no contact all all yet except briefly about the D. her sister told me that W said the letter woke her up a bit. she's still blaming this whole mess on ME?! and blames ME for stealing her family (her family has been on my side all along).

<small>[ February 09, 2003, 06:34 PM: Message edited by: jack55 ]</small>

Jack
The fact that you are asking the question probably means you already know the answer. This question has been asked many time before. Most BSs are tempting to go dating. I can't say I'm not tempted myself. But at the end of the day you are still married and you have said in your post that she will probably want you back in 6 months. What will dating do to your chances of reconciliation?
NS

You don't want to do this. Your are a good person. You don't want to fall into a trap of betrayal. Be a christian man. Look at your vows, and stay away from this woman. I would on the other hand, get a new lawyer, or talk to your lawyer about the feelings you have towards the secretary. Either you want to help your marriage and your wife, or you don't care.

thanks, it's erased from my mind.

i am jsut confused and still not thinking clearly.

Gosh Jack I have to post to you. I saw your post re: going to Plan B and before I could even respond you went to Plan B. Slow it down a bit will ya?

OK I've never met you- but I have a picture of you in my mind. I'm imagining you as- a successful businessman, good at sales, driven, impatient, tough, good at getting his point across, but not a good listener (hey you said it yourself). You are probably attractive enough, in possession of all the material trappings. I don't imagine that you are very introspective, the type to self analyze, the type to pay alot of attention to the psychological nuances. You like to have a good time, go out with friends, maybe with the guys. Am I completely off base here?

If I understand it right, your Dday was December 5. You say you did Plan A. It's now about 5 or 6 weeks later. But I know you spent part of that time drinking alot and venting anger (now I'm a BS too, so I'm not blaming you). I don't know if you had much time to do a really good plan A.
Recently you made the point of emphasizing to your wife that you will not be there to bail her out. I worry that you hadn't sufficiently made the point to your W that you are THERE for her before you practiced this form of tough love.

Plan A does the following (and yes- it is a tool for negotiating an end to the affair- that's exactly what it's for)
-it lets your spouse know you truly love them, not just through words but through actions. You NOT OM are really the guy that loves her.
-you are able to acknowledge where things went wrong in the marriage, and articulate your vision for how to fix it/and get their input about these things as well. Meaning listen to them and talk with them. Without LBs.
-you are able to communicate to your spouse that you will be able to forgive them, that you will not be torturing them for their mistake if they stay with you, that it's safe to come home
-you are able to show them changes in your behavior so they know you mean business
-you are able to reconnect with them, remind them of the past history together, of the dreams you shared together, of the future with you they may be sacrificing

all of this takes time to do. It has to be done gently, subtly, and delicately. It won't work all at once because it has to penetrate the fog. That's why Harley recommends 6 months of Plan A before going to B. Not all of us have the stamina for the full 6 months, and some of us stay in Plan A way way way too long. But tell me, how many weeks did you CONSISTENTLY do paln A for?

It's my opinion that it's a little too soon for Plan B. I can understand why you want to keep the divorce in motion from a money standpoint. Well you may end up keeping your $$$ and losing your wife. I don't think it's wrong to protect yourself. But I would try to downplay the D as much as possible.

I am not justifying your wife's behavior in any way. But I will say, it seems to me you do want to get divorced. You've already filed, and now you're even dating. Remember it may not work out with this OM but it doesn't mean your wife will come back to YOU. But maybe you're okay with that, as long as you gain the financial advantage.

If you are really interested in saving your marriage- I do recommend the following-
1) Consult Steve Harley for advice.
2) Get some individual counseling for yourself so you can really look into yourself and figure out what happened in the perfect marriage. Was your wife able to talk to you- did you listen? Look hard at yourself and your habits- even if you end up D'd it will help yourself in your next relationship to understand how this happened.
3) Do not date under any circumstances. Surely you can be without a relationship for a few months until this is all sorted out.
4) Reevaluate whether Plan B is the right thing. I don't know how you'll go back on your Plan B letter- maybe Steve Harley could advise you on that. YOu need to come up with an excuse and don't mention this website either. Not good for your W to think your heartfelt letter was scripted by a website. But, don't rush out of B before you have thought it out. Just let it all percolate a bit.

Hope I haven't come across too tough. Hope things will work out for you, W and the M.

Uh just want to point out in certain cases Steve H does not recommend 6 months Plan A. Mine was 2 months. Which I did, then straight to Plan B.

thanks for the advice.

actually, normally, i am a good listener, otherwise you have my personality down pat. i just haven't practiced one of my best traits in here or with family and friends' recommendations. people here think i should save the marriage, if i can, and most friends and family say "bag it". easy for them to say, eh?

half the day, no 3/4 of the day, i want her back so bad i can't stand it, and the rest of the time i don't want her back because of what she did. i'm not sure i would be able to live with the thought of the A in my mind all the time and all the counciling and, and, and, and. but, that's later anyway. we haven't gotten that far yet. i don't want her to come back just because of financial reasons. she's gonna have to prove to me that she's coming back for the right reasons. and *I* have been the one that's trying to get *HER* back. shouldn't it be the other way around. with plan A *I* was taking all the blame and now she is running with THAT! i am totally confused.

how quickly do you think i could get an appointment with steve? i am going to vegas next week for 7 days and my lawyer seems to think we might get a court date as soon as 2 weeks from now. i want the divorce to cover my a$$ because i do not trust my W at all right now. i know the stats say reconciliation after the D is not likely but it's something i think i have to do to protect ME. like i said, i don't trust her now, after this mess, and don't want her to take advantage. i am a mess.

she's making it out like i drove her to this and maybe she's right but she sure handled it wrong. yes, she's saying that i didn't pay enough attention to her, that i didn't give her the affection that she needs, that i never talked to her enough. that's 'kinda' true but we went to lunch several times a week and dinner several times a week. we spent all summer driving around picking out all the stuff for the new home. geez, i was with her and spending more time with her the last 6 months than i have the last 2 years. i think she uses these as excuses to justify what she did because she KNOWS she f&^%ked up.

no, i'm not going to date. that was an impulse thing and i knew it was a bad idea.

i think i'll try to see what steve says and any other suggestions i can get from you folks. i better start listening to people that have been there and done that.

i'm all ears.

thanks again,

sadjack

can't post right now- will do it tomorrow. sit tight and don't do anything rash

I've found it easy to schedule with Steve Harley within a few days of my phone call.

He is not necessarily recommending 6 months of Plan A. In fact, he has not used that term with me. However, he does recommend patience with a WS. He gives very direct, practical advice. He is very helpful!!!

I don't know your story, so I won't even attempt to give you any type of advice about what you should or shouldn't do about your marriage.

However...I was so pleased to see that you stepped back and looked at what you were doing...and stopped.

As a BS, we really have a problem with feeling we're "ok"...even when we know in our heads that we're still attractive, can still make a head turn...we wonder in our hearts. I am sure that the attraction this woman feels towards such a nice man as yourself, didn't hurt your ego one little bit! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

I am sure that this woman in the office is nice, and it's great that she has been kind and supportive of you...you need that. It was an impulse to ask her out (altho, a trip to vegas is a little more then a "date")...one you began questioning shortly after.

Please be kind when you talk to this woman. Be honest and tell her that while you think she's very nice, you're not ready to jump into another relationship or even dating until you've straightened out your life and gotten all the baggaged squared away.

I do accept that today it is not the "sin" it was to began dating before a divorce is final. However, even today, until you've had time to process everything, to work on whatever issues you may need to work on, learning about yourself...you shouldn't drag some unsuspecting innocent OP into the mix. It's not fair to you...and it's not fair to them. YOU need time...a new relationship too soon will only be burdened with the wounds which have not as yet had time to heal.

the date was to be when i got back from vegas, not to go to vegas with me. damn, i don't move THAT fast <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

plan b contact broken by W this morning. she called to tell me somebody's mother died. i don't even know who this person is. then we talked about S's dance last night and did he have fun, etc. then she offered to make me chili tomorrow and bring it over. her chili is my favorite and she's always made me chili when i was down or to make-up or whatever. now i feel like calling her back and talking all day long. sheese!

i do need to talk to steve because i have screwed up everything this site has taught me. i sent in the form to schedule an appointment with steve. i'll let you know how it goes.

thanks

Hi Jack,

The chilli situation sounds very promising.! I would suggest you make no further decisions until you have spoken to Harley. Things have all happened so fast with you. The stakes are high here. Do nothing until you have examined each action from all angles. And do listen to the Mbers here-espoir's post in particular was on the money!

Good luck.
Deluded

jack55,

Good to hear again from you .... don't be hard to yourself !. Many of even veteran MB'er started with many mistakes that their plan A full of holes like a swiss cheese. That includes me too <img border="0" title="" alt="[Embarrassed]" src="images/icons/blush.gif" /> . I am glad to take the step to see SH, call first thing Monday ... email is too slow. If it is not for your M it is for you to heal and move on w/ or w/o your WW.

Now one thing that you should learn by now ... SLOWDOWN !!! LOL !!!. If you are not sure ... do nothing !!!. This includes your plan B !, if you are not sure about plan B ... do nothing. This is my 2¢. Get anti depression med, talk to your doctor. Meanwhile, forget about your plan B ... your WW break it ... it is very normal. She tested the water. Don't call her, don't say "I love you" or "I want you back" no R talk !!!. If she starts talking R, you have to be ready. If she still talks Fogese, do not engage it, just change the subject !. If she told you she wants to work it out .... be ready. How ?. You have to make a list of retributions that you want your W to make you feel safe to take her back. ***WARNING**** Be honest w/ yourself, don't think if she would only if she could. Lay it out for her.

Rememeber also no LB.

-rh-

Jack, call the 800 number on Monday. I found I didn't get as fast of a response to the form. The people are very nice. They will schedule you in for an appointment. The way it works is that you sched an appt. They give you an 800 number to call at the time of your appt. Steve tends to run late as the day wears on- factor that in to your calculations. He is a really nice guy. I've talked to a number of counselors and he is special.

Secondly, buy the book Surviving An Affair. Torn Asunder, After the Affair are also good.

Thirdly, very good about your wife calling, and the chili. When you see her, just be nice, calm, and interact with her. Put the A and the D out of your mind. If she tries to bring that stuff up you can say, you know it's been crazy in the last month- I just want to BE with you for a moment and enjoy it and not think about all that. Try to make a few jokes, to listen to her, let her talk, pretend it's a date with someone you don't know. Talk about neutral stuff. Think of stuff ahead of time- movies, stuff you have in common, stuff you 2 usually enjoy discussing. Get her input on stuff from your life together- what color towels to buy for the new bathroom you built together. Talk about your son. Work in a few compliments. "You look nice", or "I like that dress" if she's wearing something new. Or if she made a good decision about the house you built together- "wow the kitchen idea you had works so well, you were absolutely right to get the sink you chose"

If marriage stuff comes up, don't get angry and don't get pushy. You can say you miss her, that you're hurting, that you don't understand it but maybe this is what she needs to be happy and you want her to be happy. But you love her and you want your marriage with her, if the 2 of you can make it into something fulfilling and wonderful for both of you. If she asks about the D, just act as though it's out of your hands for now, your lawyer is taking care of it, you don't even really want to think about it. Be restrained- less is more- don't spill your guts out. And even if she says stuff to provoke you, upset you DON'T let her goad you into a fight.

Another question- where is she living right now? I know OM lives with his mother. Did she rent an apartment? Are they living together? Is she staying somewhere temporarily?

Got 2 Go- more later.

This is not a slam, it is more for your introspection (looking a yourself).

If you are going nothing to slow it down/stop it, & asking women out on dates, why are you in Plan B?

call the 800 number on Monday.
Mondays a holiday, don't know if they will be in. When you call, don't leave a message. Call back until you speak with someone.

<small>[ January 19, 2003, 01:25 PM: Message edited by: Chris (CA123) ]</small>

espoir,

i'll take your advice. thanks!

she moved into an apartment and he stays there half the time. from my wife's tone, she's getting tired of this A already. she even said that she thinks the "fog" is lifting. i think she's scared.

i'll call the 800 number first thing tomorrow.

thanks again to everybody for the advice.

She probably is getting scared. What kind of commitment has she made to the apartment? Has she signed a lease and for how long? Does she work?

Didn't address some of this stuff before.
#1- Most friends and family may say dump her, but they are NOT the ones who have to be divorced for the rest of their lives. Maybe getting divorced in your situation is the right thing to do, but a 14 year apparently happy marriage/family counts for something. You need some time to figure out how YOU feel. And YOUR feelings are what count.

#2- My H's A was with a married woman. She had her issues with her H, thought she'd solve them by grabbing my H who she thought was the better deal. Her H was devastated. Both me and her H could see where things had declined in our Ms and allowed our spouses to become vulnerable. He saw where he went wrong- and showed her his changes. Gradually she saw my H was not the answer (well, my H wouldn't leave me and that helped). She had a fantasy of my H, just as my H had of her.

I remember asking OW's H at one point why he wanted her back and he said:
"She's special. When I married her I said I would stick with her through thick and thin- and if this isn't the thin part what is?"
We have no contact now for one year and I hope they are doing well. I will always remember his words.

#3- Wayward wives are a certain deal. Their affairs can be hard to stop once their hearts are involved. From this board I would say there are some who are intent on crashing and burning. Others become extremely remorseful and go back to their Ms and it all works out. If you love her still, you can't be afraid to try even if your heart does get hurt. Don't protect your emotions too much- I think that's the male instinct. Even if you try and you get shot down, you will know you did the right thing. You won't have regrets and questions later.

Hopefully your wife will wake up fast and will show remorse. Just set in your own mind what your boundaries are for her returning to the marriage. No contact of course, and marriage counseling not to punish her but to get on track so this won't happen again. You need to understand why she felt so empty that this would happen. She needs to understand your hurt and know how to deal with it.

Don't expect immediate results. This is not called the roller coaster for nothing. Your wife's situation does sound like classic MLC. Try to figure specifically what was missing and show her you can supply it. Did your wife feel like she had a voice in the house stuff- or was it your project and you were boss? Was there conflict? Or do you think she said god I've reached the pinnacle with this new house but I still have that empty feeling inside?

Remember you have the history with her, the memories- remind her of that subtly.

thank you, espoir!

She probably is getting scared. What kind of commitment has she made to the apartment? Has she signed a lease and for how long? Does she work?

she signed a one year lease and yes she works.

Did your wife feel like she had a voice in the house stuff- or was it your project and you were boss? Was there conflict? Or do you think she said god I've reached the pinnacle with this new house but I still have that empty feeling inside?

she definitely had a voice in the house stuff. i pretty much let her pick out everything. she claims that i didn't talk to her enough and that i didn't give her enough affection. she might be right about the lack of conversation but affection she got. she feels that i didn't spend enough time with her. i think she got bored and this new (temporary) life-style makes her feel good. who knows?

she never drank, but now she drinks. she never did drugs, but now does drugs. she never smoked cigarettes, but now smokes. she hated the bar scene, but now is in the bar scene. she turned 40 and flipped out.

one thing that scares me is that she's hard-headed and usually sticks to her guns when she makes a decision. she HATES to be wrong and might do anything in her power to make this A work. when she's determined about something, she usually gets it. although, this life-style she's living is NOT what she truely believes in. that i am sure of. also, i can't imagine that this 'ladies man' will be faithful to her with his background. he's 29, usually has a different woman every month, has 2 children from different women and works in a 20-something bar. there's gonna be a lot of tight bodied young babes coming in there this summer and he's 29 and W is 40. i just can't imagine this thing working out. they have absolutely nothing in common except the sex. and, she has to take care of HIM. she left a 5000 square foot home, a man that she knows loves her, to a small 2 BR apartment and some guy that is in this for the sex. i just don't get it.

my 'rules' for moving back to me?

- quit work.
- somehow assure me that she won't ever have any contact with him ever again.
- counciling. jointly and separately.
- (possibly move far away)

man, i KNOW i'm going to have problems in my head about the infidelity when and if she comes back. i'll just have to get counciling to help me through that part of it.

thanks again <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

i was able to get an appointment with steve for tomorrow at 6am. hopefully he'll have the answers.

thanks

Re: the problems in your head re the infidelity. Cross that bridge when you come to it. If your marriage does recover, there will be ways to deal with that, you can get over it, many people on this site have. No it's not easy.

Your wife's behavior changes sound pretty crazy so you just have to look at what she's doing as akin to a nervous breakdown. Basically MLC. Think of it like this. If your wife had come down with a mental illness, say manic depressive, you wouldn't abandon her immediately because of her illness. On the other hand, if she was manic, you wouldn't let her have your credit cards to go out on a spending spree. So you can give her some time to come out of this, but protect yourself at the same time.

Are her smoking/drinking/barhopping behaviors continuing at the same rate or is she slowing down a bit?

How did the chili go?

You'll be divorced quickly- you have a month to Plan A her like hell until that happens. And once it does, who knows, maybe it can still work out. Or you can move on knowing you did all you could.

About her job? Why would you want her to quit? Did she work prior to the A? Did she meet the OM through work? Does she love her work?