On a practical level, W is correct for the most part, that is why it is important to me. Though it goes beyond the first PG to other things, such as quitting work full-time, quitting part time jobs, going to parties (home interior, creative memories type stuff, not real PARTIES) or church groups several nights a week, etc. Whether I'm right or wrong, I feel like I was taken advantage of for too many years.

It's probably easier to explain on a philosophical level. I see the "everything happens for a reason" philosophy as a way to get what she wants without taking responsibility. You see, she has never said she is sorry for the 1st PG. It's ok in her mind because we "would have ended up here anyway."

We talked tonight and I told her what I was going to post. She did say she was sorry for doing it, but still says we would have been here anyway.

Also, about the posting thing...taking Regrettings advice, we decided that we will discontinue this thread and start our own. I will continue posting as I feel I need to and she as well, but we will do it on separate threads.

Hi You Two,

I have been out of town most of the week and have someone coming to my office in just a few moments. Thanks for your replies. I think I can respond a bit more intelligently now.

Either of you getting near 40? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

This discussion is sort of sounding like it.

I am not sure either of you are going to like all of my responses, but I think perhaps a dialogue actually it would be TRIalogue wouldn't can be started.

Must go. I will be back today or this weekend.

God Bless,

JL

Fonzee and Jeff,

I am going to respond to both of your posts at once if you don’t mind. Some of my answers are going to be really short, but I hope to explain more as I go.

Fonzee

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This is Wifes opinion:
I think H feels that I pre-determined his life, by my choice to become pregnant w/o his knowledge. Had I not done that H is thinks that we may not have been together today.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">He is right, IF the only criterion to marrying you was the pregnancy. Sadly, the pregnancy didn’t end well so the gift of this decision was not what it could have been. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

On the other hand, I doubt it was the only reason as the pregnancy had ended and you did give him a choice.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">He's wondering what path he would have chosen if my choice wouldn't have forced him into deciding to "do the right thing" and staying with me for the sake of the unborn child.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">He will never know, any more than I will know if I had married my first love, or if a particular lady had ended up pregnant when I was very young. Your choice DID force him to make a decision. He decided to make the “right decision” how can he regret making the “right decision”. If I recall correctly he had a chance to back out of this decision. But be that as it may, yup, events at that time shaped the later events of his life. He can conjure all he wants but it doesn’t change a thing nor could it.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">He says by me telling him about that whole thing, he now understands why he's feeling the way he is and not having those feelings of love the way a H should for his W.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">My guess??? Wrong answer. He feels about you the way he does, because of how you have chosen to treat him during the marriage. He feels this way because of his choices (an A, etc) he has made, including choosing to not be “radically honest with you” when you were letting him down. This is an attitude issue. I work with and know a fair number of couples from India. Many of their marriages are arranged, yet they seem as happy and in love as anyone born here in US. How can this be? I think it is attitude, respect for each other, a knowledge of their expectations of marriage, and a willingness to make this situation as good as it can be.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I feel that whether or not I had made that choice we would still be together today, right here, right now, in our seperation because he's questioning his life. If it wasn't the 1st PG thing, it'd be something else.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I am not sure I would agree with you on this one. In fact upon further review, I think he may be right. If you hadn’t become pregnant, would he have talked with you at length about you, what you expected out of life. Would either of you viewed each other in the depth you no doubt did, when facing the issue of marriage? I am not sure.

I will tell you that I met my W on a blind date. The date went so well <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> that we didn’t see each other for a year, neither was impressed with the other. Yet, a year later we met up, and started dating. Eventually, we fell in love and married (~27 years ago).

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">He says he doesn't know if he loves me, if he ever has, or if he ever can or if he wants to.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Affairs will do that to ones perspective of history. I think virtually every person who strayed and has come here had those thoughts and voiced them. It is very common. Will those feelings be there in a month, two?? I don’t know. What I do know is that you two are married, and CAN build a marriage were love is there and so is the fun. It is a choice. It is NOT predestined.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">That's what I feel our biggest problem is-He needs to take this time to decide if he WANTS to love me, if he wants to make our marriage work, if he has something worth keeping and fighting for.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yes, he does. But, so do you. You two need to sit down and negotiate. Not argue about feelings, but say if you feel this way, how would you feel if I tried this? Talk to each other, act loving towards each other. Look for the reasons to stay rather than the reasons to leave.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">He knows how I feel but I try to continue to tell him and I try to continue to show him and I try to continue to meet his ENs, kind of hard now that we're not living together.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Not necessarily! Learn to be friends, that is where you two should start anyway.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I love him and I want him-I have been through the questioning of my life and whether or not we'd be together if it weren't for that 1st PG. I questioned myself as to whether or not I loved him.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">And the answer was??

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I turned to a dear friend who encouraged me to love him, stay with him, care for him, give to him, pray and work and pray and work some more. And I fell in love with my H and I love him more every day.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Ah! Fonzee, now you are talking my language. Now all you have to do is make him feel safe.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I know he wants to respond too..I hope he does. He mentioned to me he wanted to talk to me first. I asked about me posting this, he doesn't know what I'm going to say until he reads this. He's interested to see what I think he's thinking. I also fear that he doesn't want to post feeling he'll be bashed again for the way he's feeling.

I pray that if he doesn't post here then he finds someone to talk to that can help him with his feelings.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I hope he posts here.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">JL- You're great...I am curious though, Have you had marriage troubles before, have you ever felt lost or out of love? Has your wife? Are you still married w or w/o kids? What is your definition of love?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">It is a complicated story because of it’s simplicity. There were/are no affairs on either side. I found this site because I felt that my W no longer loved me and simply needed me in her life for my pay check. After reading here, I have changed my point of view considerably. But, I really felt she didn’t love me.

Jeff, I will address what you said.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">On a practical level, W is correct for the most part, that is why it is important to me. Though it goes beyond the first PG to other things, such as quitting work full-time, quitting part time jobs, going to parties (home interior, creative memories type stuff, not real PARTIES) or church groups several nights a week, etc. Whether I'm right or wrong, I feel like I was taken advantage of for too many years.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Very likely you were taken advantage of, whether she intended to do it or not. But, I sense that there is something else. Let me try this out on you. Did you feel your voice wasn’t being heard? Did you feel that you really weren’t needed other than for the paycheck? Is the word “RESPECT” valid here? I think you felt a lack of respect. Am I getting close? Frankly, she didn’t respect you, but she probably never saw it as that. How about the word, CARE? Do you feel that she really didn’t care what you felt? How about the word NEGLECT? You feel sort of taken for granted and neglected?

Now, let me ask you. Would you feel loving toward some that didn’t respect you, didn’t really care for you, and mostly neglected you or your existence? I vote NO.

Do you see anything in this response Fonzee??

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">It's probably easier to explain on a philosophical level. I see the "everything happens for a reason" philosophy as a way to get what she wants without taking responsibility. You see, she has never said she is sorry for the 1st PG. It's ok in her mind because we "would have ended up here anyway." </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Gotcha! Yup, a good cover up for a bad decision. There are reasons for everything that happens, but that doesn’t mean there is only one path. It may be true that you two would have married, but she would have had to show and do more to get you to the point of marriage had not the pregnancy entered. Would you have married without it? Maybe not. But the event happened you each responded. The issue is how to deal with it.

But, Jeff have you ever considered she was ASHAMED of what she did? Further, if she really believes that “everything happens for a reason”, then she has some very deep guilt about the miscarriage, because that surely could be viewed as God’s answer to her deception. I think this is her way of protecting herself from some very harsh things, and very very painful things. Have you two ever thought about getting counseling for dealing with the miscarriage and all that surrounds it? I would strongly recommend it.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> tonight and I told her what I was going to post. She did say she was sorry for doing it, but still says we would have been here anyway.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I don’t agree with her. To say that also implies that YOUR feeling can not nor could they have been changed and that the inevitable conclusion to this is divorce. I don’t agree with this as you both know. Your actions do influence your future. Kids are not meant to fail school. They are not meant to die. It happens and we should learn from the happenings, but I don’t think her logic flies.

I think she is hiding very very deep pain and regret and perhaps that is why YOU feel so disconnected from her. This is an idea that I think we should explore because it addressed directly Harley’s concept of “radical honesty”. The hidden things, even if hidden to protect, lead to walls being built and feelings of disconnection, not necessarily by the wall builder, but the other person.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">bout the posting thing...taking Regrettings advice, we decided that we will discontinue this thread and start our own. I will continue posting as I feel I need to and she as well, but we will do it on separate threads.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I hope you two do read this, and respond. Doing separate ones about your individual issues sounds good to me.

God Bless,

JL

Hey JL! Thanks for the post. I debated about posting a response, but since everyone else thinks it's OK, I guess I will. Don't think I have anything too controversial to say tonight! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Either of you getting near 40? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">We are both 33....but I feel 50! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> My guess??? Wrong answer. He feels about you the way he does, because of how you have chosen to treat him during the marriage. He feels this way because of his choices (an A, etc) he has made, including choosing to not be “radically honest with you” when you were letting him down. This is an attitude issue. I work with and know a fair number of couples from India. Many of their marriages are arranged, yet they seem as happy and in love as anyone born here in US. How can this be? I think it is attitude, respect for each other, a knowledge of their expectations of marriage, and a willingness to make this situation as good as it can be. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I don't know what to say about this one. I kind of agree with you both. W's actions during the marriage certainly did not help the situation. I do, however, remember feelings up until and early on in the marriage that I did not love this woman like I should. Like I tried to relate in my first post, I shoved those feelings aside because my parents seemed like that also and so it must be OK.

I have always been curious about the India thing. I work with a programmer who has worked with many people from India also and he always tells stories. The guys all try to come to America on student Visa's and their primary reason is that they can get "better" wives that way. I can not even fathom how that could possibly work, but I guess it does. Different cultures/mindsets I guess.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Affairs will do that to ones perspective of history. I think virtually every person who strayed and has come here had those thoughts and voiced them. It is very common. Will those feelings be there in a month, two?? I don’t know. What I do know is that you two are married, and CAN build a marriage were love is there and so is the fun. It is a choice. It is NOT predestined. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">OK, maybe one controversial thing tonight. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> I told my wife this once and actually believe it. I believe my friend (aka OW) actually kept me married longer than I would have if I never knew her. She made me laugh and kept me from going insane. We would joke about our spouses at work and our stupid little pet peeves but it wasn't any heavy relationship talk. As I said, we had a common sense of humor, both liked similar recreational activities, etc. W has none of these, though I will give her credit for trying! I left that job, but kept in contact with my friend, but it wasn't on a daily basis as it was before. That's the point when I started having more anxiety problems...I think it was because she wasn't there to keep me sane. It was only after several failed attempts to communicate to my W that I opened up to her on an emotional level...bad move, I know.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Not necessarily! Learn to be friends, that is where you two should start anyway. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Thank you! I don't think that's the answer we'd get from most MB. That is what I am trying to do and I think she is receptive to it (somewhat reluctently). I think this marriage if it has a chance, needs to go back and start where it should have started in the first place.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">It is a complicated story because of it’s simplicity. There were/are no affairs on either side. I found this site because I felt that my W no longer loved me and simply needed me in her life for my pay check. After reading here, I have changed my point of view considerably. But, I really felt she didn’t love me. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Maybe that's why you are helping us so much. I do feel out of place here with all the pain and torment and just plain nasty things people do. I even see it in my own life with a sister and BIL who are going through a nasty divorce. It doesn't have to be incredibly cruel punishment for people to question their lives.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Very likely you were taken advantage of, whether she intended to do it or not. But, I sense that there is something else. Let me try this out on you. Did you feel your voice wasn’t being heard? Did you feel that you really weren’t needed other than for the paycheck? Is the word “RESPECT” valid here? I think you felt a lack of respect. Am I getting close? Frankly, she didn’t respect you, but she probably never saw it as that. How about the word, CARE? Do you feel that she really didn’t care what you felt? How about the word NEGLECT? You feel sort of taken for granted and neglected? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Ummm...YEAH! Wish I could have put it that eloquently when this all started! Especially the part about my voice not being heard. Believe me, I said it...but probably not enough.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> But the event happened you each responded. The issue is how to deal with it. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yep, agree.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> But, Jeff have you ever considered she was ASHAMED of what she did? Further, if she really believes that “everything happens for a reason”, then she has some very deep guilt about the miscarriage, because that surely could be viewed as God’s answer to her deception. I think this is her way of protecting herself from some very harsh things, and very very painful things. Have you two ever thought about getting counseling for dealing with the miscarriage and all that surrounds it? I would strongly recommend it. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yes, I absolutely know she thinks that was God's answer to her deception. But since I am not a very religous man, I'm not sure how to help her with that.

About counciling, at our first MC session (9 mos. ago or so?) she was going through our history for the councilor and conviently left out the pregnancy thing. I knew that was somewhere she didn't want to go, but brought it up myself. If we go back, it's something we should address.

JL - You have been SOOO much help! I still don't know where this is going, but there seems to be much more hope than when I first came here. I don't know exactly how to get those feelings for my W that I should have, but I think the dating and connecting as friends is a good start. I have no doubt that if we ended up divorced, she would have no problem finding a great guy very quickly. I on the other hand, could never find someone as beautiful and caring as her. What is wrong with me???

Thanks again,
Jeff

To Mthrrdbard,
I agree with all you say on the reality of his marriage and the OW. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> Which is right on target. As long as another woman is a BF there is no hope of marriage recovery he is too booked up. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> Was booked up in advance so easy excuse why his marriage is dull. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> More effort made outside of his marriage vows.......100% in agreement, I hear this all too often where ever I go, it seems there is a ready excuse to end a marriage then putting the effort into working on his marriage. It's a vow he made to keep not unkeep at the drop of a hat. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> And you bet the girls will be a mess for it.......I have four daughters and YES they are a mess from it all.......I seen it in my nephew his mom wanted out and he is a mess too. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Embarrassed]" src="images/icons/blush.gif" />
All the drugs sex and things gone wrong out there is an open door to many in coping and then a way of life...........so he is just making excuses to having his cake and eating it at the expense of his lovely sweet innocent daughters. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

Again, this is your proof that you never changed your mind. When it came right down to the nitty gritty you didn't embrace the MBers principles you were simply trying to convince yourself that you were making an effort to preserve your family while all along you were, in reality, still pining after your so called "friend", better known as OW.

Jeff,

I think Barbara posted a response to another thread. Hope she finds out and reposts. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

This all can get pretty complicated, but think over the ideas of respect, being heard, etc. They can eat at you and they definitely erode the feelings of love or closeness. As you two work on being friends or if Fonzee reads this, perhaps she will have some ideas.

I know this is all going to feel sort of artificial. If it didn't I would be worried. Doing something new, different, even stressing is NOT comfortable but one learns new ways to see things. I know I did.

I do think you and your W need to talk about the affect of the miscarriage on her thinking and hence her reactions to you. Further, I think that her deception of you has been eating at her for a long time. If you read here for very long you will be just absolutely blown away at the devestation caused by secrets. It is Harley's major focus, radical honesty, for that reason. It leads to resentments that the other person cannot address.

You have come to resent certain things about your marriage, but your W hasn't been able and perhaps not willing to address them until you finally really brought them out.

As for your W, having no problems finding someone else because she is beautiful, I have a question. What do you have against being married to a beautiful woman? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

But, what you want is something more. Right? Good for you.

I was thinking about you two this weekend and had a few very random thoughts. One is this. Ever see a new born, or at least a relatively young baby? What is your reaction? Sort of attraction (we are guys right?), a softness of heart when they smile, and sense you want to protect them. They are NOT even ours and we have this sense. When you see a child hurt? What are your instincts? Probably to help and comfort that child. You don't even have to know them, you just react.

You are probably wondering where this line of thinking is going. : ) But, I do have a point promise. When you look at your kids what do you think? A softness at heart, a wanting to protect them and make their life good?

When you see your W do you have those feelings? Here is a beautiful woman, married to you, who has weaknesses, failings (just like kids do), and needs love and protection just as they do. Yet...????

Jeff, if you become friends with your W. As you to start to really talk about things, and start to see her point of view, I think you are going to start to see a human being that needs someone in her life to share life with, help her overcome her fears and failings, and who loves you.

It will take time, but as you learn who your W is, and see the pain in her life, you will see her differently. I am pretty certain of this. That is why I know this can be rebuilt and made even better.

You say you two are 32. I was just married a year at 32. I loook back at that age and just shake my head at how much I didn't know. How differently I see things today. Jeff it is part of life to not appreciate what we have. We all do it. But, it is also part of life to begin to see the depths of things, the textures of life, that at first elude us. I think if you hang around here, post and read your sensitivities to these textures is going to really go up.

Your W may find the same thing. She wants you back, but she isn't sure why. Some word called love keeps cropping up. You probably keep thinking if this is love, her style, I don't think I want any. But what you two will learn here, is how to give and receive love. It doesn't come naturally to most folks. Lust is easy, puppy love is easy, infactuation (sp) is straight forward, but real love takes time, patience and a deeper view of things and the proper perspective of lifes chores to really appreciate.

You will get there if you will give it a chance and your W is willing to help.

One last observation from around here. Most people who have strayed and come here, often explain the evolution of their affair, as at first talk, then listening to the other persons painful experiences with the spouse, and then offering a shoulder to lean on, an ear to listen, and helpful support while the person works on the marriage. This interestingly leads this person to fall in love.

While I have no difficulties with the Harley approach or what he says, it seems to me we often fall in love for those we act loving toward. My example above being a case. It is a case of meeting needs but the very process also changes us and makes us more sensitive to that person.

I must go. Hope I have given you some more things to think about. Hope your W comes by this thread.

God Bless,

JL

I am responding from work over my lunch hour. I usually like to print these things off and make notes and really think before I respond…so I’m sure there will be more that I want to share, but may have to come in a different post. I’ll share the things I can think of now…I wanted you to know that I’m still here and reading and really thinking about what you and Jeff post.

JL-when I said that I thought Jeff needed to take this time to decide whether or not he wanted to make our marriage work, etc…you mentioned that I too need to decide that. I think I have decided that…I do want to get past all of this and build a stronger, better, more loving marriage, with Jeff. I am committed to him and to finding/trying better ways to make our marriage happier and healthier. I am better able to handle constructive critism and his openness and honesty about his feelings, than I use to be. I feel I can look at more than my own POV now. I know that some of the things he says and is feeling may hurt me, but I am committed to listening and working with him to get past these things and move forward.

As far as is there more to my past, that I am hiding pain or afraid of something more coming out? I didn’t think so until I read your post and it got to me, made me think it’s possible. Nothing that I think I’ve done to deceive Jeff or hurt him, nothing that I’m hiding from since our relationship though…maybe more in my childhood that I should have dealt with. I’ll have to think about that and try to decide whom, when, and where to talk to about that. I don’t know that I feel safe talking to Jeff or posting here right now. My openness and honesty has already made Jeff not trust me. Why would I want to risk telling him more of my dysfunctional life that would push him farther away or love me less than he already does? I feel more hope than ever for our marriage, everyday now, I don’t want to loose that.

You sure did make me realize that there is more that I can be doing. I really feel I know what I want, a better marriage, family and life with my husband, Jeff. But there is always something more that I could be doing to show him how committed I am, how much I love him, how much I care for him, how much I want to be with him, no one else.

About Jeff’s post…the MC we tried, we’ve talked about this before and even in that MC session. The 1st PG thing…I do bring it up, I do tell about it, I just put our life in chronological order. I tell our life the way it’s happened, from my POV. I tell about how/why we moved in together (the 1st PG), then I tell we had a miscarriage but stayed together anyway- grew closer-I felt so close to him at one point that I thought it was time to tell him about 1st PG, that it wasn’t necessarily an accident on my part…then so on. I do tell about my deception, I just tell it in the order I shared it with Jeff.

I have shared with Jeff, my belief for why we lost that pregnancy, I feel it was Gods way of telling us we weren’t ready and so we wouldn’t have to wonder in 10 years if that was the only reason we stayed together. Kind of funny, that is what we’re wondering anyway, even though we lost it, I’m sure that has a lot to do with the timing of when I shared with Jeff.

We have also had another miscarriage, totally unexpected/unplanned pregnancy, about 3 years ago. I had gone off the pill for health reasons…tried several different ones, etc. We thought we were being safe but ended up pregnant, when I lost that one…that’s when I shared with Jeff about the first one. I wondered/feared he would think this one was not an accident either.

About Jeff’s posts about me always being gone w/parties, church activities, etc. I didn’t realize at that time that it bothered him so much-now that I know, I would like to start practicing the POJA. He says that independence is an EN for him…so now that I’m back to work full time out of the home, maybe that will become one of mine as well. I may need a few hours a week to myself, to get groceries, read a book, just be alone. I use to get that while I was at home, while one child was in school all day, the younger one went to preschool 2 mornings a week…that’s when I did that kind of stuff. But I am very willing to give Jeff time alone as well.

Jeff’s comment about me finding someone else…I don’t want someone else, I only want him…I want to be his best friend, I want him to be proud of me and be happy to introduce me as his wife and friend.

It’s still very hard for me to show much emotion or just let go and cry in front of Jeff. Because for a while he felt I was only doing that to make him feel guilty or make him feel sorry for me. That seems to be changing…he does seem to care/hurt for me when I get teary eyed, slowly I’ll feel comfortable again, I hope.

We’ve talked about that also-that years ago, we’d talk/argue..I’d cry and run to another room, we wouldn’t talk for a few hours, he’d come say he’s sorry and it’d be over, never brought up again. I/We see the damage that was done by that. We get it talked out now. I really try to apologize and talk more, not just cry and run away. I try to say I’m sorry more often, sometimes I’ll think of something I said that may not have come across the way I wanted it too…I’ll bring it up later and make sure we understood it the same or apologize if it didn’t, we both seem to do that now. We both agree that we handle this much better now, we talk it out and get it out and try to deal with it at the time it’s an issue, not much later when there are many issues to bring up.

Like I said, I’m sure after I review the posts and make more notes and think…I’ll probably be back with more. I am so amazed that you care so much for two people you don’t even know. Jeff and I talked about this Saturday night…you really care about us, you really want to see our marriage work, you really want to give us things to think about and talk about…and you’re getting no benefit from this. I hope and pray that one day Jeff and I will be able to share our story or help someone else out that thinks there is no hope!

Talk to you later…Fonzee

Fonzee,

I think you have it. You said </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Jeff and I talked about this Saturday night…you really care about us, you really want to see our marriage work, you really want to give us things to think about and talk about…and you’re getting no benefit from this. I hope and pray that one day Jeff and I will be able to share our story or help someone else out that thinks there is no hope!</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">That is your's and Jeff's job. To make this marriage work and help someone else. It may even be your own children. You have no idea the rewards that come from you two seeing things differently and then passing on what you learn.

You two are soooo young. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> I know you don't feel like it but believe me you are. Neither of you are ready for the MLC, but around 30 is a very interesting time. You are starting to see how life really is, and you are starting to see that it isn't a faire tale, but you aren't so sure how to handle it. Plus you have the responsibilities of family and children.

There is something I want both of you to consider and it is very evident from your posts. You have TREMENDOUS power over the other person. I know you don't realize how much how you act and feel affects your H. If you start to change things IT WILL CHANGE HIM. And the same goes for him. You haven't realized yet that you two can change yourselves and thus each other into people you can truely and deeply love.

Jeff is not sure you are the one. Well, there isn't a ONE. At least not in my opinion. You decide to make a person, THE ONE. Then you make vows to keep them in that position. It really is a decision. It is so hard for me to articulate to you the subtlty of this.

Physical attraction is just that: attraction. It often starts off the relationship, but it isn't what love is about. Next comes friendship, now this should be a permenant part of the relationship, and it leads to love because people start to open up and share. You begin to trust, and you begin to evolve.

Is there one person for this process? No. Is there one person you have committed to? Yes. Can you and Jeff change how you view one another? Yes. Can you change how you view yourself and react to him and he you? Yes.

Nothing is set in stone, but the willingness to keep ones promises and truely love and charish this other human being. It takes effort and it takes practice. Ever heard the saying familiarity breeds contempt? Well it does unless one is aware that all people have flaws, and looks at the good parts as well.

Fonzee, I know you want him back. I suspect he wants to come back. But, if you read here, you need to recognize what drove him away. Was it lack of respect? You need to ask him. Was it lack of care? You need to ask him. Was it something else? You need to ask him.

Why ask him? I doubt you set out to hurt him. I doubt you wanted to drive him away. But you didn't ask him and you didn't feel you were doing something that did hurt him. You didn't take the time to learn about him FROM HIM. If you do this you will start to see him differently and he you.

He must do the same. But, if you do this you will find that both of you will feel much more deeply for one another. Never assume you know him, ask. You may assume that he is pretty independent and really doesn't want you to touch him. My bet is if the next time you see him you touch him or kiss him, he won't get sick. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> Then talk about this. Most men love physical contact, but few of us actually ask for it or admit it.

So many things but they usually come down to assuptions made because communications wasn't what it needed to be.

Fonzee, as for your childhood issues, I would seek out a good counselor. But, I would talk to your H about them. He may not be able to help, but he might understand things better. Your fears, your focus, your needs. So talk and then seek professional help.

Let's face one thing. While he may have felt you trapped him (most of us guys find that flattering), he had a chance to back out, but didn't. Perhaps he could see in your eyes the hurt you were feeling from the miscarriage. Perhaps he couldn't hurt you further. But that is precisely the point. He couldn't do it,because he felt things for you and wanted to protect you. There was more than the baby involved with his decisions.

You will both come to understand that life is nothing but a series of choices and the best you can hope for is to make the "right and honest" decision for that time. One is then left to make the best of it. If you/Jeff made the best decision at the time, he should not go back and regret it. He did the right thing at the time and that is something to be proud of.

Keep reading, thinking and posting. You will learn alot I guarentee you that.

God Bless,

JL

I got through page 2 of this thread before I had to stop to respond. Maybe I should have read the rest of the posts first, but I feel compelled to respond.

CTOAN,

It sounds like you have gone through your entire life not caring one way or another about what happened. You never once stood up for how you felt (not really wanting to get married but it was convenient, not really wanting kids but W wanted them). It sounds like you didn't want to rock the boat so you took the easiest route by not speaking up when you had the opportunity and now you are taking the stance of a victim of your wife's decisiveness in getting married, having kids, and becoming a SAHM. You had the opportunity at that time to speak up and voice your opinion and you chose not to. Now you are pointing the finger at your wife as the reason you didn't have a say in your what went on in your life. You did have a full say. You simply chose not to say it. If you have an opportunity, you might want to look up Passive/Agressive Personality Disorder. I believe you will see some striking similarities between that description and you.

You also had the opportunity to be as selfish and self-serving as you wanted to be so that all you had to think about was what YOU wanted for yourself. That is when you are a childless single person. Regardless of whether or not the fact that you have kids is something you see as your wife's responsibility since she made that decision which you passively allowed her to make for you, you have kids to think about. From what I have read, it is obvious that concerns for what YOU want outweigh what they want. It is you who is making the decision to turn THEIR lives upside down. Have you ever asked them what they want? I wouldn't assume that they WANT their parents to get divorced just because YOU WANT to get a divorce.

You sound like a person who FEELS his way through life. So long as it feels good for you, you could care less one way or another. Once something is actually expected of you as a husband, it stops feeling so good for you so you run and say you don't FEEL love for your wife anymore. Love is not a FEELING. It is an action verb. Love is something you do. It is obvious that the LOVE that you have chosen to do is for you and you alone. If that is all you are capable of, then you should get your divorce and allow your family to move on and find a someone who truly understands what LOVE is. I've always heard that the opposite of love is not hate. The opposite of love is selfishness and you display an ample amount of selfishness. Nothing destroys love faster than selfishness.

It sounds like you have already made your decision so I'm not sure why you are here except to hope that someone will accept your rationalization that it would be best for you to get your divorce. Well, you got it. You have every reason in the world to try to make your marriage work except one: selfishness. That one reason wipes out everything else so that all of those other reasons to work on your marriage WILL NEVER MATTER TO YOU. So by all means, do your wife and kids a favor and get that divorce. They need someone who understands what stability and committment mean, as well as someone who is capable of loving THEM more than they love themselves. Love is selfless. Are you selfless? I'd say not.

Hi All,

JL - I think Barbara and the last poster found exactly the right thread to post to. They just didn't read it all. I appearently just can't communicate well. Hence the problems with my marriage, I guess.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Neither of you are ready for the MLC, but around 30 is a very interesting time. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">WHAT!!! You mean I have to go through that too!!! I thought that's what I was doing!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

OK - Can'tThink is coming back now.....

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> . He did the right thing at the time and that is something to be proud of. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This is something I struggle with constantly. In my mind I did the right thing for her...for the unborn child...for my parents...for society, but...it wasn't in my heart. Same answer (except for the child) when we got married. I felt I have listend "done what is right" and not what is in my heart for all of my life since that happened. This is exactly why I get so PO'd at the people on here who say I'm being selfish. I have been unselfish and giving for 10+ years. Sorry...I'm tired of it....W realizes it, JL realizes it...I don't know about the rest of you.

lorac - Yes, please do read an entire post before you respond. As I said above, I probably did not do a good job in communicating when I first started this.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> You sound like a person who FEELS his way through life. So long as it feels good for you, you could care less one way or another. Once something is actually expected of you as a husband, it stops feeling so good for you so you run and say you don't FEEL love for your wife anymore. Love is not a FEELING. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Absolutly the opposite. I am a person who thinks about everything. That is why I am here. I am only now starting to feel!

Can'tThink,

Alright! Now we are talkin. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

You said </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I felt I have listend "done what is right" and not what is in my heart for all of my life since that happened. This is exactly why I get so PO'd at the people on here who say I'm being selfish. I have been unselfish and giving for 10+ years. Sorry...I'm tired of it....W realizes it, JL realizes it...I don't know about the rest of you. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Ok, The parts I put in bold are what we need to talk about.

First, thing: What is it you want? Describe to me your ideal marriage. I am not joking. I want to know it all. What would it feel like to you? What would it function like for you?

We need to get to this.

Have you read about the subject of the Giver/Taker. Harley is really big on this concept. We all have a part of that is a Taker and a Giver. IF in our marriage on or the other dominates, there is going to be trouble. You feel as if your Giver has been going full bore, but your Taker has been pushed back into a corner. Now the Taker part is out and roaring. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> The pendulum swings doesn't?

Please read about this concept here and how to balance it. A good marriage or any relationship cannot be based on one person feeling they are making the sacrifices and not getting something back for the taker. Or you get deep resentment.

And WhoDat used to have this great saying on his posts. "Resentment is like taking poison and waiting for the other person to die."

I just love that saying. We are finally starting to get to the "crust of the bisquit" now. You resent having been fooled into something you feel you got little out of. Makes sense to me.

Now the deal is we need to figure out if that means throwing the baby out with the bath water or perhaps some balancing of the Giver/Taker on the part of you, AND Fonzee. I think you two can strike a balance, more importantly I think you two can finally really fall in love. You got two children to consider, and they can be viewed as a help or a hinderance, depending how you two do this.

Can't, you really are closer than you think. You are very very right you two need to become friends again. You need to see the good in each other, learn to really talk and communicate. I have a book you should read. It is actually for woman, but I say in when on travel,laughed my a$$ off and learned alot.

It is called "Men made easy." By an author named Oh. I think she has it right, but it is about us guys and our view of things. It is sort of a 12 step point of view, but is easy reading, I found it funny. You might find it interesting.

My point is that as you talk here, and talk with Fonzee, you will start to see things that were missing. Hopefully, she will read here and see how you feel. There is no arguing with feelings, because they just are. But, once she sees this, she might realize what we were talking about with regard to respect, to being heard, to the issue of care. It is clear that she didn't take care to make sure that you were included in part of her life other than to do things for her.

Now what you may hear, is that she did cook, clean, etc. But, they weren't your needs were they? You needed financial support (ie you wanted her to work to relieve some of the burden from you and life a better life), you needed other things from her. Perhaps now she will be more sensitive to your needs, and you won't feel taken advantage of.

But, Jeff you also need to look at how you did things. Perhaps you didn't get the feedback because you were missing her targets as well.

So keep posting. Don't worry about people that don't read the whole thing. You and Fonzee should be taking from this what you need, not necessarily what you want to hear but what you know strikes home. The rest of it, just ignore and that surely goes for what I am saying.

You two can do this, and the neat part is you are doing it at the right age. It is really is the right age to set your marriage where it needs to be. I wish I could explain this better, but the 20's are when you are still growing and changing. THe 30's are when you really start to make moves in your life, and making a good move in your marriage is the best way to set yourself up for many years of happiness. You will also find that about this time in a marriage and your age is when many people seem to have problems.

So you aren't unique. Sorry. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

You two don't know how cool the 40's and 50's can be. Much better than the 20's. That is what you two just came out of. But, I do know one thing Jeff, while you seem to regret it now, you will come to be proud that you did the "right things" in your life. What you need is some recogniztion for doing it. I think you may just reap some serious rewards for doing. I think Fonzee is seeing you differently already.

Let this stuff percolate for awhile, keep reading and learning. I think the concepts of Giver/Taker are your next challenge. Look at it this way, you cannot lose. You WILL be a better H no matter what.

God Bless,

JL

PS: Doing the "right thing" is very clearly part of who you are and is indeed "in your heart." You are denying yourself with the quoted statement. Won't wash here my friend. You cannot deny your basic character. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> It is to do the "right thing."

JL - You are driving me nuts man!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Doing the "right thing" is very clearly part of who you are and is indeed "in your heart." You are denying yourself with the quoted statement. Won't wash here my friend. You cannot deny your basic character. It is to do the "right thing." </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You make WAY too much sense. I am too tired to post much now, but will respond later.

I was actually just re-reading thorugh everything and was going to ask Regretting for her 5-6 paragraphs she promisised me about "everything happens for a reason". Regretting???

Oh Man, I told you I was sure I’d leave something out of my last post, probably one of the most important things, I wanted to address…respect or lack of. I guess that just proves that I still have a lot to work on and to learn.

Over our summer separation, I read a lot of books, one of the first ones I read taught me to step back and take a look at myself. I needed to change myself, my attitude before I could expect anyone else to want to change. That was very hard to swallow but I did it. I realized a lot that was missing in our marriage and a lot of it was what I wasn’t giving! Ouch!

At that time I remembered back to some of the things Jeff had tried to bring up over a course of years, but at that time I felt justified for all I said and did-or I just ran away from the topic and it was dropped. I now see how badly I handled a lot of things.

While separated, Jeff and I wrote letters back and forth to each other. In one letter I wrote, I told Jeff what I thought I hadn’t been giving him, I was sure there was more-but some of the things I brought up and wanted to change were: That I didn’t value Jeff, just his presence…and all that he did from little things such as changing light bulbs to opening juice lids, bigger things such as yard work to car repairs, most of all, I didn’t show him the respect he deserved. I had quit asking for his input on stuff and my life had become the kids. What’s the old saying…Hindsight’s 20/20? I do wish I could go back and do things differently. I just wish I had known then how to value and respect, love and care for and enjoy JEFF and OUR marriage and OUR family!

When he responded to that letter, it was more or less..too little too late, understandable. He said even if all of that changed, he didn’t think it would work anyway. He was simply not in love with me.

I continued to wait, bring up other options and tried to continue to show him my new attitude and hope. I remember thinking he was probably wondering how long I could keep this up, how long it would be before I snapped and turned back into my ugly old self. I continue to try to show him now, that will not happen, I see things differently and love him differently.

I do have a whole new outlook on life. I do have a whole new attitude and I feel that I am understanding what “real love” is. I want JEFF to feel valued, respected and loved by ME, I want him to like it so much that he wants to give it back to ME.

Thanks for listening and for caring and for trying to help us out!
Fonzee

You all have been so wonderful and have given both of us much to think about and work on and apply to our lives and our marriage.

After talking with Jeff last night, I feel he is overwhelmed right now. He says all of this is moving a little faster than he was ready for it too. All of your messages are great and they help us with how to deal with our marriage…however, Jeff is not ready to focus on our marriage. He still can’t say what he wants because he is still unsure of what he wants. He can’t answer the question “What would your ideal marriage be like? Or What would your ideal wife be like?” because he doesn’t know. I think he needs more help with how to find himself before he’ll be ready to apply all of this good stuff to our marriage.

I will continue to read and think and post to this thread as long as someone else does and asks for my input. I am also planning on starting my own post to work on my individual self.

Thanks again to all of you! I still have so much hope; it is just going to take time and patience.
Fonzee

Jeff,

Sooooo, you don't know the answer to your question about the perfect marriage or wife. I am not surprised. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> But, you think is one is out there somewhere right?

Let me guess it isn't the old: beautiful blond nypho, who owns a bottle shop, is it? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

The point of those questions is simple there probably isn't a right answer. You should really think about this because it illustrates many things. How little we plan for success. How often we fail to recognize that we have been successful. And how we can chase an ephemoral idea without really focusing on the details. All of these failings can lead to great discontent.

My point here is that when you and Fonzee get back together it will because because you finally see her good points. You won't be settling any longer, you will have chosen to accept her as she is, well maybe she will polish up a few things. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> Right Fonzee???

I think when it all gets said and done you will realize you had most of what you always wanted all along. Your decision making was more instinctual when choosing her, than you would like, but your instincts weren't that far off. Were things fall apart is lack of quantifying what you really liked about her, about being a father, about being a husband. It is much easier to focus on the things that give you discomfort. But, if those things are analyzed you may see the discomfort came not from her but from yourself. Which means NO WOMAN can address that issue, it is yours.

So, continue to conjure up your ideal marriage and woman. Come here a lay out some ideas and we will discuss them. Perhaps even Fonzee can help. After all she knows you better than anyone else.

This is harder than you thought isn't it? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> All of these questions, focusing on the contradictions, people banging on your about your points of view. But, Jeff you are stronger than you think. Most everyone really is.

Hang in there.

God Bless,

JL

PS: Fonzee do post and offer your ideas. Heck, what do you think would be your perfect marriage and H. It is a fair question for you as well.

Okay, Here's the answer to your question JL:

What is my ideal marriage and husband? The marriage and husband that I have right now!

How would I like to see our marriage improve? I would love for us both to be willing and wanting to make it better for each other and for ourself everyday.

I would like to post more but don't have much time right now, I'll get back to you.
fonzee

I'm sorry Fonzee, but that is a cop out. I should know...I've been doing it too. Neither one of us can answer the question of what our ideal marriage is.

Can you really say you have been happy for the last 10 years? Can you honestly say you are happy with the husband you have now? The husband that made you move to an apartment so he could have some "me time". The one that drinks too much, that smokes too much, who's feet stink, who farts in bed, who spends too much money.

You need to think about the question and I need to think about the question and we need to decide if we can live with the answers. I have been punting with the "I don't know" line also, so I am doing it too.

I'm doing something that is not like me, I'm posting without taking time to think and ponder and come up with just the right words to write...

Jeff, Yes I can say that I've been more happy than unhappy for the last 12 years. Yes, there have been times that I was unhappy or even very unhappy...but the point is that life and marriage are like a roller coaster, sometimes you're up and sometimes you're down. So when things look really down you have to stick it out and tredge your way back up the hill to make it good again.

Like you and I've talked about before, we've already seen some of those bad times and came out of them better...this is a really bad time for us and when we get past this one it doesn't mean there won't be more bad times...but we'll be stronger and have more love for each other and that will help us through the next one.

And don't try to tell me that I'll find someone better and I deserve someone better...you tell me that I sell myself short when I don't think I deserve something better. And I've told you, when you said that to me before, and I'll tell you again, YOU'RE selling yourself short when you say that! I do deserve something better...and so do you...we both deserve each other to be committed and willing to do what it takes to make our marriage happier and healthier and one that we both want to be in.

I've said many times, I will not regret this time apart, I do want it to be your decision to be with me...and if this is what it takes for you to make your decision, then so be it...I will wait for you...YOU are worth the wait Jeff!

I love YOU and want to be with YOU, in a cardboard box, in our home, in an apartment, with or without money, with or with out drinking, smoking, farting, stinky feet and all the stuff you have to put up with, with me! I want to be a better person with YOU, I want to be a more beautiful person for YOU...I want, I want, I want...you've heard that before, huh? I know what I want, I'm just having a hard time figuring out how to get it... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> (I don't know how to use all these neat little gadgets, yet!)

Jeff, and Fonzee,

While I have you burning rubber thinking about those questions, <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> let me throw another log on Jeff's fire. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

I thought of an analogy that I would like to try on you. Like all of mine they are very simple and transparent, so don't worry I am not trying to trick you. But, I think you need to know why I asked you both these questions.

Ok Jeff, let's say that 50K of income would meet your financial requirements. Maybe just barely but they would do. So this guy comes along and says I feel sorry for you, I will give you $1000K tax free. Now in todays market, you could probably get a 5% return on that kind of money, so you would be set for life, with your 50K income.

Next thing that happens is this guy turns into Bob Barker on Price is Right and offers you a deal. A flip of a coin and you can have $2000K, or have nothing. You have a choice.

Now the 50K is OK, but you are just barely getting by with that. A 100K would be much better. So what is your choice???

I will tell you mine. I would take the $1000K up front and not take the chance. Why? I know that I could find some good investments or perhaps start a company that could grow to return me more than 50K a year. I am pretty certain that working the market or money instruments could lead to a better return over the long term, I could use the 50K and plow the excess back into the investment. It would be a long term strategy.

Now the point of this. You have a marriage now. If you go back to Fonzee, it would sort of be like settling for the 50K. Yes, there is a chance for a much better income. It simply requires that you take a 50/50 chance. Oddly enough about the same odds of marriage succeeding. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

OR you could take the 50K income with the idea of investing for the long term. Taking what you have and turning it into something far more rewarding. You can do this with a marriage Jeff.

Now one piece of information. The 50% failure rate of marriages includes ALL marriages. The failure rate of second marriages is roughly 70%. Third marriages are about the same. First marriage do better than 50%.

So while you are thinking of the idea marriage, you need to decide if you are going for it with a flip of the coin 50/50, at best of getting a better marriage, or you are going to go for you ideal marriage with a long term investment strategy, building on what you already have.

Just thought I would throw this in to make a little more rubber burn. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

God Bless,

JL

PS: Fonzee, while this was addressed to Jeff, I think you need to understand that you MUST be part of the long term plan or he might as well flip the coin.

JL -

I know what you are trying to say and I do agree with you. I will resist my natural urge to play devil's advocate and poke some holes in the analogy (diversification, bad investments, etc.) <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

As I said, I do agree with the analogy, and feel I was making that investment for a long time, just trying to get feelings to emerge. My problem is that I did the logical thing at the expense of my emotions and it did not do good things to my mental health. Here is a poor analogy, but say I invested the $ in something that I morally or ethically did not agree with. I may see a good return, but it just doesn't feel right. I've got to make my relationship with Fonzee feel right before I'm going to be happy with the return. Before I get flammed, I am NOT saying that I have something morally or ethically against marriage. I'm just trying to make a point.

I called Fonzee last night as soon as I saw her post to thank her for it. She needs to post more often with her gut rather than going over every word with a fine tooth comb. It feels much more real that way. I, on the other hand, could take a little more time sometimes. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Embarrassed]" src="images/icons/blush.gif" />