no argument with your last post pepper, it is my point as well. Belonging can be good or bad, depends on how it is manifested (and you have chosen to describe the good part, I am describing the bad part). And no it is not a matter of symantics, it is plain and simple, if you think you own someone and then call it belonging, you kid no one but yourself (the general you, not pepper per se). The test is equally simple, and I gave it above. I am sure it comes as no surprise to you many people feel (and act accordingly) like their spouse is their emotional property. Likewise the recipient of such unhealthy "love" feels the difference, and knows that this love is really not about them, but about what they do for their spouse. I think this is part of the idea we have in mind when the word addiction is used in relationships (be it dating, marriage, or affairs). IMO if you cannot let someone be free to choose you without some kind of emotional debt than you do not love them, you love what they do for you. That is what I think is meant by setting each other free, it is a vulnerable, risky emotional paradigm, but it is the one which leads to greatest intimacy.

Not sure what you meant about spiritual component, I am (I think, but who knows) well versed, and experienced in the spiritual aspects of human behaviour. If you want, elaborate, but if you are just using religion to rationalize owning someone, be a tough position to support Scripturally. Btw, don't feel enslaved, the use of slavery was simply to make a point about ownership, which you originally suggested in the car theft analogy. You cannot be enslaved in a relationship, people are free to stay or go, albeit the psychological issues get confusing sometimes. The point is how each of us "loves" if we do it by feeling someone owes us, and we try to impose that on them, we are wrong to do so, meaning it will lead to undesireable outcomes. And actually I must disagree, I think most marriages are exactly like mine, or worse, a lot of projection, neediness, manipulation, coercion, control, etc goes on pepper. I think it is not common at all to find marriages where each works for the best of the other, including ending it amicably if necessary. How a marriage ends is directly related to how it is working in the first place, and very revealing of the mindset of the individuals in it.

pepper...In healthy relationships, there is a belonging that is not akin to slavery/ownership. It is a caring, a tender cherishing of your beloved , and, you own that relationship together. Equally and joyfully yoked.

la..Amen btw, you didn't respond to my question about letting someone go. Did you overlook that, or is it something you prefer not to address?

BH, it seems I may have not been clear, based on your response to some of my points, let me clarify later so I don't bopped with a virtual 2 x 4 (unless I still deserve it then). btw, if you feel this digression with pepper is detracting from your post plz say so.

<small>[ February 04, 2003, 11:43 AM: Message edited by: LurkingAbout ]</small>

Lurking~~~

Sometimes I wish you would tell your intellect to "shaddup" .... and speak from the heart.

You have a great vocabulary, and use a multitude of words to express opinions, yet reveal very little of your deeper self in the process.

My opinion ....

hmmm... I do (try) , but am not encouraged to do so (meaning when I do I get a lot of grief for it, or discounted). It is important for me to understand things, maybe more so than the average person (not good or bad thing, just me). That can be a distressing thing to a partner (who has no such need), so do I just change that? Be someone else, follow someone elses agenda for me? I do have feelings, and I know what they are (after a lot of work, and soul searching)...but I also know human behaviour is understandable, and absolutely has a "rational" component as well, and one can make decisions based on reason, as well as emotion. But my experience is people usually want what they want, and are not real keen about making a good case for it, or even worse get highly irritated if one suggests their are negative consequences to their choices whether they like it or not... (and heaven forbid they change their choice by force of argument). In any event I see alot of unhealthy and manipulative behaviour in relationships (whether it be married, affairs, familial, dating, whatever), so I comment on it for whatever it is worth, that's all, and along the way try to figure out my own stuff.

Lurking~~

I am not trying to give you grief. (When I am... I'll let you know <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> ) I am trying to make it safe for you to drop your intellectual shield, and from time to time, relax. I don't feel I can really know you. You are so distant and afraid.

You seem tense nearly all the time. This is, of course my mere peception, and I am prepared to be 100% wrong.

Hi LurkingAbout <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Hi Malc....thanks for your response! It is always nice hearing from you! Well, I called my husband today (I can bear talking to him but I couldn't bear talking to Julie_) I told him I wouldn't be going to any more parties for the time being anyway. I told him it was too uncomfortable for me and I couldn't handle seeing them together and that I didn't appreciate her hugging me. He was understanding and told me he was uncomfortable too and that Julie didn't realize I was in that room and when she went in, she didn't know what to do and just thought she should hug me!?!?!? He called it a knee-jerk reaction (he could the second half right..it was definately a jerk reaction! LOL). I don't believe that scenario for one minute. I saw her come in and there was no look of surprise or shock. She just walked in and right over to me without hesitation. Well, at least I told him how I felt and now I have to call my in-laws and tell them. That will probably be harder than telling my husband because he is probably relieved that I won't be going anymore. I agree with you wholeheartedly with what you wrote to Lurking. I will try to take time tonight to read those versus you mentioned. Take care Malc and thanks for always thinking of me...I always love hearing from you!
BH

Why are posters who have been banned still allowed to post?

When did it dawn on you, Nellie? I just caught on today.

I mentioned in one of my responses to Lurking that his writing style sounded familiar. Am I correct in the assumption that his former name began with an s??? I would say his name but don't know if that is allowed.
BH

BH, I think we have our boy!! heheee <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

Wow...it is him! Been a long time, but his writing style and his belief system are unmistakable! Thanks for confirmation Melody!
BH

MelodyLane,

I became suspicious awhile ago. On December 31st, I posted this:

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=37;t=021807#00 0011

but no one seemed to believe me at the time.

<small>[ February 04, 2003, 06:58 PM: Message edited by: Nellie1 ]</small>

Nellie, you little sleuth, you!! Good catch! hahaaa

Ok. Who is him? And him is who? Must have been before my time here. LOL LouLou

Hi BH
I'm glad you expressed how you truly felt, I can only imagine how you felt afterwards <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />
I know for me when I take a stand for me or others it makes me feel good.

It's always a pleasure to hear from you. I always wonder about you. I say a prayer for us all that are going through, and for those who have recovered. know this to will pass, it's an on going healing process.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I don't want to hijack your thread BH, so won't comment on MALC contention no one is allowed to divorce (too bad for all those in emotionally abusive/neglectful/unhealthy marriages I guess... oh well, just their bad luck I suppose). </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

Please read my post again. I never implied that.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">(however MALC, that is about a specific behaviour, not the whether marriage is a life sentence, no review allowed).</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

Lurk I'm sorry for what you have experience in your marriage. I can tell you are trying to justify for some of the wrong you may have inflicted on your marriage, or angry about what was inflicted on you.This kind of pain whether you are a WS or BS bring you to this conclusion that marriage is a life sentence.

I pray that you find your true devine self, and stop hinding behind your psych-analyze babbling

Honest to goodness Lurking ~~~~

What in the world makes you even imagine you have any insight into what a healthy marriage relationship looks like? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" /> You are deeply involved in one of the most insidiously sick relationships currently known on the MB boards, and you have the outrageous gall to offer relationship advice????

You spout wild and bizarre relationship theories up the wazzoo .... while you've only lived through the most terrible, awful, dysfunctional marriage experience. Where is your humility regarding YOUR failings? I tried to draw it out of you ... and you are not able to drop your intellectual facade long enough to be a real human being. You write robotic diatribes, and do not open yourself up one single inch. You have such concern for your "appearances" as a WS, and apparently NO CONCERN with how you function as a man! It is stunningly annoying.

Give me one good reason you offer anything here but a blazing example of how NOT to behave???? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" />

I told you, when I am pissed off .... you'll know it. I am honestly sick of intellectual diarrhea with absence of soulful reflection!

Yes...... this is me <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" />

<small>[ February 05, 2003, 10:45 AM: Message edited by: Pepperband ]</small>

Pepper, SNL is a slug crawling on the butt of humanity. Sorry Thinker, but I really think its' high time someone passes you the salt. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

Lurking ~~ I think you should report my last post!