Originally posted by Keepmvn4wrd:
<strong>quote:

"I don't understand why he feels the need to leave in order to give me a chance."

Give you a chance?????? He should feel lucky that you MAY give him a chance.... You catch him in his underwear with another woman and you are worried about what YOU did wrong?????</strong>

Mimi, Km4fwd is right. He owes it to you not visa versa. Now many a WS think they can control the BS and often we let them. Just by what you are saying your H is doing shows plan A is not working for you. Now Wat and others may disagree with me but your H's actions sound a lot like what I went through. For me I got a better and more respected reaction with plan B.

Realize this, plan B is no guarantee to win him back. In fact it is not a plan to win him back. Why? Do you really want him back as is? He is a broken H. Not qualified right now to be an H with his anger and A raging on. So don't try to win that character back.

No, look to win back a good H and a bad WS. What??? BAd WS? That's right a bad WS is a Good H. Remember that.

<strong>Here is what I think you should tell him.. And I think it is what WORKS the best of anything that can be done....

Tell him that you have done some thinking, and that you agree that maybe he needs some time alone to sort things out.. then tell him this.... that you also need some time to sort things out... that maybe it would be for the best if he left. Maybe we should spend some time apart....

Do it firmly, confidently and yet respectfully.
Act as if you are happy about the chance to see what life has in store for you. If he wants to have her, then fine, but you cant have me too........

You will respect yourself much more this way. You seem to be leaning this way and I want to encourage you to follow through..... </strong>

This is true and worked for me. Now it might not work for all but it will command respect. However, you need to be prepared if he takes this as a reason to run. If so, don't feel bad, more than likely he was already preparing to run. The WS and OW make many plans and often it includes fooling the BS into thinking recovery is in the making. I intercepted several e-mails where they actually planned what the WS would say to me. Go figure!!!

That is when I realized that their relationship was based a lot on conversations and strageties about how to foil the BS. That is when I became to use their own devices against them. I learned the babble back technique and would make 'wondering statements'. Enough to put doubt into both minds. For me that allowed the OW (who by the way was and is a bit psyco) to act paranoid. Is that what I wanted? Of course!

Hey, it is a free country. Raising legitimate doubts is good for the thinking mind. Especially when they are based on facts. I did my personal research gathering of info on both of them. So when I threw out tidbits of doubt, they had legitimate sources. Not all the conclusions were accurate but I wasn't making the conclusions, the WS was...... or the OW was..... looking back, it was funny to watch them scramble not realizing they had been had by similar tactics.

Those in the fog are none too smart, they just think they are and sometimes [/qb]

<strong>I can see that this man does not think you have a backbone because of the comment he made about you not throwing your son out.. He is doing the same thing now to you....

When he contacts you... just be nice, pleasant,and upbeat,Act like you are going somewhere with your new life.... Do not ask him ONE question about your relationship or what he is doing. Just be polite and let him be the one to get curious about what YOU are up to and what YOU are thinking. </strong>

This is easy to say but hard to do. It often requires a full readjustment of the BS' mindset. Most spouses share info with each other. Now that there is a 3rd leg, it becomes awkward. Realize that the WS shares many intimate thoughts with the OP. That is what fuels the A.

Now realize that you can use their most important tool (communication) against them to work on breaking up their A without you lifing a finger. Sounds too good to be true? Well it can work. It takes planning, research, praying for a clear mind and a calm heart. Also the BS needs to learn NOT to give the WS all their plans or details. Usually the OW wants to keep tabs on what the BS is doing. Feed a line or 2 that the Ws will take back to the OP about you. Then turn his word upside down....... Nothing big.... could be something like you say you like purple so the OW goes and buys a purple coat but in reality you hate purple and your favorite color is blue..... You get it and act happy...... then mention how sick that purple coat looks.....sounds like something dumb an OW would wear..... imagine if that got back to an OWs ear - LOL!!!

Just a suggestion. My example is how the OW wanted to 'buy' both her and WS a motorcycle. She claimed to have ridden cross country on one and could even drive it. Hm.... funny ...... then she claimed she needed to learn how to drive one. Hm..... you gotta wonder.

Well WS loves bikes..... guess who finally went with him on his first Harley ride!! Yep me..... no OW, just plain ol' me. She sure didn't like that..... then there is the golf lesson thing. You see ???

<strong>The greatest error people make when trying to save a relationship is to reveal way to much information about what they are thinking...</strong>

A great statement.... remember this line.

[qbWork on yourself while he is away... Maybe wondering if he made a mistake, maybe wondering if you would take him back......

That is what happens most often in the mind of the wayward spouse when you let them go and stop all pursuit..[/qb]

Very true. IMHO, more so when the WS is the H.

<strong>We also know by the many threads on this site, that Plan A rarely works to get them back.. And if they do come back, there are months and months of agony and pain... Look at many of the wayward spouses on here who are now trying to get the former left person back.... Notice the common thread of what happened in these situations.... The betrayed person got a life without the betrayer and decided that they too, had choices about where the relationship would head..... Interesting..........</strong>

So this is one viewpoint and second by another. No guarantees. Right now all your choices are taking a chance. But then again so our a lot of our choices in life.

Just do it with a clear mind and be prepared to live with the consequences.

JMHO,
L.

Mimi,

I am not saying that you do a plan B... You can still be in contact with my plan... He justs needs to see that your attitude has changed from desperation to confidence... From talking about saving the relationship and how much you love him, to a quiet confidence that you are ok no matter what happens......

The reason I tell you these things is because of the success I see in relationships when these things are applied.... Are there any guarantees? of course not... there are no guarantees in anything that you do......BUT....

I have had the opportunity to be involved in helping 4 relationships get turned around in the past year.... 3 are back together.... the other one
could have had her ex. back , but chose not to.... he is still calling and wants her back.....

What did they do? Exactly what I told them....

3 of the 4 are women.... I told them the same thing I am telling you.... All 3 told me the same thing that I always hear..." Oh he will never come back if I let him go and agree with him" "My man is different, he is stubborn".

Well they were wrong.... Just as others are wrong on here that say to just let this go on and not rock the boat...

The first woman I helped had not heard an I love you in over 3 years... He has since changed his tune... Why? She told him that he was right, maybe they both needed space... maybe this isn't working, maybe I need some time to sort things out....About 3 weeks later he told her he loved her for the first time in 3 years, sorry he had not said it, sorry he had been wishy washy.... etc..... she told him it was too late...

2nd woman... 1-1/2 years of her man going back and forth with her or another woman... He told her he wanted to break up.... she asked me what to do...

Now of course I could have said "do plan A" and of course it is possible that it could have worked, but I really don't see a whole lot of evidence that it works better than what I told her... I told her to agree with him, yes, I think we should break up, maybe this isn't going to work..... she called me everyday about 10 times.... she wanted to call him... wanted to drive by... I told her to hold the line.. after 4 days he called... she acted upbeat and happy.... etc. etc. etc....

he ended up BEGGING her to take him back and ended it with the other woman to prove to her that he was serious.........

#3 was a carbon copy of the past 2.... same advice... same results.... they are back together....

the man is one I work with... his wife left him.... same story as hundreds of others on here.... he asked me what I thought he should do.....

I told him the same thing I tell people on here all the time... Act perfectly happy just the way things are.. be a happy person.. when she contacts you just be upbeat and pleasant and ask nothing about the relationship... let her think that maybe this is what YOU want.....

2 months later she called him wanting to come home and says she is sorry.... he calls me and says he can't thank me enough..... I told him these were things I have discovered about relationships that work and get results..... Simple concepts, but very, very effective.... You can call it Plan A or Plan B or put any name on it you want to..... The main thing is it WORKED.... SO, you can stick to Plan A or whatever you are doing.... I don't think it is working that much... You are feeling nothing but pain... get out of the pain..... release him... and then watch the results....

And even more importantly, these people all felt better about themselves because they showed the other person they respected themselves enough to let them go.... When the other person started to show them respect back, it was eye opening to them....
think about it.....

mimi - how are you doing?

Let me make sure I have not miscommunicated what Plan A is, because I believe Keepmvn4wrd may unwittingly be confusing you. He/she is correct that he/she does not understand Plan A.

Disclaimer: much of what Keepmvn4wrd is advising may be effective for anybody to present a confident attitude towards a WS. And this is consistent with Plan A.

It is vital to understand that you DO NOT Plan A a WS. Plan A is NOT a manipulative tool intended to end an affair, control a WS, or otherwise affect ANYBODY other than the person implementing Plan A.

The premise of Plan A is that the BS played a role in establishing the poor marital environment that preceded the affair AND - just as important - the BS can do NOTHING to end the affair.

Some of what Keepmvn4wrd advises may be good stuff to keep from making the affair worse, i.e., to keep from further pushing the WS away and to present a strong personna - not unlike Divorce Busters "180" - but it does nothing to correct the root of the marriage problems. Plan A does.

Maybe his advice has succeeded in bringing couples back together, but this is only the beginning of affair recovery. Unless old behaviors are corrected, couples are left with the old marriage - destined for another affair.

Very simply, Plan A takes a passive approach to ending the affair - in recognition that the BS cannot accomplish this - and instead motivates the BS to fix their portions of the problems in the meantime, all the while meeting whatever ENs they can.

My major disagreement with Keepmvn4wrd is the "throw him out" attitude. Yep, it might work sometimes - doing nothing works sometimes. But it implies that the BS has no ownership of the problems and, as a result, potentially prevents you from acknowledging your problems and, in turn, demonstrating your changes.

WAT

Good Morning--this is my update:

First of all I made a decision that I was going to work on being the "best person I can be" to begin working on the only person I can control at this point which is me. Sounds like a PLAN A to me but I am just learning this lingo. This feels like what is best for ME to do at this point. This also fits somewhat with KEEPMVN's philosophy because my goal is to be CONFIDENT not DESPERATE.

My WS came home late last night. However, he came straight from his office where he had been periodically calling me during the evening. The OW was at home. I know all this to be true;live in a small town; I can easily do detective work; that's another story. Anyways, when he came home there was NO talk about separation. I was thinking that this may be due to some real concerns he has about the financial consequences of separation. However, given my new philosophy, I can't really be sure about his reasons and should focus on my financial security which is best if he does not leave.

We did not discuss anything. No LBing. I did decide to sleep in the bed with him. Mainly because I really needed to try to get some rest and could do that best in my own bed. TAKING CARE OF MYSELF--since I haven't been eating and sleeping well. My therapist says that my body functioning should be a major focus at this point. I have to be healthy enought to work (I'm off this week) and to take care of my children.

My WS SEEMED to like the idea that I slept in the bed. He SEEMED sincerely APPRECIATIVE (?) that I volunteered to set the clock which has been our ritual over our 26 year marriage; he may have missed that over the past few nights. No real intimacy but I felt some need of his to connect with me. I'm not sure if I'm reading to much into this but it hasn't FELT BAD.

This morning he has been doing his typical routines. He folds clothes ,cleans the kitchen,etc. These are wonderful things about him as a H that I have not voiced my appreciation of. When I woke up this morning, early with him (another thing that he likes that I haven't been doing), I told him about my PLAN to focus on myself, being the best person that I can be --as a woman, wife and mother. I reiterated my understanding of the pain he expressed yesterday over his unhappiness with both his job and homelife and feeling he had nowhere to turn for happiness and comfort. I told him how much appreciated all that he has always done and expressed my regret over not openly stating this. I ALSO, however, stated that continuation of contact with the OW would not be tolerated by me as long as he stays at home.

He grumbled mildly over some DISRESPECTUL behaviors of the children. Specifically, he complained of their peeing on the toilet bowl, not refilling th soap container and not cleaning the tub. You see, my H is a compulsive,neatnik and the children are not sensitive to this. I responded in calmly explaining that I cannot control these particular behaviors of theirs but that I would see that their disregard does not continue and that the bathroom would definitely be cleaned.

When he left, I told him that I still loved him and he said HAVE A GOOD DAY--no talk about plans to leave. I'm planning to wait until he brings it up again.

I'm just trying to remain calm, get myself together and I'm taking it slowly. I have my moments of remembering the scene of him at that motel room and seeing a picture of the OW; she is scary too me. She's seems so brazen-looking, from the other side of the tracks. We are certainly of a different class than she is, not that that makes us better but I guess I'm seeing her as a rough and tough, gold digger type. My H is not in her league in terms of worldliness and I can see how she may have him under her spell if he wants to play around with the dark side of life.

I'm somewhat concerned that there maybe some sort of scheme going on as KEEPMVN states but I'm not sure about the reason for it or what it could be. Also I'm getting a little anxious that I'm being setup to be made a fool of again. I'm 99% sure that my WH does not want a scene again like at the motel. However, tonight is Friday night and I think it has typically been their night. We'll see what happens.

Let me know what you guys think about this.

Good job, mimi.

Just be careful with the "continuation of contact with the OW would not be tolerated by me as long as he stays at home" stuff. By all means, set boundaries, but what are you gonna do if contact continues? Kick him out? OK, but just make sure you get a chance to demonstrate your Plan A changes first - then when you can tolerate no more, kick him out and go to Plan B.

Again, good job. The only thing that raised my eyebrows was the "peeing on the toilet bowl, not refilling the soap container and not cleaning the tub." Boys, right? Well, as a father who trained two sons how to aim, some of this is expected, right? But how old are they? How much do they help with chores? Refilling the soap is pretty fundamental, isn't it? Yes, there are extremes of "neatness," but there's also reasonable responsibilities. Please keep an open mind regarding whether the boys are pulling their weight.

You sound better.

WAT

WAT,
My not making the boys fulfill responsibilities has been a major problem. They are really resisting on this and almost seem to be defiantly not wanting to comply, wanting us to separate so they can really have me to themselves. Furthermore, they have a pretty good idea that my H has been unfaithful; doesn't take a rocket scientist. They see themselves as helping by continuing to be disrespectful to Dad. Difficult, huh? Any thoughts? I'm struggling with this particular issue which is a BIG one and a MAJOR one.

Mimi, beautiful job!! Well said, rational with no love busters. I agree with WAT that you don't want to throw him out. It's a two-edged sword drawing much needed boundaries, but you don't want to throw him *INTO* the arms of the OW by kicking him out.

Why does he continue to come to YOU about problems with the kids and not to them directly? I get the feeling that he does not feel like he is part of the family and is lacking any respect for his authority. Some of the things he complains about sound more like CONTROL issues framed in petty complaints than genuine grievances.

I also suspect that he scared himself a little with his threat of separation. When reality set in and he realized he might have to make good on his threat, it seems to have scared him a bit. That is why you sensed his relief and gratitude about mundane things [simple things that represented acceptance] like setting the clock.

Have you considered asking him out for dinner or a special date tonight?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by mimi1254:
<strong>WAT,
They are really resisting on this and almost seem to be defiantly not wanting to comply, wanting us to separate so they can really have me to themselves. Furthermore, they have a pretty good idea that my H has been unfaithful; doesn't take a rocket scientist. They see themselves as helping by continuing to be disrespectful to Dad. Difficult, huh? Any thoughts? I'm struggling with this particular issue which is a BIG one and a MAJOR one.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This is a major problem that can tear apart a family. It is really important that you start backing your H up and making those kids respect his authority. It is a bad thing for kids to devide and conquer a set of parents. It is bad for them, bad for the parents. I wonder if this is why your H makes huge deals out minor things?

Mimi, can you please get into counseling? The Harley's [who operate this website] have a very successful telephone counseling service that many use here. They use MB principles and can be of enormous help. Even if your H won't participate for now, it would be a great help to you. Espeically in supporting your H in regaining some authority in his own home.

Wow, yes, difficult.

How old?

If they're old enough to understand he's being unfaithful, they're old enough to understand that you DO NOT think they're helping by resisting. Guess you gotta set some boundaries when them, as well.

But look at it this way: they are gonna learn by your actions that people make mistakes and mistakes can be solved. No one is perfect. There are several silver linings to this cloud that you can take advantage of. It is not easy and we're pulling for you.

WAT

My boys are 20 and 16. Its very true that he has not felt like part of the family. He has openly stated his pain about this. It seems that he has to do his part to come back in. He is really alienated and distanced from the children and does not know how to establish a relationship with them. This comes from his past as he does not have a relationship with his parents; in fact, they currently are not speaking. What can I do about the relationship with the children if anything? What can I do at this point to help him feel part of the family?

About dinner-date night. When I was in my previous PLAN A. This seemed to really scare him for some reason. He said he had to "get his head together"; he wasn't "ready" for this. I can't put my finger on the exact reason for this. I have assumed that she has threatened to make a scene if she sees me with him; we've discovered how he hates scenes OR is he really trying to be true to her and not allow himself to slip into relationship with me again. Also, I recall the last time I asked him about going out, he stated angrily, "Why do you want to do it now (i. e. when it may be too late) and you didn't want to go out with me in the past; you were always too busy with the kids." He stated yesterday ( you see I'm trying to listen) that he is reluctant to share his "vulnerability" with me, scared to open up his heart to me, because he thought that I "didn't care about him" because of the inattention. This is so surprising to me because I guess you guys have figured out how much I still "care about him".

Thanks for the tidbit about not throwing him out. I'm pretty sure she is pressuring him to leave. He seems to want to carry on with her without the drama of the motel scene and does not know how he can do this without separation. However, having been married 26 years, together 30 years, I know my H well enough to know that the mundane things you speak of are very important to him. He expressed yesterday his concerns about being "alone" in a small apartment without his "things".

I also have to admit that I have really not been backing my H up as required with the children. The problem now, it seems, that he wants EXTREME demonstrations of my support of him and then the children see me as being bizarre and nonauthentic. Such as my H keeps saying he wants to "throw my 20 year old out of the house" because he talked back to him which he did so very rudely and awfully. But "throw him out"?

I'm going to look into the counseling with Harley. Thanks

Mimi,

Do you think your H has contributed to this problem with the children by relinquishing all authority to you? He defers to you in matters of authority over the children and then complains that he has no authority. It sure seems that way when he complains *TO YOU* about problems with the boys, instead of taking matters into his own hands. That has led to a power struggle in your marriage that should not be there in the first place.

Would it help to tell him that you see that the boys do not respect his authority [that actions on both your parts has led to this]And that you understand that this has to change and will help him by presenting a united front. Maybe suggest that from now on, you will both discuss and come to an agreeement about the best way to approach descipline issues and that he will be the one to approach the boys?

I just think your acknowledgement of the problem and a willingness to resolve the problem might go a long way in relieving some of his anxiety. I know it is a big risk because you do not trust his judgement, but if you agree to NEGOTIATE such issues, you still have a hand in it.

And you would also reserve the option to step in if you saw that he was going to harm the boys. Because you can't sacrifice your children for you marriage, and would have to protect them if need be.

Lastly, I wanted to tell you that your situation reminds me so much of my previous marriage. I was married for 20 years and had 2 boys. I was the seat of power in the marriage and undermined my H for 20 years. He left me for an uneducated, rough-talking, hard drinking older woman who made him feel like a "man." [she is a house painter with a high school education and I am a Key account exec for a bev company with a college degree] I quickly love busted myself to a divorce and have since remarried. {I didn't know about marriagebuilders back then] I read many parallels in our situations, especially being the authority figure when it comes to your children. I learned the hard way that is a fast way to destroy a man's self esteem.

<small>[ January 03, 2003, 11:23 AM: Message edited by: MelodyLane ]</small>

It's really tricky, but I don't recommend Plan B for you at this time. How long have you done Plan A for? I do think it's important to do a Plan A. I wouldn't rush into a separation. And before a separation it's good to get legal advice. Tell your H that you will want a separation agreement before he moves out. The best thing is to have your H there. Separation can be harmful. That's not to say that you tolerate his infidelity indefinitely. While he is living in the house you do need to make it clear that NC will be required if you want to recover the marriage.

Hmmm OW's 25. How does he feel about having kids? Is he looking forward to having kid free retirement or is he hoping to have new kids to replace the older children who reject him?

One priority for you is to work on healing the relationship with the older children. You can set a goal for that with him. In fact it's a great way to get him into counseling. Tell him, "I don't know if our M will make it, but married or divorced, we need to become more effective parents." You need to stand on the same page. Bill the counseling as getting help for your children, or help for yourself to back him up more, deal with the undermining you may be doing. The point is, get him in that office with a counselor. Not because he has a problem- then he won't want to go. No, you need his help with your problem or the kids' problem. Believe me, he will be forced to confront his own issues when he complains to the counselor that you wouldn't back him up and throw your son out for talking back.But U do need a GOOD counselor- and there are plenty of bad ones out there.

Try to look at things from your H's POV. Would it kill your older son to learn that if he's going to live at home he has to treat his parents with respect or move out? Would he be so disrespectful to his friends or their parents? You do need to make it clear to your children that you are committed to your H, to your M, and the two of you stand together. Put your M first. I suspect if you do you will find that your children will be much more respectful.

Try to POJA with your H a bit. OK he's a neatnik. Can you and the kids commit to keep certain areas neat for him? Maybe he could be willing to back off on other areas like the kids' bedrooms? Can you afford a cleaning lady to help a bit?

Unfortunately some spouses do take longer to break free of the affair. Your H may not be successful at first. Harley suggests 6 months of A, then go to B. I think those are good guidelines. Don't rush to B. But talk about it with your H, calmly, in terms of letting him know consequences. It's tricky, it can't seem like a threat.
example: When my H was thinking of moving out, my then 5 year old son would crawl into bed to cuddle with us. I would say I'll miss these times when you move out.

when my H was having trouble giving up the A, I did talk about consequences. I read him bits out of affair books, discussing how affairs develop and why. I read him the statistics about A relationships not succeeding. I asked him about OW. I didn't insult her. But I said stuff like she will be our kids stepmom. He'd deny it. He mentioned she was a bad driver and I said, hmmm will she be driving the kids around when you have them? It made it seem more real to him. He had to think about the mundane practical elements and that is when the fantasy started to crumble.

At the same time I tried to get closer to him and do fun things together.

Eventually it worked, though I almost had to go to plan B.

From what you describe I think there is a good chance you 2 could recover your M.

Also- don't discuss the A with your sons. OR any other family members. Not yet. Maybe your sons suspect but don't confirm it. loose lips sink ships. Telling people burns bridges and backs people into corners.

<small>[ January 03, 2003, 06:22 PM: Message edited by: espoir ]</small>

It is very typical for middle aged male WS's to become filled with hate directed at the BS. It is also very typical for them to come up with accusations and complaints about things they had never before mentioned, often things that you could not possibly be expected to change or respond to. It is insane to insist that you throw out your own child just because he is disrespectful. Almost all teenagers (and 20 year olds) are disrespectful. He is your child (I assume he is your husband's child as well?) Certainly had he wanted to be more of an authority figure to the children, he could have done so a long time ago.

This is a very common scenario, unfortunately. A middle aged man in a long-term marriage suffering from depression has an affair, turns his anger toward his wife and often children, and sometimes begins to exhibit symptoms of paranoia, thinking that everyone in his family is out to destroy him. I would recommend the book "Sudden Endings" - it is scary, but it is better to be prepared.

It is also typical for these men to claim that they will continue to support the family, and then turn their backs on the family at a later date. The most important thing at this point is to protect yourself and your kids financially. From my experience, worrying about avoiding LB's, or Plan A, or anything else just interferes with what needs to be your primary goal - protecting yourself and your kids. Nothing you do or don't do, within reason, will have any effect whatsoever on his affair. You are not in any way responsible. His complaints are most likely to be merely red herrings. It is not a matter of you or the children not having enough respect for him - those who engage in affairs do not have respect for themselves.

Nellie1,your post gave me a bit of a hopeless feeling. However, I agree with what you are saying about the middle-aged man finding the affair as a cure for depression. Also he is throwing out red herrings. However, folks here such as WAT and MELODY suggest to ignore this initial animosity. I think MELODY is on target about him being attracted by this young, uneducated woman treating him like a MAN. I can envision him teaching her things and feeling highly admired and appreciated which he seems to need now. I'm such a KNOW-IT-ALL!

I think my Plan A is working -certainly moreso than my LBing approach yesterday. My WS came home tonight-- unusual for him for a Friday although he has recently been caught in the act. Also he has not mentioned leaving again. However,
unfortunately, he acts like he doesn't want to be here. He does not want to talk that much. I eventually stopped trying and he has fallen asleep which is typical for him as an avoidance tactic. Also,isn't that typical for withdrawal from the A high.

My plan is to write him a letter tonight sharing some of the revelations I learned today especially from WAT, MELODY and ESPOIR about our family dynamics and possible solutions. However, if I follow NELLIE's POV,he is not interested in a solution. We'll see.

OMG..I found my PLAN A thread...

and come morning I plan to read every word of it.

I miss you MIMI