Hey. I just found the lyrics to an obscure favorite song of mine from the 60's. And since this is my thread, I'm going to post it here. 'Cause I can! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

"There'll come a day when you and I are one
A day when we no longer need the sun
Out of time and space we'll be
Aside of all eternity

You'll hear my voice with different ears
You'll live the dreams of timeless years
Your eyes will be the silver stars
That live and shine and see so far

Though thoughts and things have come between
And we exist in different scenes
I'll recognize you on the day
When all the darkness goes away
And we won't count our time by day

So sing your songs of now, my dear
And make your voice so loud and clear
And when the songs change - well, never mind (never mind)
For they were made to stay behind (stay behind)
And we were meant for nevertime
Remember"

-The Association, "Remember"

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />
-Qfwfq

Susan, I'll send you a pix when I get home. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Well, maybe I got my hopes up or something, because I feel like complete s*** right now.

My W said that her bad dreams were because of the SF we had. She says it's always very good, and that *I* have nothing to worry about because she doesn't "compare" me with RM, but she doesn't feel like she "needs" it like I do. It's fleeting, and when it's over she feels bad for having it. When it's over, I feel very close to her, and love to just hold her until she falls asleep. But that she feels the way she does made me feel terrible.

Then she told me about an idea she's got to go back to school for her PhD- in COLORADO or NEW MEXICO. At least she did NOT say back where she got her MS (which I refer to as "the department of adultery") and where she started her A with RM 12 years ago. She also mentioned a friend who's a bit older than her, that started a PhD in Nevada around the time she started her MS. This gal divorced her H and left their grown kids to go to school.

This is right at the root of my biggest fear.
*We've not "processed" her A.
*I'm not supposed to dwell on the contact continuing.
*Her A started when we were both busy in grad school at different places, and she was around RM all day every day and I wasn't around her enough. How's going out of state for a few years going to help our M????
*She says I still "beat up on her" with my bringing up our problems (she didn't say RM specifically, but Ithink that's what she means). But she does say I don't do so as much or as hurtfully as I used to. ???
*She still says she doesn't belive she will ever be able to trust ME. I don't say anything about not being able to trust her, though.

I'm sick and tired of this. I want to quit. I can't get help, the kind of help I really need (meaning, an MC that will talk to both of us with ulove principles. I don't believe that the Harleys would consider espousing unconditional love in our case only. I feel I have good counseling for myself in my ulove group, but my W doesn't have an IC. She did say she forwarded the "co-d" stuff I sent to her to her IC at Kaiser, to ask her opinion of them. I hope that means she's interested in going back.

I did NOT talk about DV, but I did suggest one way of funding her grad school would be for us to sell the house. I don't think she considers us apart, though, because she said "I don't think we could afford anything comparable if we did sell the house."

This morning, she said she would look into taking extension courses locally to see if they might have the kinds of things she's interested in - which RM does at an institution in NM specializing in that subject! This was a little encouraging for me, because I firmly believe that the LA basin is big enough that she could find whatever she wants academically near home, without going out of state.

But it's such a small positive in a sea of negativity.

Help me to not give up. But I really want to.
-Qfwfq

Q-

I've been home with the kiddies this week and have limited inet - I am still following, just not as adamantly.

Sounds like you have reason to want to give up. It's scary facing the unknown. All I can suggest is that you continue to look at things that you've uncovered in the last few weeks and find out what "feels" right and what "feels" wrong. Eventually, you will get to a point where "YOU" will see changes. We already do.

As for the school thing - she is testing the waters. Encourage her to do what she feels is best for her, but remind her that you love her and would be very sad if she went so far away....

Still fog talk on her end....

Hugs...

kily:

I know that that is the right thing to do. And I do it.

I suppose I recognize that it's "testing the waters", too. I just feel like pi$$ing in the pool from time to time, is all. But I don't.

I guess this might be progress. But where to?

Just not very happy right now. In fact, that's the farthest thing from my mind right now.

-Qfwfq

Trust U???? That's WS babble and you know it.

Reverse it Q! Tell her yep you are right, I am not sure when I can trust you!!!

IMHO,
L.

Q-

*We've not "processed" her A.

You have- she wants to pretend that it never happened. Her issue. What is the worst thing that can happen from this?

*I'm not supposed to dwell on the contact continuing.
What are you really dwelling on? It's NOT the continued contact. It is the LACK of RESPECT and CARING that she is showing that hurts you so. You're showing her something that you aren't receiving. WHY?

*Her A started when we were both busy in grad school at different places, and she was around RM all day every day and I wasn't around her enough. How's going out of state for a few years going to help our M????
It's not-She's running away again....

*She says I still "beat up on her" with my bringing up our problems (she didn't say RM specifically, but Ithink that's what she means). But she does say I don't do so as much or as hurtfully as I used to. ???

This is her self defense mechanism kicking in. I felt that way too, for a LONG time. FOG talk, but also the last statement tells me that she is becoming more in tune with the new approach you have towards her. Instead of feeling blamed, she is able to see you with empathy. That tells me that your PLAN-A is working....Nothing to fear here.

*She still says she doesn't belive she will ever be able to trust ME. I don't say anything about not being able to trust her, though.

Think of this as you being the mirror in which she views herself. Often, people will project their inner fears onto the one person that is closest to them. She doesn't TRUST you because she hasn't learned how to TRUST herself - or anyone for that matter. What about you?

Don't give up. Just take a vacation. You have been working SO hard that you just need to relax. Do something for yourself. Stop fearing the loss of you W. She lost that person a LONG time ago. She has to find her again. All you can do is take care of you and figure out what will carry you through this if you're willing to work at it.

The fact that she forwarded the co-dependancy posts to her IC tells me that something hit a nerve, but to admit that to herself is scary. She needs someone professional to tell her in order to allow this in. Again, she has NO trust for anyone or anything....

Imagine how empty and scary that feels...I know, I've been there.

My W said that her bad dreams were because of the SF we had.
I really wonder if she believes this, or if it is a smoke screen so she can keep her distance from you while she sorts out her feelings. See below for more.

She says it's always very good, and that *I* have nothing to worry about because she doesn't "compare" me with RM, but she doesn't feel like she "needs" it like I do. It's fleeting, and when it's over she feels bad for having it.
This would tie in with what my W and I went through for a long time. For us it meant that she felt emotionally distant from me and so SF was a "lie" and she felt bad about it. After I made some big changes ( lost the LB's) she began to come close and now she wants it too. BUT, still not as much as I do. The thing is, it is different for them. We worry if we can perform, if we make them feel good physically, but to them ( at least to my W) knowing we care for them and love them is more important, and is what makes it a good thing. It sounds like your W is much like my W. I have a book I ought to send you. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />
I think she is just now coming out of withdrawal, but I am just a layman.

When it's over, I feel very close to her, and love to just hold her until she falls asleep. But that she feels the way she does made me feel terrible.
Same with me, and how is it that what makes us feel so close to them, makes them feel bad? It's emotional. Read the affection section in HNHN again - in all that spare time you have.

I'm really going to go out on a limb now, and I want you to know this is my opinion only. You have spoken about unconditional love and that you favor that approach. I believe you and DR Harley kinda think the same thing, but you name it differently.
I believe what you call unconditional love he calls respect. No matter what people do, we should respect them, and use no LB's, and no DJ's, and no AO's. I believe that if your W was to start up the A again full force you would love her but not feel you wanted to stay married to her. Correct?
I believe you may then Dv, and find someone else that you would want to be married to. I believe that those feelings that make you want to be married and stay married are what DR Harley is calling romantic love. You would not have those "stay married feelings" for her if the A was going PA again. Really, I think you are on the same page but you use different terms, semantics if you will. Remember that this is just my opinion, but it looks like you are thinking along the same lines as what MB espouses but calling it different things.

I agree with Kily on the rest of it, she seems to have it pegged.

Look for positive things. Negatives come all by them selves, you don't have to look.
Search for positive things, and point them out to her, and dwell on them yourself. If you want to know the truth, I say this as much for me as for you.

SS

kily:

"she wants to pretend that it never happened. Her issue. What is the worst thing that can happen from this?"

I'm not quite sure she wants to pretend it didn't happen. I think she's just starting to fully realize that the friendship and professional collaboration can't continue. But if I'm wrong, ? What is the worst thing? She could still decide that the similarities in research interests and long-term goals are enough to leave her family for RM. But she hasn't, and I guess I don't really believe she will.

*It's NOT the continued contact. It is the LACK of RESPECT and CARING that she is showing that hurts you so. You're showing her something that you aren't receiving. WHY?"

Because it's the right thing to do. It's loving her unconditionally. Doesn't mean that my boundaries will be compromised though.

*She's running away again...."

Or just testing the waters, to see how I'll react.

*FOG talk, but also the last statement tells me that she is becoming more in tune with the new approach you have towards her. Instead of feeling blamed, she is able to see you with empathy. That tells me that your PLAN-A is working....Nothing to fear here."

Thanks. I like to be told that SOMETHING I've tried is producing positive results! ;o)

"Often, people will project their inner fears onto the one person that is closest to them. She doesn't TRUST you because she hasn't learned how to TRUST herself - or anyone for that matter. What about you?"

I think you're right. She also doesn't say ILY because she can't love herself. What about me? Well, if you're asking if I trust myself, I think I do. Not about everything, like being readily able to express my fears rather than hide them.

"Stop fearing the loss of you W. She lost that person a LONG time ago. She has to find her again. All you can do is take care of you and figure out what will carry you through this if you're willing to work at it."

This is true. I can carry through. I'm pretty sure of that. Because each time I've asked myself "How much longer can you go on?" and answered "No longer!", I've always held on longer than I imagined I could. Truth is, as a friend of mine told me recently, this is the hardest part of the process, but it's also the easiest. It's the easiest because if I were to give up and leave, I'd STILL have my problems and family to deal with for the rest of my life. At least now, we are struggling with the hard stuff together, not letting our thoughts fester over what might have been, while we're apart.

"The fact that she forwarded the co-dependancy posts to her IC tells me that something hit a nerve, but to admit that to herself is scary. She needs someone professional to tell her in order to allow this in. Again, she has NO trust for anyone or anything...."

I believe this.

"Imagine how empty and scary that feels...I know, I've been there."

I've seen this emptiness. She's kept things hidden just as much as I have, only she's got this "blatant" infraction to deal with. Mine is much more subtle.

-Qfwfq

SS:

"I really wonder if she believes this, or if it is a smoke screen so she can keep her distance from you while she sorts out her feelings. See below for more."

I'm not sure. I don't think she's that organized right now, at least not re our M.

"For us it meant that she felt emotionally distant from me and so SF was a "lie" and she felt bad about it."

Well put. Same thing here, I believe.

"We worry if we can perform, if we make them feel good physically, but to them ( at least to my W) knowing we care for them and love them is more important, and is what makes it a good thing."

Trouble is that the caring and loving I feel for her that enables me to even think of being physical with her. When you take away the emotional aspects, SF is just... ...well, plumbing!

"It sounds like your W is much like my W. I have a book I ought to send you."

;o)

"I think she is just now coming out of withdrawal, but I am just a layman."

Could this be? I sometimes think she's STARTING withdrawl, but remember, if she's in this stage, it's WITH contact via work continuing. It's got to be hard for her. I think I can sense that something like this is going on, but I'm not always convinced it's not just her working to decide between us, not shoot the elephant (like I wish she would do).

"Same with me, and how is it that what makes us feel so close to them, makes them feel bad? It's emotional. Read the affection section in HNHN again - in all that spare time you have."

I would, if I could find it! We've moved 2 times since I last knew where it was!

"I believe what you call unconditional love he calls respect. No matter what people do, we should respect them, and use no LB's, and no DJ's, and no AO's."

Ah yes. Subtle distinction. Unconditionally loving someone is accepting them for who they are right now. No conditions imposed or implied. Where I think most people get lost is in thinking that accepting their WS as they are implies they must accept their choice to have an A. But truly loving someone unconditionally does NOT mean subjugating your own needs and feelings. You wouldn't be loving yourself to allow such a compromise in your own principles, and you can't love someone else if you don't love yourself. Sounds like "respect" COULD be plunked in in place of "accept" in the above statements.

No, what puts me off about the Harley methods is that they come right out AGAINST unconditional love, calling it a fallacy. Horse puckey. Anything BUT unconditional love is a fallacy.

"I believe that if your W was to start up the A again full force you would love her but not feel you wanted to stay married to her. Correct?"

Correct.

"I believe you may then Dv, and find someone else that you would want to be married to. I believe that those feelings that make you want to be married and stay married are what DR Harley is calling romantic love."

Hm... We might be saying the same things, but I would think that, at this point, my desire to stay M'd is based on empathy and compassion, first and foremost. I'm not sure we have all that much romantic love, or that we can restore it completely, until we re-establish our complete acceptance of each other as loveable individuals. My empathy is enabling me to SEE what it is about ME that made HER feel like seeking another R was her only alternative 12 years ago. Doesn't mean I condone the behavior, but it does mean that I can see more clearly my role in our withdrawl from each other over the years. If I couldn't do that, I don't think I could expect to save our M after a 12-yr A, or that it would be even worth the effort to try to save it.

"You would not have those "stay married feelings" for her if the A was going PA again."

If it were going PA again at this time, I think it would be very hard to even reestablish any connection with one another. Why? Because the A has been exposed to the light of day for over a year now. For it to go PA again, they'd both have to have absolutely no regard for my or OMW's feelings, or our families' feelings. That would be blatant callousness. I don't think my W is that callous. RM might be. I don't know him (nor do I care to know him).

"Really, I think you are on the same page but you use different terms, semantics if you will. Remember that this is just my opinion, but it looks like you are thinking along the same lines as what MB espouses but calling it different things."

I hope so. I sometimes think so. But the website says different. And so I can't go back, at this point anyway.

"Look for positive things. Negatives come all by them selves, you don't have to look."

That's right! I not only don't have to look, I need to be vigilant, lest they overcome me.

"Search for positive things, and point them out to her, and dwell on them yourself. If you want to know the truth, I say this as much for me as for you."

Thanks, SS.
-Qfwfq

I hope so. I sometimes think so. But the website says different. And so I can't go back, at this point anyway.
When MB says that there is no such thing as unconditional love, I believe ( me thinking again) that they are only saying that there are some things that your spouse may do, or perhpas is doing that will mean you no longer want to be married to them. That means that you may want to seek happiness with someone else. Some do it before they are Dv'd ( have an A) some wait and do it after because they see no hope.

BTW, I agree with you, about this, I just adjusted internally and reconciled all of it with my value system so that I could use this MB stuff to help my marriage. I applied what I learned from HNHN and now things are better. W is usually happier, and I seem to be too - most days.

Am I saying this so you can understand?
I hope it makes sense.

I did word part of that other post wrong, I agree with you, she may just now be starting to make progress and so she is starting to think - even if her conclusions are sometimes off a little. (OK, sometimes a lot.)

Don't you wish Pepper would come and straighten us both out?

SS

"Don't you wish Pepper would come and straighten us both out?"

You kidding? She's just as likely to upside my haid with a CHROME 2x4!

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

-Qfwfq

SS:

" That means that you may want to seek happiness with someone else. Some do it before they are Dv'd ( have an A) some wait and do it after because they see no hope. "

I think that it's possible to want to seek happiness elsewhere if you're not getting it within the M, but that's not loving, particularly if it means having an A. I don't believe that it's possible to love someone and lie to them, so having an A is impossible while loving unconditionally.

-Qfwfq

I should add that, after all, if I were to fall in love with someone else while I'm still M'd to my W, I would recognize that it's romantic love, not unconditional love. And if I truly loved that person unconditionally, the last thing I should want to do is let them know of my romantic feelings for them. Because if I were to, I'd be manipulating them to do or feel something toward me, rather than accepting them for who they are. And if who they are is what attracted me to them (meaning someone that I accept for who they are), then making them compromise the principles I envisioned them having (the very thing that would make them attractive to me) would be hurtful.

That's why I believe that it is possible to have opposite-sex friendships, because if all parties espouse unconditional love and radical honesty, then inappropriate relationships would be impossible. There'd be no secrets to build an A upon.

-Qfwfq

so having an A is impossible while loving unconditionally.

I agree.

SS

Hey old pal,

Sorry I haven't responded much, but I still check up on you often.

I am sorry things aren't really moving that much.
I have the feeling that the go back and forth, back and forth.

Maybe it is the stress of the house getting remodeled and all the little things that go bump in the process. Maybe it is just how things are going to be, so you might as well accept it.

You mentioned unconditional love, you love your wife unconditionally, but... unconditional love can be very, very dangerous when it is one sided, and my friend, please don't be mad at me, but it doesn't look like your wife gives a damn about loving you unconditionally.

She says she cannot trust you, why? Because you got hurt when she stabbed you? Because you are trying to live a healthy and good relationship and that includes facing obvious problems and demonds? Alright then...

She is manipulating your feelings in the most terrible ways, she is using SF as a weapon. Why? She can deny it if you make her slightly mad or you bring something up that she doesn't like. If she gives it willingly she can come around the next day saying she doesn't want to give it, and make you feel awful.

SF between people that love each other isn't like that, at all.

Friend, just a word of wisdom. Do not have any kind of SF with somebody that doesn't love you as much as you love them. It just brings more pain.

She may be testing the waters, so let her, but or well she has been doing a lot of testing for many years, or it is just her way of living.

Tell you what, do not engage on SF, unless she ASKS you to, upfront, no hints.

The comment about her friend having her PhD and the fact that she is divorced may not actually be co-related, maybe she just picked her up because academically talking they were standing on the same ground.

If she wants to go away get her PhD, there is nothing you can do about it. Just let her know you'll support her desicion and that you wish she didn't go away because you will miss her, not because you think she will go and betray you again.

My XWH was a very cruel man through his own recovery. He did unthinkable things, very cruel. He has damaged me forever, and sometimes I don't think I will ever be able to love anybody as I used to love him, not even him.

I allowed him to push me, kick me, berate me, punch me, nearly kill me, mentally and phisically. He manipulated, and made a mess out of me. I lost all of my love for him, and I am not sure if I will ever will be able to get it all back.

I should plan B'ed him when I could. But I didn't know of such plan, and I have nobody to help me, so I was left all alone to deal with the monster.

You might have unconditional love, but, sometimes it seems to weaken and sometimes it is her open door to make you feel like cr@p.

I am not saying it doesn't have good moments. But maybe you should weight what you have gotten of the relationship with your wife that has been so great in the years she has been deceiving you and the things she has done good.

I know you cannot implement a plan B, and to be sincere I am not even sure it would help at all, because your wife seems very set up on her ways now. She can pretty much get away with whatever she does to you, because you hold unconditional love for her... and she doesn't.

This are my ignorant conclutions. I am sorry, I just don't like to see you sad or in pain, also she sounds a lot like people I've had the displeasure to know, that manipulate, use and cheat good people and never change, because they believe they deserve to have whatever they want, because life hasn't been fair. But I have got news, life isn't fair to anybody. I have had a ****ty chilhood, a ****ty set of teenage years, but still I stood up and tossed my traumas as far as I could, because keeping them would be letting them win.

I am not saying your wife is an asp like those people, I just say that I would need to hear good things you know about her, that she does constantly and consistently without ever waiting for a reward to make me see the side you love. Could you show it to me?

I am sorry I sounded so harsh, please don't be mad at me <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" />

The CHROME 2X4 is busy .... read my thread on MB's prayer requests forum ~Q~ ...

I can't trust myself to be objective about anyone else's problems for the moment.

Hang in there buddy!

I did see that "CHROME complexion face".

Pepper needs to don that thing and come here and let me take her to New Orleans to Mardi Gras.... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

She needs a break from it all...and she has the perfect "outfit"! Perfect timing!

She could also bare her breast and show them that tattoo.... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> (oh, but she said it was gone now.... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> SUCH a work of art...what a shame. )

<small>[ February 20, 2003, 11:09 AM: Message edited by: Susan ]</small>

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Not only did you make me smile .... you made me LOL!!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Susan, Pepper:

You two crack me up! (I guess that means "LOL"!) <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

-ol' Qfwfq