to set boundaries, just as a BS does when the WS will cake eat or be deep in the fog. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This is what I am currently realizing, but I feel like I can't tell him this or it may drive him away. Or he won't care to listen. Or he'll say it isn't disrespectful, what I did was disrespectful, (he'll just turn it all back on me again). How do I dare to tell him I feel that way and actually get him to listen to me???

Don't suggest to write him a letter, he still hasn't opened the xmas card and letter I wrote him. He says he doesn't want to get depressed on purpose, so he won't read it.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Maybe a modified plan B is in order. Maybe a "I love you, I am more sorry than you would ever admit to know, but if I don't stop to contact you while you insist on treating me like vermin I'll be so depressed I will eventually kill myself, and I think I have a better shot at making it up for you being alive and actually happy". </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">The only reason why I can't bring myself to do this is as follows: I don't want to ever come off as pushing him away. I wouldn't be able to live with myself. I want to always be the one willing to work on things, and let him be the one to push me away, let him be the one to say "I can't do this", let him be the one to file the divorce papers. I refuse to let him pigeon-hole me into pushing him away. I want him to live the rest of his life knowing he could have had me, I would've done anything for him, but he walked away (if he does).

MichaelinDallas: </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> If he can't treat you like he loves you emotionally, don't let him expect physical love either.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Again, how do I tell a deaf man this? His response, I am fairly certain, would be that he doesn't love me, and that he won't ever love me again. (He's already said those exact words to me.) He said that if he ever gets together with anyone ever again, including me, that he will just be settling.

ayslyne: Thanks for the advice about how to explain the why and how of my affair to him in terms he may listen to, or at least be more willing to listen to. The analogies really helped to make sense of it all. </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Even as low as he has felt, as angry, and bitter, he cannot live without your presence in his life. You have every right to feel as you do about his poor treatment of you but try to see the positives of his inability to let you go. He has developed a stong passionate connection with you...he has never allowed that to grow into a full communatively funcitioning relationship but it is something he doesnt want to let go of. That connection with you is more than physical it is the only time he escapes the reality of the state of your marriage. You both cannot continue on that way forever. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">EXACTLY. I take the positives of what he is willing to give me, and it keeps me going, it keeps me allowing myself to see him in the brief and limited way he allows me to. I try to have faith that he will come around and allow more. But as you remarked in the last sentence above, we both cannot continue on that way forever. But I don't know how to get us out of that cycle.

I guess I can ask him what it would take. I think I have asked him. I think his answer was that he didn't know, and all he knew was this is all he can handle at this point, and he doesn't know if that will ever change. He's passively waiting for something in his heart to change I guess.... </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You are his wife. You take on more of the burden now in this marriage for the good of you both...it goes that way sometimes in marriage. But you will know when you can no longer shoulder his share. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">How will I know?

I guess part of what drives me crazy is so many of my family and friends keep asking me how long I am going to wait for him to decide what he wants. I figured I should wait until the 1 year waiting period for a divorce comes up. I have even told him this (that people have been asking, and that that was my answer). I told him that he is worth waiting for. BUT HERE WE GO AGAIN... he thinks he can just keep me in a holding pattern for that long, and not change the way he treats me, since I was dumb enough to tell him that was my limit.

AARRUGHH!! I just don't know what to do. I am stuck between a)being afraid that if I stand up for myself and tell him how I'm feeling, and demand better (plan B), I'll lose him, and b)really not feeling very good about myself letting him treat me as he does. Not to mention the fact that I am still viciously jealous of how his 2 female friends get all the parts of him that I miss and want (friendship, willingness to go out and do fun things, they can call him, they can give and receive xmas gifts with him, etc.).

I still don't know what to do. Sorry to be such a whiny indecisive baby myself.

JB <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />

PS: I just reread my post before hitting the "add reply" button to check for errors, and you know what I realized? I realized that I still feel like I did prior to the affair. He either doesn't listen to me, or he minimizes what I have to say, or tells me that I am wrong and he is right. WHICH IS WHY I TURNED TO OM IN THE FIRST PLACE..... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" />

<small>[ January 04, 2003, 12:15 PM: Message edited by: Jen Brown ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Jen Brown:
<strong> I realized that I still feel like I did prior to the affair. He either doesn't listen to me, or he minimizes what I have to say, or tells me that I am wrong and he is right. WHICH IS WHY I TURNED TO OM IN THE FIRST PLACE..... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" /> </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">ahhhh finally the truth!!!!

this is the reality he needs to hear, what is true for you is important to your success.

do not abandon yourself in this process, it was weakness that allowed you to make such a horrible mistake, dont be weak now!

turn to your spouse instead of away from him

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Jen Brown:
<strong>Again, how do I tell a deaf man this? His response, I am fairly certain, would be that he doesn't love me, and that he won't ever love me again. (He's already said those exact words to me.) He said that if he ever gets together with anyone ever again, including me, that he will just be settling.

</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Jen,
I would ask myself, did he mean what he said. I know with me, even at my lowest, I never doubted my love for my wife, and never told her I did not love her. I did doubt if I could stay married to her. However, I suspect he was just blowing off steam when he said those words. I do think you should sit down with him, and ask him. Tell him you need to know if he still loves you. I think you deserve to know that much, and you deserve an honest answer.
Michael

I agree with Chaz. He needs to hear the truth of the way the marriage was. The way you both were.

You will know when that time is when you simply cannot go forward any longer the way you are. You couldnt take the way things were in your marriage when you got involved with the other man. You may not have realized it but you were done with the way things were. You made a choice to change things albeit for the worse but you couldnt cope any longer. You are stronger now. You will know the moment when you truly cannot go through the torment anymore. Be aware that it will happen. You need to know that you have a breaking point...like chaz said turn towards him not away. He may not want that or be ready for that but he wont be ready for your nervous breakdown when he leaves you in the middle of the night draining you emotionally for the last time. It would be better for you to tell him before you hit that point. Tell him you are going to do what you should have done then-act like his wife regardless of how he tries to emotionally divorce you. You still are his wife. Right now he doesnt believe in love or happiness. Healing is hard. There is no magic only patience, perserverance, and faith.

Best wishes,

ayslyne

<small>[ January 04, 2003, 07:41 PM: Message edited by: ayslyne ]</small>

Jen,

This is going hard for me to do. I know it is going to sound as if I am attacking you and am down on you. Please understand that I am not. However, I think you have somethings a little wrong here. In order to set them right YOU are going to have to face some hard choices, Yes YOU have to make choices.

You said </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">The only reason why I can't bring myself to do this is as follows: I don't want to ever come off as pushing him away. I wouldn't be able to live with myself. I want to always be the one willing to work on things, and let him be the one to push me away, let him be the one to say "I can't do this", let him be the one to file the divorce papers. I refuse to let him pigeon-hole me into pushing him away. I want him to live the rest of his life knowing he could have had me, I would've done anything for him, but he walked away (if he does). </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You have missed a big point. He doesn't know he could have had you. His biggest fear is that he will never have you. You say you are afraid to push him away. YET...

you have had three affairs on him. Two EA's and a PA with his best friend.

Don't you call that pushing him away?

I think you need to stop all of this and ask yourself do you really want to be married to him? Your actions previous to him catching and watching you have sex with his best friend would indicate that you do not want to have him as a husband. What has changed?

His controlling behavior is driving you nuts. Yet, you can see why he wants to protect himself. It is clear he loves you, but he DOESN'T believe you love him. He suspects, just as the quote I used suggests, that you want him to be the bad guy.

Jen, it is time for a new approach. It is time for you to speak up about the way he treats you and be brutally honest with him. But, you need to be brutally honest with yourself. I am not sure you really love this man. I suspect you just feel really guilty for getting caught and what you have done. He doesn't know "he could have you." He never "had you before."

How could he change so that he could confident that you wouldn't do that again? He needs to hear from you about how you feel about his treatment. He may not like it. He may decide to leave, but remember he has the same 1 year time limit you have. Also remember one other thing he does love you or he wouldn't be fooling around like this. He would be gone and filed.

Frankly, he has his issues and clearly he wasn't a husband that you loved or respected. He knows this. He is acutely aware of his failings and that you preferred several other men to him. This also suggests that you have issues. You married a man and didn't repect him nor your marriage. Now all of a sudden you are willing to walk through fire to keep him. Why?

Do you see the problem? You are still unclear on the concept although you want to retain your marriage. You haven't made a good arguement here as to why. Most people here are delighted that you want to, it is romantic that you want to, but the rubber meets the road as to why? Your H more than anyone needs to understand why you now want to try. But, first you need to understand what has changed in your thinking about your H and why.

I could say more, but the phone is ringing and I must answer it. I apologize if this hurts you, I know it is harsh, but the harsh fact is things are a mess and some solid hard thinking needs to take place.

I would strongly suggest that you set your boundaries with him. You need to push him away if you don't like the way he is. You would have been much kinder to have done this to start with rather than have all of the A's.

I hope I have given you somethings to think about.

God Bless,

JL

Gosh things really seem to be coming to a head for me.

I am realizing I must tell my H exactly why I think I had the affair, and include what I didn't feel I was getting from him. I need to be blunt and honest about how the way he treats me makes me feel, and about what I think I need from him in the future if this is going to work(thanks ayslyne and Chaz.)

Instead of feeling all lovey-dovey and lonely for him, over the past couple of days I've been angry at him again, since I realized that he still minimized everything I think and say, and treats me like a 2nd rate human being since I cheated on him.

If you haven't read Zoey's latest post, please do. She has spent the past 3 years working her tail off to be the model FWS, trying so hard to be a better wife, to save her marriage. However, her H is still throwing the EA in her face, and won't let her forget it! So she has moved out, she is done with it all.

Here's a quote from my post to her:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I wonder if I should even be bothering to try to save my M. My H regularly throws my As in my face, and makes me feel like I do not deserve to be treated like his equal, ever. Yes, it's only been 7 months, but still. He is "better" than me. He has said to me one of the reasons why he wanted a separation in the first place was because he didn't see how he wouldn't throw this in my face for the rest of my life. Everything happens for a reason, our paths have crossed for a reason, and I am going to have to do some serious thinking I guess.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I worry that based on how I’ve handled things so far, I’ve sent my H the message that I am still completely devoted to him, and want nothing but to save my marriage. That’s true, but I fear that my H thinks that he can treat me however he wants and I’ll still want nothing but to save this marriage and be with him. That’s why he keeps asking me (well, he’s asked twice now) if I’d still want him back if he had sex with either of those female friends. That’s why he made up that whole story about dating some girl and having sex with her, to see if he could get away with it and still have me all desperate and needy for him. The abuse has already started perhaps…..I have to make my needs and boundaries clear to him soon.

I work with a woman who is married to a man who left his first wife after he cheated on her. He realized early on that she’d never be able to let him forget about his affair, she’d never be able to completely forgive him, so he left her, so she could move on and find someone she could trust. That tale rings in my ears right now.

I know I need to try my best, try everything before I give up, or move on, so I can be at peace. But my optimism is waning quickly. I feel like I’m at some sort of a crossroads here I tell you……

JB

PS: Ayslyne - can you edit out my H's name from your post? I've deleted it from mine. Please folks, don't use his name in your posts, I'd rather keep him anonymous. I know he'd flip if he knew that you folks know so much about him.

<small>[ January 04, 2003, 12:23 PM: Message edited by: Jen Brown ]</small>

Jen, I just posted this on Zoey's thread, but I figured it was just as applicable here...

You may have already seen this, but it's from a Q&A article here on MB. In it, Dr.H talks about how HE'D reply to an abusive ex-BS, and I absolutely *LOVE* his wording!!!

"What she describes to me in her letter is abuse, pure and simple. There is no excuse for the way her husband keeps bringing up her moment of weakness she experienced years ago. He is disrespectful and abusive.

I suggest that she look him right in the eye and say to him, "Listen Buster, do you love me? Do you want me to love you? Do you want to spend the rest of your life with me? If the answers to any of those questions is 'yes' you sure are going about it the wrong way. You are not doing things that I admire, you're doing things that I find disgusting!"

What if he says, "Fine, then lets just get a divorce and end it all."

To that I would say, "It's up to you. I married you for life, but if you want a divorce, it's your call. If you want to be in a love relationship with me, however, you're going to have to treat me much better than you have been treating me. You must never again bring up my affair, and if you are upset with me, you will have to treat me with respect until we can solve the problem. If you are upset with our sexual relationship, I want us to discuss it as adults and solve it with mutual respect. I refuse to be treated like this, especially by the man I love."