espoir:

"But Mimi, I don't think you have to think in terms of "I have to divorce so I can work on living alone". There's ground in between."

This is so true! Mimi, this may not sound encouraging, but it's meant to be. It has taken me so long (some may say 2 long!) to get my mindset to a place where I can be at ease about what's going on, even the stuff I don't know about, but I think I'm getting there. Over the past year, I went back and forth between doing a good, then a lousy plan A, then trying plan B (2 soon!), then going back to plan A, which is getting better and better for me all the time.

One of the things I've noticed in the past few months about plan A, when I really started feeling like I was doing it "right", is that I can see or sense the struggle going on in my W. And as time goes on, I take it less and less personally, even when some of the remarks are very personal and hurtful. Most of the time she's not even aware that they're hurtful. I'm understanding her more, and at the same time, while I'm working on myself, I'm understanding ME and my role in all this much better.

You will too. I believe in you.
-Qfwfq

Boy, it took a considerable amount of time to edit the multiple posts here!

Sorry, mimi!

-Qfwfq

<small>[ January 31, 2003, 10:41 AM: Message edited by: Qfwfq ]</small>

<small>[ January 31, 2003, 10:34 AM: Message edited by: Qfwfq ]</small>

Man, that's the most multiples I think I've ever seen!

<small>[ January 31, 2003, 10:33 AM: Message edited by: Qfwfq ]</small>

Dear MB Friends:

I want to let you all know that I really have appreciated the wisdom and feedback that I have received here. It has been worth more than years of psychotherapy would have benefitted me. I really have been absorbing and processing what you are saying.

I feel that I am getting stronger, increasing in self-confidence. However, at the same time, I remain anxious and scared. I guess that's to be expected. This is all so devastating and life-changing. My whole world has been turned upside down.

I think what happens this weekend will be crucial. My WS has no excuse,such as a conference, like he did last weekend. He has not spent but one weekend at home since D-Day. He also has not spent an ENTIRE weekend with her since D-Day although I know he has seen her on the weekends. They have stayed apart during the week. I don't understand this scenario, that is, the importance of the weekends. I don't really need to understand. All I know is, I have an expectation for him to be home this weekend.

I asked him this morning if he was planning to be home this weekend. He said YES. I also invited him to go on the hike with me on Saturday. He asked me to leave the info. about the hiking trails. I was able to catch him for a change on his cell phone. He sounds like he is STRUGGLING! You see, there does seem to be a weekend expectation from her. I asked him about the hike. He stated that it sounds like a great thing to do, not outright rejecting the idea of going with me. That's a change. Of course, I've been told and believe that it's important not to hang on to everything that he says. He then went on to say with emotion and not the usual guardedness: "(My name), I really want you to know that I am trying to do the RIGHT thing but it is so hard and it will take time." Then went on to point out some of the problems that led him into the A, stating that he had tried to tell me about the importance of these things to him but I wasn't listening. To me, he was acknowledging for the first time since D-Day that what he is doing is WRONG; however, he still is struggling with this idea of taking responsibility for his actions. I went on to say that I appreciated him sharing for the first time what he is doing about the A. I was subtly passing the responsibility back to him. I stressed how I was doing my part in changing myself and reminded him that when I make my mind up to make a change I always do. Steve said that its important that he believes that my changes will be lasting and that he can have a future with me. I also used Espoir's word. I said we really need to RECONNECT with each other and that it's worth it to try given our long history with each other. The conversation ended positively with no anger expressed from him as usual.

The key is : Does he think saying that he is TRYING and being nice will make it OK for him to go away this weekend. From my standpoint, no it will not.

I'm thinking he does not know how to handle girlfriend but is leaning towards TRYING with me.

I'm thinking seriously about going to the park by myself if need be as you have suggested. It will be a valuable learning experience for me.

We'll see what happens. I'll be sure to let you guys know.

Sure wish I could give you some imput Mimi, but I'm so new at this that half the time I don't know what I'm doing. I hope everything works out to your liking this week end. I just wish my wife would open up.
If everybody would just learn to talk WITH one another, I don't think there would be 80% of these A's going on.
You will be in my prayers.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by mimi1254:
<strong>"(My name), I really want you to know that I am trying to do the RIGHT thing but it is so hard and it will take time." Then went on to point out some of the problems that led him into the A, stating that he had tried to tell me about the importance of these things to him but I wasn't listening. To me, he was acknowledging for the first time since D-Day that what he is doing is WRONG; however, he still is struggling with this idea of taking responsibility for his actions. I went on to say that I appreciated him sharing for the first time what he is doing about the A. I was subtly passing the responsibility back to him. I stressed how I was doing my part in changing myself and reminded him that when I make my mind up to make a change I always do. Steve said that its important that he believes that my changes will be lasting and that he can have a future with me. I also used Espoir's word. I said we really need to RECONNECT with each other and that it's worth it to try given our long history with each other. The conversation ended positively with no anger expressed from him as usual.

The key is : Does he think saying that he is TRYING and being nice will make it OK for him to go away this weekend. From my standpoint, no it will not.

I'm thinking he does not know how to handle girlfriend but is leaning towards TRYING with me.
.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Mimi,
He is in the throes of an addiction that he is fighting to break, it seems. THAT is what he is trying to say here. Can you go rent the movie "UNfaithful" this weekend? Just HEARING about this movie and the nature of the addiction in an affair really opened my eyes. And I think that is exactly where your H is right now. He is fighting this daily and trying to overcome it. His addiction is fraught with fantasy and fleeting pleasure and it will blow over, but for now, I think he is in withdrawal.

By the way, I think you are doing great job and I REALLY commend you for doing such a good job of using your head and controlling your emotions. That is NO EASY FEAT in such an emotionally charged situation.

Good news so far... WS is home on a Friday night for the first time since D-Day. He's in a good mood. No R talk. We'll see what happens tomorrow, though. Hoping to go on the hike.

I'm not exactly sure what's going on. There seems to be more good than bad. Of course, dealing with an alien, addicted WS, I have come to realize that you can't be too sure about anything.

Good: The paycheck was deposited. Explained that he stopped the deposit right after D-Day because of his fear of me seeking revenge on him during that time. He makes a big distinction between "THEN AND NOW".

Good: He has been able to tolerate another conversation about his need to take responsibility for his actions. When he started the typical blaming me I said: "That was then, this is now"; Today you have no reason to get back at me for anything. What you do today is your choice and what I do today is my choice. He said something STUPID like " even if a person should take responsibility for their actions, it doesn't mean they have to. It might make them feel better to go ahead and blame it on another person". Openly acknowledging his putting the blame on me for his actions?? What a rationalization!!

Bad: Won't give me an answer about doing something FUN with me today such as hiking or movie. Left home for a meeting, saying "I'll call you and let you know".

However, he insists that he will be coming home tonignt. We'll see.

I'm planning to do whatever I can to enjoy myself today and whatever I can do to continue to build my self-confidence.

What do you guys think??

I can not stress to you enough Mimi, that you should go on the hike even alone if need be.

It's still early in the game.

Let H wonder what you are up to in the woods.

If you go, you are breaking a pattern. When he is off with OW aren't you usually waiting at home? Where he knows where you are?

If you go on the hike alone you will also feel more confident about yourself. YOu will have tackled something difficult that is hard for you.

YOU CAN DO IT.

Even if your H doesn't go, he will feel discomfort that he's not going. And he may change his mind last minute when he sees you are determined to go.

Don't despair if your H doesn't go. You still have time. This is not the make or break weekend.

So in the past, before Dday, are you saying that your H conducted the A on weekends without your knowledge? How did he explain his absence from the house? Was he gone all weekend?

Mimi, he's watching to see what you do. He's figuring you'll back down on the hike if he doesn't do it with you.

He's still in the fog but his comments indicate some progress.

http://www.sierraclub.org/outings/chapter/

If you go to this, you can look up your Sierra Club chapter for your area. The local chapters have websites and they offer outings/hikes and nonmembers can go.

Espoir:

Tell me more about watching to see what I will do. Should I just plan my time of departure and go? He has not asked me if I'm going anyway or what I am doing today.

I'm realizing about the pattern of his A in retrospect. I've started to think back on how he always was out of place on Fridays. He would give excuses about why he could not go to my son's football games...like he wasn't respectful enough to me this morning. That same scenario of justifying his A by my son's misbehavior. That's why it was so surprising that he was not with her last night. So it is my expectation that he will feel compelled to be with her today.

He did not start leaving for the entire weekend until October/November, just prior to D-Day, when he was beginning to be outlandish. I just had to do something, leading to me get a PI, leading to him being caught. He would call me though and say I went to such and such a town to get away. Now that I look back on it he was probably right here in town.

I figured out just this week that what happened was he stopped being able to go over to her house. She used to live in an apartment complex until that time so he could easily visit her there during the week, coming home late after work. He could park his car without notice. Now she has moved into a house that has no garage, on a street on which people we know live. My WS has a white, shiny car and is well-known in our community. They have to get together in motels, which is costly and probably does not offer him the domestic bliss that it once offered, them playing house, her cooking for him, etc.

By the way, my WS has been making a lot of derogatory comments about the immaturity of young women-how they do not know important things about life. I've been listening but have not commented or made a direct reference although I want to. I want to ask him if he thinks his OW is mature for her age is he denying that she is really young, or does he like the idea of teaching her things?

A wise person once said to me "What's good for the goose is good for the gander" and vice versa. Which means that you must treat your WS as you would want to be treated even if he is breaking every rule.

So in the morning, you say (once again) "So I'm going hiking around noon. I'll be back by X o'clock- I figure I should be able to hike the five miles by then" (You would want Wh to tell you where he is going and when he'll be back). If you want you can reiterate your invitation to him "I'd love it if you could come" by if he declines you simply say- well, maybe next time. You can say, should I expect you for dinner? or whatever. He may question what you're doing or act surprised. Just repeat that you are going and he's welcome to join you.

When you get back you just greet him happily and act as though you had a great time even if you didn't. Talk very positively. While you're hiking take note of things to talk about to WH- frozen ice on a river, birds, feeling peace in nature, perhaps people you meet. Get poetic about your experience!

I know you are a bit uneasy doing it on your own and that's why I do recommend doing it with a hiking group if possible which will unsettle WH even more. SO please look into that.

His comments about young people do indicate he is probably having some second thoughts. You could say offhandedly, Hmmm is that ever an issue for you with OW? She's pretty young, isn't she? If he defends her ignore it and don't get drawn in. If he complains about her GOOD listen sympathetically.

my advice for the moment

and it is important how you bring that up I think. Don't ask him if she's mature or if he enjoys teaching her stuff (focuses on the positive). Say it the other way- does she fit into his description? In other words it links HER with his negative words- the stuff he is saying.

Espoir,
Are you there?

I'm thinking about giving up-even on MB principles.

My WS has been gone since 10 AM. He told me he would call. He has not. He probably will stay out all night again which has been his weekend pattern. I must have really been fooling myself yesterday.

Also I discovered that many of his clothes are gone. Its like he may be slowly moving out. He definitely has not unpacked his bag since last weekend. He's carrying it around in his car with him. I feel like throwing the rest of his clothes out in the driveway.

This is mental cruelty. He is just staying here during the week!! I'm wondering if his reason for not leaving is financial. He cannot be trusted! He does not have to be such a liar. He does not have to pretend to me like yesterday that he is really trying.

So when I see him I want to say. OK , you win. I will go see the lawyer. I feel so disrespected and angry at him.

He's out there somewhere with that young girl. It makes me want to throw up. I can't eat. I keep losing weight. Size 8 pants are loose. This is probably not good at all for my health and I have to accept it and realize it.

You see I am having lots of trouble tonight. I'm more angry than hurt which is a change for me.

What do I do?

<small>[ February 01, 2003, 07:47 PM: Message edited by: mimi1254 ]</small>

Mimi,

Breathe...... this is not an all positive recovery. It very very seldom is. He is confused and will back pedal. He may even be trying to go to the OW yet be fighting it in his own mind.

What do you do? Go keep busy. Real busy. You want to put his stuff in the garage because it makes you angry? Go ahead. It could make him sad or angry. Are you ready for either? I know I was but that was after several false recoveries.

I learned to throw his stuff out of our home in less than 2 hours. Things he said would take weeks to move, I did in 2 hours. Wow. The amazing strength of an angry BS. Your andrenaline is flowing and you may want to punch the wall. Punch the couch or the bed but don't hurt yourself.

Where is your journal? Post your heart out and write how you feel. Get on the phone with someone you can vent with.

On the other hand make sure your anger is warranted otherwise you will look no better than those WS or OPs (at least in their eyes).

This will be a hard time. I am sorry for your pain. If he asks why did you move his stuff? Tell him you were practicing and timing youself in case you had to move him out in a rush. LOL!!

L.

I'm just so p--- off I don't even know where to start with a post. So am I still in Plan A when I throw his clothes in the driveway????

What about calling her answering service and telling her how we had SF last week?? That wouldn't be harassment would it???

mimi:
I realize how tempting it is to contact the OW. I still have desires to contact RM from time to time, but I get talked out of it by cooler heads than mine every time.

What you want is NC. you want this broad out of your life for the rest of your life. Try thinking of calling her as "inviting" her to be in YOUR life, as well as your H's. Kinda icky thought, huh?

Others may say different, and Orchid is the master of reverse babble, so she can give you pointers if this is called for. WAT might also advise different, but usually he advises contacting the OP ONLY if that person is being told by the WS that the BS doesn't want the M or something along those lines. It shows the OP that there's a real person on the receiving end of the betrayal, which they might not want to face. It probably works better if the OP is M'd, which I think you said your H's is not.

-Qfwfq