Go Plan B with an emphasis on letting her know that you want to work on marriage and that you would want to work things out once her and OM are over. Wait out the relationship to break up, and then if she comes back to you, then decide whether you still want her or not.

I don't think Plan A is helping you much. Keep up the parts that help you (which is what you should focus on anyway), but she's way too selfish in a materialistic way for Plan A to touch her. I didn't notice much about her and the kids, so I'm assuming they don't matter much to her (at least to the way they should).

The only other comments are: try not to give her reasons not to come back (i.e. "that's not me and I could never be that way") and consider setting the story straight about the "mutual" separation. It's the damn truth that she left you and you might want to pick up your backbone and be willing to be honest about that. I think you're way past the point where you should cover for her about that. You may think you're not LBing, but you're still hurting your chances.

<small>[ March 20, 2003, 04:21 PM: Message edited by: est ]</small>

Sounds to me like your wife has the best of both worlds, you to talk and enjoy, and the other man's money, and she only has to meet the needs of 1 of you, if that. You have been in Plan A forever. I wouldn't even begin to say I am any kind of expert, but just a question. When do you think it is time to Plan B and expose this affair for what it is? Your wife KNOWS the changes you have made, that you love her and would like her back. Now might be the time to show her that you can live without her and are ready to go on with you life. When she is FORCED to have ALL Her needs met by the other man, that is when ALL HELL can break lose and she can start coming out of the fog. When?

EST,

Thanks for the response. There are no kids which I consider a blessing. I am seriously considering plan B it is just that I see the relationship with the OM falling apart and i don't want to appear to close the door just when it may be opening. Right now i am the one who gets the fun conversations and he gets the headaches and fights.

SSTNT

It has been 4 months of plan A and i know it is drawing to a close but I just don't know if I am ready yet.

"Now might be the time to show her that you can live without her and are ready to go on with you life."

I think I am doing that although I am not sure if I am ready to close her out completely.

PB

True, with no kids Plan B might lose you the connection you have with her and it might be good to wait...but for how long? Set goals for yourself, and if things don't continue to look good or if she goes back to the OM (can we change the acromym, maybe SOB), be ready and willing to Plan B, for your self-respect as much as anything else. At some point, you'll need to get on with your life, with or without her. Make yourself strong, and NOT dependent on her, and that by itself might help pull her finally out of the fog.

Hi PB,
I asked you some things and then I left on a trip and never got back to you. Sorry, I should have said something.

There is plan A, and there is plan B.

Right now you are in A. You know that OM meets some needs that you cannot meet. You also know that there is trouble in paradise. I am not sure if you feel you have done a good plan A long enough to go to B yet. B is used when the WS is trying to decide between OM and the BS. It forces the OP to meet all her needs and that is usually impossible.

If you intend to stay in plan A, you need to meet as many of those needs as you can in a kind and loving way. ( You already know this, I am just reviewing.)

I don't know what you are doing for convesation, but she still likes to talk to you so I would continue any way you can. E-mail, phone, or in person.

Admiration can be done through the back door by tellin her what you miss about her. You know what you miss so that shouldn't be hard.
" I miss the back rubs you used to give me, you are so good at it." Or
I miss those long talks we used to have, I so enjoy the sound of your voice, you have such a pretty voice." Note that these are just examples, you have to come up with the real ones.

I would make a list and write out some of what you could say, and even practice it out loud so it comes natural. I am not kidding, it really helps. If you are going to stay in A, lets do some really good work in case you have to go to plan B later. It may be with the fights they are having that A will work, I am not good enough to call it. You need to be doing a really good job of it though so she is drawn to you when OM LB's ( and it will come regularly now, and he will continue to attempt to buy him self out of it.)

I am glad you have found your faith again, it has always worked for me to. That is one thing that will draw her to you that she won't admit to in the near future. She won't admit it because it will will increase her guilt. Don't draw attention to this one, she will see it in how you live and in increased self confidence.

Remember not to be really concerned about what she says and does from day to day, that will continue to change.

I can't but think you are doing things much better, I hope and pray for your success.

SS

<small>[ March 25, 2003, 02:17 PM: Message edited by: still seeking ]</small>

bump

SS

Thanks for the reply, I have been sick with the stomach flu. I will get back to you later when I am feeling better and have some time.

I just wanted to let you know i had read your response

PB

Hi PB,
Take your time to get feeling better - being sick always sucks but it's worse when there is emotional stress.

I was hoping to get more responses from others with that bump, perhaps this will help also.

SS

Well I am feeling better (somewhat). First an update, and then answers. This week I caught a nasty stomach Flu. My wife called while I was home sick and we had a long talk. I shared more than I should have and in my sick state probably came off as rather desperate. Anyway it sounds like things with OM are kind of in Flux. She sees him but is not upset if she doesn't. She figures that when that relationship ends she will just find someone else new (which she encouraged me to do) and that I am no longer an option to her. Now some answers

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">“There is plan A, and there is plan B. Right now you are in A. You know that OM meets some needs that you cannot meet. You also know that there is trouble in paradise. “ </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">That much is true and I understand it I think. The process is just wearing me out.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">“I am not sure if you feel you have done a good plan A long enough to go to B yet. B is used when the WS is trying to decide between OM and the BS. It forces the OP to meet all her needs and that is usually impossible. “</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I feel like I don’t get much of a chance to do good Plan A as she lives elsewhere and I don’t get to see her much. Also when I do see her she always brings up OM and her current lifestyle. (Guys hitting on her at the bar, the fun she is having, how great her job is and how she could never fit into the church thing)

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I don't know what you are doing for conversation, but she still likes to talk to you so I would continue any way you can. E-mail, phone, or in person. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">It is hard see above. I try to steer the conversations away from this but inevitable she brings it up.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Admiration can be done through the back door by telling her what you miss about her. You know what you miss so that shouldn't be hard.
" I miss the back rubs you used to give me, you are so good at it." Or
I miss those long talks we used to have, I so enjoy the sound of your voice, you have such a pretty voice." Note that these are just examples, you have to come up with the real ones. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">It is funny but when I compliment her on looks or how smart she is etc… she just says, “lots of people have been telling me that lately” or “so I’ve been told”. When I told her on Monday how I missed how we used to look after each other when we were sick and how we would go for walks and hang out etc. she said that “that’s just normal stuff that everybody does” and when I responded that doing those things with her made them special she said “find someone else to do them with”

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I would make a list and write out some of what you could say, and even practice it out loud so it comes natural. I am not kidding, it really helps. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I haven’t written things out but I do think about what I will say to her next time I talk to her all the time.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> If you are going to stay in A, lets do some really good work in case you have to go to plan B later. It may be with the fights they are having that A will work, I am not good enough to call it. You need to be doing a really good job of it though so she is drawn to you when OM LB's ( and it will come regularly now, and he will continue to attempt to buy him self out of it.) </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">The thing is that she doesn’t even see me as an option. She says that when she is done with OM she will just be “single” for a while and do whatever she wants with out having to worry about what anyone thinks. She honestly seems to be done with marriage.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I am glad you have found your faith again, it has always worked for me to. That is one thing that will draw her to you that she won't admit to in the near future. She won't admit it because it will increase her guilt. Don't draw attention to this one, she will see it in how you live and in increased self confidence. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I am trying not to but it is hard, as this has become a bit of a focal point in my life. Also she continually brings it up as she tries to justify why we will never be able to work it out.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Remember not to be really concerned about what she says and does from day to day, that will continue to change.

I can't but think you are doing things much better, I hope and pray for your success.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Thanks, I do appreciate the responses.

PB

Well last night was a disaster. She called about 9:30 pm to talk. Actually she called to tell me about her weekend, which involved her getting really drunk, and screwing around with some 19 yr old kid brother of a friend of hers. (Not that she has really broken up with OM #1) Anyway the phone call dissolved in to a conversation about how she has no interest in our future, about how she is single and can do what ever the h**l she wants, and about how she will never be into God and so we will never get back together. That I have no idea what she wants in life and should stop trying to tell her what I think is best. Basically she attempted to (and succeeded) in pushing all my buttons in under an hour. I barely slept last night and have now come to the conclusion that it is Plan B time

I can’t take this anymore. I wish I had gone to plan B two weeks ago. I thought that if she broke up with OM #1 there might be a chance but it appears now that instead of seeing if I could fill the needs she has she went for this kid. This is so hard

Help

PB

Hi PB,
Sounds like a rough time.

Actually she called to tell me about her weekend, which involved her getting really drunk, and screwing around with some 19 yr old kid brother of a friend of hers.............. Basically she attempted to (and succeeded) in pushing all my buttons in under an hour.

I wonder if she is miserable and so she wants you to be also. What she is doing has all the signs of someone seeking more and more thrills trying to find happiness while doing things that prevent it. It does look like she is pushing your buttons on purpose. I wish you would just tell her that it makes you sad, that you would love a chance to make her happy, but that it is her life and hang up.

I barely slept last night...........
Don't blame you one bit. Don't know how you could have slept.

..........and have now come to the conclusion that it is Plan B time.
If it is, then it is.

Make your letter a good love letter. Tell her the reason for NC, and also tell her what it would take for you to discuss getting back together.

PB, you know God is there, you know he cares about you and he still cares about your W. We do have free will, she gets to choose what she will do, but we don't know if it is over. Keep up your prayers, have some hope. If we find out later that it is over, God can and will heal your heart. It's probably too soon to say that, but you know it is true.

You know from reading here that your W is doing what many, many WS's do. It is the same in almost every case, not out of the ordinary or worse. She is saying what they all say. Even the ones that come back say these same things.

This is so hard
It is hard to see you suffer, it is hard to see her ruin her life. Pray for her, she needs it. I will pray for you both.

Perhaps it would do you well to read the story of Job and remember that you have a father that cares about you and that even through trials, he will take care of you. I don't know how long it will be, but someday you will be alright again. Have some hope, and a little faith.

SS

<small>[ March 31, 2003, 11:48 AM: Message edited by: still seeking ]</small>

It's one thing to provide an emotionally safe environment for your WW to share her feelings about problems she's having with OM and another to permit her to cruelly call you just to rub your nose about her shenanigangs with other men.

Be careful with allowing yourself continued exposure with these emotionally toxic conversations. Your love for your WW may die and then plan B will become irrelevant.

<small>[ March 31, 2003, 12:15 PM: Message edited by: T00MuchCoffeeMan ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">SS
I wonder if she is miserable and so she wants you to be also. What she is doing has all the signs of someone seeking more and more thrills trying to find happiness while doing things that prevent it. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I wonder that too. I also wonder about her self-esteem. I tried to let her know how precious and special she was but she wants nothing to do with that. She wants no validation from me at all

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> It does look like she is pushing your buttons on purpose. I wish you would just tell her that it makes you sad, that you would love a chance to make her happy, but that it is her life and hang up. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I know I should have done that I was just to stunned or afraid of her reaction. She stills knows me very well and is still in control. Which is one of the reasons that Plan B has become necessary. I can’t go on like this anymore.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Don't blame you one bit. Don't know how you could have slept. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yeah I spent all night praying then dozing off then waking up again and praying and then dozing off again.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Make your letter a good love letter. Tell her the reason for NC, and also tell her what it would take for you to discuss getting back together. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I will I started working on it the other weekend and I wish I had finished it and sent it off but I didn’t and so had to suffer trough last night.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> PB, you know God is there, you know he cares about you and he still cares about your W. We do have free will, she gets to choose what she will do, but we don't know if it is over. Keep up your prayers, have some hope. If we find out later that it is over, God can and will heal your heart. It's probably too soon to say that, but you know it is true. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I know that is the beauty of Plan B to me that I am forced to leave it in God’s hands as I can no longer be involved except to pray. I also know that I will heal in time whether with my wife or not.

I prayed that God would give me a wife who is a new creation in him. That we will be able to come together spotless in his site. That to me is a comforting thought and I believe that he will. I just hope that my wife comes to that point.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> You know from reading here that your W is doing what many, many WS's do. It is the same in almost every case, not out of the ordinary or worse. She is saying what they all say. Even the ones that come back say these same things. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I know but it doesn’t make it any easier

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> It is hard to see you suffer, it is hard to see her ruin her life. Pray for her, she needs it. I will pray for you both.
Perhaps it would do you well to read the story of Job and remember that you have a father that cares about you and that even through trials, he will take care of you. I don't know how long it will be, but someday you will be alright again. Have some hope, and a little faith.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Thanks for the response I appreciate the boost and I will post my Plan B letter here when I am ready with a draft. Also any help on my post from before would be great too.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Coffeeman

Be careful with allowing yourself continued exposure with these emotionally toxic conversations. Your love for your WW may die and then plan B will become irrelevant. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I know that is why I feel that the time for Plan B has come. I don’t think I can take anymore of this and still feel for her the way that I do. It is going to take prayer and careful wording but I believe it is now time to start writing that letter for real.

PB

Here is my first draft at a Plan B letter. Please make any suggestions (be cruel if you have to)

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Dear WIFE,

You are the most amazing and precious woman I have ever met. The sight of your smile and the sound of your laugh can brighten my spirit in a way that no other can. You have bewitched me. You have taken my heart. I love you, my gift, my treasure from God.

Our current situation and your continued relationships with OM and others continually cause me pain that I never thought possible. In order to preserve any chance that we have for the future I have to ask that until you are ready to commit to rebuilding or relationship and that you no longer contact me.

If there is anything you need to discuss you can pass a message through FRIEND who has agreed to serve in this manner.

It is hard to believe that we started this adventure five years ago. These days I hold a hope for the future that perhaps I didn’t have before. I believe that we have a chance to take something that appears to be broken and rebuild it on a solid foundation that will stand the tests of time. I love you and there is nothing that I want more than to spend the rest of my life with you.

I love you and I pray that we will spend the rest of our days in each others arms were we belong

All my Love

PB
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

<bump>

You might want to actually put a bit of something into it.

A Plan B letter is NOT simply saying separate until you end the affair.

You are the most amazing and precious woman I have ever met. The sight of your smile and the sound of your laugh can brighten my spirit in a way that no other can. You have bewitched me. You have taken my heart. I love you, my gift, my treasure from God.
Okay.

So now talk a bit about what YOU have done in the relationship to get it where it is. Problems you had in not meeting her needs and now you realize it and are doing what you can to educate yourself & learn how to be a better partner.

Our current situation
is not why you are separating. It is the following,

and your continued relationships with OM and others continually cause me pain that I never thought possible. In order to preserve any chance that we have for the future I have to ask that until you are ready to commit to rebuilding or relationship and that you no longer contact me.
Explain that this is NOT done to punish or hurt her but to preserve the love you have left.

If there is anything you need to discuss
Leave this out. Change it to, “When you are willing to completely separate from loser & take steps necessary to work through our problems, then we can discuss reconciliation”

you can pass a message through FRIEND who has agreed to serve in this manner.

It is hard to believe that we started this adventure five years ago. These days I hold a hope for the future that perhaps I didn’t have before.
Explain why you hold hope.

I believe that we have a chance to take something that appears to be broken and rebuild it on a solid foundation that will stand the tests of time.
You don’t have a chance until she does something. Just tell her it is possible. Change to, “I believe that we can take something...”

The rest is good.

<small>[ April 01, 2003, 03:46 PM: Message edited by: Chris (CA123) ]</small>

I think Chris's suggestions are very good, don't have much to add.

I never did comment on your other post. It seemed that you had a hard time with her negative comments and didn't know what to say to them. Almost like you conceded defeat.

Most of the success in turning around a marriage gone south comes from strength of mind. Doing what needs to be done no matter what the WS says or does. It is hard to continue when you don't know the outcome.

We learn in life that doing the right thing doesn't always get the desired result. The trick is to do the right things always anyway, so that we can live with ourselves no matter what else happens to us.

You are trying to do that, and I commend you for it. I know it's hard, that part probably won't change for a while.

I also recommend you come up with some closing lines in case you get stuck again talking on the phone in an increasinly bad conversation. Deliver the lines and hang up, don't hang around and take it.

How are you doing today?

SS

Hey PB,
I saw this post from Orchid on another thread and I think it will help you right now.

I don't think Orchid will mind if I quote most of it here.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
Quote from Orchid on marathonMan's thread.

Hey MarathonMan,

When your W babbles all that stuff, babble back. She tells you she doesn't want to be married to you. Well tell her right now you don't want to be married to someone in her state of mind either. (you have to mean this).

If she further states that she sees your changes, knows they are good but is afraid you will go back to your 'bad' ways. Tell her, well that is possible, I am afraid you will do the same.

See these are classic WS lines. They are meant to push our buttons and produce emense pain. It does right?

Know this, then learn how to minimize it, avoid it and give it back. That will help you. NOw you may lead to separation even D but it was going to go there anyway as long as things stayed the way they are now.

Some of us think we have to go kicking and screaming...... all the way to the D. That is needed for most of us, esp at the beginning, eventually that need gives way to the BS' personal needs.

So right now, if you know you did the best you could or the most you could due circumstances, stop beating yourself up. She is going to go anyways, even if you did a perfect plan A. You are not a failure. She is..............
take care,
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

Well I feel ike a jerk. I bump my message and dont reply for three days. Sorry about that my PC died but I have it back now. I will post Plan B letter take 2 later today. And SS I am feeling a lot better.

PB

If you think we won't like you now, you are a little off.

It would take a lot more than being gone a few days.

Cash would work.

Oh, gee whiz, this is about my third bad joke today, I need a writer.

Hey whippitt........................

SS

Oh, BTW, glad to hear you are doing better.