Thanks for being there Espoir.

I'm still processing everything, deciding what to do and say.

I called a close friend this morning that I had not talked to because her daughter died of breast cancer near Xmas time. You see we both are struggling. The conversation was healing. She was another person that validated: "you are are strong, there's more to life than this for you, you deserve better, etc." I'm going to start calling in my support troops that I have been isolating myself from out of embarassment, I guess. Why should I be embarassed? He's the one that is doing WRONG.

Do you think that he should leave as soon as he shows back up and not spend another night here? I don't want him too.

Should I give my "eternity ring" and wedding band to him? I took them off. They seem meaningless right now. Wow does my hand seem empty after all these years. I usually never take my rings off.

Mimi, keep the rings, put them away for now.
I agree with everyone here. Time for some tough love.
The comment about not helping raise son really irks me. But it's his loss if he chooses not to have a relationship with son.
BTW, with visitations, make sure it's weekends. LOL Put a crimp in his style for being with OW. And don't let it be where he comes over, stays at home and has you waiting on him, doing things for him.
He must take son with him and provide the weekend free for you to do things!
I agree you cannot continue this way. It's not healthy for you or your son. and it's stealing precious time from your life!
God bless, LouLou

exactly right LouLou.

WS gets son every other weekend at his place. Mimi, you have plans- you won't be around. WS can explain it to son and arrange childcare for son if he has plans- don't get involved in that. After all, you won't expect WS to help you care for son on the days you have responsibility for son.

I know it's hard on son- but this kind of tough love FORCES WS to take responsibility for his OWN relationship with his child which he has been avoiding. He has set up a blame game where he distances, is not involved- doesn't go to son's games etc. and then blames you for how you handle things. Yes you did undermine him and you have taken responsibility for that- but he was a player too. He helped create the conditions by withdrawing and not working at coparenting with you.

As for how to proceed. Tell him you don't see the purpose of him sneaking around, he obviously wants to be free to be with OW so he should just go. Nothing is stopping him. Tell him it's not making it easier on you that he's sneaking his clothes out of the house- you know what's going on. Tell him you're seeing lawyer on Monday to get separation papers. That it's best that he stay in a motel until he decides what to do because seeing him is causing you a tremendous amount of pain.

Mimi,

Hi football widow here. I read your post to me and have been looking through your story briefly. There are some similarities to my sit. as far as younger OW, etc. But my H moved out of state and I have only done plan A from as distance. So as far as advice, sounds like you are getting good and plenty here. You are also counseling with Steve H. Great. I never did. Couldn't afford it just came here. I would love to answer any ?'s you have for me. I don't know that I can be much help but I can feel for your pain, shock and humiliation. Let me know.

Sharon

I know I'm asking you guys for a lot of direction but I guess I feel I may not be thinking straight today. I'm going to the library to get LOVE MUST BE TOUGH.

I'm going to follow your suggestions on how to proceed with him. I am definitely going to see a lawyer tomorrow. One question: Do I state that I do not want to have contact with him as in Plan B???

Thank you guys for being here for me today. I really appreciate it.

<small>[ February 02, 2003, 12:30 PM: Message edited by: mimi1254 ]</small>

Mimi,

You have received some good support here but I am sure with your current emotional state, it is hard to digest it all. Mtthbrd (sp?) and esp (sp?) both have been good in giving you step by step advice/support. Others have also but pay attention to those 2.

Right now is NOT the right time to plan B. You are currently too anxious and emotional. You want to plan B with a clear head and a calm heart..

So what do you do? If you want, put his things where it doesn't pain you (out of sight but not in the garbage). Keep busy with your son(s), friends and/or household project. Go to the spa. Ask your children to help mom through the day. You will find that the more you do the sooner you will feel strong enough to plan B.

Read the book ,love must be tough.....good one.

You will still think about him while you are doing these things. That's ok. Keeping busy will not keep you from thinking but it will help put it in perspective. While you are doing things, think of how you will react to what he may say or do when he returns.

I did that and practice does make perfect. My comeback lines to his WS babble were great. I did practice in front of the mirror, talk to the wall, keep a journal, e-mail myself when I wanted to vent and no one was around, even left myself a VM to remind myself I was in plan B!!! Sounds silly? Yes it is but it helped my santity because the A is not silly, it is STUPID!

Mimi, this temporary time away from you is probably what his wobbly A mind needs. Your plan A did work, just not to the point of recovery. You have put a damper and dent in the A and it is confusing the enemy (WS in the alien state). Maybe even causing a bit of LBing between OW and WS.

So for now when he comes home, do not hit him over the head. Practice being calm and give him his space and time to EXPLAIN himself. Then...... if you don't like his reasoning and you feel the need to throw him out you can.

He may want to use it against you but at that point you will have practiced enough to get some good comeback lines that it will stifle his babble.

Remember, give him his chance to explain, this is important. Then give him a look that you are 'thinking' about what he said. Don't give away your feelings up front, make him wonder and wonder......... remember.....WS' don't like to use their brain much......

take care,
L.

Orchid:
Thanks for your post.

I am looking forward to hearing what he has to say. He probably does not have the balls to come home today though. He will probably show up tomorrow morning at work so that he does not have to talk to me before I go to work.

I will not be at all surprised if he claims that he was not with her. This is a man who met me at the door of the motel room in his boxers and told me to go home, he would be home in a few hours after he "ended things with her". I almost left and I almost believed him. Then not long afterwards he called me on my cell phone and told me that he was by himself. I said mighty funny your car and her car were the only cars in the parking lot. She just happened to be staying at the same motel?

I will keep you guys posted.

Mimi, in regards to having contact with H after he moves or if he moves, it should be pertaining to the children. joint decisions on their well being.
But I wouldn't give an inch on keeping it at that. He may want to call up, come over anytime, have you cook, wash his clothes, etc. jusing seeing the son as an excuse. NO WAY!
Once he's out, you must let him stew in his own juices to see what it's like to lose your doing for him, being there to pamper his needs.
After all, he's either in or out of the marriage. And so far, he's out of it, just still using you. A separation should not allow him the privileges of being in a commited marriage one sided.
The son is the only reason for contact or financial decisions such as payments, support, bills etc that he must be responsible for.
No having his cake and eating it anymore.One or the other! That way you can feel free to start building your own life sans WH.
LouLou

I just finished reading LOVE MUST BE TOUGH. I like his principals and am planning on applying them.

Question: How do these principles fit with MBs? Is Dobson recommending PLAN B or a more forceful PLAN A. I know Harley does state that first of all that the A should not be tolerated so maybe that's how Dobson fits in and makes sense.

I actually feel better already as I think about being more confident.

Dobson pulls plan A into a tighter mode. Plan A should not be allowed to use the BS as a continued doormat. Plan A for most is to see where things are at and allow time for the WS to see the err of their ways and come home to a loving family.

Dobson's views work well with MB. Look at it from the tough love standpoint. For many of us dealing with a confused and frustrated WS, plan A is not solely practical. If they WS are cake walkers than plan A becomes highly disrespectful and very very painful. Plan B 'seems' scary but really the better road to take for many. It is not always the end of a M with plan B but many fear it to be so.

I used Dobson's techniques and liked their tougher approach. For what I had to deal with, it was better than a long drawn out plan A.

JMHO,
L.

This is my 2¢'s on Tough Love ... IT IS PLAN B WITH FULL CONTACT !!!. There is no question that BS has to plan A !. Work on what BS has missed the issues in the M first !. It would look like a doormat, you have to !, you concentrate on showing to WS what you a are willing and capable. While you are in plan A, it doesn't mean you can't talk fogese back to WH ... it is highly recomended but don't LB'ed. Only after you fixes your issues then you have a choice to use plan B or tough love.

One IC gave me a good illustration about this ... BS/WS are out of sync to a diferent drum beat and OP makes it worst. If you stop trying to hit the same beat and OP is ready to take WS ... Dv is unavoidable.

Sorry Orchid, this is my observation about PBR ... what happen if you are only plan A for a month only and what happen if PBR didn't lie about the financial and be able to come out with $ ?. I do not beleive that Orchid is still M today. xWH was leaving the house many times but PBR wasn't ready and caught on her lies (LB'ed).

I am probably in the minority here but I am trying to tell you to stick with plan A and wait for SH's advice for plan B or otherwise. You are obsessing about this A ... do nothing for now, take mini vacation w/ or w/o your kids if you feel the heat from the kitchen.

If you want to use "tough love" make sure that you know OW is not ready to receive your WH .... i.e financial ?, living arrangement ? etc ...

JMVHO -rh-

BTW: I always like plan A/B since it is the safest approach.

<small>[ February 02, 2003, 06:09 PM: Message edited by: redhat ]</small>

As you can see Mimi, we have different viewpoints and I highly respect RH's.

However, in my case OW had her checkbook in hand and I called her 'bluff'. If H had taken her $$ that would have been a closure point for me. Keeping a WS financially tied to an OP is like the noose around the M neck. RH is right, I would not have been M today if H would have taken her $$. Now OW had $$ but is a very greedy person (my research proved this at least to my satisfaction), I was able to use it to my benefit (calling her bluff). You have to remember that in my past, the OW sent me an e-mail claiming to make the WS rich and she would take better care of him than I ever did. Hmmmph... well I finally got to the point where I said, ok go ahead now that your foot in your mouth, make good on your 'promise' oh and by the way OW that means paying for all his bills even CS.

Now based on the above clarification and while I agree with RH that I would not be M today if the WS did take $$ from the OW, I still advocate plan B. Tough love for me was a requirement. I tried all the nice avenues even the doormat one.

Best advice to you though is to check out your sitch with Steve. See most of us here can give our opinions, your life depends on your decision. Make it with care. Take as much into consideration (counseling/advice, etc.) as reasonably possible.

take care,
L.

I need your opinions!!!

I am pretty sure after all that sweet talk on Friday that he went off and got an apartment and she has been there with him all weekend. Looks like she probably went home to her house and got a change of clothes sometime this evening; now her porch lights are on. It hurts that he was so deceitful, promising me that he would be back on Saturday for maybe a hike or a movie. What was the point of that except meanness?? It's like he enjoyed fooling me. I feel so STUPID!!! I want to kick his butt but I have no idea where he is.

I do not have the opportunity to talk to him before work tomorrow. Do you think it would be a good idea for me to show up at his office? It would really piss him off but I feel that I really need to talk with him tomorrow about how much he has disrespected me this weekend. It is intolerable!!! He has his own company with two employees but he might have clients there. His response at the office would determine whether I need to go see a lawyer that evening.

I probably can catch him by phone but I want to see him face to face. Or I could wait until the end of the day but I think he may come home while I'm at work and get the rest of his stuff. I would be so frustrated for the rest of the evening.

Mimi, I don't think you should necessarily box yourself in with a Plan B letter. It is probably best to speak to Steve before you take drastic action.

I believe that you really have to be READY for Plan B before you start it. Once you start you have to be firm because if you waffle, the WS figures the whole thing is BS.

FIRST When you talk to WS, make the point that his disappearing act is <strong>extremely disrespectful and discourteous.</strong> He would not treat his family or friends in that regard. Or his coworkers. (meaning disappear at a time when he is expected to be reachable- without explanation).
Would he ever- not show up for Xmas at his relatives or friends house when expected, without a call?

not show up for work, without a call?

SECOND make the point that you can not be around someone who treats you like this. Also it is setting a terrible example for your son- you don't want your son to think that it is okay to treat one's spouse in this manner. If he is going to continue this behavior he needs to move out because it is too painful for you to be treated this way by the man you considered your best friend- and you don't want HIS son to witness his father's inconsiderate behavior.
TIP when discussing son, refer to him to WS as "your son" not "my son".

AS in:

"I'm concerned about the lesson YOUR son will receive when he sees his father disappearing from the house without a word and being unreachable for days".

Don't box yourself into a response. Perhaps your WS will break down and beg forgiveness. (doubtful, unfortunately).

THIRD is the point that if he is going to continue to behave in this fashion he needs to move out and do it on his own. That's when you bring up separation agreement.

You must be calm, hurt but not angry. Very determined.

Other people will have other points of view, but I think I and Mother Hubbard are on the same page in believing that a Plan A does not have to be lengthy.

I haven't read Dobson but I believe his principles can mesh with MB.

ok,now i got it.

call him.you need to know!

can we start a new post for you.its getting confusing jumping back and forth.

Don't jump to assumptions that he got an apartment.

Why is he getting an apartment and not moving into OW's house?

WHen is your next appt with Steve?

<small>[ February 02, 2003, 09:21 PM: Message edited by: espoir ]</small>

What I think:

If the BS has had a lengthy, respectable track record of meeting the WS's needs throughout most of the marriage .... and, in fact the BS has been the partner contributing most efforts toward preserving the health of the relationship .... then I vote for tough love.

This is also true if the BS has had a track record for being weak and complacient in their acceptance of pre-affair WS's mis-treatment. (ie; the WS is an alcoholic and the BS has tolerated the alcoholic behavior for many years .... then plan-A is enabling, and certainly not loving)

If the WS has had a lengthy track record of immaturity and/or selfish behavior .... plan A is an invitation to further emotionally abuse the BS.

The Plan A is most effective when there has been longstanding avoidance of meeting the needs of the WS .... and the willingness to meet those needs needs to be demonstrated.

I did tough love .... WS was an active alcoholic .... plan -A was NOT advised by my counselor.

Mimi .... if you cannot tolerate something going on without becoming phyically ill .... then DON'T tolerate it. Boundaries are healthy.

Ask yourself to make healthy and brave choices .... do not ask if the choice is "easy" ... that is not a good guidepost.

Be healthy .... emotionally, physically and spiritually. Make choices consistent with this premise.

<small>[ February 02, 2003, 09:29 PM: Message edited by: Pepperband ]</small>

Mimi, I have no idea how you even function! I couldn't.
I'd go to his office and face off there. Isn't it your business too? I would think joint assets.
Then tell the jerk he has a responsibility to take care of family financial support, bills, etc.
That he could take the rest of his things and get out for good. Just be prepared to not be let off the hook in support, house payments, etc. And perhaps you would seek half the business?
I'd be giving him a notice from an atty fast as I could get there. This is total insanity to put up with this type of selfish, selfcentered behavior.
What about family emergencies? My H was gone one week and didnt' want us to know where he was. Of course, With OW! but I found out anyway by finding secret emails.
To me, this was almost worse than the A! Because we have children and grandchildren, and our son is diabetic type 1. He almost died a few years ago, so H has no idea what may have happened and I couldn't even call to tell him. OW was more important and to me, that is the end of it if he'd not made a 180 immediately!
One false step and he's be singing in the Louisiana bayous now!
I looked at it this way. Yes, I love him, But if he can't love me only and our family, then I don't want him.
So I gave him his options. Give her up and forget her forever or get packed and go now! And be prepared to pay and pay because i'd already found my entitlements out. And I let him know it. I'd seen an Atty fast!
That was a wake up call in itself.
Start kicking A-- girl. quit letting him have his way and come home whenever he chooses.
God bless, LouLou

Why WS turns to NC ? ... b/c plan A is working !. It is painfull unable to justify their behavior. However OW won't let go and probably get to him again. It is classic right out of fogese's script.

Talk to SH before you do anything ... call first thing they open up to see if there is cancellation to squeeze you in.

I am very interested on what SH advice you to do.

-rh-