Can someone explain this "fog" a little bit, how do I know it's lifting?

Fog: The cloudy befuddled state of mind and heart where the 2 don't see each other much less interact with logic. Generally affects the participants of the A (WS and OP). Has also been known to reach out and grab the BS.

Fog causes muddled thinking, an unbalanced attitude, gets issues out of focus and hides acts pf responsibility from the WS. It also causes both the WS and OP to put unwarranted blame on the BS, friends and family. Targets the BS as the enemy. Combines forces with an OP and creates a hostile environment for most who were former associates of the WS. Alienates others (includes their own children). Distorts the facts and feelings. Causes loss of memory. Leads a double life. Promotes a bad character(s). Displays a Jekyll and Hyde personality.

In this fog, the BS never says or does anything that is approved by the WS. The worse the fog, the worse the attack on the BS.

While in the fog, the Ws will display an alien like character (totally foreign to the BS, friends and family). WS babbles endlessly and others stare in amazement at what spews from their mouths. Many a WS are totally unaware of their conduct and angry at the world.

Many fog canidates attend WSU (Wayward Spouse University)where they take an on-line course in fogese. The more fogese is spoken the higher their level of stupidity and their degree in WSU. There is no real graduation from this type of school. RE: Flunking Fogese will mean you are headed back to the land of the real people.

The above is my personal definition of the fog. Hope it helps.

L.

Thanks, that helps. H is definately "fogged in".
I don't recognize this guy as the same guy I fell in love with or even that I loved a few short months ago. Incredible!! Hope to see the fog lift soon and see my sunshine again!!

Hi Learnin,

Your thread topic is simple and a good one. It promotes thinkin' and learnin'.

I just wanted to add a bit more..... If you saw the Dr Phil show about the male WS you saw that the common thread was their selfish attitude, total disregard for their family and all attached (friends, work, responsiblitiies etc.). Those Ws' admitted that they had changed and in some cases could not explain why.

This is important. Because once the BS understands what is real vs what the WS is trying to manipulate the BS into believing, then the BS action and reaction becomes more productive. You are no longer swinging in the wind and pitching in the dark, so to speak.

Often the finger of blame is point and jabbed into the heart of the BS and family.... given enough time, the WS (in some cases with the assistances of the OP - now an accomplice) will even try that blame technique on others. Life can come to a screaching halt real quick because most of the world will NOT tolerate an idiot like the way the WS acts. In many areas the acts of a WS is cause for arrest with potential harrassment and possible assault charges along with other offenses.

Why does the BS put up with it? For how long? How to overcome it and when to know to walk away? Those are thought provoking questions that are dealt with here @ MB. Both the phone counseling, books and questionnaires can help. Posting here and getting comments of those that have been there going through or done that is also a benefit. To get the greatest benefit, all tools listed above need to be used....not just one.

In addition to that, I personally recommend praying for a clear mind and a calm heart. For now the only sane one will be the BS, this will make it harder especially if children are involved. Then build your immediate and personal support group. Friends, children, your pet, workmates, neighbors, children's teacher(s), day care provider, doctor, etc. can all help. Know that your support can come from any area. Don't underestimate the help.

If you have little children, be honest but tactful with them. Do not turn one parent against the other but don't lie to them either. They are NOT the dumb one here. Stand your ground and reassure them of your love and support. In turn they will support you in their own personal way. Even the dog or cat can be a source of support and comfort. One MBer's cat would go and lie on her H's pillow and look for the H. She told her H (aka: WS @ the time) and it touched his heart. Of course, not right away but when he came home he could see how much his A affected even his cats.

Sorry for rambiling.....

L.

So far only my older kids, 16 & 18 have a real clue as to what is going on. 12 yr old. only knows that we are working out some problems. 4 yr old only knows that Mom is upset a lot. I need to have a sit down talk with all of them, would like to include H. Last time I mentioned it he said he just wants to tell them that we are having some problems. (He has threatened to introduce OW to them before so I thought he might want to address the A, which i do not at this point) He'll be home tomorrow, I'm anxious to Plan A like crazy. (But those questions buzzing around my brain....?) I know, I know, hold off for now...I can do this. Just wish I had more time to Plan A, it's hard when he's not home, all I have is daily phone call time.

Orchid:

Can a separation be a sudden cure for the FOG? My WS seems to be out of it; I keep waiting for him to go back in. Today he reconnected with my grandparents whom he had been avoiding for months and states a plan to get one on one with my son tonight. These were his goals for today that he announced to me this morning. It seems unbelievable that he can change so suddenly back into himself. Is the OW still in the fog while he is out of it? Does she seem foreign to him now?

What are your thoughts about the gradual vs. sudden nature of FOG CURE?

mimi, My H. has been gone since jun 30th and has not come out of the fog. Sometimes seem to be worse. He is with the 2nd OW. In my opinion it gave him more opportunity to do whatever he wanted to, and when things weren't going that well with the first OW he went on line and met more women and that is how he got the 2nd OW. and she lives around here so he can see her whenever. Don't want to sound overly pessimistic but it is up to the WS if they want to make the right choices. All the pushing and pulling won't do any good and I am at the point where I just don't want to be involved in the drama anymore. Hope things will get better for you, there are some that come out of it. DBD

Originally posted by mimi1254:

<strong>Can a separation be a sudden cure for the FOG?</strong>

Orchid: In some cases yes. Mimi, your H did a quicker recovery than most. While this sounds good up front for many it is a setup. The positive thing I see in your case is that he is showing what he will do to prove he has value to bring to your family. This is the right thing to do for him to relinquish that dirty WS title and have you bestow the H title back on him.

So far in your case (IMHO) your recovery looks good. Don't get paranoid, just be cautious but happy. He is counting on you to keep him balanced. Remember he may be a bit unsteady at times.

<strong> My WS seems to be out of it; I keep waiting for him to go back in. Today he reconnected with my grandparents whom he had been avoiding for months and states a plan to get one on one with my son tonight. These were his goals for today that he announced to me this morning. It seems unbelievable that he can change so suddenly back into himself. </strong>

Orchid: My advice is don't wait for him to slip, just keep a watchful/cautious eye but don't allow that from stealing the joy of having your H back. Especially since he is showing his value. YOu don't want to discourage him if he is moving in the right direction.

Yes it does seem unbelievable but miracles do happen. Keep praying.

<strong>Is the OW still in the fog while he is out of it?</strong>

Orchid: Each individual controls their fog level. So it is very possible that the OW can be in the fog and turn even worse. Again keep a watchful eye but don't be paranoid.

<strong>Does she seem foreign to him now? </strong>

Orchid: You have to ask him that question. End of last summer (H has been home since April 2001), H asked if I thought the OW was an alien. You know I have been 'trained' to think that way (WAT's alien abduction theory course - LOL!!!), so I answered with an immediate "YES". It kinda shocked both of us that I answered so quickly....didn't have to give it a 2nd thought. Then I explained why and my H agreed. That was another turning point for us.

<strong> are your thoughts about the gradual vs. sudden nature of FOG CURE?</strong>

Orchid: Most recoveries are gradual with a few false recoveries inbetween (at least from what I have experienced and seen). There were a few that recovered quite quickly. Take a look at Knewjie and [H]. Now there is a young couple that once he got his head out of the fog, he quickly came to his senses. I had the privilege of meeting both of them and must say seeing was truly believing. It made my heart glad to see such love after all the pain Knewjie and I shared many nights on the phone and on MB while the A was in full swing. So it is possible.

Hope this helps. Remember to pray for a clear mind and a calm heart. In my case, when the stupidity does rear its ugly head, I now look at my H and say.....'really...you want to go down that path again?' It usually makes him stop and think. NOw that's progress. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

L.

Orchid:

Tell me more about "counting on me to keep him balanced". I know he needs for me to show appreciation for everything he does. Like today he liked it that I said it was great that he saw the grandparents. He also gets into these moods of calling me almost incessantly, thinking of new things to discuss. Is this what you mean?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by mimi1254:
<strong>Orchid:

Tell me more about "counting on me to keep him balanced". I know he needs for me to show appreciation for everything he does. Like today he liked it that I said it was great that he saw the grandparents. He also gets into these moods of calling me almost incessantly, thinking of new things to discuss. Is this what you mean?</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Mimi,

I will be happy to share my thoughts with you but this is learnin's thread and I don't want to take away from her thoughts. So I will answer your question above but if you have more thoughts to share please post it on a separate thread and we can go from there, ok?

Keeping him balanced means (IMHO) showing him where his real time, effort and energy (along with $$$) needs to be focused and spent. Remember you are dealing with someone who was just recently in an out-of-balance state of mind and heart. I am sure you don't want to go there again.

For me helping keep my H balanced comes in many forms. Anger or depression runs rampant in his family but not with me. Yes, I do get angry and frustrated but not in the clinical sense (bipolar disorder is in his family). So for us when an issue arises that may raise his temper, I help keep H balanced by asking him to refocus, help me to help him kinda therapy. See my H does not respond well to just sending him to the doctor for these ailments. Which may be why he does like counselors. Ok well it might take longer but we can work on the same at home. So I read up and apply what I find helpful. If and when I need to pull in a professional, I have my resources.

My H knows I work hard to keep balanced. I ask him to help me and I in turn offer to be there for him. While he may not want the help (he is a proud man) at the momment, I have learned to let him have his cooling time (which is very hard for me since I am a deal with it and move on kinda gal), then the issue is revisited under calmer conditions and dealt with in a much safer manner.

Here is an example of where my H is helping me:

A few days ago, I got momitis (my own term) and got plain ol tired of telling my son to pick up his room. I was vaccuuming and want the floor cleared so I can clean. That is his job. Well he didn't do it and I got upset. I took a trash bag and began to put all that was on the floor in it to throw them away. Toys, a jacket, books, etc. NOt a lot but enough. Well that did not motivate our son. He just sat there and watched. So I moved on to items closer to his heart (his new robot toy he had just built). I put it in the bag and he began to cry. It broke my heart but I was angry that he was so nonchalant. His father stepped in and calmed us both down. I left to let us both cool down and came back to my son apologizing and picking up his room. All was cleaned and the family was still in tact....and happy. My son knew he was being uncaring and I apologized for getting angry. H then said 'see now L, wasn't it good that we talked it out instead of just throwing stuff away?'

What could I say? He was right. He seemed happy to have had a hand in helping us and that is how it should be.

So we can all keep each other balanced. It means communicating and acknowledging each others accomplishments. In some cases it is asking for help.

JMHO,
L.

I'm a wreck today, just nervous, uptight, anxious for today's visit from H. He should be there by the time I get out of work, he's coming to take 16 y.old for his Driving Lisc. Exam, told him i couldn't take anymore time out of work. I think he's staying the night. I'm hoping he'll agree to go out somewhere tonight, I'm thinking a beer and shoot some pool. But here's the thing, that's what he likes to do, not something we ever did together,we never went out much actually, but how he hooked up with OW. She's a pretty good pool player(I've seen her) and they teamed up at their local hangout. I don't really play, but not too bad when I have.(We teamed up when I was down there for a "great" visit in the fall and we had fun, but then for the last game of the night, he picked OW as his partner, and I stood and watched. Later, after Discovery, I was even more humiliated that they did that to me. He claims of course that they were just friends at that point! I want to show him that I enjoy getting out and can get into the things he likes, but am I setting myself up for a comparison type thing or should I just go with it and not over analyze it. He may not even want to go. I don't want to expect too much every time he visits, this can really drive a person crazy! (My weight loss has given me more confidence though, and I don't mind leanin over a pool table anymore!!), so I'm up for a night out, hope he'll go for it. I haven't done a Plan A letter or anything, should I say anything if the evening goes well and we have a quiet moment?

Also thinking, if H doesn't want to go out, I may go out without him, already have a friend available and waiting for my call to go do something, maybe I'll just tell him I'm going to play pool anyways!

Anyone in today? My nerves are on edge, need some feedback. These visits mean so much to me, hoping for the day when I can take them in stride and not get so worked up over them. I think I'm just expecting too much too soon.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I think I'm just expecting too much too soon.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">-Me Too!

I can tell you that wat I have learned from reading SAA and listening to Wat/Orchid/Melody and Mimi time is everything. I unfortunately am trying to keep myself from going to fast. I see signs from her and I get excited....too excited where I have to come here and be reminded to TAKE IT SLOW. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> I truley can say it is getting better....yet I am not sure.... <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" />

ATN

<small>[ February 25, 2003, 11:13 AM: Message edited by: Any Time Now... ]</small>

Yeah, I keep slippin into the same old thought process...just want to wake up in the morning and have this nightmare be over! Thanks for your response...breathin deep...I'll be ok?! 2 1/2 mos. and counting since D-Day but only a week and half of PlanA, ok, so I need to slow down..

Learning:

When I was at your stage, my WS would not take me out if I asked. It would hurt me and I would feel utterly rejected. Now,I continue to let him ask me first. They don't want to feel controlled. Mel/WAT and Steve H. taught me this. So just lay back and play it cool when he comes over. Try to resist the urge to do something. I understand it. I continue to have that urge. I think it relieves anxiety. Now I clean my house. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> My son has wondered what has gotten into me.

Patience! Baby Steps!!!

Uuggh! I have this whole scenario of going out and having "fun" playing in my head. Setting myself up or what? I think I may still casually ask, and then still go out on my own if he doesn't want to go. Will just have to see how it goes and try not to get upset if rejected. That's the name of the game isn't it?

Be Careful!

Asking to go out may be a LB-too demanding.

Going out on your own may certainly be a LB-he needs attention, not an angry response to the rejection.

My WS who is now explaining things to me said that he could only take me in small doses at first. He said it was like you "can't eat a big plate of food after starving yourself". So I let him set the pace.

Just a tip! Hope everything works out. Believe me, the less you do and the more you just sit back and listen, the better.

Mimi, you're advice was sound, but had to do it my way! H didn't stay the night, he left shortly after a nice dinner with 2 of the kids. He of course is still confused by my new attitude since implementing Plan A. I did ask if he wanted to go out, he asks, why would you want to do that, after not seeming like you even liked me for weeks? We talked a bit about where I'm at, the change he's noticed, I explained that for weeks I was a mess and didn't know what I wanted or what I should do. Now I now that I still love him and don't want to give up on the marriage. I said that I understood that we were not able to meet each others EN's because he was away so much and that someone else stepped in because she was more available. Tried to be sooo understanding and explained that I thought with some time that we could make it work, better than before. Some of his comments were, "I just see a cycle of bitterness and anger happening"(if we were to get back together) and I said I didn't want to rehash the past but just wanted to move forward and try to work through the pain and anger. Also, he said that some of things I said & did over the past few weeks were causing him to be bitter, so I apologized for anything I may have said or done, explaining that it was coming from the pain and rejection. (Man, I can't f#@n believe, I'm apologizing for the bitterness I've caused him, sometimes i think this is crazy, but I did it anyways.) He asked if I expected him to go and pack his stuff that night and move back home, that it wasn't that simple, there's someone else involved now and the whole financial thing makes it hard for him to make the $$ we need, he'd need to stay on the road. I briefly touched on that, by saying we could somehow find a way and that I hoped finances wouldn't be the deciding factor in our situation. I tried not to go on to long, he was attentive though, made good eye contact, added to the conversation. Anyways, as far as going out tonight, he said, " I don't want a date" but that doesn't mean I won't change my mind. I'll take that as a baby step in the right direction. Overall, despite being turned down on my offer to go out, I think it went well. Nothing earth shattering but I'll take it for now! Thanks for being there.

Learning:
Start your own thread with a TOPIC like NEED HELP and you can get your own questions answered by the experts here. They will guide you through this step by step. BELIEVE ME!!! Get the help you need here.

You did great tonight. You used the techniques I used and they seem to be working for me.

Hang in there!

<small>[ February 25, 2003, 10:28 PM: Message edited by: mimi1254 ]</small>