Dear Lisa,

I can feel your hurt is so raw. I hope you feel a little better today. There are so many questions aren't there, and each new discovery cuts to the quick.

I just want to encourage you to bide your time-don't make any decisions whilst you are so emotional. You have been so strong and optimistic-give it time to let your emotions and thoughts settle.

I am thinking of you.

Deluded.

PS Nick-those great things about England you mentioned reminded me of why I love the place so much too! Thanks! Why on earth would I want to live somewhere near the beach with a Mediterranean climate anyway?

Hey Lisa-

It sounds like the last few days have been tough for you and rightfully so, as I can imagine how these recent revelations regarding your H would cause a great deal of distress. Just keep in mind you're on the right path and take comfort in all the positive changes you've made in your life! It's obvious that you have alot to offer and if your H can't recognize it in time, he's going to end up regretting it. Wishing you well from the SNOWY SE US!

Darn, just deleted my reply - I hate it when that happens!!

Listen, Nick, Deluded, you psuedo-Brits are the worst!! Even though you have "Get out of England Free" cards, you still moan <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> You love it really.....

Deluded you are right. It is easy when you are angry and in pain to say "Bugger this for a game of marbles, I've had enough, that's it". I won't do anything rash, but I know that things need to change, for me more than anything. It's not right to be sitting here worrying, worrying about things I can't change.

Nick - ha ha. It's OK for you blokes to eat Nandos, but for me, a nice facial or manicure would be better. I'm booked in for Saturday!!

Neesha - thank you for your beautiful and kind words. It always amazes me how much people have within themselves to give to others, even when their own situation sucks. I'm lucky, I have so many real friends, but it always seems that it's the same old same old, and I'm sure most of them just don't understand why I've tried. I do worry that I could have done more. In the first few months after d-day when H came back from Germany, I didn't do anything, except stayed with him and kept saying "Let's just give ourselves 6 months to settle our emotions and see if we can work things out after that". I was deeply in withdrawal, H was livid and hurt(I don't know if you remember some of those posts, but there were incidents all the time), he shouted at me, I got defensive, because I couldn't do anything else. With time, I realised that at the very least, I did love him, and I needed to try harder to see if we could work things out. Yes, one night I treated him very badly, and it was after that night, that I knew how much I needed to do. Since then, yes I have tried. But it's still not enough for him...Maybe if I'd done something sooner things would be different.

LIR - thank you for stopping by. You make some very astute comments. Firstly, I have nothing other than his word that he did not sleep with her back in November - is his word worth much? You are also right about how I could or could not cope with an EA. I know that night after we met, he did not ring to talk about the weather. He must have chosen her to spill the beans about us, our M, my efforts etc. and that is immensely painful.

You are right too about not being able to change him or what he thinks. I tell people this often enough, but seem to somehow forget it when it comes to me. If I do X, he'll be pleased, if I do Y, he'll be angry, he'll like A, but won't like B. I also think that my actions aren't even so much about whether or not he is "foggy". I think he cut off from me months ago. Let's not forget his refusal to go to MC has been since August. I saw him distance way before her, I saw his continuing anger and upset at what I had done, I saw little of the signs of love and care that he first showed when come back (somewhat sporadically), but even much less in the last few months when he was home. I saw an e-mail that I sent him on 1 November - it was telling him what I was doing to try and how I care, how sorry I was about things (he had gone through my phone the night before and got angry, accussing me of a secret life). The mail sounded pretty sincere and as if I was trying damn hard, and that is nearly 3 months ago.

"When you can let go of how what you do and say might affect him, then you are really free to be you - and you are a strong person, and growing stronger every day. "

This is virtually what my sister said to me. He has made it clear, let go, be yourself, be free in your mind and in your heart. It doesn't change that I still love him, it doesn't change that maybe one day we could have a future. But it does change that I don't want to keep sitting her dwelling on what I did wrong, and how I could have tried harder to put it right. Thank you, you made some good points.

Bowd, trying to smile, but looks more like some maniacally, fanatic grin - not coming too easy today, but feeling calmer, strong...

I have decided that a true Plan B letter is not really appropriate in my situation. I have the ongoing thing of his ambivalence towards us prior to OW, and his complete refusal to acknowledge his A. I think I will use his post as a reason to drop a "note" to him, just confirming our conversation and a few other things. Might post it later.

I had YSD over last night - we had a really nice time. I had a chat with her (wasn't sure if her dad had spoken to her too as well as ESD). He hadn't. I told her it was not about taking sides, but I wanted her to know that Dad was "too hurt" to want to work on things, even though I did and also he was having an R with someone else. Both things meant it was too difficult and hurtful for me to see or speak to him at the mo. She said "But you're married". Well, thanks to you!!!! I also said it was important to me to still keep in touch with her and she said "You're my other parent". I told her how happy and proud that made me and that she wasn't going to get rid of me easily. She said "I don't want to". <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Thanks all.

Lisa

P.S. Litchfield, our posts must have crossed. What do you mean snow?!?! Thank you, I do forget the changes that I have made to myself and how important that is. Yeah, one day he may come to regret it, and it may be too late. For now, onwards and upwards for Lisa.

<small>[ January 23, 2003, 05:43 AM: Message edited by: Lisa in London ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Lisa in London:
<strong>You are right too about not being able to change him or what he thinks. I tell people this often enough, but seem to somehow forget it when it comes to me. If I do X, he'll be pleased, if I do Y, he'll be angry, he'll like A, but won't like B. I also think that my actions aren't even so much about whether or not he is "foggy". I think he cut off from me months ago.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You know what? After reading through this thread again and the anger, and the history and so on may be he wasn't there much at all L. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

You are getting there, hell we are all getting there. Lisa now needs to do the Moving On dance!

Hi Lisa,
That sounds more like the strong Lisa we know!
you need to take control!

And its my personal belief that,when the going gets tough , the tough go shopping! So go get that facial/manicure!

I do believe that MB principles are a good strong way to try your best but I would add that you need to listen and consider your instincts too. You know yourself and your H better than anyone.

Small steps Lisa!

Thinking of you
Deluded
PS love the get-out-of-England-free line! Can I use it?

Lisa -

It sounds like you and I ARE reaching the same place. It is necessary for a healthy "R" with anyone to get here. I admire you for what you are doing.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">He has made it clear, let go, be yourself, be free in your mind and in your heart. It doesn't change that I still love him, it doesn't change that maybe one day we could have a future. But it does change that I don't want to keep sitting her dwelling on what I did wrong, and how I could have tried harder to put it right. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This puts into words exactly WHAT I am feeling. You are ready to go to the next level. You DESERVE it and have earned it...... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Good afternoon all.

Deluded, I am more than happy for you to use any of my bad lines, glad you liked it. Someone said, and I'm not sure who, that MB principles would only work if there is no third party involved - and I think I would add if there is an understanding on both sides of what they are about. Not happening here.

Neil - I'm only getting on that dance floor if you do too!!! Yup, I wonder too at times what it was all about.

Well, I've had another go at a sort of Plan B letter. It is perhaps not done in the truest sense, but it feels more honest to me, more what I would say, more what I think and feel. Any comments of course appreciated, but I feel more comfortable with this.

Dear H

I thought I’d drop your post off for you for when you came back from Germany. I hope you had a safe trip.

I’ve been doing a lot of thinking over the last few weeks – it all makes me so immensely sad, the whole situation. I am sad that I had an affair in the first place and didn’t talk to you, I am sad that I hurt you so badly. I am sad that I have tried really hard to right the wrongs, and work on what happened trying to repair our marriage, but that you don’t want to try with me, and I am really sad about your relationship with OW.

All this sadness isn’t right, neither is the hurt and pain. It goes without saying that I’m sorry for the pain I caused. It also goes without saying that after 12 years (some great times, some not so great) that I still love you – you can’t just flick a switch and turn it off. But part of my sadness is that I know I can’t have any contact with you because of OW and because you have been hurt too much to want to try again. I do not want to upset you by this, and again, please remember it is not about anger – quite the reverse actually, it is about love.

Divorce is really not something I want, but if you feel that this is the only course of action for you, I would prefer to talk about this directly rather than involve Solicitors. Also, if you feel that you could see a future together, then of course this is something we could talk about too. Other than those things, for now, for me, it is better not to be in touch.

Thank you for all the fab times we have had, thank you for all the support and care you have given me, thank you for being you. Whatever you do, from the bottom of my heart, I wish you peace, I wish you well, I wish you happiness.

Take care of yourself,

Changed somewhat, but I actually feel much more comfortable with this. Any comments? It is also very true about the Solicitor thing. We would have no reason at all to line their pockets.

Lisa

Kily

Our posts must have crossed. I just want to say thanks!!!! I always think I am not very good at articulating how I feel or where I need to be, but it's brill that you understand me. You and me both friend, you and me both are ready for that next big step.

Take care.

Lisa

Lisa-

I think it's a great letter! You come across as very sincere and also point out your sadness and disappointment with the OW in a discreet sort of way. Well done...

I like this one better.

I know there were things you wanted to say, but I believe this one will do more for him, and still say what you want.

Lisa, I meant what I said, In time, you will be happy. Have some faith in yourself, that you can do it, and that things will get better for you.

SS

Yes I like this one MUCH BETTER!

Lisa,
Your letter was well stated with what you felt but not in an accusatory fashion. You have said all you wanted, to convey to him that you want to build with him but if that is not possible to end as amicably as possible. We both know Lisa when it is all said and done he will have regrets that you won't! Because no matter what he thinks he feels now, he will know the depths of true loss when you do move on, he is not thinking that will happen right now, but like the saying goes, "You do not know what you really have til it's gone". What he needed was under his nose all along and he is letting ego override what truth of heart and soul. Ego is such a lonely place to conduct your life's paths from. I wish you well my friend and you I will always admire all the efforts you have made to correct any wrongs from the past. It's time for you to be proud of yourself and really start knowing in your heart you have DONE everything possible. Warm thoughts.

((((( Lisa )))))

I've finally been allowing myself to get updated on some stories on here.... and yours was tonights' read. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

I can't think to add anymore than what's already been suggested to you in this thread, except that I'd like to re-emphasize how you're being your own worst enemy by snooping. I'm one who knows... I was ADDICTED to it! And it really set me back many months. Try not to let the curiosity get to you... come here to post about it first, before you take actions. You'll be the better person for it.

Oh, and as far as your H and OW "not talking about the weather". You really don't know what was said in that conversation. I too, am terrible with the "what ifs", and I drive myself crazy much of the time with them. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> Even my counsellors at the womens' shelters would remind me of how I was wasting that energy. They were always really good at reminding me to stop making excuses for H... the "but I", "but he", "but if", etc. It was good to get those butt kicks to remind me to focus on me... the only one I could change anyways. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Karen

Morning All,

Well, I finally feel this funny sense of calm, acceptance almost. I realised last night that this is what I wanted to do, I didn't want to be hanging around, worrying obsessing etc. I have written the letter out and am going to put it in with his mail and drop it off before I go to the gym. He will be back from Germany this afternoon.

Karen - yup I know to snoop or not to snoop, that is the question?!!?! I guess he was still denying anything to it, and I wanted to check for myself. I got my answers. You are also right that I don't know what they talked about that night. My friend said to me "Do you think she would really want to listen to all his issues with you". But then, I guess when you're having an A, you do don't you. But speculation and "ifs" are a thing of the past for Lisa. Now, all I want to see from H (and let's face it, I don't think it's going to happen) is concrete actions if he does want to work on us. Nothing else is worth worrying about. Well, DV will be, but again, can't do anything about that if that is what he wants.

Espoir, SS, Litchfield - I agree. It was a much more Lisa letter than trying to say things in a way I thought best. It was more honest and heartfelt. Whatever happens, I do hope he sees it like that.

Neesha, thanks again for your warm thoughts and kind words. I agree, he will one day realise what a mistake he has made, and whether I am still here or not who knows. For now, I'm going to go out and have some fun!!!! I want to get back to living, not worrying, analysing, pondering, waiting. This girl is looking dangerous!!!! Don't worry, won't do anything foolish!

Thanks all for your support and advice.

Lisa

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Lisa in London:
<strong>This girl is looking dangerous!!!!</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">London is being evacuated as we speak <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Well, it's done, sent. I feel rather odd, still calm, a bit sad, but resigned. One day, I'll be able to look back on this and know I really did try and couldn't have done much more. I wonder if H will be able to do the same?

Neil, people are fleeing in the streets as I type this now <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> Be prepared North London, I'm out on the town tonight!

Lisa

Well done Lisa, I liked the letter and it did bring tears to my eyes because your true depth of feeling came through-no cliches, just how you feel. I envy you your hard -won feeling of calm.

Now go out and have some fun-life IS still precious and it still goes on,no matter what!

Deluded

Lisa,
The letter is outstanding. Thanks for sharing it here.

Please don't get mad at me for saying this~~ You mentioned that you did all you could do. Perhaps you should give this at least a few months, before feeling you did do all you could do? I'm sorry for saying it, and I don't intend to hurt you by saying it. Perhaps I misread what you meant.

I'm still recovering from a cold virus, so forgive any confusion on my part, Lisa.

I don't know too much about all of the MB 'stuff', but don't you feel your husband's liason is a revenge affair? It will go away, I'm sure--in a short while. He is punishing you, for what you did--in his way.

Just my little opinion, and perhaps I haven't kept up well enough this week--and I missed some important facts.

Thanks for helping me so much , Lisa. You're wonderful.

Take care,
H_P

Oh H_P of course I wouldn't be cross with you, but yes I have done all I can.

H_P, no in his mind it is not a revenge affair. As I have said before, he cut off from me several months back, and thinks that it is fine to do as he is. He does not even see it as an A, because we are separated. And of course it will end in due course.

Yes, if it ends and he comes back, well then I would reassess the situation, but it is absolutely fundamentally wrong of me to hang on to that sort of hope at the moment. Time and again he has made it clear that he does not want a future with me and sees no issues/problems in our M other than my A. H_P I can not change that.

I did the best job I could at showing him my remorse, showing my willingness to work on things, and showing him that I still love and care. But it has had NO EFFECT - he is not interested. If and when he is interested, then that is when it is time to reasses, but do I think it will happen - frankly no. H_P, you forget the constant verbal abuse I suffered when H was still living here, the indifference, the rudeness and irritation when I did things to help him and show him love (the Plan A things), the anger, the depression etc. etc. The list is long, and the reason I don't think H will come back is that he is weak and unwilling to face up to some unpleasant issues. It is easier to blame me solely for the breakdown of our M than face his responsibilities to our M and to me.

That has been shown in his last M too, and I am actually at a place where I'm not so sure that I even want this. This is not a life I would want, or choose. Would I want my old M? No. Is H prepared to work on a new M? No. So that leaves me in the position I am. Knowing that I did everything possible after making the mother of all mistakes. Should I live with that burden for the rest of my life? I don't think so.

So many BSs have said to me, "If my WS had tried a fraction as hard as you had, it would have been OK".

H_P, for the first time in nearly 8 months, I feel at peace with myself, because I know the truth. H's R with Shiney Head is not the sole or predominant reason for him not wanting our M - if it were, it may be different for me.

So, a rather long answer to your question, but yes, absolutely, definitely, I have done all, and there is nothing left in the tank for him now.

Take care of yourself, and hope you feel better soon.

Lisa