Well, I am probably dragging some of my own personal issues into this conversation. I am studying the issues adopted children have iregardless of how much they are loved by their adopted family. There is a sort of cellular, or visceral sense of pending abandonment that goes beyond reason.

If someone feels as though they might be abandoned at any given moment ... doesn't it make "sense" in a visceral sort of way to carry a "spare partner" in case of abandonment?

I don't know how abandoned your W felt as a little girl .... the emotional abandonment begins while living with an alcoholic. Her dad betrayed her (seeing her dad with OW). Her dad (who represents all men when she is a child) did not commit to marriage, to family, to honesty and integrity.

Don't be so hard on yourself. You did the best you could with what you knew. Now that you know better, you can do better. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Really truely, get the book I mentioned. If anything it will help you in your plan A and your compassion for your wife, especially if you choose to continue plan A.

She's co-dependent, no doubt about it. But just like the alcoholic or addict, she's going to have to choose to get help and to get better. This isn't something you can fix.

Pepper:

BR and I posted at the same time. Below, I was replying to this statement of yours:

"I don't know how abandoned your W felt as a little girl .... the emotional abandonment begins while living with an alcoholic. Her dad betrayed her (seeing her dad with OW). Her dad (who represents all men when she is a child) did not commit to marriage, to family, to honesty and integrity."

And her MOM just PUT UP WITH IT for 20 years!! My W was angry with her, still is, for not DVing him a LOT sooner than she did... And then her mom put up with it again from her second H for another 17 years!! And my W is angry with her for doing that. And now she's angry with the judge that decided so against her mom after that DV.

She's said a couple of times that this second A with RM started because her mom was living in the house with us, and that (along with other problems we were having) drove her to revive the A with RM!!

There are times when I feel, rather strongly, that I should cut my losses immediately and get the hell out. But cutting my losses NOW, after being M'd to her for 27 years and raising a terrific couple of kids with her, and the non-trivial fact that I have never stopped loving her, seems insane.

-Qfwfq

<small>[ February 03, 2003, 04:48 PM: Message edited by: Qfwfq ]</small>

im confused- this is your third name, the Q name? i knew you as something else-can i ask why the name changes?

BR said this golden truth:

This isn't something you can fix."

I know how hard this is, you like to fix things .... but, this is not yours to fix.

BR:

And how long does it take codependents to recover?? Years????

And do I back off on NC demands for that long???? (I don't think I can!).

RM must GO.

-Qfwfq

ps.-i have been wondering what happened to you and now i have to go look up all the posts. i'm glad you sound strong-you didnt sound this way when we last spoke.

i also agree with what pepper and bramble are telling you.

nikko:

Yep. Third. The second name change was just last week. I posted it on GQII.

-Qfwfq

<small>[ February 03, 2003, 05:54 PM: Message edited by: Qfwfq ]</small>

Pepper:

Boy, I'm not getting anything done today - WORKwise, that is!

"This isn't something you can fix."

I know how hard this is, you like to fix things .... but, this is not yours to fix."

I realize I'm no expert. Did very poorly in psychology classes. I like good, old fashioned ROCKS. They don't argue with me. They seldom cheat on me, and when they do, I just toss them and pick up another one...

But, what do I DO? If I can't fix this, who can? And what do I do while it's going on???? Let the A resume?????????? Let the EA continue???????????????????????????? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

Help! most definitely. Please.

-Qfwfq

Q ~

I'm not a professional, and a professional opinion is one you must have.

My opinion is that you can only make choices for yourself and what you are willing to live with. You can't force her to do what you need.

If RM must go, you have a choices:

1. You can LB by selfishly demanding that she do NC.

OR

2. You can restate your boundary, wait to see what happens, and then take steps to protect that boundary if she does not choose to respect your needs. This is usually something along the lines of Plan B, or separation/divorce. But its really up to you to decide how you will remove RM from your life.

You are looking for the right thing to do that will give you the outcome you want. Attempts of this nature, to control the outcome of a situation, are usually met with frustration.

You're excited to have just gotten some new insight into your wife, and I know there's part of you probably thinking: WOW, maybe THIS piece of information will help me fix (ie control) this situation!

In Al-Anon we talk about Awareness, Acceptance, and Action.

When I have a problem, and I finally gain some insight into it (Awareness), I usually get excited and rush off trying to take Action (ie force a solution to suit me). I still struggle with this in my life, although in Al-Anon I've learned to be a bit better about it. Acceptance is listed in between Awareness and Action because acceptance of reality is required to make decisions that work. You might want to just sit on this new information for awhile and process it, before making any decisions. A good counselor might be able to help you here.

Start with making an inventory of principles you choose to live by. And then, live by those principles.

Help her grieve.
Support her healthy choices.
Offer understanding.
Listen.
Nonverbal communication.
Admire her strength.
Acknowledge she is a survivor.
Touch.
Share.

BR:

Good points. I believe that I can come to some degree of acceptance of the codependency issue pretty soon. After all, it was sometime around last March or April that my W first told me that her IC was on that track with her. But why did she quit seeing her IC, I wonder? Was it because her IC said "it is not unreasonable for your H to expect you to stop talking to RM" on her LAST VISIT, when she had been telling me that the IC had said early on "It IS unreasonable for your H to expect you to stop talking to RM".

So, it seems the most I can "do" is ask that she consider getting back into counseling, and with someone REALLY qualified. Frankly, that IC at Kaiser may have been good, but they're visits are too far apart, I'm afraid.

Got to get past my fears.

As for "action," I guess the only thing I can do is plan B or DV, if I can't live with it long term and it looks like this might take a long time.

-Qfwfq

Pepper:

Thanks!

"Help her grieve."

I made an overt effort to do this with her last spring. My IC (the measured honesty guy) had suggested that I focus on either-or choices that require grieving the loss of the alternative choice, and so I tried to do that in our MC session. She got angry during the session, and cried on the way home. She went to work in the field the next day, and she called me from the field, and said something like this: "I just realized that I've never broken up with anybody before in my life." She was crying. I immediately said "I love you and want to help in anyway I can." But like many things like that in the past year, by the time she was home a couple of days later, the thought was gone and the status quo was right back.

"Support her healthy choices."

I do, or so I think. I try to congratulate her on her improvements - like she's gone from being hypercritical of her FRIENDS at work, to just complaining about them from time to time. She's even loaned my copies of Greg Baer's CDs to TWO of them.

"Offer understanding."

I made my first breakthrough in this area last June, but then had to go on my sabbatical in July because I had ASSUMED she had made more progress than she had, and her contact with RM was still going on and was still personal.

"Listen."

I'm definitely doing a better job of this, but I have a ways to go (to meet my own standards)

"Nonverbal communication."

We've been very good with this over the past 6 months or so. I cherish simple things we do together, like watching Farscape, sitting on the couch and stroking her hair. Spooning at night. Working on the house. Going to swap meets. Going to Utah... And many more.

"Admire her strength."

She can be a very strong person. She's been the "rock" in her family since she was a child. Ironic, huh?

"Acknowledge she is a survivor."

I have said this to her, but usually she's depressed when it comes up. I don't get much of a response, but I'll keep it up.

"Touch.
Share."

Yep. I'm getting better at the "sharing" part, though I still think I have a ways to go to be good at opening up all my fears and weaknesses to her - after all, she has a fallback that might HEAR about these weaknesses. ...the catch 22!

-Qfwfq

Hmmm,

Q ~

Here's an immediate action for you:

Run, don't walk, to your nearest Barnes and Noble, and pick up a copy of: The Language of Letting Go.

Then start reading everything you can find on acceptance.

Pepper:

"Q ..... STOP SPINNING ..... your wife is not emotionally healthy. You cannot demand someone be healthy"

Now what? I wouldn't even demand that she get help. I'd like to suggest it, though. I can't just ignore it, or educate MYSELF about and wait forever (possibly) for her to do the same, can I?

Or should I assume that this is like the question: "If your W were paralized in an accident, would you stay with her or leave her if she couldn't be a "wife" in the physical sense?" If she's not emotionally healthy, should I allow the unhealthy behavior continue? Or simply firmly state that I can't live like this and get out?

I think I know the answers to this hypothetical. In the first case, she wouldn't CHOOSE to be paralized, but in the second case, she has CHOSEN her behavior, whether it's rooted in some problem from her childhood or not.

I still don't know what I'd do, though.

-Qfwfq

The "fallback" is boxer smudge ....
She has never broken up with anyone ??? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" /> .... jeeze! That means others have broken up with her??? She doesn't want to "abandon" a relationship (even an inappropriate and emotionally strange A relationship). I see her dilemma. She really thinks she is supportive toward RM. She is rescuing HIM!!! I'll bet you 20 pesos, RM drinks a lot.

BR:

Thanks! That's what I'm looking for. What *I* can do about ME and what I may need to do whether my W seeks help for herself or not.

-Qfwfq

Q I gotta go. Talk later.

Don't "do" anything!!!(except Barnes and Noble)!!!.... you're not grounded.

<small>[ February 03, 2003, 05:31 PM: Message edited by: Pepperband ]</small>

Q - good stuff here.

kily, pepper, Rosie - this has been instructive for me as well. My XW fits the co-dependency template to a T, based on the info in this thread. I hadn't given this a lot of attention previously because I wasn't in a place where I could apply any diagnoses - it was always damage control that ultimately didn't matter what the cause was. She is clearly not emotionally healthy, regardless of the reason. Now this all seems VERY spooky. At least I'm in a good place now having completely let go and moving on. But for the sake of my son, I will start to research this to see how best to protect him.

Thanks,
WAT