Update on this thread, Feb 10th. I've gone through a lot of personal growth spurts in the past week, since I posted this thread under its original title "Need to reluctantly ask for advice I'm reluctant to hear", so I decided a more "benign" subject head would be more appropriate. I'll leave the rest of the thread intact, so I can come back here and re-read what I wrote as my perspective evolves! ;o) -Qfwfq

Well, we had one of those conversations again. A lot more level-headed than previously, at least the last couple of times.

Problem is, my W is still very much interested in staying on the fence, possibly for the rest of her life, and seems to be enjoying her cake, frosting and all (I've tried it, and I think it tastes like $h!+ souffle to me!). Trouble on top of that is that we're getting along okay. And I do mean okay. She's very sweet to me, we are both making an effort to be honest with each other and non judgemental. And we're doing good. So good that she's telling me what she's doing/thinking re RM (not much, but he still consults for her and she is talking to him about work). Anyway, my update below.

The update:

This morning, my W initiated a conversation about our sitch. It was pretty level-headed on both sides, which was good. She said she didn't want to get into an argument like the last couple of times. I didn't either.
We talked about a lot of things, and only got around to talking about the A and what's going on in her mind lately toward the end. Several things to note (because I'm going to try not to make this 2long):

*She still has a hard time trusting me - by this, I think she means primarily that she doesn't believe that I will be there for her if she has "troubles" again, because she believes she told me enough about what was happening that I should have been able to do something about it if I had wanted to when the A started 12 years ago (she did acknowledge, however, that it's hard to remember just what was said and how the other reacted to it that long ago).

*She still says that she figures she'd have to be alone if we can't work this out (by that, I get the distinct impression that I will have to tolerate RM as a permanent fixture in the long haul). She's currently angry with both of us.

*RM doesn't want her to leave her family. I admire this, but I remember her remark about him saying something like "I'm glad you like to live this lifestyle" because I believe he would still like to continue a PA with her, and certainly an EA. And, due to the nature of As, he clearly would have no qualms about her living with her family while having an A with him. Neither one of them has faced the biggest consequence of their A so far: The breakup of his family, and his W having an A of her own.

*My W's "plan for recovery" is to finish this work that he's consulting for her on in October and then quit, after which she will have much less contact with him (but she didn't say zero). I fully expect that there will be delays, like the last time when the work was supposed to be finished in May or June, but took until November or December to finalize. I simply told her that I've surprised myself every time I thought I couldn't hold on, by holding on (but now I'm at work, thinking about this, and groaning audibly at the prospect.)

*My W doesn't agree that "lies of omission" are lies. But she said she was updating me because I believed they are. This is a HUGE problem for me. I didn't make "lies of omission" up. It's a REAL THING. And so this is a crucial area for me to explore. If her lifestyle can include "lies of omission" as harmless, mine can't and we'll be better off apart. She doesn't understand the tremendous HURT that causes me.

*She reiterated that her A "wasn't about sex". I conceded, but reminded her that an EA can be a far more serious threat to the M than a PA in many cases. At least she acknowledges now that there is a such thing as an EA. But I've been thinking since: was it really not about sex? After all, they exchanged explicit sexual email for MONTHS at a time. Never mind that they were physical only a few times. That's still a sex-based A.

*I pointed out to her that I could "tell" when she was "under pressure" from RM to make a decision in the last several months. She didn't seem to understand, so I explained about the timing of the changes in his sitch and how I could sense her withdrawl from ME during those times. She still didn't seem to agree, but said that she's put up more walls during that same time. I said that's exactly what I mean. She hasn't said ILY since once in December. She won't even say "thank you" when I say ILY to her, like she had recently. Even this morning, I got no response.

*She said her IC had said she may be codependent on ME and her family. I agree with Harley on this one. This is IMPOSSIBLE. Tell me I'm wrong if I am. Codependency refers to alchoholic marriages. I'm not an alchoholic. This sounds too much like an excuse for wanting to let her selfish side (taker) have her way by villifying me (or maybe just avoid facing the fact that she's being selfish by focusing the attention elsewhere). ...but it was this same IC that said it wasn't unreasonable for me to expect her to stop talking to RM. As you know, I've reiterated that several times now, including during our last argument. I don't think she will comply anytime soon. Maybe never.

*She doesn't believe that counselors can really "do anything." I agree with this in a way, and we both discussed the fact that they can only make suggestions and help you think about things from a different perspective. But I also felt that she was telling me she's determined to do things "her way" regarding dealing with "the elephant." But, neither of us is in counseling right now, or reading any texts, though I have my ulove group and have read 4 of the available M texts and listened to Greg Baer's CDs.

*I pointed out that the "elephant" isn't the problem with our M (based on a lengthy convo about my coworker's similar M problems sans A), but it is one helluva symptom. She agreed, even with that last part. But I don't think she'd agree with "shooting the elephant" as a necessary step toward solving the problem. Sure, it's a symptom, but symptoms of diseases are treated all the time, so that the desease can be cured (you don't ignore the fact that someone has a fever when trying to cure a flu, right? You treat it, bring their temperature down so they don't overheat and die!).

Okay, that's what I can think of right now. There's more, and I'll post it when I think of it. The conversation ended okay, I think. No anger, but there may be some unvoiced frustrations on her part. There certainly are on mine.

She's called me about a couple of things this morning while I'm at work, and she's in a good mood.

Incidentally, yesterday morning we had SF, because she was interested. (It's been a while since the last time, because I wanted to show her that I can refrain, so that she doesn't feel that I want her for SF alone). It was good. Not great, not something I couldn't have lived without, but good. She enjoyed herself a great deal, though. This am, I was interested after our convo, but she wasn't, so I found myself racked with self-doubt again about whether I should even mention it when I'm interested, because I now know I can "hold back" when I need to...

Now, I'm feeling impatient again, mainly because it doesn't seem that her "plan" for the future has changed since she decided to "end her A" back in November 2001, 2 months before D-day. All that's different is that we get along well and we're STARTING to talk about the A and our M problems without LBing. I did get her attention when I said that, rather than "take our M a day at a time" we take a proactive approach, because "taking it a day at a time" sounds like conflict avoidance.
But today I find myself wanting to find a way to make it clear to her (yet again) that I can't and won't live like this anymore. It's been over a year since D-day folks. I want a 100% mutually-committed M, not one where she installs walls to protect herself from ME making some kind of "unreasonable demand" or disrespectful judgement as to who she can have as a friend...

I need to end this crap somehow. All withoug LBing. And if we split up NOW, either via a plan B or DV, I'll still have to deal with her daily for the next several months at least while we put our house back together and decide what to do with it. I'd prefer to do this within plan A if at all possible. I don't believe I've been a doormat. I've been learning, and observing, which is why I can sense what's going on in her mind based on our interactions, far better than I ever could before. It's just that it's been an awfully long time since D-day, and I KNOW now that M can be much more rewarding than ours is at this time (but it's far more rewarding than most you'll read about on this forum - part of the problem). I want the more rewarding relationship.

What to do?

*Call or email RM and tell him I'm going to fight for my M?

*Demand NC? I don't want to make demands, because I want her to have chosen our M of her own free will. Trouble is, she hasn't progressed in that direction in over a year. And if we follow her "plan", I'm afraid she'll never get there.

*Move out? Move HER out? Difficult. We have TOO much to do on the house together daily.

-Qfwfq

<small>[ February 10, 2003, 12:27 PM: Message edited by: Qfwfq ]</small>

Q - please remind me (us) of how much her family knows and how much her/OM's employer knows. What is your take on what OM knows of the state of your relationship? i.e., is your W lying to him about her intentions?

What a mess. I validate your desire to end the status quo and admire your courage to consider the ugly options.

WAT

<small>[ February 03, 2003, 01:26 PM: Message edited by: worthatry ]</small>

WAT:

Good questions:

Our D and my MIL were informed by me last March, when I almost threw my W out after I found a very personal email she'd sent to RM on MY birthday. My son still doesn't know, though he knows we're having problems. I think he'd be devastated, as he's a very sensitive, caring young man that loves his parents (very much like me when I was his age). In around July, my SIL guessed that my W was having an A, based on a sense she got from her during a conversation, and based on her experience with a former friend she knew was having an A. My MIL told my BIL and his W about it, also in around July, probably the week I spent in our guest house with my MIL. I told my older sister at the end of that week (Bigsis on this forum), and she asked me if she could talk to my next youngest sister about it a few weeks ago. I left that up to her, and she took a while to decide to tell her. Both sisters are very supportive of our M, and love my W very much. My other two sisters don't know, and my W's other brother doesn't know. My FIL passed away around 7 years ago, about a month after my mom passed away. My dad is 85 and not in the best of health. He doesn't know.

Mrs Rat Meat found out in May, and threw RM out around then. She had found out about their first A, but didn't tell me then, she just made them move to NM. I don't know how much RM's family knows, but Mrs Meat is having an A of her own, and RM is in his own apartment. They have two sons, living with her, I think. I doubt very much that RM's employer knows. They have a website, so I have the phone numbers and email addresses of all his coworkers and his employer.

As to what RM knows about our M... Hard to tell, except that the emails I saw to him before and after D-day don't mention me very often at all. And in talking to her, she's told me that her "plan" to end the A was to simply stop responding to his sexual emails and only talk business. I only have what she tells me and what I saw to go on, but she told me that she sent him a happy birthday email in early december, and said "I miss you" in that email. At best, I don't believe he knows much about me or our kids and how this has affected our lives. Kind of like my W's apparent callousness toward his W, and disregard for how this must have affected their sons (the oldest must be about 12 or 13 by now). My W has dehumanized Mrs Meat since I met her once 12 years ago, and was only given more fodder when she started an A of her own in November or December.

So, it sounds like my W is making an effort to be honest with me, at least, not because she thinks she's not honest, but because she recognizes that I believe omission is lying. It's weird the way it comes out. Like last April or May, before OMW's D-day, just after she told RM that I knew about the A, she told me he said "we should probably never see each other again" and "I will do whatever you think is right" (which changed, of course, when he was tossed out of the house).

One thing my W said to me this am that's of some note and I had forgotten to post earlier: She said she's been frustrated by my "requirements." because I've said things like "you should urge him to get into counseling" or "what's he doing now" and then saying "I need you to stop contacting him." Like she's using my requests for status reports as excuses to get the information from him (and maybe say things like "I miss you").

-Qfwfq

Q-

Co-dependancy does not specifically involve alcoholics.....I was CO-dependant and it DID create much of the problems in the R with X. Might I suggest reading CO-dependancy no more by Melody Beattie. It will give you much insight as to what CO-dependancy is and how people are affected by it.......

"Call or email RM and tell him I'm going to fight for my M?" .... RM doesn't care. His own family is falling apart, why shoulld he give a rat's [censored] what you want? He is smudge on your boxers.

Pepper:

"He is smudge on your boxers"

I almost browned my drawers when I read that!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

...I'll be away for a bit, changing my boxers! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

-Qfwfq

Kily:

If codependency can involve spouses without substance problems, then I need to learn about it (and do so WITH my W). I'm no saint, mind you (although I'm pretty b****en' - just ask my friends! They'll tell you I'm ALWAYS b****en'!) but I do hereby acknowledge that I played a part in our M problems.

I told my W this morning "Okay, I'm willing to take full responsibility for EVERYTHING that's wrong and has been wrong in our R, and I'm happy to give you FULL CREDIT for EVERYTHING good that's happened to us and our family. Does that help?" Her answer was "no" and to come to my defense, but it didn't amount to much in the conversation overall.

-Qfwfq

I think it might be worthwhile to read the book.

co-dependancy is often misunderstood. What happens is that the co-dependant person has such low esteem that they find their self worth and identity through "helping" other people. This is a way of filling up the emptiness inside of them.

The deeds that are done are given with the expectation that this will provide acceptance from the other person. This is not a problem in itself, but there comes a time, as with ANY addiction where the acceptance isn't enough. The deeds get more demanding, the person is less satisfied by the recipients reactions and it spins out of control.

Often, the co-dependant will turn to another because the satisfaction of the cycle becomes empty.

Basically, the book summarizes traits, reasons, feelings, and things to do to break the cycle.....

It's all part of the same viscious WS cycle......

Kily:

You've described my W very well. She does things for others in our family so fast that she seldom has the opportunity to find out whether we'd do them ourselves. She told me this morning that she hates seeing how we all have fallen back into our old habits of leaving the dishes and the laundry or whatever for her to do. She herself has admired my D's doing her own laundry in the RECENT past, and it's certainly not true that I've "slacked off" from my post D-day "chipping in" efforts. It's her FOCUS that makes it look that way. And her tendency to keep speed-freak busy so much that there really are few opportunities for us to keep up, unless we clean up after ourselves the minute were through making a mess (not an unreasonable expectation, mind you, but an expectation that leads to frustration nonetheless).

-Qfwfq

Yup! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Sounds like me 3 years ago. Plus there is an intense ANGER there because she feels as if NO one apprecuates what it is that she's doing for them.....

It's definately something that needs to be addressed and there are support groups out there to help. CODA is one of them.

One question I have is whether there was substance abuse in her family when she was a child? If not then, how about grandparents. Often this trait is passed down generation after generation, but stems from an addiction based R.

Kily:

My FIL was an alchoholic. My W is the oldest of 4 kids, and had to take care of them many times without either parent around, beginning when she was about 12. She used to have to talk to bill collectors at the door. Her mom and siblings often slept in the car, and sometimes in the chicken coop, to get away from him after one of his binges. He used to wake up almost every night about 2am screaming at the top of his lungs. I heard some of this when I visited her before we were M'd and she was sharing an apartment with him (trying to help him out).

She also caught her dad and his OW having sex when she was 4 years old.

My W ended up helping her dad out many times over the years before and after we were M'd. Once, she saved his live-in GF's life after her dad stabbed her during an argument. The GF insisted she would be okay, but the hospital said she would have bled to death. After that incident (and a stint in jail), her dad changed. He remarried shortly after we M'd. A few years later, he stopped smoking and drinking and really STARTED to turn his life around. He turned out to be a great grandparent, which was probably the only way he could "apologize" for treating his family so poorly. My W's sister never saw him again after her parents DV'd. She didn't even go to his funeral. While he was still alive, he couldn't talk about what he'd done. I'm not sure he could face it.

My MIL was M'd to him for 20 years. Always believed that DV wasn't a viable option, but finally had to throw him out and DV him right around the time I met my W. My MIL remarried after we M'd, and wound up DV'd from HIM after 17 years. He had health problems and personality changes in the last few years they were M'd, and wasn't pleasant to her then. But he had come across to us as a very nice man up until then.

My W's bitterness about M's stems in large part from her experiences with her dad and her mom's "failed M's". Her mom has lived with us since the second DV, because the judge found very much in favor of her ex, giving her less than 200 bucks a month out of his retirement. He's still alive, but doesn't appear to be all there much of the time.

Her grandparents were terrific people. Her grandfather was a classic self-taught prospector in the southwest. He was killed in a mining accident about 35 years ago. Her grandmother was a terrific gal, up until she started "losing it" and blaming my MIL for things that many old people do. None of them founded. She died at the ripe old age of 99. I knew her pretty well, and admired her, though she was one of those old-timers that didn't relate well to in-laws, and so when I visited her alone while I was in town on business about 20 years ago, she was cordial but aloof. It was weird. My W still owns their house, and we go there a few times a year to get away from LA.

I'm supposed to go out there with her late next month. One of our first trips together, we spent a week there and put a new roof on her grandmother's shed. Each summer, we'd go there and do something, and whomp around the surrounding desert in my old VW bus. Over the past year, each time I've gone there, I've left wondering if I'll ever go back... <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" />

-Qfwfq

<small>[ February 03, 2003, 03:57 PM: Message edited by: Qfwfq ]</small>

This explains a LOT ....

Your W can't trust Q, because people in general (and men in particular) are not to be trusted.

Your W cannot commit to NC because life requires an escape plan.

Marriages don't last, therefore committment is not 100%.

"Watch your back" .... especially when it comes to loving men.

Q-

I agree with Pepper! WOW!

Now you have somewhere to start! Has she EVER sought out any counseling for this baggage.....Definately a caretaker-prime candidate for co-dependancy......So much damage that my heart is breaking for her. She's NEVER been whole in her entire life.

This A will NOT end until she faces those demons! How does she feel about all of this?

If I understand correctly, in a few months you'll be done with the house stuff so I wouldn't make any decisions until then. Too many excuses for contact and the situation will be too confusing. You've waited this long so why not give it a few more months?

Pepper, Kily:

You've helped me a great deal today!!!! Kily, I had no idea before your post that it was anything but an "excuse" for not being responsible to use the "codependency defense." Could I have so misunderstood Harley's article on this website???

My W was in MC with me from March to early July at Kaiser. I thought it was an inadequate experience. My W was also in IC at Kaiser about the same timeframe. I remember reading Harley's article to her sometime in August or September, but she'd already stopped seeing her counselor by that time.

A couple of times after my "sabbatical" in July, she asked me about my IC session with SH. But at that time, I was pretty disillusioned with my chances of saving my M, and decided to focus on unconditionally loving my W and bettering myself for whatever the outcome was. And to tell you the truth, when I compared/compare my "recovery" (which it isn't. M recovery at least. Possibly personal recovery) to stories on this forum and elsewhere, I really don't have a whole lot of hope for our future together. Because the status quo is so g** d****d QUO. Her plan hasn't changed AT ALL since before D-day.

Anyway, I wandered there. I would LOVE to get back into counseling WITH HER or individually, preferably both, but I don't know what to expect. So, Pepper and kily, you both pointing out the revelations YOU see in this has helped give me SOME hope, at least. Some place to start. But geez. How do you start to heal something like THIS. It's like trying to educate her on two separate issues she's reluctant to be educated about!

I apologize for not having given enough information over the past year to have sparked this light of understanding from you two. It's so hard, even knowing how safe our identities on this forum are, opening up like this...

"It's too late, this model's out of date.
I've got every spare part, but there ain't much heart inside here.
Not like the start, I was good at the art of survival.
I've always tried to keep my troubles deep inside
Where I can hide them. Now, I'm open wide."
-Peter Gabriel "Indigo"

Thank you,
-Qfwfq

Q ~

Considering her background, I'm going to disagree with Dr. Harley about co-dependency being BS.

I have no idea if your marriage is salvable, since it means she's going to have to face her demons. Co-dependent No-More by Melody Beattie would be a good read, but I'm going to suggest that you get a copy of " From Survial to Recovery ".
It's a book of stories and experiences of recovering co-dependents raised in alcoholic homes. Many parts of your wife's childhood experiences are on the pages of that book....

espoir:

More like several more months. And when you look at the big picture (since it's a historic monument), we'll be working on fine tuning things like interior designs for years to come... ...unless we just sell it and quit. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

But I take your point. I love her that much that I believe I can hang on longer. Many months longer if I need to. But I don't want to sweep our problems under the rug anymore, which is pretty much what we have done for the past year. We need to keep talking about them. I definitely DO acknowledge that it was HER this time that brought the subject up and started us talking. So, if I have to, I will wait.

-Qfwfq

Pepper:

I realize I may be trying to make sense out of nonsense, but:

"Your W can't trust Q, because people in general (and men in particular) are not to be trusted."

This is true. But if she can't trust men, why give herself to TWO of them???

"Your W cannot commit to NC because life requires an escape plan."

It also seems to require an "entrapment" plan, if that makes sense. I resisted buying that second (really third) house last summer because of all our unresolved issues. But I decided to show her how committed I am to her and her family, and so I ended up agreeing to buy it. My MIL and SIL live in it now. Also, my W is cutting back on her work time, and plans to quit this fall. She'll have to rely on my income to support her (she's teaching in her field, but only part time). She seems to be deliberately putting herself into a position of having to depend on me for support, but she doesn't want to lose RM either! (we talked a bit about dependency and M this morning, too).

"Marriages don't last, therefore committment is not 100%."

I hadn't thought of it this way, but it makes perfect sense. My W has an anthropology background, and is always pointing out to me that until recently, people didn't live much beyond our age, and so life-long M's don't have a precedent. !!!?? First of all, that conclusion is very subjective, and second of all, I don't believe the premise is even true!

"Watch your back" .... especially when it comes to loving men."

And again, why would someone fall in love with TWO men at the same time if we're all such pigs!!!????

I know, it will just burn brain cells trying to make sense of these things.

-Qfwfq

Q ~ I can answer your question...

2 men means that if one fails, the other is a backup. She's got a safety net and an escape route.

This is alot more complicated than just having her cake. Her truths, learned in childhood, say that men cheat, marriages don't last. So she's got her bases covered out of fear of what she sees as inevitable.

In Al-Anon, we learn that we are often driven to turn our fears into a self-fulfilling prophecy...

See where this is heading?

BR:

Yes, I do!

Boy, this all has me rather floored. A year of MB methods and this is NEWs! I can't help but wonder if my read of Harley's codependency article has prevented us making any real progress??

-Qfwfq