Espoir took the words out of my mouth. Most of us here have never voiced many of the statements posted here that you have read.
I for one met OP and treated her with indifference as if I was meeting a stranger, because I did not want to make an "a$$" out of myself. But.... This is a place to get those feelings out any way you can, because that makes room for healing and progress to begin. So if "so-and-so" wants to call the OP a gravy sucking digraceful mound of flesh than I say: "Go for it", because then afterwards "so-in-so" can start rising above those gut animalistic, "wounded pride and heart" reactions and learn, grow and heal. No matter HOW we do it the end result is to heal....correct??? And in healing we will be better people and I am sure our children will benefit even more so from our venting here than you could possibly imagine.... JMHO

It's really such a non issue...people that at times call the OW names are well aware that it doesn't accomplish anything...they don't expect it to...

And people that use those terms here on this forum should not ever be ashamed of their behavior here...this is a safe forum for them to do so..and in all honestly very little of it goes on here....

BUT BUT BUT...this is my favorite part of your whole "point"....mfcb

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I still think that it's wrong to judge other people and I don't think that it's a bad thing to teach my children to be civil. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">First of all those are way two seperate issues...judging someones ACTIONS does NOT lead one to be non civil...
It leads us to make decisions about what we will expose ourselves and our children to...

And yet I find great irony that you profess we should not judge other people...and yet come here with all these judgemental thoughts and reflections on those that say ANYTHING negative about the OP...

THAT is just illogical....poor OP...so innocent bad BS...so mean to even utter any negative notion on a safe forum against poor OP...

So in reality...you offer the BS more harsh JUDGEMENT when reacting to betrayal...than to those that PARTICIPATED by choice in the betayal...ugghh...and yet claim to judge no one...sheesh <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

Soo in conclusion I say to you you honor...and to the jury...
That we all get it that calling names solves nothing...
BUT we also get that actions speak louder than words...and those actions that are decietful and hurtful to others and children....like it or not do DEFINE us..

But of all the foul plays and bad behavior that can come out of an affair...name calling is probably the least of all evils...

ARK

When someone cuts me off in traffic .... I might "judge them" and flip them off <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> ... but, because I live and drive in LA .... and you never know who is in the car next to you and what weapon they may carry on the seat next to them .... I "flip bird" in my lap ... so I am the only one who knows I did it!!! And it makes me feel tremendously better afterwards <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> .... and it is immature and not civil .... and I feel better anyways <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> ..... and i used to post to a woman named GABBY on another forum who was once a BS , then divorced, and is currently a OW .... and her philosophy was identical to MFC-B's. Co-inky-dinky-do.

Now .... the question you have to ask yourself is this:

"Is Pepper flipping off to the computer right this very moment?"

Well .......am I? Do you feel lucky, punk? Well, do ya? (Too many Clint Eastwood movies and too much cough syrup made me write this. I'm claiming temporary insanity)

pepper <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

<small>[ January 14, 2003, 01:03 PM: Message edited by: Pepperband ]</small>

I perosnally enjoy flipping off anyone who uses such sentiments as .....

Co-inky-dinky-do. !!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

I usually judge them to be cough syrup junkies...strung out on whatever they can their hand on in the medicine chest...

Does this lessen everyones view of me in their eyes...have I lost everyones respect...

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />
peace pepper!!
ARK

aaaaaaaaArrrrrrKKKKKKKKK

Fluff my pillow and make me a cupp-a tea would ya pleeeeezzzzzz

Hi all,
Hey DB, how are you.

Just my 2cents,
My H was way across the line, he was the one with the marriage vows, ect.

How ever the ow. #(*$&#&$(#&$(#,
KNEW HE WAS MARRIED, came to my home, held my daughter on her lap, freak. what kind of blankety blank woman befriends her lovers wife, TO H WITH HER.

He is starting to wake up to her true character, and as ive said before, I hope its not a day late and a dollar short

This place has kept me sane, the safe venting place has been what has kept me together,

sara

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by My favorite color-BLUE:
<strong>Good morning to all,

I thank all who have taken the time to post their thoughts. I still think that it's wrong to judge other people and I don't think that it's a bad thing to teach my children to be civil. Yes, this woman has been a bad thing in our lives but, if I teach them to hate her I will also have to teach them to hate their father because he's as much to blame as she is.

Good luck to all!! MFC-B</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Blue,

Instead of self righteously attempting to get others to "look at themselves" might I suggest that you should first take a look at yourself?

First off, I seriously question the fitness of a so-called "parent" who admittedly cannot "judge" right from wrong. It is the job of a parent to teach children right from wrong. A person like you who cannot judge right from wrong, as you admit you can't, is simply not fit to raise children.

Nor are they qualified to "judge" others for "name calling." You don't seem to comprehend that you contradict yourself when you self righteously claim to be "non-judgemental" and then judge others for name-calling. That is called HYPOCRITICAL, dear. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

As I see it we are in general very calm and well mannered when it comes to OW bashing. I have lurked in several infidelity boards before, and one of their many games appart from "conceal the hicky", is "badmouth the psycho wife from hell".

These women will go to extreme and say the foulest things. They don't stop at bimbo or anything as mild as that, oh no, they go through every single detail they can find and learn and obsess about the wife, be it the way she has her bathroom decorated, to her favourite color, anything.

"She likes red, what kind of psychotic wife likes red???"

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> I personally find their antics so desperate sometimes they are actually laughable.

Here at MB we will rant and rave all we want, but if we get into who is more insulted, hurt and degraded, I think the BS's always go way off chart.

I know I don't badmouth the XOW, I state facts, and repeat quote by quote impressions that have been passed to me by his family, people that know her, and worked with her, I am not saying friends, because every and each person that knows her, told me, as nicely as they could, that "I wouldn't associate with that kind of person."

Even my XWS used to run away from her and wanted to kill himself so she'd leave him alone, and he told her so, but she lives in her own lalaland, where everybody loves her no matter how spiteful, cruel and vile she is.

Sometimes it is therapeutic badmouthing, other times, it is sad and crude reality. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

I think it's great that you're far enough down your healing path that you're at a point where you can be civil. And it is in your children's best interest to try and get along with their new step-mom. So congrats!

But, just as you stated, once you might have been incapable of seeing anything but negatives in this woman, so too are some still at this point in their situations. It takes time to heal. It takes understanding and empathy from others to accept that each of us must move down our own individual paths on our own timetable.

Having someone, even with the best intentions, tell us how wrong we are to say what we feel and think isn't the best way of supporting them. jmho They need to have their feelings validated...it is their feelings after all.

As we walk our healing paths, we usually do began to non-demonize the OP, but as I said it takes time. The less pressure they have to move the faster they will move. jmho

Understanding, validating, empathy, caring and kindness and most of all listening to the pain, fear, confusion behind the words...will be of the greatest help in whatever situation you find yourself in.

I'm sorry, but I fail to see the alleged "virtue" in treating a bad person as if they were good. There is no virtue in ignoring wrongdoing. This is a very twisted practice, especially in front of children. Now, if they CHANGED and made amends I could see the point, but that is not the situation presented here.

I strongly suspect that this thread was begun by an unrepentent - and proud of it - OW whose goal it is to shame victims into withholding their judgement of the OP. A self serving pursuit, if ever there was one. Sadly, we have some people on this forum who are gullible enough to aide her in her sick little pursuit.

Just imagine what kind of mind walks into this forum and cannot even comprehend the deep despair and heartbreak, but instead zeroes in on "NAME-CALLING?" And NOT name calling of the victims, but name calling of the person responsible for the heartbreak and despair.

That is a very cold, callous person indeed. The KIND of person who would sleep another's husband and not bat an eyelash. The kind of person who would try and take that man away from his little daughter or son so she could be with her "soulmate." And not bat an eyelash.

Just keep focused on what the subject is here. This thread was meant as a condemnation [ie: judgement] of victims who DARE to call their tormenters "names." Very warped and very inappropriate.

<small>[ January 14, 2003, 03:59 PM: Message edited by: MelodyLane ]</small>

I have to agree with the ladies here, this is our place to vent, and do it without harming the OP or getting ourselves in trouble, so just let us ok?

If you think that much of the name calling then I'm sure you would not approve of the way I grapped OW by the hair and threw her into the car door before slamming her to the ground and beating her to a bloody pulp all the while telling her exactly what I thought of her? Probably not <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> Do I care? Rhetorical question.

Do I teach my children to be civil to everyone whether they like them or not, yes I do. And they get it too, they give respect to everyone and if the person does not deserve it they recognize that and keep dealings with that person to a minimum. I do not allow my children to act a fool under any circumstances. But what they don't see they don't know. Mommy gets a little mad sometimes and sometimes its hard to keep it all in, and they will learn that too one day.

So Miss Blue, find someone else to preach too cause I ain't listening, and calling OW names is the least of her problems, she better hope she's not close of enough to me to hear them or she'll feel them too.

Good day!!!
Bridgette

You all know that's "grabbed" right? Good.

These intertminable threads about who said what, how should it be said, what should one do, etc. are curious to me cause they are so pointless. Is hatred a good thing, of course not, no sane person thinks so. Is childish bashing of people who have invaded your space (or marriage) normal? Sure it is. Will most people try to behave in a civil, rational manner with the op (if they become part of your life, or are because they are in your circle of family, friends etc.) I spect so...well, healthy individuals anyways...but bs have no corner on the healthy market, some of them are just as messed up as any ws, just now they have great ammunition to ply their obsessive behaviour.

There is one thing though I cannot for the life of me figure out. When one makes all these categorical judgements about the unworthiness of op, you are talking about your WS as well. Yet they get the benefit of the doubt, an effort to accept them, deal with their issues etc. even if one divorces. So when poster A on this thread is trashing the op, and poster B is doing the same, and they are making common cause to demean the op....they could be talking about each others spouse, so why be married to these "losers". If you are going to treat your spouse with civility, caring, etc. then if follows you do the same for op, or neither, depending on the actions of each individual, their status notwithstanding, and I think that is the point then original poster is making. Not to mention that many bs become ws themselves, we won't even go with that point.

melody...I'm sorry, but I fail to see the alleged "virtue" in treating a bad person as if they were good.

la...so, how ya treating your bad person? (if you are not a bs, than any of the other bs can comment if they want).

<small>[ January 14, 2003, 04:50 PM: Message edited by: LurkingAbout ]</small>

I am not feeling you Lurking, not at all. I do see your point though. And in fact WS did get his share. But it is true that I love him and because I do it was hard to see him as such a culprit. I do know the whole thing was his fault, he told her he was not involved and she had every right to believe him...at first...a month later she found out he had lied and in fact was living with me four years by then and had a baby on the way, and still she persisted. Even after he chose me in front of her she persisted. And that my dear is why she got her a** beat. Today he is still dealing with the fact that he hurt me, so he did not get off easy. I don't think any of the waywards do.

This is an interesting discussion and being carried out on several issues.

1) That the WS is involved with someone the BS finds despicable reflects badly on the BS.

--I don't agree at all. The WS & OP's dishonorable actions reflect badly only them. They afflict the BS, but are no indication of the BS's character, attractiveness or wifely abilities.

2) Children should be taught to be polite and civil.
--Sure, of course.

3) When the OP becomes a part of the children's life, compromise and working together with the BS & WS is an issue.
--But, kids aren't weapons and their well-being should be a priority so that they dont suffer from the natural consequences of their parent's infidelity any more than is the situation--the broken home, the visitation, the turmoil. Adults handle the adult issues.

4) That "Bad mouthing" on MB = bad behavior in real life.
--No, in fact, it may help us cope when we know others have gone gracefully or at least nonconfrontatively through real life encounters.

5) That "Bad mouthing" raises the BS's self-esteem.

--The OP's flaws, character & physical are part of the whole "WHY HAS THIS HAPPENED" syndrome.

When Julia Roberts started dating a married man, we had a discussion what was worse, the OP as "trading up" or OP as "yuck/trading down". But neither makes the BS feel any less pain of betrayal.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">la...so, how ya treating your bad person? (if you are not a bs, than any of the other bs can comment if they want).</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">LA,

Did I miss something here? How is criticism of the OP somehow an endorsment of the WS? Just because the issue is the OP doesn't mean that there is a double standard here, only that the issue at hand is the OP. Nor do 2 rights make a wrong.

Not that you asked, but personally, I hold the WS *MORE* culpable than the OP because the WS made a committment to me; the OP did not. However, the WS' guilt does not exonerate the OP.

I have yet to bash the OW on my posts. I did go to her house and I was very civil. (Even thought the B**** gave my H Herpes and then H gave it to me). It is not in my nature to act ugly to anyone. (In person that is) I wish I was not so nice. Since this whole thing has occured I have been told that I am not as nice and my Italian temer is starting to show.

Anyway, imagine being in the mall at Christmas time with over a million people in the city. I was standing in line to check out and this woman was in front of me, I did not recgonize her since it had been almost 6 months since I went to her house but I did recgonize her voice (isn't that strange?) I could do nothing but stand there and almost have a panic attack, but instead I told my 18 year old daugher (Who does not know about OW) to hold my place. I walked right up to the OW who was trying despartely to leave the store and nicely tapped her on the shoulder and said "It's a small world isn't it?" I walked back to checkout and thought I was going to faint. Boy did my H get it when I got home. I did not bash her but I did bash him!!!

not so much the criticism, plenty to go around (no one is perfect thing, bs, ws, op everyone), but the notion (by some) the op is always a lowlife (they may be) deserveing of no civil treatment, goodwill, or caring. If the ws deserves it, than so does the op, because they are the same. Clearly this is situational, one deserves such things on their own merits, the point being ones "status" op, bs, ws, is not relevant to ones worth. Your quote just caught my eye cause it implied you treat (as a human being) your ws differently than the op, but the op may very well be someone elses ws, so how does that work, a double standard? Not picking on you, just this whole notion of "worth" I find curioius, seems self-serving.

LA, I thought about this some more and want to answer your question more fully. Under the right circumstances, some BS' are willing to forgive the WS for several reasons:

a. they are in love with them
b. they have a history with this person
c. they have children
d. are emotionally invested/dependent
e. are financially entangled/dependent
d. the WS is remorseful and agrees to change

None of these traits, however, apply to the OP. The BS doesn't even KNOW the OP usually. Add to that the fact the BS doesn't even associate with the OP so the OP never bothers or has the opportunity to make amends. The WS often DOES make amends and fully redeems him/herself. [sign of a "good" character]

Because of all these reasons, it is only a natural consequence that the BS is going to hold more negative feelings towards an UNKNOWN, unapologetic person whose ONLY association is a very very negative one.

lady terry the op in your life while understandably betrayed herself by your H lies still behaved poorly when she continued pursuit, at that point she earned your enmity, not as a op, but by her behaviour. No matter how emotional we may be, or feel unfairly treated, when someone tells you to no longer pursue them, you stop. If you don't you are guilty of stalking (obsessive) behaviour, having nothing to do with love. This applies to married people as well, allthough much more complicated (obviously) due to the less than clearcut signals humans are wont to send to each other, as well as temporary insanity (fog). Still when the dust has settled, and one makes it clear you do not wish someones attention, they should stop (including spouses) or they deserve the resultant enmity, and egregious treatment they will likely recieve.