Wow, I'm sorta glad I was snowed out of my house (and away from my computer) while this was going on.

After reading all these posts, I'll offer what I call the boiled down logic for why it is absolutely necessary to "out" affairs to all who are affected, either directly or indirectly:

Affairs are lies and the truth will set us free. If a BS chooses to help keep the secret, they are an accomplice. Period.

OF COURSE the OP should be the one to reveal the truth to the unsuspecting spouse. And all murderers should turn themselves in. Too extreme? OK, how's this: All tax cheats should call the IRS and request an audit. "Hey, I cheated on my taxes last year!! Where were you guys?"

Don't hold your breath.

The fact that the OM in question here is a world class hypocrit is irrelevant. ALL infidels are hypocrits - some just more sickening than others. It could have been a marriage counselor rather than a "holy" man. Which is the greater hypocrisy?

The truth is that all affairees are rationalizers. Could be this OM is invoking the word of God somehow to justify his behavior. No different than any other OP - rationalizing and manufacturing "goodness" from evil, right from wrong, up from down. The very best way to upset this "unreality" is to expose it to ridicule by those NOT involved. jimtex - this has everything to do with fixing the preexisting marriage problems because while the affair is in progress, nothing can be fixed regarding the affairees.

I encourage all who haven't read them to see the links embedded in the link in my sig line that deal with this topic - and add your views.

Heart, take to heart the Catholic church in the news recently, and for years! children being molested, women raped. Do you suppose if someone had gone higher up the chain and reported, there might have been an investigation sooner?
Do you think maybe these men would have been held accountable long before others were harmed?
Do you think maybe the cries of the masses might have caused them to remove these people rather then just shift thema round so they could continue?
Somebody kept their mouth shut! and years later, innocents are paying the price.
Yes, I would want to ask a few ? of young ladies, old ladies, boys, men. To see if anyone had been approached by anyone in a position of trust!
Many times they're afraid to come forward.
First of all, 20 yrs supposedly has proof! That needs checking out first by elders or someone else in authority in the church to see if it's actually the person in ?.
This isn't suggested as a hanging party or witch trial. But investigating is needed.
You're worried about joining that church due to people taking responsibility to insure their spiritual leader is morally decent?
It can happen in any denomination. Thank God it's rare though.
Or is it? Maybe somebody is just aware and keeping their mouth shut because they're cowards or wimps!
A lot of people couldn't care less as long as their own little world gets off it's tilt.
Church is supposed to be a sanctuary for those hurting. And seeking spiritual guidance. And yes, it's a place for sinners, not saints!
One sinner leading another is not my idea of good guidance.Sort of like a dog returning to it's own vomit!
Let us imagine your WS is consorting with someone else. Terrorist? Plans to harm thousands of people? is this not your business or is it ok if she/he just comes home and you keep your mouth shut? I don't see any difference because this pastor, if he is one, is using a weapon of mass destruction that can take many souls!
Satan roams about seeking whom he may devour. What better place than right inside a church?
Sheesh. Get real. And maybe you should join some church, but wouldn't you want to make sure you're being taught the truth?
One who will lie, deceive, and conduct his private life such as this pastor, is more apt to twist every word around to suit his own conscience.
And many will never pick up a bible and learn for themselves! They just take the spiritual leaders word for it.
The best way to handle this is exactly by bringing it to light. Once light is shed on evil, it easier to get rid of it.
Intelligent people know how to investigate and have evidence before hanging said perpetrator.
One holding the evidence is an acccomplice pure and simple when it's hidden from others.
LouLou

I think what lou (and rest of us are saying) is that if ones marriage is more important than anything else, then it is dubious you are a worthwhile marital partner. There are lots of civic responsibilites one has to set above personal needs, including the impact on your personal life....otherwise we don't live in a civilized society, we live in a jungle, and in jungles affairs are just fine. So if a bs is going to become an accomplice in the secrecy, they give up all rights to their own pain, and discomfort. They are no different than the ws....ie manipulative liars (by omission, not telling is a lie of omission when you know someone needs to know what you know), and manipulation cause you conceal to avoid consequences you don't like.

<small>[ February 19, 2003, 10:19 AM: Message edited by: LurkingAbout ]</small>

Lurkingabout, Well said. Wish I could verbalize as well as you do.
Worthatry, Welcome back. Sorry about your snow pack. I'm in sunny So. Ca.
I love snow, but not that much. LOL
Stay warm. Spring is just around the corner.
LouLou

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> So if a bs is going to become an accomplice in the secrecy, they give up all rights to their own pain, and discomfort. They are no different than the ws....ie manipulative liars (by omission, not telling is a lie of omission when you know someone needs to know what you know), and manipulation cause you conceal to avoid consequences you don't like. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Lurking,

How in the hell can you say this? I owe more to society than to my own marriage? So, as a BS who chose not to inform the OM's wives, girlfriends, employers, and families I am a manipulative liar? I chose not to humiliate my wife in the public arena so that makes me no different than the WS? Get off your judgemental horse and take a long hard look at reality.

How dare you say that any BS who does not inform the OP partners / spouses / etc. is a manipulative liar. Your holier than thou crap is about to make me sick. As a devote Catholic myself, I find your reasoning and judgement to be unacceptable in this forum.

So, jimtex, does the wife of OM#1 in your case know about the affair? If the answer is "no", how do you feel knowing this secret? If the answer is "yes", do you believe she deserved to know or not?

How would you feel if you hadn't known, but someone could have told you, say, months earlier, denying you valuable Plan A time - all the while having unprotected sex with your wife??

WAT

well jim, you said it all pretty much, if your marriage is more important to you than anyone elses needs, then enjoy your jungle. I will continue astride my high horse and promote a civilized society. btw, I agree with your reality check, indeed many bs will think only of themselves, and that is why they are no different than a ws, and indeed many are no different...a fact born out by the numbers of bs who go on to be ws themselves at some point.

btw, the truth is not humiliation (and shame an appropriate natural consequence a ws should not be spared from), and no one said take out a billboard, you are overreacting to the premise...which is in a civilized society we look out for each other, even at some personal cost. Marriage is not exempt from this. Anyways, I know of no marriage that has suffered from a responsibly revealed affair, I doubt you do either. If that ends a marriage, it was dead anyways, and not the reason it failed at all.

As a devout Catholic, could you point me to Scripture or church doctrine that says concealing misconduct is the Christian mandate?

<small>[ February 19, 2003, 12:01 PM: Message edited by: LurkingAbout ]</small>

WAT,

As far as I know, OM#1's wife does not know. It's not my secret to tell.

There are no less than 6 people, not including the OM, that knew about my wife's A's before me. I used to call them the "accomplices". I know and had regular contact with almost all of the six on a fairly regular basis.

I know what it feels like to be the last to know. I harbored much ill will against the so called accomplices until I realized that the A's had to end on their own accord. I discovered the A's on my own. That discovery was made at a time that my wife was at rock bottom.

Sure my wife was angry that I made it a condition that we could not be together if she continued the A's. My wife also tells me of the great relief she experienced when she learned I still wanted her regardless.

It hurt but we are together and more in love than ever.

Lurking,

Love is a decision, marriage is a choice. Marriages die because we chose to let them die not because they were dead to begin with.

I do not base all of my life's actions on scripture or church mandates. Frankly, that's between me and God. Judge me as you sit atop your high horse. I hope you have a nice view from there. I have done what I feel was best for my marriage.

Lurking, the fact of the matter is we do not live in a civilized society. Now, we may live in the most civilized part of the jungle but we live in the jungle. Do you honestly believe that me ramming a spear through OM#1's spouses heart is going to show the world anything. I trust you have or will live up to your own principles.

Tell me if I'm wrong, jimtex, but it seems your "not my job" view is being driven a lot by your own circumstances - by the time you found out, it was practically over anyway.

Now consider 20years' situation: His wife is in denial that anything wrong is going on and she's so much deluded that she's convinced she'll "die" if she can't continue with OM. The consensus view here is that the affair must be revealed to provide OM some motivation to end it, since 20years' wife shows no inclination to do so. What would you have done in his situation? Not take a chance that revealing the affair on the opposite side might end it sooner - before your love bank gets depleted? - before further harm came to your children? - before lawyers and a lot of money get committed? - before things get SOOOO whacked out that any chance of reconciliation flits away?

Put aside the "holier than thou" stuff for a minute and tell us honestly that you would take a chance on the affair NOT ending prior to divorce just to avoid spilling the beans because it's not your responsibility and it has to die on it's own? Not because of some moral obligation to tell OP's spouse, but to take practically the only step a BS can take to quicken the end? What if it had been going on for months on end and you were desperate to do anything?

I am gratified to hear that you are doing well in your recovery. But back to my original point, what if things for you had been different?

WAT

Not your secret to tell? How is ownership of a secret determined anyways? What a blatant copout/rationalization. Do what you want, but at least own up to your own self-serving focus. And yeah, it is your secret, you join the group (including your wife) of co-conspirators unwilling to come to this womans aid for your own benefit. If you observed someone being mugged, you'd just ignore that to, none of your business, you might get hurt, even killed, so what if the victim dies, better them than you. How does this kind of attitude promote a safe civilized society where we watch each others backs, instead of what's in it for me? What kind of world do you want to live in? Fortuneately there are people who put aside there own interests and well-being everyday to help someone else, sometimes we call these people heroes for their selflessness, seems pretty admirable to me.

as for spears jim, better the spear of truth so one can conduct their life, than the spear of deceit and denying her the options as you are. Sometimes the truth hurts, but to conceal the right of self-determination from someone is far worse. That is why IMO a bs who deliberately helps keep the secret is no different than any other self-serving individual, including ws. You have made your position clear, you are going to be trustworthy only to the extent it serves you, I get it. I find it hard to understand how you can say you will only follow your (religious) beliefs when it suits you though, what is the point of having beleifs then? Unless you follow them even when you do not want to.

There is little doubt in my mind that you would reveal an affair in a heartbeat if you thought it would benefit you, or your marriage...true?

<small>[ February 19, 2003, 12:35 PM: Message edited by: LurkingAbout ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by jimtex1:
<strong>[QUOTE] [b]

How dare you say that any BS who does not inform the OP partners / spouses / etc. is a manipulative liar. Your holier than thou crap is about to make me sick. As a devote Catholic myself, I find your reasoning and judgement to be unacceptable in this forum.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I have to say that I agree 100% with LurkingAbout. One who witnesses a crime and refuses to warn the victim is no better than the perpetuator of said crime and just as guilty. And probably WORSE if the rationalization was nothing more concrete that personal benefit. If thats "holier than thou" then I proudly plead guilty.

How is his reasoning "unacceptable" for this forum? Is anything you disagree with "unacceptable?"

WAT,

I knew about the A's before my wife found out I knew. I came here to the MB site and read SAA before I revealed to my wife that I knew. I also spoke with a counseler before D-Day.

You are correct, my circumstances are different that 20years' but I did not know that at the time. I was worried that my wife would not stop the A's or possibly even leave.

I took SH's advice.....Plan A for as long as you can take it then be prepared to go Plan B. I was so afraid of Plan B but looking back at my original post here at MB I am convinced I would have asked my wife to leave until she felt she wanted to be married to me. As SH suggests, I feel confident that I would have helped her move out and only dealt with her through a third person until she felt she was ready if ever. Plan B can't last forever but I can't make my wife do anything.

I don't know what would have happened but I believed that the A's were so unnatural to begin with that they could not survive on their own merit. I took a gamble and I thought the odds were good once I learned that less than 5% of affairs survive on their own merits. That 5% looked pretty big to me at the time and I knew someone that was part of that 5%. It was very scary and I am fortunate I did not have to go the Plan B.

The above is what I think I would have done but I can't tell you for sure. You are correct, every situation is different.

Lurking,

Where in this civilized jungle is it against the law not to inform the OP partner? I knew what your response would be to my previous post.

So now I am not only a manipulative liar but untrustworthy, selfish, and only sporting beliefs that suit me at the time. I must be conversing with God almighty himself (since you seem to know my kind so well) except I hope God has placed his judgemental horse out to pasture or we are all in big trouble.

Melody, there appears to be room for atleast two on Lurkings horse. Shall we name that horse "Arrogance"?

Jimtex1 quote!
"I do not base all of my life's actions on scripture or church mandates. Frankly, that's between me and God. Judge me as you sit atop your high horse. I hope you have a nice view from there. I have done what I feel was best for my marriage".
Then you don't follow Christian guidelines for your life! Scripture is God's plan for how we should live our lives. The road map to follow.
Of course, anything you might just feel guilty about, you run in, confess to a man, not God! And get absolution. And he's no more ordained to do that for you than any other human being.
When you get rid of the middle man and go directly to God, Jesus christ is the intercessor for us!
follow what you will, when you detour from Scripture, you're in trouble. And that's exactly what we deal with in adultery and lies, deceit and secrets. Nothing is secret from God. remember that!
Too many say to hell with the world and I'll just live in my cocoon!
Glad I can choose my friends. Thank God!
With many like your thinking, who needs enemas!
And yes, I and many here choose the moral high ground! I certainly refuse to wallow in the sewer with the rats!There is enough slime in this world due to inaction!
More power to those who do choose moral high ground!
LouLou

P.S. Jimtex1, go back a few post and you'll find Scripture that is Gods' high horse, not mine.
Hallelujah! Living my life for God first, not some WS or others like it.
You might want to set an example of what is right for your S. Not condone or protect sin in it's worst form.
Lurking and others, I'm on that horse with you because it's a lot more comfortable viewing it from the top. LOL So move over and make room for one more!
LouLou

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by jimtex1:
<strong>Lurking,

Where in this civilized jungle is it against the law not to inform the OP partner? I knew what your response would be to my previous post.

So now I am not only a manipulative liar but untrustworthy, selfish, and only sporting beliefs that suit me at the time. I must be conversing with God almighty himself (since you seem to know my kind so well) except I hope God has placed his judgemental horse out to pasture or we are all in big trouble.

Melody, there appears to be room for atleast two on Lurkings horse. Shall we name that horse "Arrogance"?</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well, that is nice, but does nothing to support your position.

A-hem.... Any one seen 20years?

20years,

Hey, everyone here knows that the decision is yours alone to make. Many people here have had such terrible experiences and they don't like to see other people hurt, including you. Being betrayed by the one you love the most is the absolute worst thing someone can do to you (I'm sure you know that). And anytime people here see what's coming down the road, they want to do everything in their power to stop it.

Everyone's story is the same here, yet everyone's story is a little different. Your's has it's own little differences that you can see but others don't.

I know I suggested for you to tell OM, I still think you should let him know you know and that you intend to fight for your M. You don't have to tell him how or when. Then start Plan-A the best you can. See how that works.

But you are the one that needs to make the decisions and the one that has to live with results. I pray that God gives you the strength and peace to do what he puts on your heart. The the ability to remain faithful to his word as He gives it to you.

Good luck and God bless you.

S&C

I think what this all boils down to is: should the OM wife know and who should tell her.

Now, Jimtex said somewhere that 6 people knew before him and he considers them accomplices. I can imagine the OM's W saying, 7 people besides me know and they are all accomplices. Does that NOT hit home in your heart at all????

Also, several people on here have stated that 20years should tell someone close to that other person so they can tell her. Personally, I don't agree with that advice. To me, that is gossiping and none of that other person's real business.

The story is between 20years, his wife, the OM and his wife. (We'll leave his occupation out of this discussion). To tell someone else to tell her isn't really right. It's not 20years' story to tell someone else for her "benefit". Maybe she wouldn't want anyone to know. I know I wouldn't.

On the night of my DDAY, I called my BF when I was doing more investigative work and uncovered the worst of the lies. Thankfully, she wasn't home. I was ready to blurt and tell and scream and shout and I chose her to be the "ear". Looking back, I am so thankful she wasn't there. She doesn't have to know my dirty laundry. She doesn't have to look my FWH in the eye and be disappointed in him, feel differently towards him. We are all going on vacation in a few weeks and no one is the wiser.

Someone else mentioned something and I had also had the same thought but would really like to have 20years comment on: Are you sure he is a minister???????

DB

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by dazedblonde:
<strong>Someone else mentioned something and I had also had the same thought but would really like to have 20years comment on: Are you sure he is a minister???????</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Why does this matter?

What it really boils down to is he going to participate in and enable the affair or not?

No need to make it any more complicated than that.

WAT