Good evening everyone. Kids tucked in and sleeping soundly. Thought I’d respond to some questions. I think I got my POV on the general themes in my last post, so I’ll just respond to the specific questions that are not addressed by that.

Cali –
btw... I still want to know why you felt you started your marriage in deceit...
Well, as I have been told and truthfully am starting to see, it doesn’t really matter. However, my resentment did stem from the fact that she said there was no reason to use other protection because she was on birth control and then she consciously made the decision to stop taking them without telling me. I’d kinda say that is deceit.

Just Learning – You are good. You hit on a lot of things that I have felt. One minor correction. You said
You resent the marriage because of the existence of a child. Not good.
Actually, we lost the child due to a miscarriage. I voluntarily had had our two daughters.

As for your questions…you want honest answers right? I think I am getting slammed on the forum more than anything because I am being honest, but Oh well. The honest answer to all but #4 is ‘I don’t know’. #4 is Yes. They will be hurt.

Ayslyne – I don’t know what to say to you. I don’t know if I am done with my marriage, but I do know that I am done reading or responding to anything from you if you keep putting words in my mouth:
You are right about one thing...children do not need people in their lives who consistently try to disassociate themselves with responsibility...
Where did I say that?
Or coming up with conspiracy theories why I am here: Just a question...why come to MB at all? Are you in so deep you actually think you can work to build a relationship with your OW with our help?
Come on! Really, why must you trump up something every time I say something honest? The OW is gone and to tell you the truth that is getting easier day by day. Every post from you has been something along these lines questioning my motivation. I’ve been honest from the start.

Ayslyne it looks from your tag line that you could offer some great advice to me. It seems you marriage started on a rocky road also. It appears that your husband changed along the way. What made him change? It appears that even though he was “exemplary” after the 5th year, you still started to question things because of his past indiscressions. How did you get over it? When you boil it right down, your situation is not all that different than mine (I don’t think because I haven’t read your whole story). Why can’t you share some of your experiences and what helped you get through this rather than a text tirade?

Just for the record... I'm not trying to slam you... maybe PUSH you into some recognition of your behaviors...

My H was much like you. I wore my backpack and his. I became tired, defeated and angry. I spent the 2 years prior to his A MAD AS H*LL... the anger seeped out EVERYWHERE...

Then when he had his A... it was ALL my fault... I was the bitter, angry wife who overate emotionally and was no longer sexually attractive to him. I NEVER listened to him anymore. (and he was right, I'd heard ALL his stories, excuses, ideas... was tired of them). I CONTROLLED him by MAKING ALL the decisions w/out consulting him. (duh, for 12 years he was HAPPY to leave it to me... is it my fault he turned 40, had no career and felt powerless...YEP.)

So what changed? First of all his A kicked ALL THE ANGER OUT OF ME. Poof. I was defeated, literally. I cried for days. My boss put me on a 'watch' where other workers literally walked passed my room to make sure I was okay... when I wasn't, she sent me home.

My H went from having a wife in total control to one who was a puddle of mush... I couldn't make a decision to save my soul.

Then I found MB, went on anti-depressants and read a million books. I was determined to get out of this thing whole. H or no H.

I started to recognize our patterns. I was a co-dependent... totally enmeshed in him and his behaviors. I wore his backpack and anyone else's. He was a passive-aggressive, conflict-avoider... he'd SAY anything to get me off his back... but rarely follow through with action. He NEVER told me what was going on in his head... and would forever accuse me of not listening. He was afraid of what others thought of him... so he does little... he's afraid of both success and failure.

My first step to recovery was three little words. (nope not ILY... in fact I STOPPED saying those words eventually) ... I don't know. Suddenly Miss Know-It-All joined the No-nothing party.

His steps to recovery actually started with his A... making decisions for himself... not that the A was such a GREAT one <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> ... and he continued... he made decision after decision and STUCK to them... even when I didn't like them... (of course, I wasn't VOICING my opinion, either). He found his voice.

There was a lot more along the way, including SPIRITUALITY and becoming right with God... but basically it was my letting go of my co-dependent behaviors and him using his voice.

See... that's what I am talking about... all my EARLY posts were about HIM... what he was doing... what he said... I focused on HIM and he rested the BLAME on me... Me... ME... he would SORTA take responsibility...

for example...
Yes, I did this heinous thing... BUT YOU ... fill-in-the-blank ...

Yes, I married you, BUT I HAD to... you forced me too.

Yes, we had three children, I accomodated your need... I never wanted children.

Hope this makes it clearer why I have been writing so strongly to you...

Cali

{edited to finish as I hit the reply button to quickly <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> }

<small>[ February 11, 2003, 10:05 PM: Message edited by: Cali ]</small>

Can'tThink,

You are right about that one statement, how could I argue, I just didn't know how to phrase it. My point was that it was the presence of a child that precipated this, the fact that the childs life ended in a miscarriage is very sad, but it started you down the road.

Now let's talk about something else. Let's talk about your W's efforts. Do you see any? Does she think she is making any? If so what are they?

Is she very focused on the children? Do you two think that you could use the POJA with each other? Do you think either of you have or use the Harleys four rules for a good marriage? Please look them up.

I am asking these things for a reason (Duh <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> ). I think that your W needs to change a few things in how she treats you. I don't know what they are, but I do think that absent addictions of one sort or another needs not being met is big in a marriage.

I also came to learn from personal experience that people show love in different ways and often in the way THEY would like to have it shown to them. That can drive you around the bend. I also believe that love can be built up and developed. So even if your marriage didn't start as well as it could, it could be made to be better.

Tell me do you like your W when she smiles or laughs? Do you enjoy it when your kids are happy?

These are the things you need to start thinking about before you move on with your life and break up your family.

I think if you talk to your W with "radical honesty" but no LB's you might learn somethings that will surprise you. You may be right that she really doesn't love you, but you are sort of a habit she would like to continue, or maybe you think she just likes your paycheck. I thought that of my W. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

Time to gather more data Can'tThink. Do some more talking here. Yup, sometimes honesty gets you in hot water, BUT this may be of help to you. You see there are many ways to state things honestly, some send people for their guns, some anger them, some annoy them but they realize what they are hearing.

Yet, another thing to ponder.

So keep posting. Keep asking questions, and maybe we will be able to come up with some answers that are useful.

God Bless,

JL

Can't Think

Maybe you are starting to think. Time will tell. But you do have a lot of it to do. And a lot of work ahead of you.

As for showing this to your W, presuming your motives are on the side of facilitating good communication, I think it is a good idea. I said in one of my posts that you remind me a bit of me. Well, you communication skills are reminding me again. You are a passive communicator. I was also. Notice I said WAS. I, like Cali's H, have found my voice. It doesn't always work automatically but I keep practicing at it. And that is what you will have to do. In the beginning, sharing posts from here and talking about them were one thing my H and I did a lot. It helped.

I am going to presume that your wife is reading this.....Log on to this site and post! We want to hear your side of things. The more information we have the better advise we can give.

It take two to make a marriage break....and it takes two to make it work. You both have a lot of work to do!

Regretting

I do not want to high jack this post but I do have to ask ayslyne a question. I do not know anything about your story other than what is in your tag line but why are you so angry?

I know you say because of the kids. And I do agree with you that none of this is fair or good for them in any way. However, shouting at and degrading people are not going to make them listen. You may not have intended it that way but the way I am reading your posts, some of them have sounded very degrading to me.

You sound as if you have a lot of good things to say that may help Can't Think. But the more you shout the less he will listen.

Please understand that I am just trying to understand for myself. This is not meant to be an attack on you.

Regretting

Hi All...I'm the wife of Can't think of a name. He did share with me...which I am happy for. I want to be someone he can come to and share with, regardless of whether or not it will hurt me. I want to know his true feelings.

I can't write much now...but wanted to ask you to watch for a big post from me, maybe tonight after my H and I talk, I'll have time.

But for now...know that I love him and am patient for him and WANT our marriage to work and am willing to do whatever it takes...if that means give him time to think...that's what I'm doing.

I appreciate all of your thoughts and words..but a hard lesson I've had to learn and maybe some of you will listen too is that there is a huge difference between being agressive and assertive!

I am looking forward to sharing with you my thoughts and feelings!

JL - Regarding my wife's efforts. Yes, I have seen a change in her since we seperated last summer. She was always very needy before and I have noticed her becoming much more independent and caring than before. She also did go back to work full time. We have tried using the POJA, but need much more practice at that. Yes, there are still some things she could change, and probably many more that I can change which I am trying to do.

You are also very correct about people showing love in differnt ways and wanting it shown to them in different ways. This is a major stumbling block as I am not naturally a very affectionate person (as I'm sure you all can tell)

Along those same lines, we simply have nothing in common save the kids. We have a different set of morals and values, we have very few common recreational activities that we enjoy, etc. We have tried to work on these things also with minor successes here and there.

I am also going to talk to a good friend of W's on Thus who last year was in the same mindset as I am not regarding her H. She is excited about sharing her experience with me.

Regretting - Thanks for the encouragement. I was going to mention that W is computerless at the moment (though I have offered to buy her one or let her have ours), but it looks like she has found a way to post from work occassionally.

Fonzee - Look forward to talking with you tonight.

To address so many issues. Disregard for the well-being of children to take "me time" should outrage any thoughtful person.

For the record I was not quoting you...I was referring to your nonsensical argument that children can benefit from divorce. No words were put into your mouth. You offered what you considered to be benefits to your children if you were to divorce. I just simply added the most important factor. If your "me time" attitude does end your marriage your children deserve a better role model. For once I was agreeing with you that a divorce could benefit your children. (Only if that remains your attitude)

From where does my anger stem...from the fact that so many people actually have to stop and think when it comes to the best interest of their children.

My bio line reads like a Jerry Springer show I know that. But ofcourse there is more to the story. My husband has a child with a ONS. This is one of the most devestating things to live with. His actions and that of this person robbed me of being the mother of my husband's first born child. Their "me time" resulted in the birth of an innocent child. Now so many people would think first reaction would be right them all off. Not me. And not for him. For that child I decided to work on the marriage. He was too irresponsible to handle it...the woman needless to say was never going to be mother of the year material. I insisted on his involvement...providing for the child in every financial, emotional, spiritual way we could. I also encouraged the mother to do what she could to better herself for the child's sake.(Yes you heard me right...the woman who bedded my husband...stalked and harrassed me...I kindly took under my wing and said look you have to take care of yourself and this baby) To this day the child has had the best of everything...has a relationship with her father...and is completely unaware of the hostility that I will always harbor for her mother. I will never tell her the circumstance of her birth. I will never make her feel like she is anything but loved. I praise her and I am kind to her mother...like two old friends...because to degrade the mother is to damage the child. I will never damage that child.
I know for a fact if I would have left my husband he would have abandoned that child...the mother would have continued on her self-destructive lifestyle. It makes my skin crawl to be in constant contact with a woman whose name my husband couldnt even remember...to hear her voice on the answering machine...to play nice with her for the rest of my life when deep down I would love to release my pain on her. I pay a huge price...for the sake of a child who is no relation to me...why? Because she is innocent...she didnt ask to be born under these circumstances. She just wants people around her who love her.
I was innocent in my husband's ONS but how could I victimize someone who was even more innocent than I was. Why should she have to suffer because of what her parents did? It is obvious that she shouldnt. I realized this child was a gift to me. A chance to learn humility and sacrafice for the good of another. I could easily look at her and see her mother's face...remember what her mother/father did to me but I don't. I see yet another person to love and share with. She is talented, beautiful and full of hope.

Many people ask me...why do I do it? Why do I include her? No one would blame me if I didnt want to see her. You know why I do it? For one reason...because it is the RIGHT THING TO DO. Regardless if there is an easier way out for me. The easy less painful way is not the right way.

Why should your kids have to suffer? They dont care why you got married. They are at your mercy. So innocent...only wanting love.

I care about children...all children. When someone says they need time for themselves I am angered. When it comes to children putting there welfare first is the obligation of us all. When the children are your own it should be a reflex...no question...no "me time"...the children are an extension of you...harming them is harming yourself.

To respond to whomever suggested I degrade anyone, I beg to differ. I do not sugar coat the reality of the effects of people's actions on other people...especially if those people are children. If you had no children my responses would be very different. Now if it were just you and your wife I wouldnt be exactly cheering your behavior but at least you would be on level footing. Everything I write is true and valid. It is not my behavior that degrades anyone...if the image in the mirror is too horrific look away.

I have tons of great advice. This event is a merely a microcosm of my life experience. And I admit I am extremely venomous when children are involved. If I at 20 could put my own dreams aside for the sake of an innocent child born of an event which represents complete betrayl how can anyone foresake their own children for "me time"? And if your children are tense because of the state of your marriage, ofcourse you need to work on it...not end it. If they cannot count on their father to put them first...who can they count on?

I have said before I will not offer praise to someone merely because they are "honest"...honesty is relative to a personal view point. I do not agree with your view point...hence my "opposing feed back".

There are many people with whom I converse here at MB. Both BS and WS. I am the same to all. I say what I see.

I question your motivations because you have not susinctly stated your reasons for being here. Believe me it is not a question I am up nights about. But I do not understand the difficulty in answering the question yes or no...are you here to heal your marriage?

I make no apologies. I want to see no one go through what I went through. I want to see no one go through with what my husband goes through...the guilt and regret at putting himself first...for "me time."

I am harsh...you do anger me. But you must recognize I know of what I speak...maybe you respond to different motivational stimuli...fine. There are people here who will be able to help you in that way. Maybe it is good for you to realize that you do not respond well when faced with worst case scenario feedback. It is not my goal to have you respond to me...or to anger you into action. I state what I feel the way I feel it. My hope is that you will understand the gravity of your actions as they will affect everyone around you.

Do what you will. I hope MB is helping you on a path of healing.

I remind you also that you did ask for opposition...you asked for it you got it.

I am your antithesis.

ayslyne

Hi all..I'm going to try not to make this huge.
Wife's story:

We met at a party, again a year later at a bar and started dating from there. A few mos. later he broke up w/me, telling me we could still be friends. I didn't/don't agree with that, therefore I left him alone. To my surprise, he called me about 6 weeks later. We started dating again. Yes, our dates consisted of bars, alcohol & sex. I did think it was a little more than casual dating & until I read his post, did not realize that during that time he was pursing others.

I got pregnant & moved in. When we told his parents he said that we love each other & both want to make this work. (We had never said ILY to each other yet.) I miscarried less than 3 weeks into our living together. He was so there for me. On a drunken night a few weeks later, I got all emotional & told him there was no reason he had to stay with me now. He told me he was going nowhere.

He came from an unaffectionate family home, I came from one that says ILY and hugs & kisses goodbye. He had no trouble showing me affection or making me feel loved or saying it. There have been many time periods in our marriage that I have felt he loved me more than I loved him.

My father died almost 4 years ago. Again my H was so there for me. I didn't handle like I should have, H knew that. I was the strong one, knew he was at peace now, etc. Never really mourned or let it all out. (Maybe that's one of my issues in todays life.) I did take a bigger interest in Christ at that time, even became a Christian, prayed for salvation, but didn't do anything w/it other than go to Church w/our Ds.

I did take a personal inventory of my life and felt it was time to confess to my H about 1st PG. He took it amazingly well, said it wouldn't change anything. I worried about him, worried that he was letting it eat away at him. But didn't notice a huge change in our M right away.

OW was someone he worked w/shortly after our 1st D was born. I knew her, a little jealous at first at how much she joked w/H, hit him, touched him a lot in a joking way. Once I even asked H if something was going on. He laughed & said she's cool & would be the perfect friend if she was a guy. Never someone he would want to be married to. I got to know her and her H thru work events. I liked her, trusted her, respected her. She once told me that my H was the little brother she never had. I was comfortable w/her. Even thought she could bring wisdom to our M, you know I thought if my H went to her and said something like"My W thinks I spend too much $ on beer", she'd say "Well, yeah you do...so what?" I thought she would look at both sides, someone a little older, more experienced w/M and problems.

I started talking about quitting my day job to be a full time mom when our 2nd D was about 8 mos old.We talked about it for about a mo & I knew he wasn't 100% behind it, but said I could try it. I did take a night job 3 nights/wk. Then started daycare w/2 girls plus our own 2. Then I took on a parttime day job for the company I worked for, for 10 years, no more than 20 hours a week. So then I quit the night job. I had the same 2 daycare daughters the whole 2 1/2 years I did daycare. I kept the same part time day job until I returned back full time in Dec 2002, for the same company. Do I regret quitting w/o H being 100% behind me...Yes, I do. I realize that was wrong & I made the decision on my own. I've told him such & I don't want to make a mistake like that again. I realize now what a huge weight that put on him. Did I complain about any or all of my jobs...yes I did, some good days some bad, just like any job.

My H began having anxiety problems a couple of years ago. If I had to pin point a time, probably very soon after I told him about 1st PG. I worried, ask to help, then quit asking, didn't want to seem controlling. I thought I could help by trying not to complain so much about stuff, my work, money, the house, whatever. I wore myself out and didn't make him feel any better.

We had problems, I suggested MC, but I didn't think our problems were too big to handle. I never thought he'd leave me. He agreed, we went once, were told we had a communication problem. Went back next time to say H was leaving me and that he and OW had admitted feelings for each other, then he moved out.

During our 4 mo. separation over the summer, I started reading everything I could, including the Bible. I realized what I had and didn't want to loose it...him. Pretty much everything I read told me I needed to take a look at myself & realize that b/4 I could expect anyone to want to change, I needed to change myself. I became a better person that summer, I feel closer to God, I rely on Him for everything, He's the only one that will never let me down. Because of Him, I feel like a better wife, a better mom, a better friend, I prayed for God to restore my love for my H & to guide me, give me strength & encouragement to keep trying, fighting for our M. He has done all of that and much more. He filled me w/so much unconditional love for my H, I can give & expect nothing in return. He will never give up on me, my H or our M and He doesn't want me too either. I have tried to show & tell my husband of my love for him & that it grows everyday. H asked me once if I was trying so hard because I wanted to or because that's what I thought God wanted me to do? I said both-God has given me the heart to love my H, unconditionally.

We did have lots of contact during our separation. H lived w/his parents, I stayed at home. He payed the bills, I used my parttime money to buy groceries, gas, kids stuff, etc. Which I think he resents or at least use to. I tried to tell him how much I had changed, and how much I loved him & was patient for him to sort through his feelings. I asked him out on a date & at the end of the night he said he was coming to tell me he wanted a D but couldn't, there was still something there. We dated another mo-still I didn't ask him to end friendship w/OW, I didn't need anything else for him to resent me for. I wanted it to be his decision. We did this for a mo. then H said he still didn't feel for me what a H should feel for his W.

Then I suggested a seminar, I told him I thought OW fogged his thoughts, we'd go out and get so close, then he'd see her or talk to her and he'd pull away again. I told him maybe he should put her on hold-if it was meant to be, she'd still be there in 6 mos.

We went to MB, he ended friendship & moved home. Later I found out she'd called him a few times when she was distraught over her life or emailed him concerning a mutual friend or called late at night at his work but left no message. Again I trusted both of them to end communication. We did lessons, spent 15 hours together, I tried to learn golf, we went to several football games, which I enjoyed both. I like just about anything. We did feel our communication was improving.

Then Nov. came, he told me no more trying ,he's worn out can't do it anymore. Did I threaten him? I can understand why he felt that way. I told him things would be different than the last no-no more calling every night. I told him I'd have a hard time putting our Ds lives on a piece of paper, I would have a hard time sharing them since it wasn't my choice to become a half time mom. And if they got older & didn't want to go w/dad, I wouldn't make them. He said he wouldn't fight over stuff like that. I also found out of his phone calls to OW who now had a boyfriend & didn't have time for him anymore.

We decided to quit the lessons, but to tough it out through the holidays for the kids sake. We also chose to keep meeting each others ENs. I went back to work full time. H & I have fun together, we talk a lot, we don't fight, argue but don't fight, we have great sex, he says I'm more beautiful than the day he married me. He knows I'm a better person too. I think he's lost right now. I still choose to love him. I will not regret our separation, even if he divorces me. I honestly want our M to work-that's it I WANT it to. & I'm willing to do whatever it takes to make it work.

Why? Because I love him and he's worth the wait. I want a strong loving marriage with him.

Right now, I live in an apt. We share our girls, 7 & 4 3/4. I miss him and miss being with him and our Ds everyday.

As for the kids, they are good pretty much all of the time. I have always thought that. Did I argue w/them yes, but my change in attitude & life helped w/that and it's been much better the last 10 mos.

As for my H, I have seen a huge changes in him. mostly since mid-Jan. when he was desperately trying to make contact w/OW to talk about our upcoming separation. She told him then, no more, she wouldn't respond to him ever again. She learned how dangerous it is to have a friend of the opposite sex and she wants to focus on new boyfriend (my opinion). It did not end by my H choice but it's over. H decided then he wants to work on becoming a better person. We haven't been to MB site since Nov. He started surfing & has learned a lot from posts & articles he's found. He is reading books, he's talking to others, he's searching for help-what more can I ask for right now? I pray he'll become a better person and still want to share his life with me.

I believe everything happens for a reason. I think we'd be in this situation regardless of the 1st PG or OW. We are learning something from all of this. H asked me once if I would do the PG thing over again. I guess the best answer I can give is -If I knew then what I know now (as far as everything happens for a reason) then No I wouldn't because I believe we would have ended up married anyway, I just took it upon myself to speed up the process. If we were in the same situation as were were, then Yes I would-it brought us together , it was wrong, but my life has been bless w/my H for 12 years (9 1/2 married) & 2 of Gods most precious creations, our Ds!

I believe the 1st separation was for me, I became a much better person because of it. I realized what I had to loose & I now want to show my husband what he means to me. H comes first in my life now.

I believe this separation is for him. He needs time to think & decide if he has something worth keeping. Only time will tell, I'll keep praying for Gods will to be done in our lives and M-that's all I've got right now.

Quote I ran across today:Come grow old with me, the best is yet to come-Robert Browning.

The quote you selected by Browning was in response to the famous: Eat,drink and be merry for tomorrow...

He felt that live had more to offer than just a "good time" and nothing more. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Can'tThink, after reading your W's post, I think there is something to work with here. I know you don't feel it, but again I ask you. If you could be happy in the marriage would you stay?

If so, then I think you two could reach a state that you both truely enjoy the marriage. It will take some guts on your part. It will take a pretty big risk on your part. But, you also risk losing an opportunity to have what you want AND keep your children in a fullup family.

Life is full of risk and choices. I know which way I would do this,but the choice is yours to consider. Frankly, if you do choose to work on this,my first recommendation is not to WORK on it. WORK is a four letter word you know. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> My recommendation would be decide to enjoy your life. Decide to see if you can enjoy being with your W. It may take doing things on a selective basis, but talk about it.

If things don't work, you haven't thrown away the opportunity to end the marriage. You BOTH have that in your back pocket.

Choices, choices, what a pain. Right? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Keep thinking, even if you can't come with a name. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

God Bless,

JL

She's hard to argue with isn't she?

We had a great talk tonight and I think we have got down to the root of the problem...though it seems to be a pretty big one.

She thinks that everything happens for a reason (ie - God). I think that everything happens beause of your choices in life (ie - 1st PG, my EA)

I'm not exactly sure how to get over this hump, but I have a plan of action. A) Talk to her (religious) friend who has gone through similar problems tomorrow B) EMail Dr Harley C) Set up individual counciling next week.

I'm not sure what to do from there. We talk all the time so I don't think that will be an issue and are dating, so we should be OK there. I guess I'll just see what I get from my action plans.

Regarding this site: You have helped me tremendously!!! I really do thank you!!! However, it is a bit uncomfortable now that W is posting here too. At the moment, she is more your POV and I will be signing off for a while and let her post and get advice while I search for myself. I will find my advice elsewhere. Thank you very much!!!

Jeff

JL - you are great, my man! We passed in posting. I will keep thinking. I promise you even if I do not keep posting here. And once we are better some day we will come back and thank you!

CanThinkofAName,
Jeff

Jeff,

Keep posting here. Are you afraid that your honest and deepest thoughts shouldn't be read by her? I think they should be. I know you are a bit uncomfortable with her here, but that is the point. This takes practice. SHE will learn a lot from you. Please let her learn.

AS for the big difference in philosophy: </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> She thinks that everything happens for a reason (ie - God). I think that everything happens beause of your choices in life (ie - 1st PG, my EA) </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Now we can have some fun discussing this. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> Seriously, you cannot leave now. I think you are both right. HOw is that for diplomatic?

Things happen in life. Some of them are random, some are because of choices made without knowledge of unforeseen consequences. Some choices have predictable outcomes and affects (this site is a case in point if you read here for awhile.) There are patterns.

But, the key in my mind is that we learn from our choices, we try to do better, we learn from the random happenings in our life. How is that in conflict with "everything happens for a reason?" I don't think so. In fact, we try to "reason" with every event in our lives. Or at least most of us do. Some people don't and they often just make the same mistakes.

Does this negate the existence of God? I for one don't think so. Our job here is to learn, to improve. But, I am fairly sure that if God reasons, we couldn't hope to understand it. We see just small glimpses of things.

So OK, Jeff let's hear your take on this? I really don't see you two that far apart. It is more symantics it seems. Or perhaps it is a which came first arguement.

This could be fun. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

My point? I have several here. One, I do find peoples thoughts on this topic facinating. Two, if you do as well, then how is this a sticking point in your marriage? You two don't have to agree, but it helps if you both recognize the other's point of view and just enjoy the mental simulation of discussing it.

In all of my years I have never seen anyone WIN a discussion or an arguement on topics such as these. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Must go, but keep posting Jeff. I am looking forward to talking to both of you two.

God Bless,

JL

<small>[ February 12, 2003, 11:19 PM: Message edited by: Just Learning ]</small>

Fonzee and Can't Think

From what I have read here today, you two don't really seem that far apart. There is great possiblities here. A few suggestion, if I may...

1) Both continue to post here. I know it can feel ackward at times but it can also help. Take it from someone who knows. My H and I both posted here for a while. It provides great insight sometimes.

2) When you go on dates, take turns deciding what to do. That way you both experience things the other likes to do. You may be surprised just how much you do have in common.

3) Spend family time together with the girls. Take time to stop trying to work on your M. Things have a tendancy to be more natural when the kids are involved in the activity.

4) One of you mentioned that your POJA needed some work. Start using it on the little decisions, like where to have dinner, for example. These little decisions are good practice for the bigger ones.

As for the discussion of God vs. us and why things happen....(edit)

Well, I had written this whole thing....5 or 6 paragraphs. When I re-read it all, I realized that I had come full circle in my argument and had totally confused myself. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" /> I didn't want to waste any of your time. I need to think on that one and get back to you.

In the meantime, I encourage you both to continue to post here. We always want to hear both sides and perspectives of the story.

Regretting

JL & Regretting - thanks for your posts.

We are taking turns picking what to do on our dates and so far it is working well (though I need an idea as my turn is coming up!). We are also setting aside family time with the kids. Yes, the POJA needs some work and I will be reading up on that and talking to Dr Harley about how to use that when you have fundamental differences in philosophy.

As far as both continuing to post, I'm not sure that is a good idea. You see, we have had problems in the past communicating via EMail. I tend to come across way too blunt which is probably why I got the reaction I did here. I have also seen a few threads out here spiral out of control when both spouses start posting. Lastly, she showed me her post last night before she posted it and I disagreed with a few things. We only got to discuss the first one before it turned into an arguement, so I just told her to post it...it was her interpretation and not mine. I had no right to question it. It's just that I know myself well enough to know that I have a hard time doing that. As you can see to my reaction to the first posts in this thread that I tend to play devil's advocate and come back and give my POV on every detail that I don't agree with. If I do that to her, I have a feeling it could lead to some real hard feelings. It's better that we discuss those things in private I belive.

But, then again, never say never...so I may very well be back.

Can't Think and Fonzee

Just to clear something up....I hope you read this....

When I said that both of you continue to post, I didn't necessarily mean on the same thread. I meant each of you should post your own threads to discuss you own concerns, theories, ideas, etc... And if the other happens to check in on that thread then so be it. You don't have to respond on that thread unless you want to and you know the orginal poster will be ok with it.

Each of you can get a lot out of this forum if you put something into it. I do think it is a good idea for each of you to keep posting.

I'll be looking for you. Hope I see your names soon.

Regretting

Can'tThink & Fonzee,

You post just touched on something that took me a long time to fully understand: the concept of "disrespectful judgments". I would strongly encourage you two to read up on them in the articles here.

The irony of the term of "disrespectful Judgements" is that the person making them IS NOT trying to be disrespectful, but they are trying to make judgements based on how they FEEL the other person is thinking. Not a good idea for either of you.

Another concept that is hard to deal with but easy to say and understand is that a married couple will NOT see things the same way. The Men are from Mars Woman from Venus thing. Hence Harley's approach to assess each other's needs directly via a questionaire. This isn't bad that you don't see things the same way, but it needs to be recognized and factored into your behavior toward each other and cutting the other person some slack. They rarely intend to be mean or disrespectful. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

The Regretting's suggestion that you have separate threads is a good one. We have had couples here that share the same thread, have separate threads but occasionally read or post to the other thread, and some where they have agreed to not read nor post on each other's thread. You two can set your own ground rules.

The point is that some (myself included) feel that when you are both posting you begin to gradually see where the other is coming from. That can be an eye opening experience, especially when you see how other's respond to the posts.

Can'tThink as for you being blunt. I personally feel that is good. I like blunt. But, I am a guy. One of the things you will learn here is "girl speak" and it really is different from "guy speak". That alone has been an huge learning experience for me.

I have been here 4 years and I continually learn new and interesting things here from everyone else. It just amazes me, how dumb I really am. THat is why I am Just Learning. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Must go. Do think about this.

God Bless,

JL

JL-
I first of all want to thank you greatly for finding our post and posting your thoughts. I believe you have given us both much to think about and discuss.

I like what you said, for Jeff to continue to post and let me learn from him!

We talked some about how you agree with both of us, everything happens for a reason and because of our choices. I think we both are trying to use MB as an example of this...MB was not my first choice for a marriage seminar but I wanted my H to have a big part of that decision...he choose MB...(choice)and now I'm realizing the reason for this choice...this posting board. It has helped us both think a lot about what we are doing, what we are feeling (everything happens for a reason). I'm not sure we agree totally...but it's certainly an example for us to use.

However, even if we can come to the point of agreeing to disagree with that and just respect each others opinions and have some good conversation about the topic and learn from each other, etc...we still have to figure out how my H can get those feelings of love for me.

Please send us your thoughts on using MB as an example of everything happens for a reason and because of our choices.

I don't have much time this morning to post so I am hurried and may not be doing a good job of getting my feelings across. I will try to find a way to post somewhere other than from work.

Thanks again for everyones thoughts and words!

Fonzee and Jeff,

Could each of you explain to me why this topic is sooo important to you. </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Please send us your thoughts on using MB as an example of everything happens for a reason and because of our choices.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I will answer your questions with some thoughts of my own. I feel that people are given free will, it is up to us to use that free will correctly or more specifically to learn from our mistakes. So our choices generally reflect our level of development and knowledge. The results of those choices allow us another choice: either learn from our last experience or repeat the mistakes we made.

Now if you are a deeply religious person you might say, well God will provide and take care. That is very likely true, but what is not promised in the Christian religion is that this will happen in our time here. Nor is it said that there won't be consequences of our poor decisions and failure to learn.

Do you see a huge difference? I don't. I think that we are offered these free choices by God, because it is our job to learn and become better. After all if your belief system is that God created all then we could have been created without faults, but we clearly weren't. Why? I guess I really cannot say why.

Being a scientist I seem to see religion differently from some people, but I never the less see the power of it, and readily realize that the deeper our knowledge extends the more beautiful and amazing the universe seems to become. I do believe there is a God.

I do think however, that you two may be missing something. I am not sure how to put my finger on it as to what it is. But, Fonzee, if you love your H then show him. Meet his needs, do your best at this relationship.

Jeff, your job is to open yourself up to the possibility that you can love Fonzee. It may not be the love of your youth, but a love developed NOW. A more mature love and respect for one another. It may not work, but you need to allow the chance for it to work.

I think you need to see each other far differently than you do. I think you need to realize that you both are probably very good people, inspite of being human. It is to me the highest achievement. Not that one is perfect but to realize how well they did with their live inspite not being perfect. Inspite of the mistakes, inspite of the failures. THat is the gift.

You will realize as you approach my age that loving and having someone love you is more important than appearance, past pains, etc. You will learn that the simple things are the really important things.

So my recommendation is to try what Harley has laid out. It is simple. It is a cause and effect approach, but its foundation is sound.

Keep reading and posting. I think as you two post and read here, that you will begin to see things differently. Life is too short to hang on to pain. It is too short to hold grudges. ANd it is definitely too short to not learn from the choices we have made.

I know there is much more to say, but frankly I am not sure where you all are with regard to this. I need to hear more from both of you. I hope I do.

God Bless,

JL

Why is this so important?

This is Wifes opinion:
I think H feels that I pre-determined his life, by my choice to become pregnant w/o his knowledge. Had I not done that H is thinks that we may not have been together today.

He's wondering what path he would have chosen if my choice wouldn't have forced him into deciding to "do the right thing" and staying with me for the sake of the unborn child.

He says by me telling him about that whole thing, he now understands why he's feeling the way he is and not having those feelings of love the way a H should for his W.

I feel that whether or not I had made that choice we would still be together today, right here, right now, in our seperation because he's questioning his life. If it wasn't the 1st PG thing, it'd be something else.

He says he doesn't know if he loves me, if he ever has, or if he ever can or if he wants to.

That's what I feel our biggest problem is-He needs to take this time to decide if he WANTS to love me, if he wants to make our marriage work, if he has something worth keeping and fighting for.

He knows how I feel but I try to continue to tell him and I try to continue to show him and I try to continue to meet his ENs, kind of hard now that we're not living together.

I love him and I want him-I have been through the questioning of my life and whether or not we'd be together if it weren't for that 1st PG. I questioned myself as to whether or not I loved him.

I turned to a dear friend who encouraged me to love him, stay with him, care for him, give to him, pray and work and pray and work some more. And I fell in love with my H and I love him more every day.

I know he wants to respond too..I hope he does. He mentioned to me he wanted to talk to me first. I asked about me posting this, he doesn't know what I'm going to say until he reads this. He's interested to see what I think he's thinking. I also fear that he doesn't want to post feeling he'll be bashed again for the way he's feeling.

I pray that if he doesn't post here then he finds someone to talk to that can help him with his feelings.

JL- You're great...I am curious though, Have you had marriage troubles before, have you ever felt lost or out of love? Has your wife? Are you still married w or w/o kids? What is your definition of love?

Thanks!! Fonzee