</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by LurkingAbout:
<strong>

la...I am no longer sure what the original point is. If we don't need proof though, then why do we need anything at all? Why not just assume that the perp is repentent and just does not know how to communicate that to us? If that is so, we now risk denying forgiveness due to a communication defect, is that fair? You see melody, that is the problem with trying to set up specific conditions and then set yourself up to judge those conditions, you are going to be wrong eventually, and where to draw the line is a nightmare.

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">If your brother is bashing your head in and stops, you can see he has stopped, can't you? If he continues to bash your head in, that should be a tip off that he is not repentent. I have shown you exactly what the scripture says, this is not my opinion. I expect that God figured we were clever enough to deterimine if someone was sincerely repentent or if they were just gaming the system. He didn't expect us to be dumbbunnies.

Why would you assume that the perp was repentent if they haven't asked for your forgiveness? That makes no sense, nor does it demonstrate a sense of remorse. How would that even benefit them if they don't KNOW or want your forgiveness? When someone goes to the trouble of asking for forgiveness and does repent we are required to forgive them. Period. Never is that forgiveness contingent on this standard of PERFECTION you have arbitrarily inserted here. It does not say, "if they repent PERFECTLY and forever." It says, "if they repent."

The Bible even goes on to say that if they sin against you SEVEN times in a day and come back and repent and ask forgiveness, we are to give them forgiveness. This really is a simple concept.

"....If your brother sins, rebuke him, and if he repents, forgive him. 4If he sins against you seven times in a day, and seven times comes back to you and says, 'I repent,' forgive him." Luke 17 3-4

Sure, there might be situations where you are not sure, but I think He figured that we could figure out those details and do our best as long as He gave us the underlying principles.

Name-calling is simply a by-product of venting, which we all need to do from time to time. It matters not if it's the OP, the WS or the guy who just cut you off in traffic.

Do some of us appear silly, immature or lacking in sanity while spewing our venom laced profanities and vile titles upon our targeted victims? Probably. Do we really care? Of course not.

To vent upon the WS is most often considered a LB, although they are usually deserving a good dose or two. Therefore, standing just beside the WS is the OP, and who better to catch the fallout, seeing as how they are a catalyst of the A.

How easy would it be to vent instead, on the closest people at hand...and innocent bystanders at that...your children? I hope that is not happening. The OP seems to be the most logical target then, considering the circumstances.

Anyway, "sticks and stones..." remember?

jmho

tagging off <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

<small>[ January 16, 2003, 04:44 PM: Message edited by: ba109 ]</small>

This is a great thread and all, but I wonder if some of you fine people might take a few minutes to help out a newbie? Please offer advice here... MJ-OH

Thank you all.

jd

Ahem, *MTD clears his throat a moment*...so uh, how about them Buccanears??? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

Oy, rarely have I ever seen a post this out of hand. Oh, and BTW, the last word now officially belongs to me (until the next post that is <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> ).

Double OY!!

T.T.F.N

MTD

Can you people just not stop yourselves!!!!!!!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Lor (Lor):
<strong>Redhat,
I just have to say, I've been here since 12/98 have several thousands of posts, the majority right here on GQII, so I think it is safe to say I've read tens of thousands of posts...and I can only answer 3 of 5 of your questions!</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">My Lady Lor ... that is good already b/c I throw some curve ball <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

#3 About Orchid, She hasn't changed her screen name <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />
#4 is to see if MFCB really know her stuff and read all MB as she has claimed it ...

Here it is ... I think you may have what I call th... back on the path, they are happy again. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

-rh-

Okay, everyone has had their say, so I'll have mine. And since we are quoting sciptures here, I'll quote what God put in my face 17 days after D-Day, and put it there everyday for over a year.I would open the Bible, and here it was:

You have heard that it was said, 'Eye for eye and tooth for tooth.' But I tell you. Do not resist an evil person. If someone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the the other also. Matthew 5:38-39

You have heard that it was said, 'Love your neighbor and hate your enemy. But I tell you: Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, that you may be sons of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? And if you greet only your brothers, what are you doing more than others? Do not even the pagans do that? Be perfect, therefore as your heavenly Father is perfect. Matthew 5:43-48

For if you forgive men when they sin against you, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. But if you do not forgive men their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins. Mathhew 6:1`4-15.

This was in my face every day, EVERYDAY. And those are the words of our Lord Jesus Christ. He wanted me to pray for the OW. I prayed for her salvation and for God to be in her life. I prayed for His blessings upon her. I didn't want to. I prayed for her and sometimes I told the Lord I didn't want to, and I was only doing it because He wanted me too, but the scriptures told me I HAD to. And I did.
And when she did really weird stuff to me after it was all over, (and yes, she did attack me the whole time before, during and after the A), I prayed for another man to come into her life. Guess what? One year after NC phone call from my FWS, she got married and moved out of town.
There is a God, and He is faithful. And he DOES answer prayers.
I have no problem with anyone venting about OW, my feelings are far from 'benevolent' toward the OW in my case, I just obeyed God's word. It was hard. I have struggled with a lot of hatred and anger towards her. She went after my H. She did everything she could to destroy me. But I was not to return evil for evil. I still feel that she got off scot-free and we are still dealing with the aftermath..
She had no concience, no morals, and no compunction doing and saying anything and everything she could to destroy our marriage, me in particular. My FWS agrees. However, it took him awhile to see that.
God took everything that was destroyed and made us whole again. I need to thank him everyday.
Just MHO and my $.02.
Thanks for listening, <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />
Love in Christ,
Miss M

<small>[ January 17, 2003, 01:17 AM: Message edited by: Miss M ]</small>

Why do you think adultery was preached/taught against so many times in the Bible? Why? In my opinion it is because it #1 hurts the BS so badly (not to mention the WS if they are a believer), hurts any children involved, hurts extended family, hurts the church, may even hurt the OP. #2 (imho) is because it forces the BS to elevate them selves to a level of Christian maturity that many people do not reach in a life time. To do the truly Christian thing, we would forgive, (WS and OP) totally, with or without their repentance, restore the marriage relationship and the partner to their proper postion (no questions asked), not vent, not demand answers, not set ultimatums, not harbor resentment, not be angry, turn our hurts, thoughts, grief over to God (and not act upon any of it, totally trust it to God), and the list goes on and on... Anyone out there want to say they are enough like Jesus to accomplish all of this?!?! I'll be the first to say that I'm not. And it is because of an ungodly act by my H that I'm being forced to try to deal with the aforementioned Christian attributes and come up short.

Basically WHs actions have caused me to committ transgressions that had he behaved, I would never have had placed upon me in quite this way. Thank God he's a merciful God!!

When we sin, we are stepping our fellowship with God; a fellowship in which we are required to act in a Christ-like manner (LA's "emulating God" reference). But the fact that we have sinned, and will sin, does not negate the commandment that we are to live under. The commandment exists even if we fail because the fraility of man can not mar the holiness of God.

As far as whether or not Jesus "bashed" or pointed out sin through name-calling; there is a vast difference between not only the motivations of Christ and ourselves, but the person. Christ could see the SOULS of men, whereas we cannot. We form opinions based on actions, but only God/Christ can see into the soul/heart of another. More importantly, when Christ is harsh with the sinners (Which is all of us) he is doing so out of love, similiar to the love in a parent/child relationship, but when we treat our fellow man harshly we do so out of a sinful heart, and as many have already stated, out of hurt/anger. While Christ has anger towards the sinner, it is a RIGHTEOUS anger, whereas the anger here (though logically understood) is not.
"Judge not, lest ye be judged..." Even when we pray the Lord's prayer: "Forgive me my tresspasses as I have forgiven those who tresspass against me.." this is an implied commandment... if we expect God to forgive us, we must be forgiving those who have wronged us.

I love what Miss M said. Praise God that He in his infinite wisdom put that in front of your eyes when you needed it so you could hide it your heart.

<small>[ January 17, 2003, 08:55 AM: Message edited by: TheStorm ]</small>

BTW,
If I ever vented to friends or FWS about OW, it was never to make myself feel better.
It was because of the incredible darkness that emanated from her/her messages. It was like my worst nightmare(s) had come true.
I would have overwhelming feelings of hate, anger and helplessness, and sometimes I called her names, cursed at her, etc. Thank God it was mostly in my thoughts.
At one point my FWS was so much in the fog that to bad mouth her would have only driven him further away from me. Big no-no. He told his friends she was 'nice'.
Even though she wasn't 'nice', my FWS made his choices and chose to have the A.
I realized I had (and still do sometimes) misplaced anger towards OW when it should have been toward FWS.
I just thank God that He got me going in the right direction.
But it's much better to vent on this board about those intense feelings than to LB to your spouse. I totally sympathise and understand anyone who has a need to let those feelings out. Much healthier to get it out here than blow up at your spouse.
I don't believe many of the people here bad mouth the OP to make themselves feel better about their self, they just need to get it off their chest, and that does make you feel better.
Love in Christ,
Miss M

jamup. I agree and I don't know anyone enough like Christ to perform perfectly. We are only to strive to be christlike. And pray for him to make us more like him and less of us.
Also, yes, the WS and OP do cause us to sin as well. I know I would never have had thoughts I've had if not for the pain. So sin leads to sin!
But recently, I gave it over to God, Again! and decided I will not take it back again. I took a good look at how their actions caused me to behave in an Unchristian manner. Well, I am only human, and many of the people in bible had their burdens of sin to carry.
To allow these selfish, uncaring people to drag us down with them just adds insult to injury!
I also prayed for God to reach my H, for I cannot change him, only God can. And first his heart must be open and willing to change for better. I see it happening and our marriage is healing much faster now than it could have before.
Yes,I still have days it bothers me terribly, and thoughts come, But I have determined I must rebuke it and begin to pray when that happens. This helps turn the negative to positive and is tremendous help for me.
I'd not advocating all should do as I do. Just sharing what is working for me after so long of hurting and not allowing God to be my center. Jesus is the answer for me!
God bless, LouLou

<small>[ March 04, 2004, 11:41 PM: Message edited by: A whole new me ]</small>

MFC-B, you are welcome.
I talk a lot, I vent a lot, and sometimes I wish to reply to many on the post, but I can't remember all the names once I get to post. LOL
Anything I write I intend for others in hopes it somehow can bring solace or at least get feed back that helps me too.
That's what we're all here for is the support. I read here a lot each day and over on recovery. So many I've learned from, but have not always posted to them.
I just want to say to all, I truly appreciate the sharing, and opening of hearts here.
Everyone here is truly a support.To be so open and bear your souls is not always easy. I see them trying to at least be honest and share something of themselves that may help others know what or even what not to do.
God bless to all, LouLou