<small>[ January 06, 2003, 05:16 PM: Message edited by: Baby Blue ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Baby Blue:
<strong>Chaz... Thank you for your response. You are so very insightful... </strong>

dohhh why cant anyone just stop right there!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Of course it affected my self esteem!

how do you explain that it affects/ed your self esteem but nothing you do or did affects his? it just seems a double standard to say "he had low self esteem, but its not my fault" and that things he may do or does affects yours.

The difference is, I didn't (intentionally) reject him.

but you did, i didnt intentionally run over the dog when i backed out of the garage, but i did.

I WAS open to communication. He wouldn't communicate because of HIS self esteem issues. HE felt that his feelings were selfish and unjustified. So HE buried them, refused to acknowledge them, even when *I* brought up that I was feeling the same way! (of course I didn't know he also felt that way!) There was nothing more I could have done....

I couldnt either, i was so disfunctional i couldnt talk to my wife at all. she had all the control and power, she could have demanded that i live in the garage and i would have thinking thats what will make her like me.

you see self-esteem isnt as contained within oneself as the title would lead us to believe. if we are to truely become one, be interdependant and not independant then there is responsibility for caring for our-esteem.

but he didn't want me to know this, because he liked the way I always looked at him with such love and respect, he didn't want to let me down. He was afraid I would think less of him 'as a man'

another way to word this is that he was afraid to be REAL with you for FEAR of how you would respond.

real or not his perception was that ou would love him less if he was REAL in front of you. I get that i really do.

Of course it awakened unmet/unacknowledged needs in himself.. he never 'intended' to have an affair.. he was in denial about everything (classic conflict-avoider),, just floating along thinking this is how it should be. He has always been a perfectionist with very high standards. He's hardest on himself. He cares too much about what other people think.

he and i have much in common, its an incideous thing. i can only share that it is extreamly important for his development that he knows that it is safe for him to be honest and real.

god thats not fair i know but if your goal is truely to be married at the end that has to be part of your plan.

Yet when he got involved with this A, he couldn't stop. The "high" was incredible (according to him).

probably not much unlike when he first met you. not to diminish your relationship, but when he met you, and before the kids, you probably made him feel exactly the same if not better.

would you deny that the "High" you and he shared was incredible? this is an honest statement from him and you chid it like its unbelieveable.

So was the guilt. But a man of his caliber would not cheat unless he had a very good reason, so there must be something terribly wrong with ME. So he started to criticize me and pick fights with me. That's what ultimately tipped me off.... it was so out of character.

I started to stand up for myself and struggle for power in my life, even ask for what i wanted and expressed what i didnt want.

my wife says that was probably the hardest part for her, giving up power and control.

Bottom line: this whole mess could have been avoided if my H had had enough confidence or trust in ME and US to just allow himself to be vulnerable and open up to me. He didn't. He felt he had to be the perfect everything, and it literally destroyed him and us. I'm still working on what I could have done to let him know that I love HIM, he doesn't have to be Superman! I accept him completely,

Being vunerable is the key for me, that my wife was invunerable and from my perspective unapproachable made it impossible for me to be so myself.

It would be so much easier to cut my losses, run like hell, lick my wounds, and move on.

its easier to give birth than to raise the dead!

thats a two way street, it would be for him too you both deserve much credit for doing it this way!

But I promise you this... if he ever does this to me again, I will leave. A woman can only take so much.

funny thats exactly my line, I'll never live that way again, if marriage is going to be what is was, I will leave. A man can only take so much.

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<small>[ January 06, 2003, 05:17 PM: Message edited by: Baby Blue ]</small>

Chaz, superior wife? Yes Indeed I am and have been! You bet. I let him put me down as the evil ***** worse than any he'd ever known all to excuse his behavior. I spent 5 yrs in deep depression, counseling and hurting because I thought there was something very wrong with me. Suicide attempts to because I thought I'd failed.
The failure is him! All that know me personally throughout my marriage have known who we both were. And wondered how I could stand the emotional, mental, and physical abuse, and still love and pamper this man. All who know me have told him he'd the luckiest man alive to have me! I just had to start listening to someone besides the jerk's opinion of me.
I am way ahead of many of todays wives and I proudly say it. Not many still do the things for their H that I do! Even my own daughter thinks I'm acting more like his slave and he treats me as such. As Dr.Phils a ys, you teach people how to treat you. And I suppose I've taught him to expect the best from me as his due while he makes a doormat and almost cost me my life.
The only wrong I did according to him was having feelings! And getting ill from his lying and cheating. Why and how did the OW make him so happy? She never complained of his treatment of her. Did he tell her of his past behavior and how he had conducted himself toward his family and me? NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!
Of course not. He presented this wonderful, caring man who was not appreciated. Let me see now. For all the years I was dying inside, having one visit after another to doctors and hospitals, I was making sure he never had to take one of our vehicles to the garage where I sat all day at times. Sometimes it was two in one day to the garage. I paid all the bills so he would not have to do it on his time off and could relax. I did yardwork along with our son so dad wouldn't have to get out in 110 degree heat to do it. Dad never has to mow a lawn, or even take out the trash! I kept the AC off until just an hour before he'd come home from his air conditioned office, then I'd turn it on and get house comfortable for him. I was saving him money only to find out he was stealing it from our acct, hiding it to spend on his vacation across country in 5 star hotels wiht OW. And eat fancy dinners of course. Do you know what 110 heat is to a heart patient? It can actually cause death!
I iron all permanent press clothes because I want him to feel he looks nice and not even a wrinkle. I cook every night, large dinners, not fast food for junk. I serve at exactly the same time as he's used to it. I packed his lunch so he wouldn't waste time going out to eat, his choice he said wasted too much of his lunch hour. I used to get up a 4 am to comb his hair due to his having a cowlick that he couldn't cope with! I did it without his asking. I was doing it to show how much I loved and cared about his feeling he looked good!
When I worked, I made sure he had full wardrobes of quality only to find out he took those clothes to wear with OW! And then he'd go out in work clothes or jeans with me. Never dress nice for me, wouldn't shower but every other day, shave only for work, not weekends at all. I put love notes each day in is lunch for him to see how I loved him. We once lived in a home for over a year and once he asked for coffee at night. I said I'm so tired, will you get it and bring me one too? He had to ask where the cups were kept as he'd never gotten himself a cup of coffee. He was always waited on.
My looks? I shower, dress, perfume, hair and make up done every single day to perfection as I'm also a professional in the dept of beauty care! He's never seen me sleep in curlers, or big old flannel nighties. Sex? I love making love with my husband and am ready at the drop of a hat. Or the soap for that matter. LOL
But he rejected me many times over years, yet he never heard the word no.
My looks? Let's just say I was offered big money to pose for a men's magazine which I turned down!
When we bought a new home, with nothing but desert around it, I planted 80 trees by myself! Do you know what digging in Caliche is? Try it sometime! I'm 5'2, 118 lbs, 40 inch bust, 26 waist and would die before letting myself go to pot!
The ow? Simply an old girlfriend he was struck on years ago. She weighs in at about 225 now! and is 5' tall! She offered him laughs and fun due to no responsibilities of having to do his daily chores for him. Oh, she doesn't iron or cook and has not taken good enough care of herself to even have intercourse now! She's dried up and atrophied! So what did he get? Away from having to take responsibility for his other A with a whore of a barmaid.
Do I take the car out for maintenance now? NO. Do I do the yard work. NO
Do I still iron most things and cook? YES! Am I still a tiger in bed? You bet when he's willing.
I also try to open lines of communication all the time. He sits now that he is retired and watches TV at least 12 hours a day. And I'm not kidding. Shave? about twice a week. Shower, maybe twice a week. I still do not turn him down though it's sickening to smell an unclean mate in bed! Did he do this with her? NO, he showered twice a day and shaved twice a day for her while on Vacation. So tell me what or who is doing the LBing here?
Had my say and it's my year to shine in 2003. Because I'm also a licensed Real Estate Broker who is going back to making the big money and moving on with or without him.
The big loser here will not be me. It's going to be a man who never appreciated what he had until he lost it for good!
I just returned from a 3 day trip to Vegas that he would not give up football to go on.
Had a ball with my kids too. Yes, it's my year to shine and find someone who knows how to appreciate woman who knows how to give 110 percent when she knows she is loved and is made happy as well. I finally woke up and know how much I have to offer and how good I am! it's time others here also realized their worth instead of thinking they did something terribly wrong or that some bimbo had more to offer than they have.
There is a world full of bimbos, but not many unique women like many of us here!
I say let them have the scum while we go on to something far better. It's just a matter of finding it instead of hiding our light under a bushel!
The last few years of torture and mind abuse is enough for me. If he wants me, he'll have to earn me now. But I may not stay still long enough for him to catch me now.
Have a great year everyone. Just don't allow the WS's to put you through more abuse and blame you or tear you down anymore. It's their shortcoming, not ours. LouLou
SOMETIMES YOU DON'T KNOW WHAT YOU HAVE OR HAD, UNTIL YOU LOSE IT!

Baby Blue,

I am really sorry that you deleted your post, while i dont think some people got the spirit of where our dialog was going, i felt really good about it.

there are post here bashing men and ws alike as you feared, but you deleted a good part of the portion that wasnt.

you started this by stating a belief, one that you found logic in and could put some faith behind, I was hoping to influence that belief a little more towards center, and i believe that you are reasonable enough to have been moved a bit.

there are other posting who are so bent on punishment and being right that they lack the ability to self evaluate and be reasonable.. and ultimatly they are destin to add damage when repair is in order.

you are not the focus of that debate.

Chaz... I'm going to try to be very careful what I say so that I am not misunderstood again.

Let me try to explain: For the first time in 12 yrs my H is really doing some serious soul-searching. He brainstorms alot and is trying to understand himself and his motives/feelings/emotions/etc. in an effort to understand how he could do this, and how he was able to justify the As in his mind. I am trying very hard to be understanding and supportive. I want him to feel safe with me so that he will keep me involved in his 'journey to self-discovery.' I was stunned when he came up with this, but in therapy, our mc said it is actually an all too common way men have of dealing with these feelings, and expanded on the theory. I was very silent.. I was afraid to say anything, for fear he (my H) would take it wrong. So I remained silent and just listened. Honestly, my first instinct was "HUH??? You've got to be kidding me!!" I mean really... we live in a civilized world, come on!! But the more I thought about it, I believe there is an element of truth to it. Yes, it's an oversimplification... but I do believe it is based on an element of truth. So, then I came here to try to make sense of it. I really felt you and I were making some progress on how some of these basic instinctual parts of men and women can affect us even today, if we refuse to acknowledge them, think about them, and then think before we act. Humans are still animals after all. I know we like to pretend we're not, but we are. We just happen to be fortunate enough to have the ability to think, however, it doesn't always mean we do. And this is by no means his 'reason' for cheating. Just a stepping stone in his self-discovery journey, and in our recovery. We are trying to understand each other, so that this doesn't happen to us again. JMO.