Krissee:

I'm taking the liberty of pasting this comment from you from Jen's thread:

" Most co-dependent people I think of are the martyr type - you know always doing way too many nice things for people and not taking care of themselves, thriving on a crisis they can assist with, that kind of thing. They tend to reach out to help others in an unhealthy way. Teachers just guide and teach. Not sure if I'm clear on this. I'm sure others have a clearer way to explain co-dependancy."

This, too, describes my W to a T. She got into "trouble" when she perceived that she wasn't getting ANY effort on the part of those she was helping to help HER with her problems, which were mounting. RM was one of the people she "helped" while they were in grad school together. I sometimes wonder if she took pity on him because he had to move out of state after their first A before he could finish his PhD. He's been back several times to take tests and give oral presentations to his committee, but no dice. It's been something like 8 or 10 years since he started. In the end, I would not predict that he'll ever graduate, because I don't think his thesis is tenable. But that may be my prejudice talking. I won't pretend I don't still hate him.

-Qfwfq

And to all of you wonderful people that helped me with the codependency and "letting go" issues yesterday, I wanted to tell you this thought I had after your reminding me to look into literature about letting go:

I've been so reluctant to let go that it isn't funny. I need to work on THAT, for ME. When I read posts from Pepper and BR about letting go, I realized what a selfish desire it was for me to "top" the duration of my parents 50yr M, or maybe even my grandparents 64yr M, by spending the rest of my life with my W. Maybe I will be albe to do that after this crisis is over, but hanging onto that hope has put blinders on my ability to consider ALL the possible futures. AND let these possible futures be GOOD things.

-Qfwfq

WOW!

I missed a lot!

Q-

I just wanted to say that she CAN recover. It took me about two years before I was fully self accepting. I've posted this story several times on this forum.

As others have stated, you can't fix this-she needs to. Give her the Melody Beattie book. If she will not read it, ask her if YOU can read it to her!

I remember the day that my LAB partner handed me this book. I looked at it, and through it in a drawer. Totally dismissed the idea of this. A few months later, I picked it up. I remember the relief that I started to feel while reading this book. I finally saw that there was a REASON for feeling what I felt. I was validated as a human being. It was the first step on a LONG journey towards my emotional well being.

If you CAN hang on long enough, and she is willing to seriously look at herself-then you can heal this M. It is not an easy road, but the person that she will become will be 100% worth the effort, and I promise- RM's presence will be LONG gone when you're through.....

Kily:

I think my W has one or two books about codependency that she started reading some months ago. I don't think she's reading them now. I think I remember her saying, a couple or three months back, that it was too hard to get through them, they depressed her too much. And I dismissed the remark as irrelevant because I didn't believe it was the problem! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

But would reading it TO her come across as educating her? A very tricky distinction. On the other hand, one of the things we used to do (still do when we can, but we've been awfully busy since the fire) was lay in bed and read a Scifi novel together (she's dyslexic, so I read faster than she does). It can be quite enjoyable. One of the first times we did this was not long after we were M'd. I'd brought a book with me when we were at her grandmother's house, and one day when we took her mom and brother fishing in the mountains, my W and I sat on a rock by the stream and I read the entire book to her. She still talks about that day from time to time...

-Qfwfq

kily,

I'm going to disagree with you. I don't think he should or could push the book at her unless she requests it.

Educating your spouse is still an LB and always will be.

What he needs to do is read the Language of Letting Go to rescue himself.

The thing about changing yourself is that yourself is the 50% of the relationship you do have control over. If you change 50% of a relationship, it can't possibly stay the same.

Will it heal the relationship? Who knows?

My husband is still an active alcoholic. However, when I let go of the outcome of my marriage, and I changed myself, focusing on my codependency issues, it changed our relationship so much that my husband choose to change to join me because I was suddenly a desirable life partner, whereas in the past, I had not been.

Q must do the same thing. Fix himself. The inability to let go is a hard one. I suspect that until he does, the marriage won't move forward into recovery.

BR:

"The thing about changing yourself is that yourself is the 50% of the relationship you do have control over. If you change 50% of a relationship, it can't possibly stay the same."

Precisely! And it's comforting to realize, as a scientist, that "50%" is significant! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

-Qfwfq

Q-

That is where my thoughts were. Ask her.

Tell her that you WANT to know more about THIS subject-don't tell her WHY-and ask if she would mind if you read it to her. I thought that it would be painful for her, but that your interest in it would actually form a BOND......

Basically, she is going to have to go through the 12 step program, just like an alcoholic. There are books out there that can aide you if you don't want to go to a support group.

Q- I really think that you ARE on to something, and I have't read the Harley article on CO-dependancy, but I think I am going to right after this post. I will give you my 2cents about it later......

Hugs--

kily:

I don't think I'll do anything that might come across as a desire to educate her, however:

"I thought that it would be painful for her, but that your interest in it would actually form a BOND......"

I think our talking about it last night DID form a bond, though she may have sounded like she was trivializing my apology for poo-pooing her IC's approach when she said she hadn't listened. The point was she was cheerful about it, and I certainly noticed that.

When I think back on my reaction to her desire to talk last night, I realize that I was a bit surprised that she thought our talk in the morning was such a positive step, because I thought it was still mostly about negative things (my original post). Her reaction, in retrospect, was uplifting for me.

-Qfwfq

Q-

I think that SOMETHING is in the air.

You've really touched on an issue that many people are learning from......

It's also giving me some perspective on how far I have come. I see how far you have too.....

BR gave me permission to copy this from her post to Jen Brown's thread. I think it's another piece of this puzzle for me, as it describes a LOT of my W's behavior since I met her. It helps me to understand her, not try to change her, of course.

Thanks BR!

"What is a codependent?

Hmmm...I think codependents are primarily externally focused, but incredibly self-centered.

A perpetual victimized doormat (from choice) who seeks to control everyone and every event around him/herself.

I don't know how to describe it in a concise manner. A co-dependent has no self-esteem, relying on the opinions of others to support his/her self-identity.

A co-dependent knocks themselves out giving to others...true. But it is NOT selfless, it is profoundly selfish. A codependent gives too much in an effort to achieve a certain reaction from others. It's called manipulation at its most insidious.

Do you get the feeling that I think that co-dependency ain't no little benign disorder!?!

When I am acting like a co-dependent...I do things for others that they can and should do for themselves. What's wrong with that? Well, by doing for others, I deny the other person the benefit, the life lessons, and the growth opportunity that they might have gotten from doing for him/herself. My very giving is actually a harm to the receiver.

Not only that, but you see, my giving doesn't come without strings. Now I will probably protest and ask nothing in return. But trust me, I'm lying. My expectations are that you will: Think I am a wonderful person, and since YOU think I am wonderful, then it must be true. 2. Even cooler, maybe you'll depend on me. Codependents are sooo dependable! But you see, if you are dependant on me...then you can't leave me. See the control?

But what really happens more often than not?

Your praise, thanks and gratitude are never quite enough. And I grow resentful that you weren't appreciative in the way that *I* think you should be. And God forbid you decide that I am not incredibly necessary in your life - probably because I have attempted to manipulate and control every decision you ever tried to make, just in case your decision is different than mine, and of course, you couldn't possibly be wise enough, smart enough, to make decisions and choices for yourself, you need SMART WISE (arrogant and proud) me to tell you what to do. Besides, if I let you make decisions on your own, you might do something that hurt me. And because instead of excercising boundaries to protect myself, I attempt to exert control over others to protect myself. Of course, when you don't bow to my manipulation and control, I am resentful and angry. If only you had listened to ME. Never mind that I was bossy, disrespectful and rude, you should have listened to my superior wisdom!

What does it all boil down to? FEAR. I am afraid that I will be nothing if others don't think well of me. So I do whatever I can to appease others so that I can continue to exist. (Really, I'm not exaggerating). I am afraid that if you don't do what I want you to do, that something terrible will happen to hurt me. I don't know how to protect myself with healthy boundaries, I don't trust myself or others, I only know how to control others preemptively, to keep them from harming me. Of course I tell myself and others that I only have YOUR benefit at heart....but the reality is, my fear, my pride, my selfishness are what motivates my actions. Not virtue and charity.

When I control others out of fear that I will be abandoned, I achieve what I feared. I drive others away from me, and I feel victimized, brutalized and used...never understanding my own role in my situation.

And many codependents....like me...discovered that this whole victim thing is pretty cool. If I wail and wring my hands, or silently suffer in public, many other people will feel sorry for me and make admiring comments aboit what a wonderful person I am. And maybe, if the other person no longer responds to my demands that they do what I want them to, I can make them feel guilty enough that they'll respond the "correct, ie my" way.

So you tell me, recognize any of this?"

Kily:

Thanks, I think so too. For the first time, I think I can understand a lot about my W that just hopelessly confused me in the recent past.

I certainly hope that our convos yesterday and this morning are the beginnings of great things in the progress arena, but I will NEVER expect them!

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />
-Qfwfq

wanted to say one more thing. (two cents). To help you learn from my beginning mistake, DDon't and i repeat Don't try to bash the OM. It will just move you W closer to the underdog. You have to remember you are in compition, with the guy unfortunatly. My OM is a real jerk, but i bite my lip. If you say bad things <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> about him, she will defend him. It can turn into a major LB.

Just continue to be the best you can, and meet all the EN's he is meeting, and you will win because of the time you are spending over him. Just wanted to say this last night but had to run. good luck.

wokeup:

Don't worry! much, at any rate. I try not to bash RM to my W. I don't need to. He's a master at self-bashing!

I just bash him here. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />
-Qfwfq

Well, nothing happened last night or this morning. I was hoping that we would continue to talk about us.

I woke up depressed this morning, and tried very hard not to show it. I'm getting the sense that my W is detaching from me, more and more with time, and in spite of anything I can do. I can't explain it. We're close (the wordless affection stuff), but she won't say ILY at all, or anything close to it, and doesn't respond at all if I say it to her. We've had SF twice in the past 2 or 3 weeks (infrequent for us!). Basically, I've backed off asking her if she's interested, and waited for her to initiate. At first, this worked very well, and it was a lot of fun. But the last 3 or 4 times were only "okay" for me, though she seemed to have fun. This morning, I was interested, but she clearly was not. I felt almost disgusted with myself.

"I woke up depressed this morning, and tried very hard not to show it."

~~~ And how has this cover-up helped you or her?

Pepper:

Thanks! (I'm going to have to run for some ice to keep the swelling down from that knot on the side of my haid).

Obviously, it's made ME miserable! And it didn't help US at all, either.

Groan. Sometimes I just want someone to jump in the window, tell us exactly what to do when, and jump out again. Problems solved!

-Qfwfq

My pleasure .. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

I have to be careful posting after gettin' myself all riled up on da'udder thread.

Aren't old habits a ***** to break?

Pepper:

Yep, old habits are hard to shake...

Hey, you don't suppose the manufacturers of "penis extenders" make "people evolvers" do you? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Time for the evolutionary tree to branch!

-Qfwfq

Q You are involved in the people evolver process as we speak.

Patience for your own growth.

"I woke up depressed this morning, and tried very hard not to show it. I'm getting the sense that my W is detaching from me, more and more with time, and in spite of anything I can do."

How many times have I felt this way in the past year? Dozens. How many good days did I waste in the process? Dozens. As I look back on it, my hesitation to reveal my feelings or confront my wife on issues that were important to me (e.g., your ILY) resulted in a big waste of time and hindered our recovery. We weren't moving forward in our recovery until I finally dealt with my feelings in a straightforward way. The days (weeks, even) that I spent wondering what my wife was really thinking, or what she really meant by things she had said or not said, were all impediments to our progress.

Forgive me if you already addressed this in earlier posts, but have you asked your wife directly why she seems to have trouble saying ILY? If so, what was her response?

I guess the thing that struck me with your post was your having a "sense" that she was detaching. I had that same sense, Q, and when I finally addressed that with my wife, I found that wasn't true at all. I was the one detaching! I wasted a lot of time fretting over things that weren't as bad as I had conjured up in my head, all because I didn't deal with things in a direct manner. Want to know why your wife doesn't say ILY? Ask her. Or if she feels like SF or not? Ask her. Dancing around the issues is a setback and displaces potentially good times. I know of this firsthand.

I'm not preaching to you here, Q. I'm just now discovering these things in my own life. I've always been one to supress outward expressions of negative emotions, and my lack of openness is something I'm working very hard on. So far, results are encouraging. I'm becoming a safer person for my wife to open up to, because she isn't left having to guess how I'd react to certain things or wonder what I'm really thinking/feeling.

In the year since d-day, I have done as much to stall our progress by "dancing" around issues as my wife has by her occasional contacts with OM. But we're just now in a place where I have a lot of hope in our future because we're dealing directly with things, not just wondering or sensing things.

Yesterday she came home and told me OM left a message for her. She deleted it without listening to it. I calmy thanked her for telling me, gave her a quick kiss and went on about my business after discussing the situation for maybe 5 minutes. We went on to have a really nice evening. That's light years (maybe parsecs) from where we were just a month ago. And I now realize I was the one blocking any progress by keeping things inside and not fully expressing what I was thinking or feeling.

On one of your earlier posts, I related something about my sitch, and JL dropped in to tell me I wasn't being honest. I resented his assertion a little at first, because my wife was the one who was hiding things from me, being the dishonest one. But, he was right. I wasn't being honest with myself, my feelings, and, ultimately, with my wife and our M. I was the one who needed to change things so my wife could feel like she could trust me enough to be honest with me. All the while I was distrusting her on one level, she was distrusting me on another. We were both feeling vulnerable and fragile. Really hard to get anywhere that way. (JL, if you read this, thanks for the wake-up call!)

A lot of people say it takes 2 years to recover from an affair. That's 2long for me! Like you, I want it over now. And I think we're a lot closer now that I have removed myself as an impediment - unaware though I was.

Hope you have a great day.