Just what it says.

My W asked me to ask this question of the 4um this morning. I think she expects the answers to come back something like:

Marriage: Ownership of another person.
Husband: Owner of a Wife.
Wife: Property of a Husband.

I know, I'm being pessimistic, but I'm also very depressed right now. I did one of these kinds of threads last summer about SF, and though I got good answers to my questions, they weren't what she expected, so she ignored them. I expect she'll ignore these, too.

-Qfwfq

<small>[ February 26, 2003, 08:28 PM: Message edited by: Qfwfq ]</small>

Ideally, a marriage is a partnership ... each partner with an equal stake. Therefore, husband = partner and wife = partner.

Marriage: Partnership, team, sould binding.
Husband: Wife's partner, wife's refuge from the crazy world.
Wife: Husband's partner, husband's refure from the crazy world.

Let just put it like this. By law your pet cat is your property. By law your spouse is your equal partner and companion. There is a huge difference.

She seems to be thinking of marriage as slavery. That's a very ugly outlook, and very wrong too. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

I'm taking the liberty of posting here a reply I got from my sister a while back when I asked her about the difference between being called "H" versus "S":

"I'm a word person. I teach my kids that dennotation/connotation in word meanings are important: they indicate sometimes subtle differences in communicating meaning and tone. Dennotation, the straight dictionary definition, is one thing; then there's connotation, which can be all the hues we add to word meanings, like the definition with personal baggage.
"Husband" is actually quite a cool word. It originated long ago with the Norse and had to do with a free man (vs a slave/serf) caring for his homestead.
"Husband" has a lot to do with that tender, caring, solicitous attention given to wife and household. Except for the above ANCIENT definition, it does not necessarily mean ownership at all.
"Spouse" is more that generic word meaning partner in marriage--interchangeable for either sex. No wonder you balk at it. It is more detached in meaning."

-Qfwfq

<small>[ February 26, 2003, 08:29 PM: Message edited by: Qfwfq ]</small>

marriage = unity to show the world we are together like a puzzle. With just 1 we have gaps, we fill in each others gaps to make a solid partnership to face the world.

husband = a man who protects the wife, gives her a place to lay her head at night, and be herself away from the world with a "testerone" edge.

wife = a woman who is there for her husband, so he has a place to lay his head at night, and be himself away from the world with a "soft" edge.

My response is in that book. I couldn't explain how I felt to my W either. After I found a good example of how I felt, I let her read it. She said she didn't know I had such a good opinion of her, but I do.

A short version is:
I do things that make her happy, and she does things that make me happy. We agree that we will continue to do this always - that is marriage. We agree that we will continue to do it even if it is hard sometimes.

SS

Okay, I'm not going to read the other replies, I'm just going to post my own gut reaction.

Marriage - A sacred union between a man and a woman, for better or worse, 'til death do you part. This union is entered into with God as our witness, and He should (have been)always be an important part of our union and our individual lives. Marriage means putting your spouse first before all others, after God. Marriage means making compromises. It's also the joyful situation of always having someone there at your side, who loves you unconditionally.

Husband - The man who is supposed to treat his wife like the most important woman in his life. The man I once was very proud of and enjoyed singing the praises of the everyone. My best friend at one time as well. Man who should meet wife's needs as best he can. Man who should take the time to listen to his wife. Someone I spend the majority of my time with. My favorite person in the world.

Wife - Should be the same as Husband basically.

Jen

<small>[ February 26, 2003, 05:00 PM: Message edited by: Jen Brown ]</small>

I am going to chime in with my definition too.

To me marriage is the commitment that two people make to share their lives. There is no room for ownership in a marriage. You and Mrs Q are married (committed) to each other. NOT...You and Mrs. Q own each other. To actually think of marriage as an ownership is archaic. Mankind has evolved alot since the days where women were considered chattel.

When she tells you that she doesn't want to be a wife or that she doesn't want to be married, that is telling me that she doesn't want to be committed. To use the word "owned" somehow makes the desire to be out of the marriage more legitimate (in her mind). Do you see what I am saying? Afterall, there is nothing wrong with being committed, but there is sure something wrong with being owned.

The words husband and wife are the titles that are given to the male and female who have a commitment to each other. Title being the operative word to me. It is used as a term of respect with all the emotion that comes with the commitment. Everytime I was referred to as "wife" it made me smile. It is an endearing term. To refer to someone as "husband" does not denote ownership, but his highly ranked place in that person's life.

Spouse, on the other hand, is such a generic term that I declined to ever be referred as such. I was proud to be a "wife" and I was not going to let anyone take that from me by calling me a Spouse (too close to louse). <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" />

TootieQ,
I am sorry that you have reached this spot in your life. I am wishing you all the best.

committed

OK...Here is my simple, down-home definition....

Spouse - Someone I am married to
Wife - Someone I am proud to be married to.
Husband - What I am when my "wife" is proud to be married to me.

Marriage - What we have when we sense, and do our best to protect each other's pride.

My 2cents

HCII

Q-

Husband/wife-
The person in my life that I choose to love and share all of my feelings, emotions, trials, and tribulations with. The man that I turn to when I am the happiest, or the most fearful, and EVERYWHERE in between. The one that I want to be something "better" for. The person that I choose to walk beside me during this crazy journey called life.

Marriage-The spiritual union that we partake with a promise. The roller coaster ride that will bring us to new highs and new lows that we both eagerly decide to ride. The partnership that we develop from individual lives that allows us to grow into more peaceful centered individuals and loving devoted partners. A commitment to sticking to it - NO MATTER WHAT! A commitment to being patient and non-judgemental. Completely open to new things.

Cheer UP! We LOVE you and KNOW that you are a GOOD man.

small hijack...

Brother of Mine...hcii....

I did not get the photos of your house <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

send soonest...ok?

S

Marriage (not to be confused with wedded) is the bond that a man requests of his Bride when they each realize that their Love for each other can no longer be expressed by simply saying "I Love You!" The Respect, the Love, the Devotion, that a Husband and a Wife have for each other is unmatched.

Many couples Wed...but are never truly "married."

A Husband and a Wife are one in the same. One does not domineer the other. Neither is submissive. Each are the foundation to the others existance. (A soulmate)

just my humble, romantic opinion
tagging off <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Okay. I think I'll copy this thread and email it to my W.

What do I think?

Marriage: It's a union of two individuals, based on a mutual love and respect for the other person - including their flaws and "bad" moments. It's for nurturing the growth of each individual AS an individual, not stifling one's individuality to meet the needs or goals of the other person. It's a commitment to the spouse, excluding all others. It's a team, a partnership. Sure, there's family responsibility to our kids, their kids, their kids... and the value and beauty of that role shouldn't be diminished.

I'm not a "perfect husband" by any means. I've made a lot of stupid mistakes. I've missed a lot of "signs" that something was wrong with our M over the years. But I'd sure like to have the chance to work at bettering myself in that role. I hope I get the chance.

That's all I have to say,
-Qfwfq

marriage- a commitment...a choice...a decision backed by action. I wasn't married during the 2 years of our problems, even though we'd never officially divorced. I knew what it was to be married, and I emotionally divorced my husband once I made the choice to no longer honor the commitment I'd made to be his wife.

husband- the male partner in a marriage. Lover, friend, committed and responsible to the marriage, his family and his wife.

wife- the female partner in a marriage. Lover, friend, committed and responsible to the marriage, her family and her husband.

Honestly TootieQ <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> I don't know what your wifes beef is about marriage. She's hardly a wife right now, so she's really not married in the emotional sense. If life is really so cruddy for her, why does she stick around? I think she's just stuck in "poor me" and you're getting the blame for her issues. I've been there done that. Not anyplace I care to revisit.

Good luck Q.

H4F,
I was thinking the very same thing, and it's called "victimland". Here's a very valuable look at that...and how to get out of "victimland":

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Freeing Our Victim Selves
By Colin Tipping
Author of 'Radical Forgiveness, Making Room for the Miracle.'

The victim archetype is deeply ingrained in all of us. It pervades our mass consciousness at all levels. Could you honestly say that you have never blamed someone else for your lack of happiness? For eons we have been acting out victimhood in every aspect of our lives, convincing ourselves that victim consciousness is absolutely fundamental to the human condition and that fear, anger, greed and guilt are the essential components to our survival.

The time has come to challenge that assumption and to ask ourselves two questions. First, what sustains our view of ourselves as victim? Second, how can we transform the self-as-victim archetype so we can have a life based not on fear and greed but on unconditional love and support for each other.

The answer to the first question is relatively clear. The victim archetype is both created and sustained by the Ego - that wholly false belief system that holds that we are separated from God, and that God is angry with us and will one day punish us. The way we think act and feel derives from that one basic idea given to us by early organized religions.

At the level of everyday reality, the victim archetype is woven into the very fabric of life and has been for the last 7,000 years. That's when we began making the transition from small tribal communities based on sharing, cooperation and shared security, to city states and later to nation states. These are based on Competition and separation of groups by class, wealth and other criteria and the rotation of elites. Slavery in one form or another (institutionalized or economic) is a feature of all nation states and there is virtually no shared security. In other words we have created a world of separation, insecurity, mistrust, greed and fear institutionalized into every one of our social systems, including our religions. 9/11 is a stark demonstration of that separation and of the victim/perpetrator archetype in action - just as we have created it.

The second question is more challenging. Changing the social fabric of society will not weaken the victim archetype. It is too engrained. It will just resurface in a different form. No, to break free from such a powerful archetype, we must replace it with something radically different - something so compelling and spiritually liberating that it magnetizes us away from our well-worn and comfortable addiction to being a victim. That something is Radical Forgiveness.

Radical Forgiveness obliterates the belief in separation by taking us beyond the drama and the illusion of our lives and the 'storiesí we fabricate about virtually everything. It enables us to see the spiritual big picture and to know the truth - that there is only Love.

As we awaken to that truth we shall see the true meaning of our suffering and be able to transform it immediately - releasing the perception of self-as-victim. We will understand that, without exception, everything that happens to us is divinely guided, purposeful and for our spiritual advancement.

We shall see that our experiences are exactly as we needed and chose them to be; that nothing wrong ever took place; that no-one was ever victimized and, consequently, that there is no-one to forgive!

Knowing that our life is guided in this way allows us to find true peace - even in the most unpleasant of situations or memories ó and we are released from the bondage of the past. Knowing that our enemies really love us (at the soul level) and are here only to teach us, enables our hearts to open in love and appreciation. As the love is felt and expressed, our so-called 'problemsí simply dissolve and we find ourselves at all times 'in the flowí of life.

True forgiveness then, is not as is widely regarded, 'letting bygones be bygones' while holding on to the idea that something wrong happened. It is letting go of our victim selves, seeing the perfection in everything and awakening to the truth that we are already home in God. That's RADICAL Forgiveness and though it is hard to imagine that it can change the world as it is today, the truth is that it can - one heart at a time.

Colin Tipping, M.Ed., is the author of 'RADICAL FORGIVENESS, Making Room for the Miracle.' Colin is a teacher, minister, counselor and hypnotherapist. He came to the U.S. in 1984 and is co-founder of the Georgia CancerHelp Program and Together-We-Heal, Inc., a non-profit corporation dedicated to emotional/spiritual healing.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

<small>[ February 26, 2003, 10:43 PM: Message edited by: Spacecase ]</small>

All:

I sent the email to my W last night before leaving work. She got the email as I was walking out to my car, and called me. She asked if I was okay. She wasn't very happy about my definitions thread, and I can understand why: My first post was leading and rather negative. But it was how I've felt about our M, or what I feel she believed about it, for a number of years now. I think the respondents were objective, but she felt that I biased all the responses with my initial post. It doesn't matter, except that I will try not to do that in the future, assuming I forward something to her again. She feels differently about M than I thought she does, but focused on the H and W definitions. She says she doesn't feel that they mean "ownership" but focused on things like "dishes, laundry, cleaning" roles as being "expected of her." Yes, I am guilty of falling into the stereotypical roles of my parents, probably through most of our M, but definitely NOT during the past year. And while that is unfortunate that it did happen, it DID, and it's done. I can only change NOW. But it's also unfair to suggest that I did NOTHING during that time. But that's all so off-topic in my view that it isn't even funny. I'm not going to defend my past behavior. I'm not going to compile a long list of things that I always HAVE done for her and my family. I will acknowledge it. I will wait to see if she recognizes my changes (a year after I began them). But most importantly I will be patient for a while longer to see if I'm someone she wants to be with for the rest of her life. If so, great, but there are boundaries. RM is WAY outside the boundaries. If not, then there are still boundaries, mainly regarding time. I don't know how long I can "hold on" just yet, but I intend to find out.

h4f:

"Honestly TootieQ I don't know what your wifes beef is about marriage. She's hardly a wife right now, so she's really not married in the emotional sense."

She's said this herself last night (but she's said so before).

"If life is really so cruddy for her, why does she stick around?"

Because she believes we have a chance at a future together. She doesn't want to "work on the M", she wants to find out of we can have a future together. I can understand this, though I am an old-fashioned "conservative" when it comes to M, and she's clearly a "liberal" (her own label). We'll see what develops. But now that we've started moving, we have to keep moving. No moss!

"I think she's just stuck in "poor me" and you're getting the blame for her issues. I've been there done that. Not anyplace I care to revisit."

I think this is possible, too. But she's not in a place where she could admit that right now. I'd like to talk to her about this someday, though. Bringing it up now would just anger her.

SC:

I really like that quote of yours! I've talked to my W about RF to the limited extent I understand it at this point. Mainly using the example of how her A has spurned me to learn about myself, and so it was neither right or wrong as an event, but a neutral "gift" to me to help me to grow. If she grows and learns from the experience and we grow closer together, then great. But if she has learned that she's better off with RM than with me, then I can truly let go and wish her all the happiness in the world while I continue my journey in search of my own.

-ol' Qfwfq