all the more reason melody, to be sure and counteract ones negative feelings (and hardheart) toward this unknown stranger. The reasons you stated are pragmatic realities, not codes to live by, which again brings us back to the original posters point. There is worth (and obligation) to treat the op just as you would anyone, on their merits.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by LurkingAbout:
<strong>If the ws deserves it, than so does the op, because they are the same. Clearly this is situational, one deserves such things on their own merits, the point being ones "status" op, bs, ws, is not relevant to ones worth. Your quote just caught my eye cause it implied you treat (as a human being) your ws differently than the op, but the op may very well be someone elses ws, so how does that work, a double standard? Not picking on you, just this whole notion of "worth" I find curioius, seems self-serving.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Again, how does criticism of the OP constitute endorsment of the WS or a double standard? I don't see where you are getting that or what one has to do with the other.

again the quote at hand was

I'm sorry, but I fail to see the alleged "virtue" in treating a bad person as if they were good.

If the basis is solely the op is bad cause they are an op, than you should be treating your ws as bad also (maybe you are). I assume you are not. My point is that op and ws should be treated exactly the same (as human beings, if that is what you think too, we (at least) are in a agreement.

A corollory is the notion people are just venting here, and don't mean anything by it. I would differ, everything means something, and gratuitious ws/op bashing reflects poorly on the one doing it. At the very least it is indicative of a bad attitude, and that would be of concern re their value as a human being (and all the standards we apply to such assessments). The original poster portrayed the healthy attitude, and the one that should be promoted... I also differ that ws/op bashing is therapeutic, I think it is very harmful to the one doing it...but maybe the psychiatric community would differ.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by LurkingAbout:
<strong>all the more reason melody, to be sure and counteract ones negative feelings (and hardheart) toward this unknown stranger. The reasons you stated are pragmatic realities, not codes to live by, which again brings us back to the original posters point. There is worth (and obligation) to treat the op just as you would anyone, on their merits.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I think the point of the original poster is that the OP should NOT be treated by his/her merits, but should be treated with an undeserved respect. Their "merits," or lack thereof, should not be overlooked or ignored.

I didn't say the above were "codes" to live by, but rather practical reasons why the BS would treat the OP different from the WS, which was your question. All of those factors help the BS forgive the WS, however, none of those factors exist for the OP, which makes it a very different situation. The WS is forgiven and taken back into the fold usually when they are remorseful and make amends. The OP generally never makes amends.

Speaking of double standards, do you similarly object on WS bashing threads that the WS is being treated differently than the OP? Because I sure do see LOTS AND LOTS of threads criticizing the WS and noone says a word. But when someone DARES to criticize the OP, there is always defensiveness and accusations of "double standards." <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by LurkingAbout:
<strong>again the quote at hand was

I'm sorry, but I fail to see the alleged "virtue" in treating a bad person as if they were good.

If the basis is solely the op is bad cause they are an op, than you should be treating your ws as bad also (maybe you are). I assume you are not. My point is that op and ws should be treated exactly the same (as human beings, if that is what you think too, we (at least) are in a agreement.

A corollory is the notion people are just venting here, and don't mean anything by it. I would differ, everything means something, and gratuitious ws/op bashing reflects poorly on the one doing it. .</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">First off, I have never stated how I treated my WS but it is still beside the point becuase the issue is the OP's behavior. One does not justify the other. Nor can you make a case of "double standards" without facts.

Secondly, I disagree that bashing or stating facts about bad behavior *IS* bad behavior. What reflects badly on a person is committing adultery. Stating one's disgust at that bad behavior is not bad behavior. It is simply a natural reaction to injustice. Now...... sitting SILENT in the face of abhorrent behavior also qualifies as bad behavior [if not moral cowardice] in my book.

<small>[ February 05, 2003, 05:03 PM: Message edited by: TheCalypso ]</small>

you know, I am not sure we are talking about the same things. I certainly agree with your comments about stating facts and bad behaviour.

re double standard, as I understand the term (and the implication it is not desireable) is when we treat people differently for the same behaviour. I think I have made my observations clear in this context (op/ws).

How you treat or not your ws is beside the point, if you treat them the same fine. If not, my points apply, as well as to anyone else behaving similarly. I am not commenting on your specific behaviour, but on the topic at hand, and your (and others) comments about this topic.

As far as adultery being bad behaviour, certainly true. Although quite often adultery is not the issue (ea etc.). But bad behaviour does not excuse other bad behaviour, I am sure you agree. So your observation that expressing disgust at adultery is ok is not true. It is conditional, how it is expressed is relevant, and that is my point, which was quite clear. I am not really sure of your point though. Do you think ws and op should be treated differently as human beings? And do you think all expressions of disgust are ok, no matter how made?

I wasn't going to touch this one, but oh well, let me go get my 10ft pole. Did I call my OW's men names? You bet your bum. Was it constructive? Gee let me think, uhm, no?? Did it help me vent my bad feelings? H-e-double hockey sticks yes it did. Now, how do I really feel about my W's OP's?? All in all, I feel pretty sorry for them. Why you ask? Let me break it down for you.

OM#1-A good friend of mine. Sat and lisntened to me tell him of problems between me and my W, then used them to help himself. If I have to tell you to what, you need to come back when you're 18. He has a young son whom he never sees. He even resents that he has to pay child support. "It's not his fault". His son doesnt' even call him dad, calls him by his initials like his friends do. He is now living with an older woman, who BTW is hooked on crack while pining over the mother of his baby AND my W. Sad way to live if you ask me. Even worse 'cause I called his momma, a VERY nice christian woman BTW, and told her of the A. That's why he lives with crackhead instead of with his mommy anymore which is where he lived when doinking my W.

OM#2-How do I describe him? Has anyone ever seen the movie Joe Dirt? Well, OM#2's greatest aspiration couldn't even come close to being as good as David Spades' character. Yes my friends, white trash at it's best. Again, sad way to live. The worst part is, I think he's actually happy that way. He BTW, has never had a job, lives on welfare and his brothers' SS checks. They live with their mom and older sister. Their sis has like 90 kids.

OM#3-Well, this is the one that almost took her away for good. He was good looking, cool, fairly well to do, and oh, by the way, married. Model citizen, right? He also fancies himself a good singer (as did my W while in fog-land). Personally, I've heard him and I think he sounds like a drunken Bobcat Goldthwait. JMHO. His story to my W was he was trying to D his W but wanted to sell his house in the Virgin Islands first so she didn't get the house which BTW he supposedly owned before they got married. So that's why he wasn't D'ed yet, riiigghhtt. He said he and his W had an agreement to stay M for convenience but otherwise had an open R. I wonder why then did he get so P'ed when I confronted him at his apt with his W there? Interesting. How do I feel about a man who has to find happiness by cheating on his W with a married woman? Sad. Pity. Anger. BTW, he has moved on since my W, and his new OW is married also. Oy.

Was my W just as bad? Yup. The difference is, she's sorry for what she's done and shows remorse/repentance for her actions. The OM's to date, have not. In fact, two of them have actually tried to instigate trouble with us.

Now see, I feel so much better <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> . Saying these things is simply a healthy (IMO) way to vent. Better here than at your WS/FWS, right?

Kudos all.

BTW, WAT...
I must not call OM a scumbag.

Hehe, thanks, I needed that one <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> .

MTD

Not all of us call the OW names, I don't think I have, well, except to myself. I don't want her around my children, if my M fails and we D, I will let my children form their own opinion of OW and H. I know my children will hear the truth, if not from me, then from other family members.

How can you teach your children that what he did is wrong, if you are teaching them to respect OW. I'm not saying that you teach them to hate, but they do not deserve respect.

Yes, it takes two to have an affair, if their was not willing OP's, then the WS could not be WS because there is noone to be wayward with. And the reverse is true too.

Done babbling.

<small>[ February 05, 2003, 05:02 PM: Message edited by: TheCalypso ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by LurkingAbout:
<strong>

As far as adultery being bad behaviour, certainly true. Although quite often adultery is not the issue (ea etc.). But bad behaviour does not excuse other bad behaviour, I am sure you agree. So your observation that expressing disgust at adultery is ok is not true. It is conditional, how it is expressed is relevant, and that is my point, which was quite clear. I am not really sure of your point though. Do you think ws and op should be treated differently as human beings? And do you think all expressions of disgust are ok, no matter how made?</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I think that WS and Op *ARE* naturally going to be treated differently because they are different. Their relationship to the BS is entirely different so there will naturally be a difference in treatment as I stated above.

However, I would disagree that its NOT ok to express disgust at adultery. Of course it is ok. By what standard could it possibly be considered bad behavior? A normal person will be disgusted at immoral behavior and thats not bad behavior - its a normal reaction. I would like to see you justify that standard.

And I can't really answer your last question because it is so vague. Could you frame it differently?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by TheStorm:
<strong>

Melodylane-

Can I ask another question? I just finished your last post and was wondering: if her beliefs don't fall into your beliefs, then she's "inappropriate" and "must be an unrepentant other woman?" How can you justifiably come to that conclusion?? Does that mean that because I also don't agree with all of your statements, I'm an unrepentant FOW, too?

?</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Storm,

Why don't you post the exact statement that you are asking about because I don't see what you are talking about. I need you to be more specific.

Just once, I would love to hear my fiance badmouth the OW!!! I even told him that...if he would only call her a sk@nk or a b!tch, or say he hates her, I would feel so much better. However, although he has zero respect for her, and he hates what they did, he refuses to badmouth her...and that annoys the heck outta me. I feel that as long as he doesn't badmouth her, he is protecting her. It serves no purpose really, but I wish he would do it just to appease me. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" />

YUP! I called her a lot of names. Think I refered to her here in my first post as OC ( other cow)

Now after a lot of soul searching I have come to the conclusion.

I don't like her I don't have to , we have very differing morality systems. She very well may have some very nice qualities within her, but she also carries with her some very deep issues....ones that make it OK for her to persue a married man .Ones that make it OK for her to lie and help create havoc in the lives of others.

My husbands part in this... He carries/ed the same differing morals/boundaries and issues that made it OK for him to recipricate and persue the same selfishness.

Neither of that makes them a bad person as a whole, but something deep within, sours the wine.

They are both equally to blame for the A. I recall saying this to my husband just after the truth came out, when he was inadvertantly keeping blame to himself and in essence defending her actions.

I know she is as dishonest as you were and only you know how dishonest that was. What's so nice about your dishonesty, to make hers OK?

Kids, well sometimes I wish that mine were too young to understand what has gone on.Then again! They know the actions of their father were wrong. They also know the actions of the OW were wrong. I hope they have learnt never to betray the sanctity of marriage in their lifetimes. They also know their father is not a bad person,but his behaviour just as the OW's were bad and very very wrong.

guess we will have to agree to disagree melody.

melody..I think that WS and Op *ARE* naturally going to be treated differently because they are different. Their relationship to the BS is entirely different so there will naturally be a difference in treatment as I stated above.

la...On that basis we are empowered to treat everyone different all the time (since no two human interactions are identical), so out the window goes any standards of ethics. I don't disagree that there is a natural difference, just as I think it is natural to want to kill someone, or steal something, or a million other things. The point being we don't do such things, so we don't treat the ws and op differently (unless their behaviour warrants, which it often will).

melody..However, I would disagree that its NOT ok to express disgust at adultery.

la...I didn't say that, I discussed how it is expressed, perhaps you misread. I agree appropriate expressions of disgust are ok.

melody..And I can't really answer your last question because it is so vague. Could you frame it differently?

la...no need to respond, it was basically rhetorical. I could make up some examples of good expression vs bad expression, but you seem pretty smart, doubt it would contribute much to the discussion at hand.

I am not saying there is anything wrong with harsh treatment of a op, provided the treatment is consistent with the op behaviour, and not vengeful. What I am saying is that the fact one is an op tells you very little about the person, and illustrating that by virtue of the "fact" all bs are married to an op, and treat them on their own merits.

<small>[ February 05, 2003, 05:01 PM: Message edited by: TheCalypso ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This is what I was referring to, Melody. While I don't agree that calling the OP names belittles the BS (although I see the thought process she used to get there), I don't see how anything she said means she must be an unrepentant OW. She simply has a viewpoint that is different than your own. It's not warped, anymore than your viewpoint of teaching a child to be disrespectful of the op, should they stay in the WS's life. It's a differing of opinions. And sure, we'll all debate back and forth on what's right and give our two cents, but it doesn't make anyone "warped" for having them. ?[/QB]</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">And I would disagree for the reasons I gave. All viewpoints are not equally valid and some cannot be defended rationally. This is one of them. Her condemnation of the BS for bashing the OP is more than warped, it is pernicious. She is condemning the victim for bashing the source of her torment. She is condemning the wrong person and has her standards upside down. That is warped.

Nor did I ever advocate disrespectful treatment of the OP. I think that children should be expected to show CIVIL behavior to all adults, however, they should not ever be expected to respect DISRESPECTFUL people. And an unrepentent OP would definitely fall into this category.

Also, I don't suspect that this is an OW because of a differing opinion, but because of the reasons I gave.

Hope that explains where I stand.

First of all, I would like to thank you all for your replies. Especially Storm, it seems you are the one who understands most what it is I'm trying to get across.

WOW!! I didn't know when I posted last night that this was going to be such a big issue. Not that I'm complaining on the contrary I think it's great to get so many different responses.

I didn't intend it to be offensive or critical I was just trying to get a point across. I wasn't trying to tell anyone what to do or say I just thought that if some posters had a chance to really hear what they are saying it would help them to let go a little.

You are all adults on this board and I don't go around telling people what to do. I was stating an opinion, my opinion, which I do believe I have the right to.

All I'm saying is we go around blaming the OM/OW for our situations but, we let the one person most responsible off the hook. Why is that??? I think it's because we want to give them an in, you know, leave the door open just a little so that if things don't work out with the OP they can come back to us knowing full well that we'll take them back because we love them.

We are so willing to forgive them because we love them and that's okay and as most of you have already stated, you bad mouth the OP to make you feel better and that's okay too, I guess for those of you who feel better doing so.

My point, which I think got lost in all of this was, if you're going to bad mouth the OP at least make it so that it doesn't make you look bad. I mean some of the things I've read make the writer sound pathetic, again, it's not my intention to be critical or judgmental but, really. Try to be more like REBA <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" /> Now that woman has class.

Someone, I'm sorry I don't remember who it was at this moment, asked what my technic was. Well, I have no technic, I just try to do what I think is right for me and leave the rest to the lord. Plus when you have children you can't help but think of them before doing or saying anything cause you know they are watching and learning.

I hear other mothers say "Do as say not as I do" and I guess I want to be the kind of mother who teaches her children by example but, hey that's just me.

As usual I've said to much and probably made more people mad at me. I hope that's not the case cause it's been very nice visiting here although I didn't feel like I was welcomed by all but, that's okay you can't please all of the people all of the time. As most of you probably know by now you can only be totally true to yourself, you know, "To thine own self be true."

Good night to all
Good luck!!!
MFC-B <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by LurkingAbout:
<strong>guess we will have to agree to disagree melody

la...On that basis we are empowered to treat everyone different all the time (since no two human interactions are identical), so out the window goes any standards of ethics. I don't disagree that there is a natural difference, just as I think it is natural to want to kill someone, or steal something, or a million other things. The point being we don't do such things, so we don't treat the ws and op differently (unless their behaviour warrants, which it often will).

.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">LA,

I think you are missing my point entirely about treating the behavior the same. The OP and the WS cannot be treated the same because the relationships are ENTIRELY DIFFERENT. I obviously cannot divorce the OW because I am not married to her. I CAN divorce the WS, however. I may forgive the WS and bring him back into my life, I would never bring the OP into my life. [altho I may forgive her under the right circumstances]

From a moral standpoint, the behavior of the WS is WORSE than that of the OP because of special committments the WS has to spouse and family. The WS has done MORE than mere adultery, but violated a committment to the spouse. Adultery is equally wrong on both parts, though.

So no, I don't agree that it is moral [or even rational] to treat everyone the same, because the relationships are not the same. I just don't understand why you think this means we throw all morals out the window. That is dogmatic and ignores underlying issues.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by My favorite color-BLUE:
<strong>

My point, which I think got lost in all of this was, if you're going to bad mouth the OP at least make it so that it doesn't make you look bad. I mean some of the things I've read make the writer sound pathetic, again, it's not my intention to be critical or judgmental but, really. :</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I am certain that all we BS' greatly appreciate your undying concern for our image lest we make ourselves "look bad" by criticizing the OP. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

We sure wouldn't want to do that and I know OW everywhere will, no doubt, appreciate your vigorous defense of their poor little defenseless souls. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />