Pepper:

"The "fallback" is boxer smudge ...."

That's a GREAT NAME, but I can't very well be calling him "BS" now, can I!?

"She has never broken up with anyone ??? .... jeeze! That means others have broken up with her???"

Yes, apparently. Although I can think of one guy that she may have broken up with around the time I first met her.

"She doesn't want to "abandon" a relationship (even an inappropriate and emotionally strange A relationship). I see her dilemma. She really thinks she is supportive toward RM. She is rescuing HIM!!!"

This is almost exactly what she said to me last month during our "argument!" My mind boggles when I think of how is it that an intelligent woman, smart enough to have concluded that the A was "a destructive fantasy" and she "was losing [her] mind" and ended THAT part of their A 2 months before I found out, could actually believe that she'd be abandoning her "friend" by getting out of his life so that he could put his family back together. I still can't get it.

"I'll bet you 20 pesos, RM drinks a lot."

That would be an interesting twist. Is it common for daughters of alchoholics to hook up with alchoholics?? Or become one themselves? I don't think she is, but she did drink TOO much when the A started, and once after D-day when I went up to visit her where she was working - she was pretty sick that day.

I did see an old email message from RM from about 1995 (after the first A "ended" but they'd still see each other at conferences). He said something like "maybe we could have a beer, or two, or three, or four, or five..."

-Qfwfq

Pepper:

"Don't "do" anything!!!(except Barnes and Noble)!!!.... you're not grounded."

I agree, I'm not. And I promise. I won't be making a run to Kaiser for anti-D's tonight!!

-Qfwfq

WAT:

And what worries me is that going the route you took may be my only avenue. I still don't think this is hopeless, but am I kidding myself?

Regardless, I need to read up on letting go to get ME emotionally healthy. I won't be critical of her IC's codependency track anymore. In fact, I think I should apologize. But the healing is her choice to make.

-Qfwfq

Yes Q,

Daughters of alcoholics frequently marry them.

Alcoholism is a family disease, and carries on from generation to generation.

In my situation:

Both of my grandfathers were raging alcoholics.

My parents don't drink, but carried on the raging dysfunction in my childhood home. There were 10 children in my family.

Here's how we've turned out so far:

I'm the oldest.

1. Me: married to an alcoholic
2. Sister: married to an alcoholic from a raging alcoholic family.
3. Brother: recovering alcoholic, married to a daughter of an unrecovered alcoholic
4. Sister: recovering alcoholic, married to a raging co-dependent
5. Brother: struggling to recover alcoholic, married to an unrecovered raging alcoholic, whose ILs kicked him and his unrecovered wife out of the house over the holidays because he belonged to a cult called Alcoholics Anonymous.
6. Sister: died at 19 at college in an accident. No signs of alcoholism, but no idea about her choices of life partners.
7. Brother: unrecovered, very much in denial alcoholic
8. Sister: unsure, but suspect alcoholism, makes poor choices about men
9. Sister: no alcoholism, attracted to dysfunctional men
10. Sister: no idea yet, she's only 13.

dear q- now it makes sense- that was one year d-day anniv. for me- i was in a coma! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

i'm sorry i missed all that was going on. i have often wondered about your situation, but never realized what happened. thanks.

i still think pep and bramble are onto something- good luck.

Hey Q,

Chill. You are ramping up about something you won't and cannot address. You have already stated that you won't leave until house is done. So don't worry about leaving until house is done.

You have also realize that you cannot address her issues. No matter how much you want to you need to leave her issues alone and stick to your kids and your rocks, Ok you can look through a telescope now and then, fair??? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Seriously, you can be there for her, but you cannot do anything but set your boundaries, your timeline, and act on them accordingly when the time lines come to evaluation points and/or your boundaries are crossed.

If she needs OM for security, then she gets him. He is easy. She doesn't seem to feel she truely needs you for security, although she is doing her share of cake eating.

I would focus a lot more on your son. He will need some help adjusting. There is no sense in complaining. Yeah, I know if you don't complain your W thinks everything is just fine. She is pretty clueless. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

But, as for you the decisions are somewhat binary. +/- on the marriage. Am I at the decision point yet? If yes, is it go/(no go) on the marriage? From their it is straight forward.

It really is simple, just not very easy. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Must go, but don't let this stuff get you cycling on it, OK?

JL

JL:

Thanks! And my promise to you is to not overreact (gee, what would overreacting to this kind of sitch consist of??? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> _

Yep. Simple, but not easy. I haven't forgotten the rodeo!

-Qfwfq

BR:

My Gawd! And I thought my problems were the biggest in the whole world!!! I'm glad that you've turned out well, though!

My parents were Christian Scientists. No drinking or smoking. Both my grandmothers were, too. Both my grandfathers were not. My mother's father was an alchoholic, I THINK (Bigsis, if she lurks still, can verify). He smoked a lot, though and had to have his vocal chords removed when I was a teenager. He died a few years after that. My dad's dad didn't drink, if I remember correctly. He smoked a pipe, though.

Like I've said, I'm not an alchoholic, but I have been known to drink more than I should, particularly in the past year. It's recently been pointed out to me that I'm starting to drink up to a 12-pack a weekend again, and so I'm starting to cut back on that. I do like good beers, though, and would hate to quit. But I'd do it in a New York Minute if my W were to offer BS, I mean RM up for a classic, good ol-fashioned Aztec sacrifice! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

-Qfwfq

Q - ditto JL.

I'm a little ways ahead of you, concentrating on my son. I cannot help XW until she is ready to help herself. But I feel like I am personnaly in a much better place. If not for my son's welfare, I conclude that I am MUCH better off than previously. You can get here.

WAT

As i become more educated on the way of "women" I see how they all have a common way of thinking.
when i first found out about my wife's EA i went nuts. Worried my way to the emergency room one night, with stomach acid in my throat. That was the day i started to understand their way of thinking.

In a nutshell, if i were you, try and take your relationship back to the beginning. Thats what brought my wife back to me. Give her the reassurance of unconditional love, quit the drinking. Work harder on your plan A. Simple things, such as taking a jacuzzi together, brushing her hair at night while watching TV, or lotioning her legs and feet go a long way in showing you are intimately concerned with her.

My wife admitted she was getting the attention, from OM that i was not giving. I was lucky enough to find this site and read the book "the seven rules of marriage" by Dr. Goodman, which opened my eyes to things i never would have thought of. Which in my opinion stopped the progression of the affair, which in my opinion would have moved to PA. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Its easy to say "this women is crazy, or my wife dosen't understand me. But when you learn thousands of other women react and think the same way, its truly amazing. But the good thing is, now that i have some understanding of this thing called "marriage" I'am well armed and prepared to travel the road to a happy marriage. Good luck.

WAT:

Thanks. I admire your ability to cope through what you've experienced.

My biggest challenge, for self improvement reasons, is going to be the "letting go" education. I've been a "clingon" in all my previous relationships. Like my W, I never broke up with anybody before either. I either avoided getting involved with them when they were interested and I wasn't, or I fell head-over-heels for them and got dumped. No long term or "serious" relationships though, and all during high school. I think I've recovered pretty well... ...and it hasn't taken the WHOLE 32 years to do it! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

I guess I just can't yet imagine "letting go" of my W, because I equate that with "giving up." In a way, it sounds like it, but it really isn't. Like my W giving up RM would be doing him a favor, I'd be doing myself a favor and maybe even my W, if it evoked a desire in her to solve her problems.

-Qfwfq

wokeup:

Interesting username, by the way!

I've been doing many of the things you said you're doing. They work the best of anything I've tried. I guess a lot of the time I guess I'm further along than I am, and I try to get her to go "to the next level" and it results in a disappointing argument, so I back off. The baby steps continue. I continue to hope for the best, too. But I'll be careful and never stop learning.

-Qfwfq

Q; my friend,
We cannot fix them, we cannot make them fix themselves, we can't even suggest they need fixing, much less "help" them go get fixed.

This we must accept. What accepting this means...only YOU can say.

SC:

Good to hear from you, buddy!

You're right. I can't make her do anything. Fix herself, fix RM, even go to IC again.

I do intend to apologize for my disrespectful judgement of her IC's focus on codependency. I was wrong, and I may have caused damage to my sitch by insisting I was right.

Yep, only I can decide whether to hang on or not. I will hang on for now, but my guess is that, since I see no evidence that she's even interested in entertaining the possibility of ending this twelve-year long inappropriate relationship, I'll have to start thinking about DV in the not-too-distant future. A lot goes with that decision, though, that I'm going to have to weigh the consequences of.

-Qfwfq

Q - Gee, I go away for a day and look how much I missed! Don't have a lot of time right now, but a couple of points:

* I haven't broken up with anyone before, either (heck, I never even dated anyone else. Same for my wife (pre-OM, of course). In our case, since we are inexperienced at "dumping," neither of us is in a hurry to start now, at least with each other. Must admit it doesn't help in dealing with OM, though.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> *My W doesn't agree that "lies of omission" are lies. But she said she was updating me because I believed they are. This is a HUGE problem for me. I didn't make "lies of omission" up. It's a REAL THING. And so this is a crucial area for me to explore. If her lifestyle can include "lies of omission" as harmless, mine can't and we'll be better off apart. She doesn't understand the tremendous HURT that causes me.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">That's a biggie for me as well, Q. The possible breakthrough I alluded to on the other site more or less centered on that very issue. My wife finally acknowledged that her lack of forthrightness was causing me pain, and she agreed to be straight with me. Her lack of disclosure was the primary block to trusting her with anything. But as you and I discussed earlier, her hiding contact was her way of shielding me from additional pain, but it had the opposite effect. I think we've dealt with that one effectively and can now begin to make some real progress.

I've also had to deal with my wife's childhood issues through all of this. Her family was a mess. I thought I more or less "rescued" her from all of that, but the behavior patterns she learned as a young person dealing with grown-up problems were at least partially responsible for her getting sucked into an A in the first place.

So I think you're wise to consider her past issues, co-dependancy or whatever else they may be. Counseling has helped my wife tremendously in helping her recognize her patterns. Sure wish yours could find someone to help her sort that stuff out, because she may have to face her past to help her deal effectively with the present. That's something that we can't do for them, unfortunately.

You're loving her, you've demonstrated how loyal you can be, you've given her a pretty long tether to work with - not much else you can do but keep being Q. I'll check back with you later.

Well, Q, your post on my thread really got me going, so I thought I ought to check this one out. WOW have you all ever been busy little posters today! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

I really do think Kily, Pepper and BrambleRose are onto something here.

The codependancy thing may in fact apply to my H too....but I'll post about that on my thread.

Bramble's remark about your wife learning truthts in childhood that say men cheat, marriages don't last, so she keeps her bases covered out of a fear of what she sees as the inevitable, and the fact that in Alanon they say that we are often driven to turn our fears into a self-fulfilling prophecy.....YIKES! This is a brand new explanation of my infidelity! (My mom's first H cheated on her with her BF, and she never stopped being bitter about it her whole life....) WOW. Big realization. (I'm like your wife here Q, sort of.)

But, like me, we both need to keep in mind that no matter how much we learn or realize, our spouses need to learn it for themselves I guess. I like that remark about how Alanon teaches people to go from Awareness to Acceptance and then to action (to remind some of us overly eager beavers not to skip the acceptance stage and rush into action, like we can take care of it right now because we've become aware of it).

It sounds like you've had an interesting and informative day Q! I hope you can go from Awareness to Acceptance, or something like that.

Jen

PS: BrambleRose, Kily and maybe Pepper, can you take a peek at my thread and most recent post and give me your 2 cents worth, pretty please? http://www.marriagebuilders.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=37&t=022415#000014

<small>[ February 03, 2003, 08:35 PM: Message edited by: Jen Brown ]</small>

Wow, three R convos in less than 24 hours, all initiated by my W! And, unlike the arguments we had last March and April, we were calm the whole time.

Here's how the second and third convo went:

Not surprisingly, I went home last evening with synapses firing all over the place with thoughts of what I should do or not do... When I got home, my W got home shortly after I did, and we settled into having dinner and watching Farscape DVD's on the Lobotomy Box with my son. The status seemed pretty quo to me, so I didn't make a big deal one way or the other with my behavior.

The first sign that anything was on my W's mind (that was different from before) was that while I was sitting on the floor eating dinner (it's only a one-bdrm apt, and my son and I have model airplane parts all over the dining room table), she came over and mussed up my hair in fun (she NEVER does that to me <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> ). Anyway, we watched our shows and then headed off to the sack because she had to get up early with our D and head off to the field today.

After she took a shower and came to bed, she snuggled real close and thanked me for talking to her in the morning, and being honest with her and not getting angry. I was thinking "hm, this is nice, but we've had 'nice' before after nasty fights, so I'm not going to put too much stock in it." Then she said something to this effect "I know how much this has hurt you, and I'm sorry." I don't think I can remember her EVER apologizing, unless it was to do so sarcastically, which of course isn't an apology. I think I said "It still hurts, a lot. But I realize that you've been hurting this whole time too, and I'm sorry for my part in that."

We talked some more about the house and our troubles with it, and I did my best to be encouraging, but the house troubles to me are really miniscule compared to our M problems. I am supportive, after all I have to live there, too, but I honestly don't remember much of that part of the convo, because it doesn't seem as relevant to me as the R convo stuff.

At one point, an opportunity came up for me to apologize for insisting that her IC was wrong in exploring the codependency issue last summer, and my W, somewhat jokingly said "don't worry about it. I probably wasn't listening to you then." It really was funny, though it might not sound like that reading it here.

We snuggled some more and she held my hand tightly, and quickly fell asleep. We woke up before the alarm, just before 5am, and I heard her crying. So I held her and asked her what was wrong. She said "Do the bad dreams ever stop?" and I replied "I think they will, but it may take time. Do you want to talk about it?" But she said "I don't think so."

She got up and got dressed about a half hour later and went to work.

So, here I am. Different day, slightly different $h!+. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />
-Qfwfq

SiSF:

"My wife finally acknowledged that her lack of forthrightness was causing me pain, and she agreed to be straight with me. Her lack of disclosure was the primary block to trusting her with anything. But as you and I discussed earlier, her hiding contact was her way of shielding me from additional pain, but it had the opposite effect. "

I'm not sure my W was quite doing this when she apologized to me, but it's possible. She did it just after thanking me for being honest with her. The hiding of contact continues to be the most obvious expression of her continued dishonesty with me, or her continuing her secret second life. In my case, I'm not sure how much her hiding contact from me is based on a desire to shield me from pain, versus continue the inappropriate R with RM.

I'm not sure I care that much about it right now. I'm interested in this recent change in her desire to talk to me about our M, and I'll do whatever I can to foster it. But 12 years is a long time, and I'm going to continue to protect myself for whatever the outcome of all this may be.

-Qfwfq

SiSF:

"You're loving her, you've demonstrated how loyal you can be, you've given her a pretty long tether to work with - not much else you can do but keep being Q"

So darned true, SiSF!
-Qfwfq

Jen:

I'm sorry if my post to your thread upset you. I was in a funk at that time, and reading what your H is saying to you STILL really angered me. I'm sorry.

That whole thread yesterday was interesting, and enlightening for me. I really had thought that I could safely rule out codependency last summer, and was frustrated that her IC seemed to be going down a blind alley rather than helping my W to end her A. I was wrong, and now I hope I can make some real progress on my par that will look attractive enough to my W that maybe, just maybe she'll decide to make some progress of her own.

But in spite of my excitement over that education I got yesterday, I feel pretty much like the light at the end of the tunnel was just revealed to me as being a LOT farther away than I thought it was, and so it STILL might be a train. At the same time, my resolve to try to save this M is a bit stronger too. I can only hope it will stay strong and do so for long enough to make a difference.

-Qfwfq

<small>[ February 04, 2003, 09:43 AM: Message edited by: Qfwfq ]</small>