ALW:
"Sorry I haven't responded much, but I still check up on you often."
Thanks! I've been wondering what's happened to you?
"I am sorry things aren't really moving that much.
I have the feeling that the go back and forth, back and forth."
There is progress, though, when I'm "willing" to recognize it and accept it for what it is at the time.
"Maybe it is the stress of the house getting remodeled and all the little things that go bump in the process. Maybe it is just how things are going to be, so you might as well accept it."
The house is a big factor, there's no doubt about that. As to whether this is the way things are going to be - well, I'm trying to determine whether that's the case. If it is, then I can move on eventually. But I don't think it is.
"You mentioned unconditional love, you love your wife unconditionally, but... unconditional love can be very, very dangerous when it is one sided, and my friend, please don't be mad at me, but it doesn't look like your wife gives a damn about loving you unconditionally."
Doesn't matter. I can love her for who she is for the rest of our lives - whether we're together or not. Whether we ever see each other again or not. I certainly won't compromise my principles long term, but I haven't finished my "growth" or recovery yet, so there's no reason to jump ship at this point. As to whether she loves me unconditionally or not - well, I think she does to the limited extent that she even knows what love is. But more importantly, if I expect her to love me, that's conditional love, not unconditional love.
"She says she cannot trust you, why? Because you got hurt when she stabbed you?"
Not directly, but this can be the way it feels. She can't trust me because she has EXPERIENCE that I can make DJs, LBs, and ultimatums. I haven't much lately, but "lately" isn't that long ago.
"Because you are trying to live a healthy and good relationship and that includes facing obvious problems and demonds? Alright then..."
No. I think she's trying to do this herself. She may or may not be doing so to "my satisfaction" but what right do I have to demand satisfaction from her? My being dissatisfied or sad is a choice that I make based on what I perceive is happening around me. A lot of the time, those perceptions are right, but a lot of the time I KNOW that I blow them way out of proportion.
"She is manipulating your feelings in the most terrible ways, she is using SF as a weapon. Why? She can deny it if you make her slightly mad or you bring something up that she doesn't like."
She actually doesn't do this. Lately, she hasn't held it out for me like a carrot, waiting for me to get interested and yanking it away at the last minute. The last couple of times we've had it were after I had decided to STOP pressuring or even asking her for it. So, the first time she asked ME, and it was very good. The second time, I asked her, and she said she was interested, and it was good. She didn't admit to having bad dreams about it until the following day. I don't think she's using it as a weapon. She's asked me to hold off until she can understand why it feels so fleeting to her or so empty to her. I can do that, because her emotional health is important to me.
"If she gives it willingly she can come around the next day saying she doesn't want to give it, and make you feel awful."
Again, I don't think that is why she doesn't want it lately. Neither do I, under these conditions. I don't "do" her without expressing my love for her. It's just not enjoyable at all.
"SF between people that love each other isn't like that, at all."
agreed
"Friend, just a word of wisdom. Do not have any kind of SF with somebody that doesn't love you as much as you love them. It just brings more pain."
this may be what happens, or it might not. I need her to be able to find out what love means to her, and whether she can feel it for me again or not.
"She may be testing the waters, so let her, but or well she has been doing a lot of testing for many years, or it is just her way of living."
I do prefer the direct approach to interacting within a M. I don't like lies. She doesn't understand the difference between privacy and secrecy yet. She believes she has a right to privacy, but includes being secretive in that definition.
"Tell you what, do not engage on SF, unless she ASKS you to, upfront, no hints."
I don't.
"The comment about her friend having her PhD and the fact that she is divorced may not actually be co-related, maybe she just picked her up because academically talking they were standing on the same ground."
Perhaps. I'm not putting much stock in that part of the conversation.
"If she wants to go away get her PhD, there is nothing you can do about it. Just let her know you'll support her desicion and that you wish she didn't go away because you will miss her, not because you think she will go and betray you again."
Agreed. At this point in time, though, I think it's possible that she could have another A under those circumstances, because she hasn't figured out how to heal from this last one. Sometimes, too, I believe that absence can make the heart grow fonder of the absence. A truly loving commitment between the two of us would need to be restored before we could live apart for extended periods of time and stay M'd. But that whole school issue is in the future. There's a lot of "now" to deal with before wasting energy on what may not happen.
"My XWH was a very cruel man through his own recovery. He did unthinkable things, very cruel. He has damaged me forever, and sometimes I don't think I will ever be able to love anybody as I used to love him, not even him."
Why do you stay?
"I allowed him to push me, kick me, berate me, punch me, nearly kill me, mentally and phisically. He manipulated, and made a mess out of me. I lost all of my love for him, and I am not sure if I will ever will be able to get it all back."
My W has not done these things to me. Why do you stay?
"You might have unconditional love, but, sometimes it seems to weaken and sometimes it is her open door to make you feel like cr@p."
I do have unconditional love. But at the moment, I'm getting it from my ulove group, and so I'm able to give it to my W. I don't think she's currently able to give it to others yet, but the whole purpose of participating in a group is to get it so I can give it so she can eventually feel and give it herself.
"I am not saying it doesn't have good moments. But maybe you should weight what you have gotten of the relationship with your wife that has been so great in the years she has been deceiving you and the things she has done good."
I do. That's why I stay.
"I know you cannot implement a plan B, and to be sincere I am not even sure it would help at all, because your wife seems very set up on her ways now. She can pretty much get away with whatever she does to you, because you hold unconditional love for her... and she doesn't."
Again, I can't love her unconditionally if I can't love and respect myself. I won't compromise my principles to stay M'd to her, but who is responsible for stating and adhering to those principles? Not her. ME. I'm not always doing my best at being radically honest with her about how I feel about what's happened/happening. Until I am, I'm not showing her all the love that I would like her to be able to show me. So I stay, and I keep working on that.
"This are my ignorant conclutions. I am sorry, I just don't like to see you sad or in pain,"
Thank you! Pain pulls a good vaccuum, to be sure!
"also she sounds a lot like people I've had the displeasure to know, that manipulate, use and cheat good people and never change, because they believe they deserve to have whatever they want, because life hasn't been fair. But I have got news, life isn't fair to anybody. I have had a ****ty chilhood, a ****ty set of teenage years, but still I stood up and tossed my traumas as far as I could, because keeping them would be letting them win."
I think my W did the same thing up into her 30s. At some point, she let them win, though. And that's another reason for staying for now: I KNOW what kind of person she can be, because the first 15 years of our M were very rewarding for both of us. I want to give her the opportunity to bring some of that person back to the surface, once she stops beating HERSELF up over what's happened and what she's "done."
"I am not saying your wife is an asp like those people, I just say that I would need to hear good things you know about her, that she does constantly and consistently without ever waiting for a reward to make me see the side you love. Could you show it to me?"
I believe I can. Let me cogitate for a while, and get back to you on that. I'll compile a list of her good qualities (a good exercise for ME to do to shift my focus away from my self pity).
"I am sorry I sounded so harsh, please don't be mad at me "
I couldn't! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />
-ol' Qfwfq
