Hi LIR,
That last one of mine was either 1/2 or 1/3 of the things in my mind that I wanted to get across. They are kind of separate thoughts so I split them up. I don't know how the other will work out because I am still thinking and editing (in my mind.)

...........Yes, ss, you had some "home truths" to say about my H, and although you felt bad about that, your feelings reflect what I have gone through for so many years - what seems like endlessly trying to understand and forgive, then finally getting frustrated and feeling like giving up.

Normally I try to be positive when posting to others. We can do enough negative by ourselves in most cases. I think I wanted to tell you that you are not crazy, that I see what you see and believe you are correct in your conclusions The danger in this is that we can see actions, but we don't always understand the motive, and we can't read thoughts. Sometimes that means innocent actions are taken the wrong way. One of the reasons you are still there is that you continue to give him the benefit of the doubt. I could say more about that, but had better go on.

I AM glad you came back with the thoughts of 6 April - I am going to cut and paste this into a document for myself - I can tell you that I have tried to shift our R around from his "self" centered way of living to your approach, but I have failed. For example, I have asked him to pray with me (I did this before he started having EAs), both on the "everyday" level, and at crisis times, and he refuses every time. It doesn't mean I shouldn't try again, but it is discouraging to fail over and over again.
As I said, that was part of the larger one I had said I wanted to do. Perhaps I will go ahead and put in some of the rest now, though I was going to do it all in one or two other large ones. I know this frustrates you, it does me also. It is like he refuses to grow, and learn, and change - refuses to improve. I wonder how he would feel if he was never able to read another book about music. Never able to practice but did every performance, even new music straight up with no review or practice. If he was never able to discuss music with other musicians, or hear their thoughts or ideas on new exciting things.

It seems to me that this is how he treats your marriage. No MC, no books, gets angry when spoken to about things unless it is to compliment him. What would he say if someone he worked with said " lets try this music in another arrangement." Would he get angry, and stomp off, refuse to talk about it?

Now how much more important is a marriage than a job? I struggle to find a way to help now. Yes, many similarities between W and I, but both of us want to work on marriage as bad as you do, and he seems not to want that. He seems to seek only advice that will support him in maintaining the status Quo, and runs from any differing opinion. That's just background. Again, I agree with you but the big question is what do you do?

I have thought again about you not wanting to snoop. Probably it is because if there were EA # 3, you would bail out, and you don't feel you can leave yet for many reasons. You don't dare look because if your fears were true, staying would be too much and you can't leave yet. I remind you that these are just my thoughts, things may be different
.
If you stay, you can go to a plan B like state where you don't meet his needs, barely speak to him, and so on, but if he cut of funds then you would be stuck, so you continue to try.
It is the continuing to try that I wish to speak about, what has gone before is background, as I often repeat.

If you continue to try, you have to start finding positive things again. Much like the end of your post

- and I have to remember that perhaps because we are so different, he REALLY doesn't understand me in the way that I think is so obvious, and vice versa. So there is mutual intense sadness and frustration on both sides.
As my wife said late one night as we cuddled, "Viva La Difference. "
Now, I know we have discussed that one before, but think on it for a while. We had problems with our differences also, for a long time. Now we are to a point where we can celebrate them. Oh, they still cause problems, that part is better but it hasn't gone away. But are not those differences God given? And is there not a reason for that?

In your case, it is not those differences that is the problem. It is the lack of any common ground you can gather on to work them out and understand each other. We could go into all those differences and what part each plays but I believe mostly it is lack of trust.

You don't trust him - and you have good reasons for that. You don't trust that he is totally up front about this Gal that came to visit, you know there were already 2 EA's. He doesn't share what happens to the money, you don't even know how much there is. People who have had things hidden from them no longer trust the person that did the hiding.

He doesn't trust you. He feels you are trying to control him. You want things he is not used to ( from his own family experiences) and he has issues from trying to hide his EA's from you that contribute to him continuing to hide who he talks to, and where he goes. He may still be hiding things because there really are things to hide. People who have things to hide don't trust anyone.

I can't see any change in your relationship unless trust can be restored. If he is hiding things for real reasons, he cannot trust you at all, and he won't make any progress. You cant' trust unless you know for sure that nothing is going on. If you knew that he really wanted to try, and that there is no longer any EA or any thing even close, you could go on for quite some time.

You are right, though - when you look for the negative, you find it - and I am indeed looking and finding negatives. After so long, I am finding it difficult to feel anything, or see anything positive about him. That doesn't mean it isn't there, but the one BIG negative - dishonesty - seems to cancel out all other positives.
Did I just use up all those words saying what you already knew?
Probably no chance for you unless trust is restored. Trust can't be restored until you know nothing is going on. I believe you will also need him to become an open book as far as who calls, and going out.

I am not saying (today) that all is lost, though - I tried last night to tell him how I feel, and today, he is more "there" ............... But today, he is friendlier with me - I would say he is trying. I think this gives me some hope.

Hope is good. No hope = no chance. When you say that the dishonesty cancels out all the good, I believe no trust = no hope = no chance. You already know that unless trust is restored none of the rest means anything.

ss -so many of the things you say about you and your wife sound so much like us Maybe there is still hope. But I do feel I need to take care of the practicalities and not trust in hope.
I agree that you need to prepare for any outcome. You need to know what your options are and be ready for what may happen.

So what do you do?
Hold on to those good signs as hope that he does love you, and that trust may someday be restored. Be glad ( since you are staying) that there are some good days. You can have a lot of control over how good they are by how well you can maintain happiness in the midst of the bad emotions and feelings that come. I want to come back and talk a little about who you are, and why you are here - your mission in life. It is intended to give you some strength. I wish I could do it now, but running out of time. That's the rest of what I wanted to post.

Tomorrow we have out of town company coming, and Saturday we have a wedding for my oldest son. I don't' know when I will get back to finish. I hope this helps some. Can you see your options more clearly? Are you where you want to be for now?
Are there things you ought to change as you continue?

I will be back when I can.
I admit right up front that you had me worried last time because you were away so long. But please, please, never post when it is not wise to do so. Your family always comes first.

I feel like telling you reasons why I come around.
Luke 10: 27-37 - especially 37
and Luke 22:32

Especially Luke 22:32.

SS

<small>[ April 10, 2003, 07:10 PM: Message edited by: still seeking ]</small>

Hi there everyone -

I've been away for a few days - we have been very busy at home - with work and H and both boys, now a houseguest here to stay, so I haven't been able to get to the computer. Thank you so much, ss, for taking the time to post. I hear what you are saying - trust on my part is still a long way off, and that is what we need to rebuild if we are ever to have a marriage which is truly fulfilling for both of us.

I have to be brief, so this is just a check-in - but my general feeling is that H is feeling "better", more relaxed, now that the heat of counselling is off him. He has been a lot more affectionate (although no s** yet). The other day, he woke up early - he had to get up before me, and while I was lying there with my eyes closed, I felt his hand stroke my forehead. That told me that he does indeed love me. The question is - can we rebuild something that fulfills both our needs from the remnants of love we have left for each other.

My son told me Daddy asked him where he thought I would like to go for a summer holiday this year, which really startled me. I told him the day before yesterday that I did not want to go with him to Germany this summer - that I didn't like to go with him when he was working (I have stayed home before for this reason). I told him it would be OK with me if he wanted to take the boys with him, even if I didn't go. He said that he would be working, and it would be hard for him to watch them, to take care of them on his own. So immediately he realized that without me along, it would be difficult for him. But he hasn't said that he won't take them. Still, if he does go alone, then that makes more reason for us to have a genuine holiday as a family - in other words, his work trip to Germany won't substitute for a real family holiday. The other good thing is that he wants to take our savings money out of the bond where it isn't earning much interest, and put it into two ISA's - one in his name and one in mine - so that's kind of a step in the right direction as to things being equal, at least as far as money in savings goes.

Also, on Sunday, I got a chance to look at his cellphone. I didn't dare read the unread messages, which were from someone I didn't recognize, but OW2's numbers were no longer in his address book, and there were no calls to or from "OW3". I hate snooping, though, so I will probably try to stay away from doing that. Also, as an interesting note, we have a friend staying with us (he's actually OW1's father) - and he met "buddy" on Sunday - his comment was "What do you think Buddy is doing there (at the monastery)? He seems to me to be a bit of a loose chip - doesn't really profess to anything much, does he?" Telling comment, I thought - this friend is intelligent and quite a devout Catholic - so he picked up straight away on "buddy"s strange (at least IMHO) lack of Christian values and the sense of ambiguity about his purpose in life. He professes to have a vocation to be a Christian monk, but there is something lacking there that our friend can see straight through.

I have been thinking a lot - and I have to confess, worrying a lot, about the SARS virus, since I am an "at risk" person, lung-wise - I had a pulmonary embolism 6 years ago, and have scar tissue in both lungs which is susceptible to inflammation. Thinking about that makes me feel even more that one should live each day as if it were your last - it helps me to try harder to focus on the good things, rather than the bad.

I have to go now, but will be back to check in as best I can.

Take care, everyone
LIR

Hello again -

The weather here in the UK is FANTASTIC! What can I say? Everyone in the UK knows what I mean - sun and warmth - what a joy! Apparently its back to normal - cool and "breezy" for Easter and next week, but we are loving it while we can.

Maybe its the weather, but we have had some good days - is it "woman's intuition"? I don't know - it just seems like I am seeing the husband I haven't seen in more than two years - kind, helpful, more relaxed, working on his composing in a positive way now - he is spending a lot less time on the internet, he has left his cellphone around unguarded, he called me three times today from his car, once to tell me about some nice music that was on the radio, he is flirting with me again, and smiles when he comes in the room - he doesn't have that "jazzed-up" feel about him, the "charge" of excited happiness that he had last year this time when he was into his EA with OW2. He seems more "normally" happy, if you know what I mean.

Because of the way that he has been genuinely affectionate, I feel for the first time in a long time, like I can start trying to meet his EN's again. I am trying just to celebrate the good things of each day right now, and to turn my mind away from worry and fear. I know I will have more times when I may start to worry again, but it feels for the first time in two years like there may be real hope.

We had my H's friend to stay these last 3 days - he is OW1's father, BTW. He is a wonderful guy and I'm glad he and my H are still friends. (OW1 is his oldest daughter and she is now firmly attached to her long-term BF). Anyway, at one point, over dinner, we started talking and joking about giving up things for Lent (we are all Catholic) - and my H's friend started jovially listing his own faults - Sloth, Envy, Greed, Pride - and we got off on to the subject of our own faults - H didn't volunteer any of his faults, and our friend teased him and then said he would do it for him, but couldn't come up with any. H squeaked out of that one, but friend came back to him later when they were washing up (both of them washed up!), and said he wasn't going to let him get away (I don't know if friend know about our current problems) - H then kind of quietly said "Well, dishonesty." He didn't elaborate and friend didn't push him. But I heard it and it meant something to me that he could say that, even though friend didn't know what he was referring to.

I just want to say, to everyone who has helped me here, and especially to you ss, that I cannot tell you enough how much you have helped me. I still have hope that our marriage can work, and I am going to keep trying. The most helpful thing I can do right now is to try to stay focused on the positive, and take each day as it comes, looking for the positive in each day. That's the only way one day can build into days, then weeks, then years. I may not come back to post as often, because I am going to try to be more independent, but I will be lurking, I am sure!

ss - you asked about my counselor. I have to confess that I am also disappointed. I have had some time now to think about it, and I feel let down by her. I think she could have forseen the dynamics of what happened - that my H would not accept that she was unbiased, and it doesn't seem like she thought about what would happen in that event. It may be that the force of his anger frightened her, I don't know - but it seems to me that she had a very traditional approach - she relied on "feelings", and was there to facilitate "getting in touch with our feelings" - but she was not proactive about how to deal with violence, or a wayward spouse. I would say, on balance, that the kind of counselling she offered both me alone, and to both of us, did not do much good. I can now see what people mean when they talk about the Harleys being experienced in infidelity - I think many marriage counselors are not equipped to deal with the dynamics going on between a couple who are struggling with these kinds of problems. I am not very good about expressing these thoughts - I have read it said a lot better elsewhere on this board - maybe it was from jante or Deluded (maybe it was from uk-er over on the Recovery board)- that marriage counsellors in the UK tend to take a "no-fault" approach, which in the end, helps neither party.

I think we both feel a certain relief about not going to counselling anymore - it could have worked, and maybe we will try again, at some time, but for now, it wasn't constructive.

Have to go now, so will sign off, but also want to wish everyone a happy Easter.

God bless,
LIR

LIR

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

I just sent you an e-mail.

Good for you.

Lisa

Hello LIR,
This is the last ( of three parts) that I wanted to do. I am not going into as much depth as I was going to, and I won't quote the chapter and verse because you seem to study as much as I do, and you will probably know the things I reference. ( But please ask if I am not making sense.)

We have talked about the refiners fire before. You know that we are to become purified, and that hardship is a necessary part of that. You will know from the book of Revelations that there was a war in Heaven and Satan was cast down to earth. He seeks to destroy us that we might not reach our potential. We also existed before, and we learn from reading about Jeremiah that we were trusted there, and sent here in order to accomplish a great many good things, not just to have fun and enjoy life. We choose here what we will do, and in so choosing, we decide what we will become. We become a sum of the choices we make every hour, and every day. If we make good choices, God's grace enables us to become far more than we could ever become on our own, and the fire strengthens us, and we do become pure, as Christ is pure. In a way, it is difficult, but it is simple ( as defined by JL, but that is another story.)

We simply obey his will and we are not burnt up in the fire. The difficult part is that sometimes it is hard to know exactly what that is. When a spouse is unfaithful, it is best to leave, or stay? Also it is hard sometimes to do the work when we want so badly to rest. Work is after all, work.

When I said I wanted to discuss your mission in life, I can't say that I know what it is. Abraham was an example to everyone around him all his life. Respected as he traveled because of his integrity, he was given a major test with his son Isaac, and he passed. Joseph was sent to Egypt as a slave but he lived to save Israel as a nation because of his integrity. I wonder if he counted the cost as he spent years in prison for something he didn't do. I suspect he sometimes had doubts, but he lived up to his potential. Perhaps one of the best examples is Esther. Many of her doubts are recorded for us to read about. She never knew what the outcome would be. She looked at her options, chose what she thought was right, and did that, even though it could have meant her death. She also saved her nation because she made the correct choices.

I don't know what your mission here is. It could be that you are meant to raise two boys up to be good men. It could be that you have something to write. Perhaps it is a small thing and you won't even notice it as you go through life, but you will be in the right place at the right time to make a difference for someone.

You already know the tools you need to get where you want to go. Faith is first, and charity for others is the next.

It may be that what is happening to you right now will be your greatest test in life. I marvel at how far you have come on such a difficult road. I admire you for your choices. Yours has not been an easy road. Perhaps you have felt as he did on the road to Jericho, before Gethsemane, and Calvery.

I don't know what you need to do, and you don't know what you need to do in every case. I have great confidence that you will choose wisely, and do what is best. If the pressure seemed to be more than what is necessary for the run-of-the-mill, ordinary refiners fire, it just may be that it is, and for a reason.

I am very happy that you are doing well right now. That' s what I have been praying for.

I may not come back to post as often, because I am going to try to be more independent, but I will be lurking, I am sure!
I don't think you need as much help. I can see a person that is more sure of her ability. I see less bitterness, less fear.

There is more happiness, more lift in your voice, more sunshine in your heart.
Keep it up.

SS

<small>[ April 18, 2003, 06:32 PM: Message edited by: still seeking ]</small>

Hello -

First of all, I want to thank you, ss for your last message. I have to tell you that last February, after D-day2, when I went to talk to one of our parish priests, he said that he was sure that I would find the support I needed to get through this - and I would just like to say that I feel blessed to have been able to receive the benefit of the support you have offered me here.

I have not been able to post because I have been home with my children and H for Easter break, but I am now back at work.

I am struggling to find the words to express myself lately - but I will try.

I feel that my H and I are still willing to stay together, even though we are no longer in either MC, or IC. Yes, I still have the same concerns about some of his behaviour - leopards don't change their spots overnight. But I see (and feel) more willingness in him to be respectful, loving, and caring. You mentioned the refiner's fire again, ss, and I have had thoughts lately of being willing to be a part of whatever it is that my H needs to learn in life, even if it is painful for me to go through. I am not through looking at myself either - I also have things that need to be worked on in myself, but I think I can honestly say that MB has helped me grow as a person - helped me to recognize some of my own faults and consciously change my behaviour and the way I look at things.

Another thing that is going on with me is a sense of quietness. I feel like I have been on the most horrendous rollercoaster ride for the last two years - shock, pain, sadness, horror, depression, hope, disappointment, fear, anxiety - up and down over and over again - and for some ODD reason, I feel like we have both managed to struggle off that rollercoaster - we are still having some ups and downs, but its not like before - things just feel a lot more "normal".

I have to admit that I also feel some sense of failure - the failure of marriage counselling, and the continuing sense that my H has managed to go on with his marriage without ever talking to me about anything that has happened to us, or any of the issues that are a concern to me. I still do not know why H does not communicate verbally, or how to get him to do this with me - it may be that he never will, and would rather part company than feel forced to do so. So I remain dissatisfied in this respect.

I am also mulling over my last session with my IC. I have to say that it does bother me. Her words to me as she opened the session were "I have discussed the situation with my supervisor and I have decided that I cannot continue to counsel you, given what has happened, because I would feel that I would be COLLUDING with you." I said "Do you mean that given what happened, in that my H exploded at you and accused you of being biased towards me, that you can no longer remain objective?" She affirmed this. I accepted this at the time, but the more I think about it, the more her wording disturbs me. I don't think she said "I would appear to be colluding with you." I think I remember she said "I would feel like I was colluding with you." To collude means to conspire against someone. Now, I showed her the e-mails I had snooped from my H's private e-mail account because I needed to talk to someone about their content and what they revealed. But looking back, I am not sure why she ended counselling with me - was it because I had shared with her material which "belonged" to my H, and that this challenged her own integrity? It sounds like it to me. I don't know what to think about this. But it brings up the question of snooping - many, many MC must confront this issue when one of the parties is involved in an affair. Did I just get a counselor who did not have the experience to deal with the issue of infidelity, let alone the issue of abusive behaviour? She did say that my H was "extremely verbally abusive" to me, specifically, in our last failed joint session. Was it that she just got spooked and felt personally threatened by him? It feels to me like she just got out when the going got tough. If that's the case, I think I'm better off without her, and better off on my own.

I have to go now. I will be back, though, but I am trying to put what I have learned into practice, so I will try to stand on my own two feet more. I am very grateful to everyone who has supported me here - very grateful.

LIR

Hi LIR,

I am happy you are doing better.

................its not like before - things just feel a lot more "normal".

I sit for a few minutes and just smile, it is truly a good thing. I know there is both good and bad, I don't worry you will fall apart. I don't worry you will fall at all.

I have thought more about your health problems. I have suffered pleurisy myself, and it is very painful. I have broken some ribs, broken two arms and a leg, and lots of other stuff ( I was a boy in my youth, and did lots of dumb stuff) but I don't think any of it was as painful as the pleurisy was. I know you fear the SARS virus with all your other problems, but don't worry. Those kind of things are not things you have to worry about. Lets see, how about Matt 10:28 - and also verses 29-31 apply. We need to take precautions, and guard our health, but worry most about what matters most. I think you are, and I think you can relax about those other things - at least a little.
I wanted to bring this up, because I intended to comment on it back when you mentioned it, but I never got to it.

I am glad you are more at peace, and working things out. I know I worry too much, and I was afraid H wouldn't come around - or at least not in time. I truly hope he does, and soon.

You spoke more in your last post about your counselor. I believe it was probably lack of training in dealing with abuse and infidelity. Looked at from one side, it was good. She felt she was not able to handle what was going on, so she backed out of it. Some go on and on and you continue to pay them when they do no good. At least yours was honest about it. I don't think the reason she gave tells the whole story. It does look like you can do this by yourself now, with a little celestial help.

I believe you will continue to get support when you need it most. He CARES about sparrows, but you are his daughter, and he loves you as no mortal father can. You'll get help.

I don't have any big posts waiting to get out right now, so I'll go and look in on you again later.
SS

Dear ss -

I'm checking in to let you (and everyone who has followed my thread) that I am OK. I have tried twice to reply to you, ss, but haven't been able to finish - I get something typed up, and then I've been called away, which I've felt bad about, since I should have got back to you sooner and thanked you for keeping up with me. I'm sorry if I hurt your feelings by not replying soon enough. Please know that I always appreciate the time you take with me, especially when there are so many others who need help.

Again, I am at work, so I have to type this on my break, and I won't have time on the computer at home at all this week - this is one of the reasons why you hear so little from me these days work is busy, home is busy, family is busy - my VEGETABLE GARDEN is busy! LOL I wish it were more busy - I have planted seeds and then not watered them - no slacking allowed with vegetables - I will have to mend my ways!

I am glad you are more at peace, and working things out. I know I worry too much, and I was afraid H wouldn't come around - or at least not in time. I truly hope he does, and soon.

This is really the heart of the matter, ss - as usual, you pick up on the correct state of affairs. *I* am more at peace, and working things out. I would say that H is working on things, too - although there is still "stuff", which I could talk about. But it seems like, I look at the "stuff" and I have decided to turn away as best I can. I think its along the lines of BrambleRose's acceptance - I accept that there are things I cannot change, that are not in my power to change - I accept that I do not have control over other people - I accept that I am responsible for my own life, choices and happiness. I look at my H, and although I don't like some of the things I have mentioned before - his "privacy" issue, the way he deals with money, his lack of communication - i.e. his refusal to communicate in a meaningful, open way with me, and I think - well, its up to you to change. I am sad that he has not seen the value in changing, but I realize that threatening him with losing me will not make him change either.

So I am trying to go on with my own life, and I am giving to him what I can. I know that he loves me - ss - one of the greatest gifts you have given me is to help me to change and let go of resentment, so that I am actually ABLE to see that my H DOES love me - but that he doesn't express it in the way that I would always like. You have helped me to see my H through different eyes, instead of through the filter of my own need and resentment.

This journey is not easy - I mean going forward with him after all that has happened is not easy - he is still private, and can be irritable. But he is also trying now to respond to me, where before he didn't, and he is also showing more appreciation, and has NOT been aggressive. It may be that this trauma has affected him in a positive way that he is not able to talk about. I think we are more patient with each other.

You spoke more in your last post about your counselor. I believe it was probably lack of training in dealing with abuse and infidelity. Yeah, I have to say, my counselor's handling of the experiment to counsel both of us has left a bad taste in my mouth, and caused a lot of doubt of myself - a lot! Very painful for me. It thrust me back into isolation in a psychological sense. I have been through emotional hell these last two years, and it was not a hell of my own making - I did not imagine my H's emotional infidelity, nor his violent reactions to my pain. I started to try to address the issue of emotional and physical abuse in my marriage, to try to bring these issues out into the open. But I feel she just dumped me and I am still not sure why. I am disillusioned by the counselling experience. I have been mulling over my experience here at MB, and I feel that it is only here that I have been able to talk freely and get honest, reasonable feedback, on both my feelings about things, my own actions, and events that were happening in my life. A counselor does not help you evaluate events in the way that people on MB do - it against their professional code of practice to show partiality. But this is exactly what people who are suffering the pain of ongoing infidelity, and/or abuse, actually need - help sorting through what is ACTUALLY happening to them, not the lies which are going on all around them. And then the help to deal with the pain of dealing with lies and betrayal. I have to say that I did not find this in counselling - I only found that kind of help here. Maybe that is the fault of the counselor, I don't know.

What's happening with me right now is that I sort of feel like I'm watching the dust settle - every once in a while a little dust devil crops up and tries to stir up a storm, but it doesn't seem to amount to much. I am starting to take stock of myself and get on with my life - I have neglected a lot of things and I'm trying to get back to those. For the last few weeks I have been feeling the strange absence of that heart-wrenching pain - it feels very quiet after the rollercoaster stops, and my legs are a bit wobbly. That's really it - I'm getting my landlegs back again.

I could go into some things - like OW3 (I think there is something there - maybe just something small, but something)- an "argument" we had over my birthday this year, etc. - worrying about "buddy"'s influence. But I think I will leave all that for now, because for now, I think I can - I'm not getting wound up about it - if I do need to talk about it, I'll come and ask for a "professional" MB opinion - the best kind!

I've got to get back to work now - my boss will come back soon, so gotta go!

I wish I knew who you were, ss - someday I'd like to be able to thank you - but the anonymity here is what makes help like what you provided for me possible.

Take care,
LIR

Hello again,
I can see that life in the fast lane continues for you ( and for me too, just so you know.)

I'm checking in to let you (and everyone who has followed my thread) that I am OK. I have tried twice to reply to you, ss, but haven't been able to finish - I get something typed up, and then I've been called away, which I've felt bad about, since I should have got back to you sooner and thanked you for keeping up with me. I'm sorry if I hurt your feelings by not replying soon enough.

I have said before that I don't know how you gals get everything done, flylady notwithstanding. I don't think hurting my feelings is something you need to worry about. I believe it would be very hard for you to do. I am much more concerned about your relationship with your family, especially your H, than I am with how often you post.
Remember that there is no way for us to ever get done all that we need to do. We have to choose, and that is part of the refinement. It's supposed to be that way.

Always put first things first.

Please know that I always appreciate the time you take with me, especially when there are so many others who need help.
Thank you very much for your kind words. I am not sure who gets the most from this, but I feel blessed to learn here.

Again, I am at work, so I have to type this on my break, and I won't have time on the computer at home at all this week - this is one of the reasons why you hear so little from me these days work is busy, home is busy, family is busy - my VEGETABLE GARDEN is busy! LOL I wish it were more busy - I have planted seeds and then not watered them - no slacking allowed with vegetables - I will have to mend my ways!
I didn't think you had to water in the UK! My tomatoes are about a foot high, the zucchini and squash are about a foot wide. Other stuff is sprouting. Busy doesn't begin to describe it, does it. Like I said, first things first.

I would say that H is working on things, too - although there is still "stuff", which I could talk about. But it seems like, I look at the "stuff" and I have decided to turn away as best I can. I think its along the lines of BrambleRose's acceptance - I accept that there are things I cannot change, that are not in my power to change - I accept that I do not have control over other people - I accept that I am responsible for my own life, choices and happiness. I look at my H, and although I don't like some of the things I have mentioned before - his "privacy" issue, the way he deals with money, his lack of communication - i.e. his refusal to communicate in a meaningful, open way with me, and I think - well, its up to you to change. I am sad that he has not seen the value in changing, but I realize that threatening him with losing me will not make him change either.

You can stay, or leave. As long as you choose to stay, you can work for improvement with love and faith, or you can bide your time. I am so glad you are doing this right. I don't know everything, and there may be more you can do, but if so, you will find it. Remember that ss has problems in his M too. We are further along than you are, but on the same path. My W still cries, still hurts, and so do I some days. Marriage Building is a life long journey, not a 4 year program like college. We joy in our improvement, and we take joy in the journey itself. In many ways, life is indeed very, very good. You can live that part too, along with the work, and the busy parts.

So I am trying to go on with my own life, and I am giving to him what I can. I know that he loves me - ss - one of the greatest gifts you have given me is to help me to change and let go of resentment, so that I am actually ABLE to see that my H DOES love me - but that he doesn't express it in the way that I would always like. You have helped me to see my H through different eyes, instead of through the filter of my own need and resentment.

That part is hard to explain. How can someone that loves us hurt us so? I think you already understand it. How was I so blind myself? Why do I see now? Why did it take so long? I wish I had all the answers.

This journey is not easy - I mean going forward with him after all that has happened is not easy - he is still private, and can be irritable. But he is also trying now to respond to me, where before he didn't, and he is also showing more appreciation, and has NOT been aggressive. It may be that this trauma has affected him in a positive way that he is not able to talk about. I think we are more patient with each other.

Continue to praise him for the things he DOES DO RIGHT. Be specific.
"Thank you for taking me on a date, it makes me feel loved when you take me out. "
"Thanks for helping me with the dishes, sometimes the days seem so long, and it makes such a difference when you help out."
Again, just examples but don't let up on this, it helps as much as anything you can do.
Well, almost anything. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

I am disillusioned by the counseling experience.
I can see from reading posts that there is a wide gap in the ability of counselors to help people. Remember also that your father knows what you need, and he'll help. You are not alone, and I think you know that now. Can you feel it? I hope you can.

What's happening with me right now is that I sort of feel like I'm watching the dust settle - every once in a while a little dust devil crops up and tries to stir up a storm, but it doesn't seem to amount to much.
You don't know how glad I am to read this. Words can't convey some feelings. You have a way with words too, did I ever say that? I hope that book inside of you gets out someday.

...........am starting to take stock of myself and get on with my life - I have neglected a lot of things and I'm trying to get back to those. For the last few weeks I have been feeling the strange absence of that heart-wrenching pain - it feels very quiet after the rollercoaster stops, and my legs are a bit wobbly. That's really it - I'm getting my landlegs back again. Again, I am happy for you. I hope you continue to show improvement. I talked to my W about you again last night. I told her you felt like things COULD work out and you wanted to stay with it. She was quiet for a time, and then she said, "GOOD." I asked her if she had any advice and she said: "no, you are better at that than I am."

I could go into some things - like OW3 (I think there is something there - maybe just something small, but something)- an "argument" we had over my birthday this year, etc. - worrying about "buddy"'s influence. But I think I will leave all that for now, because for now, I think I can
LIR, I admire your growth. You do need to deal with things in your mind, don't let them BUILD UP until they BLOW UP. Can you dismiss them daily without them coming back later?

If you don't know, Jante said her good-byes a few days ago. She said she did what she came for, and needed to get on with life. I have a great respect for both of you, you have both taught me about courage, and faith, and you both have bottom, for what it's worth. ( I'll explain that last one if you wish, it's probably a very local term.) You know, I can't help but think she will do really well.


I wish I knew who you were, ss - someday I'd like to be able to thank you - but the anonymity here is what makes help like what you provided for me possible.
Someday a friend will introduce us. Until then, I'm just still seeking.

SS

<small>[ May 09, 2003, 04:39 PM: Message edited by: still seeking ]</small>