Let me first thank all regular and also the one-off contributors on my threads for their valuable advice. Your input has always been tremendously helpful, and, more often than not, all your advice has been spot on in hindsight. I think we've got a tremendous community here.
Now, after all this time of trying and trying in vain (D-day #1 was 11 months ago), I finally accept that the only way for me to stay sane, to keep (at least some) hope and maybe move the situation towards a beneficial outcome is for me to take myself out of the firing line. The conversation yesterday with S Harley supported my growing conviction that plan B is the flavour du jour now. Steve re-emphasised the addictive aspect of continued contact and that only a small fraction of my changes & 'good' behaviour are shining through. Also, as long as *she* doesn’t come up with a plan forward (apart from: let's see, give me time, or something uncommitted like that), she will not be able to re-connect nor re-commit.
After a couple of days in France visiting a friend, my wife came back yesterday. She brought me a present, was sweet etc. I moved our conversation to the heart of the issue and asked, what her plan was for us, whether she intends to keep up communication with OM. She deflected the issue and answered that "she has to work on herself", "she has to become independent and get a job" etc etc. My answer to that was fine, but isn't this like putting a plaster on your arm when your foot hurts? Her "independence", professional satisfaction etc isn't the issue here, but her on-going contact with OM. She couldn’t answer. At this point I asked her to leave our house. I offered her flight tickets to San Fran (where OM lives). She refused several times, saying she'll only leave the house as a divorced woman. OK I said, so I'll move out then. I explained why I have to do this (to protect myself from being blamed & abused, to protect the remaining feelings I have for her). Later on today I will call our MC and tell him that I'm taking a time-out; that I'm happy to resume the sessions when she commits demonstrably to non-contact. On Saturday I'll look for a bed-sit or studio somewhere in order to move out at the earliest possible convenience.
I'm very sad at this point in time, as it feels like our family is now literally breaking apart. On the other hand, I'm relieved that I finally plucked the courage to stand up and draw a clear line in the sand: No more abuse, no more lying, no more betrayal!

<small>[ February 24, 2003, 06:54 AM: Message edited by: Nick123 ]</small>

Hi Nick.

Cerri, our resident MB coach, has in her sig a quote from Dr Harley which says that when the WS is deciding between the BS and the OP, it's time for plan B. And it looks like his son, Steve, beleives that is the case in your present situation. But remember that unless you have a person or persons, acting as intermediaries between you and your WW in regards to child care issues, you will not be able to implement the no contact rule of plan B. The best thing will be to make it clear to your WW that you will only talk to her if it's an issue relating to the wellbeing of your child. But be warned, WS's are notorious for becoming irate at their BS's when they have gone into plan B, so don't expect that she will be any less different. Afterall, most WS's are cake walkers and plan B takes that away from them. Stay strong.

Nick-

It must be tough to pull the plug and make the decision to move out but know that you're doing the right thing. The love and patience you've demonstrated for your W over the past several months has been nothing short of remarkable but this continued contact with OP left no other options. As Java man mentioned, you can expect some bitterness early on but I think you'll end up in good shape. You seem like a disciplined person so it will be interesting to see how she reacts to having this pillar of support removed from her life. I think she'll come round...Good luck to you and your family and god bless!

Thanks Litchfield & CoffeeMan for the encouragement. I fully agree with your points re. staying in contact (only in case of emergency of daughter). I'm not fussed about her (potential) bitterness - that's exactly the reason why I want to take myself out of the firing line.
The only concern I have is how to handle the financials. You see, I'm lucky to have more than enough dosh, got a nice house in London, all paid off. I can also say that material things, particularly now, don&#8217;t mean a lot to me - probably because I always was lucky enough to have more on the bank account than I could spend. WW however doesn&#8217;t have a job and was/is in this sense fully dependent on me. She wants to stay in the house (see above). How much should I give to her?? Of course, I'll pay whatever is needed for our daughter, but how much for her? What about gas bills, electricity bills, phone bills and such which accrue in the house while I'm not living there??

Grateful for any input.

Nick

<small>[ February 20, 2003, 10:08 AM: Message edited by: Nick123 ]</small>

Are you doing a Plan B properly with a Plan B letter or are you just moving out?

Nick - I've been away for a few days. I know it is hard to go to plan B, but the Harley theory makes sense as the WS has no incentive to move in any direction while they are having their cake and eating it too.

As Chris mentions in his post, I think you need to do the plan B letter to clearly outline why you are doing it and how it will operate (your daughter) and what it would take for you to be back in contact. Clarity is important when you've had none for so many months.

I also wanted to comment on the bitterness on the part of WS when you first do this. The first three weeks for me were so difficult. I wanted to call everyday. Then I got word through his sister that WH was in a full anger/bitterness mode and telling his family horrendous things about me in reaction to my instituting plan B.

I think this is what is best for Nick right now. It will not be easy, especially for you and your daughter. You need to have a plan and include it in your letter for how things will work in terms of contacting and seeing your daughter.

My best to you during what I know will be a difficult time. Running and red wine will get you through yet another bump. I think we need to invent a pub for the BS now. If the WS has the fog and fence, what would the BS in plan B have for a pub?

Nick-

My initial feeling on the finances is that you should provide her enough to get by on and pay the bills but nothing more. The kicker is your daughter being there, otherwise I'd say cut her off completely. Give her enough to pay the bills, provide for your daughter, with a bit of spending money but not so much that she can run around having fun anytime she'd like. Make her responsible and accountable for the cash flow that goes out...Good luck with all of this, you're in good shape for Plan B and "turning out the lights".

chris - will do the letter of course, it will say the same thing I'm telling her verbally now. but first have to sort out the logistics - hopefully will find something over the weekend, then operation "exfil" can start.
litchfield - thanks for your input. had the same thoughts.
USH - yes, it will be hard for me too. even these couple of days when WW was away in France I always thought - when is she going to call me? she did not, and I didn't want to either.

<small>[ February 20, 2003, 10:47 AM: Message edited by: Nick123 ]</small>

Hi there- sorry to hear it's come to this. Finally have a chance to post- did you see my post on your other thread?

You can't force your W to love you, to do the right thing. People CHOOSE to have affairs, knowing that the choice to do so usually results in divorce. People become remorseful in order to save their marriages. For whatever reason, your W has not gotten to that place yet, and may never get there. Or, as some of the other WS on this site, she may wake up. It's hard to say.

All you can do is work on you, look at you. She is not in your control. Plan B makes sense when you simply can not go on in a relationship that is painful and disrespectful. Staying with your wife could well result in all your love being drained away. Hopefully Plan B will be the cold shock that will wake her up from her addiction.

However, do not act in haste. You must plan carefully since your Plan B could set up a scenario that could determine your lifestyle post divorce. I hope and pray that is not where you end up. Staying with your wife will not prevent divorce either- you could well grow to hate her.

Your Plan B must be planned to be effective- to give your wife a taste of what life will be like without you. If you don't plan carefully, she could end up continuing to have her cake and eat it too- to continue to enjoy your financial support and family commitment while she continues her emotional affair.

got to go build a snowman- will post more later.

Thanks for your feedback. Yes, I saw of course your reply on my other thread Espoir - given the new events I thought best to open a new one. Hope the snowman building was fun.

You wrote: "I do think that she would be devastated by a separation." Well, will she? We discussed it again yesterday, again I kept up my mantra of me needing to leave in order to protect myself & my feelings for her and not being able to stay in contact. She mentioned her 'low self-esteem' issues which she first needs to resolve (by getting a job) before she can give any happiness to others, namely me. Pure gobbledygook of course. More interestingly, she also said: Yes, I understand, and I think that's a good idea that you move out ????

.Then she cooked for me, invited me to dinner, tried to make me laugh&#8230;. I ignored her and moved to my room. Hmmmm.

Espoir, you also wrote: "Plan B makes sense when you simply can not go on in a relationship that is painful and disrespectful"

That's what I am feeling now. And it's a terrible feeling, as I truly love this woman, that's why the decision for plan B was/is so hard.

Tomorrow I will get a room or studio somewhere and make a move.

Nick,
I urge you to slow down for a moment. You have waited this long- don't move out in haste. You must think and plan before you do so.

You are right that her excuses are gobbledygook. It's just fog talk.

So you made it clear that you won't accept that fog talk, and you saw her make efforts towards you. Of course they are fairly superficial efforts- designed to mollify you for the moment. But they are efforts.

In preparing for Plan B, Nick, you need to do two things.
1) you must make your goals clear to your W (which can be done in the letter)
2) you have to look at the reality of divorce right in the face. Some go in to Plan B and never come out. So you have to envision that post divorce future if that is where it goes. And your wife must see it too- that is why Plan B is effective.

All this must be done with calmly with thought. That is why reacting quickly and emotionally could be dangerous. Running to the nearest flat may not help. There have been a few dads on this board who have done that without good results.

Figuring #1 is probably pretty easy. Of course it is too painful to be with a W who is still calling her OM. You want to spend your life with a woman who loves you, who wants to be affectionate with you, who is your best friend. Someone you can trust not to lie and cheat on you, and you expect to treat her with the same consideration. Your wife has been telling you, she loves OM, she doesn't know how she feels about you, and her actions make it clear that she doesn't feel loving and committed. You can not force her to do so, and you know that. You need to reflect her feelings back to her on that. Stop trying to get her to commit. I sense it has become a power struggle.

#2 As for Plan B- simply renting a room, while continuing to pay for her lifestyle and co parent, will not do much but back you into a corner. You will bear the burden of the separation- living in an unfamiliar place while she enjoys the comforts of home. That will not be a wakeup call for her.

As painful as it is- you must envision what divorce will be like and discuss it with your wife. I would recommend consulting a solicitor before you discuss it with her so you know your rights.

My H never did move out, but we did discuss the whole scenario. We made up a visitation schedule. I told him I expected him to take the kids every other weekend- he would have to drive down to our house, pick them up and bring them back to his place. He was thinking of getting a place more than an hour from ours. Talking about the details made him more aware of the realities of what he was contemplating. He thought he would pop in and visit the kids whenever he felt like it- I made it clear there would be a schedule that had to be strictly followed. That I would not be hanging around with him being his friend while he visited. Soon my H started thinking he had better get a place closer to us. And when he started looking at places, he realized none were that appealing. Soon he started realizing that the entire post divorce scenario wasn't looking very appealing at all.

I took the bull by the horns and confronted alot of stuff. I would literally refer to OW as our children's future stepmother. My H would deny deny deny that she would ever be that. And I would say, you're leaving us to be with her, and I know she will want to marry you and have kids and a family with you. Saying those things forced my H to envision it. And the picture was not pretty.

If you bolt out the door of your own house, you risk giving away all your rights and power in your M. First, think about your post divorce future. How much visitation with D will you ask for? Would you sell your house? How much support can your wife expect?

I'm afraid if you bolt out the door. You will be begging your W to see your D, and she will use that to her own advantage. You will be paying for your wife to live in comfort while you suffer. What will she learn from that? Is that what her divorce future will be like?

Nick, slow down. You must set up the rules first.

While I don't think it's a great idea for the BS to be the one doing the moving and leaving the children behind, I do understand why you feel this is best for you and your situation.

As for the $$$...do NOT give her the money, YOU pay the bills for the house, have the bills sent to wherever you're setting up temp housekeeping! Do set up a separate account in which to deposit enough to cover food costs plus a small amount extra and either take her off your normal account or else move the balance to a new account in your name only. If child needs something...you buy it, even if W gives it to child! Do NOT give extra money to spouse. She wants to be independent...needs to start NOW! She wants a job, then this should motivate her into doing more then dreaming and talking about it. Do NOT make this easy for her!

Plan B is about NOT supporting the EN's of the WS...that includes $$$. Yes, you do not want to leave her with nothing, that's not right, but she should not have it ohhhh sooo very easy as it is now, she wants a change, she needs to experience all the negatives in that change.

jmho...Good Luck!

sorry that it has come to this Nick.

I agree with Espoir completely and to an extent with what just a wifey says. Pay the household bills direct from your account but.. I would say that not giving her any money will just make her resentful. I come back to Espoir's excellent post. Pay her the level of support that you would have to pay if you were to Dv. And do as Espoir suggests plan all this out in advance - if at all possible. I know though from your posts that trying to plan things with your WW has proved difficult in the past.

From my own experience sorting out our finances when W and I seperated was a very positive step and one that will benefit us hugely if we do get back together. Slightly different in that I am employed and she is self employed (and has a greater earnings capacity). Won't bore you with the details but our arrangement is far fairer than at any time in our M - and we both feel good about it. W feels she is contributing and is responsible. And even with the extra burden of another house we have had a far better, more fun time even with less money for recreation.

Hope it works out.

bowd

Hi Nick.

I'm so sad to see you have to go to Plan B. You are getting good advice from Espoir,Bowd and justawifey. I would guess though that trying to talk through a divorce plan with your wife would be fairly difficult as she is unlikely to engage at all. So maybe write it all down as a letter.She'll read it even if she says she won't.

Good luck, I'm thinking of you and vibing you strength.

Deluded

Espoir, Bowd, Deluded, Just a Wifey, as usual you've been a few steps ahead of me. Why is this emotional stuff so difficult for me? Anyway, was at the property agent's last Saturday, viewed an apartment or two, then back on the High Street, suddenly I was struck by something like an anxiety attack. I mean, I stood like a statue on the street, couldn't move forwards, nor backwards, nor breathe properly for a while. I knew: This can't be right, this just doesn&#8217;t feel right, I can't do this. I was so drained of any energy that I decided to go for a 15 mile run&#8230; after which my head and heart were cleared pretty much and I felt tranquil but exhausted. Went with my daughter to have dinner (WW expressively non invited) and enjoyed ourselves. Didn't go to MC, WW went alone. Yesterday, I again felt very much at ease, relaxed and guess what, we even were intimate. I wrote up all my feelings over the past 10 days or so in a letter to WW&#8230;. How betrayed I felt about discovering again that they are in contact, how we cant heal as long as he is in the picture, why I wanted/had to move out, why I couldn&#8217;t eventually, and asked her a bunch of questions like what is her plan, why should I trust her and asked her to leave, if she wasn't sure, or wants OM - 11 months of fence sitting is quite enough, is it not. Despite I became such a vegetable, I'll keep on pressing these points till I'm blue in the face. Take care, Nick.

<small>[ February 24, 2003, 07:15 AM: Message edited by: Nick123 ]</small>

"I was so drained of any energy that I decided to go for a 15 mile run… after which my head and heart were cleared pretty much and I felt tranquil but exhausted. Went with my daughter to have dinner (WW expressively non invited) and enjoyed ourselves. Didn't go to MC, WW went alone. Yesterday, I again felt very much at ease, relaxed and guess what, we even were intimate."

Nick, I might be wrong here but I think what you've written is a good indicator of just how effective plan B could be for you. You went for this long run and got rid of the anxiety (Hard core exercise is the ticket for whatever ails you, I like lifting myself), then felt at peace and had a nice dinner with your D. Interesting too, you blew off your W for dinner and MC, then she wants to be intimate? I think you can do the Plan B and do it well. JMO, and good luck with whatever you decide.

Hi Nick,

That sounds encouraging,especially the intimacy. I don't know though if you should back down now Nick,have you decided NOt to move out or just slow things down and plan it more carefully? She's doing the fence-sitting thang that I know and doing it so well....one night doth not a marriage make(apologies to Shakespeare).

It's soooo good to see you having fun with your daughter without WW-a few more of those sessions might really make her think.

Deluded

Thanks Litch & Devon&#8230; I don&#8217;t know, don&#8217;t know, don&#8217;t know&#8230;

WW actively *pushes* me out now, you know. She wanted to *help me* find an apartment, already helped to find me a cleaning lady to look after the apartment (!!), she says she doesn&#8217;t want to be with me, and no, she doesn&#8217;t want to leave the house. If I don&#8217;t like it there, (while she sits on the fence, has conversations with OM, and "looks after herself", and "is selfish for a change as opposed to do everything just for me (?)"), then - toooooo bad baby, move out if you don&#8217;t like it.

Basically, the fronts are hardening in that
- She doesn't want to commit,
- She doesn&#8217;t want to leave
- I tried to leave & couldn&#8217;t and, it's just f**ing unfair for me having to move out & leave everything behind, if it's actually WW who leaves & destroys the family
- If I don&#8217;t like the current set-up, then we should divorce. Something I don&#8217;t want to do - we should separate first if at all, I said, with *her* leaving.

I think in her ideal world, I bugger off, am non-existent, unless of course it's about giving financial security, the house, and helping to look after our daughter, and the odd handy-man job around the house. In her rosy world, we would painlessly and instantaneously divorce tomorrow, continue to be merry friends together, with me happily chipping in whatever support she needs, and continue to do all the merry family things all together - we're friends after all, right? Maybe I'm not right & ripe enough - but I simply can't. Maybe I'm simplistic, emotionally not grown-up, whatever, but if comes to a divorce, I never ever ever want to see her & speak to her again. Is that normal?

Clueless & non the wiser, as usual.

(double post)

<small>[ February 24, 2003, 11:33 AM: Message edited by: Nick123 ]</small>

Dear Clueless and None the Wiser

Snap and join the club friend! As I said to Deluded, I go away for a couple of weeks and all sorts of trouble has been brewing back home for people here. I am so sorry to hear of your latest D-day, and the painful decisions you are now facing.

No, I think to feel the way you do is quite natural. I remember H saying something similar to me not long after d-day, and in my merry world I thought we would always be friends. It is now 6 weeks since I saw and spoke to him, and whilst there is still a lot of sadness and upset for me, it is much easier to deal with the whole situation from a distance - I have plenty of friends, I wanted an H and an R not another friendship.

I have to agree with Litchfield too aboutyour W wanting to be intimate as soon as you move the goal posts. I hate to say it, but I think she senses her freedom coming and being able to have her "true wonderful relationship with her soul mate", so can open up to you on a different level - her level of commitment as she sees it.

Take care Nick, keep on running.

Lisa