My W came over tonight. Hooo boy did the relationship talk fly. Seems we'd both been waiting to talk and had a LOT to say. The good news? We were both honest, open, and civil with each other for the THREE HOURS of talk we had.

The bad news? She wants the divorce ASAP.

Get ready for the longest post ever. Read if you dare.

Well, I got forced totally off the game board tonight during W’s visit. Totally off. I did the best I could with the cards I got dealt, but I think what I'm learning here is that I waited a bit too long to start Plan B. If I sign off on papers, though, the good news is this – They don’t go effective until 90 days. So I really am gonna be doing a 3 month Plan B anyway, which is all I really wanted to do anyway. So read on, I think I handled the situation pretty good, and boy did I ever learn a lot. Get ready for the ride. This is my longest message EVER. You will be sorry you opened this.

W’s visit started out innocently enough. She came in, had some chips, and we chatted a bit as we usually do about her work, etc. I was in the process of cleaning the fish tank and she helped me do that to get it finished up. This probably took about 20 minutes or so. During which, I made the usual friendly small talk, told a joke or two, talked about my vacation. Same as always for the past visits.

W was lingering and I couldn’t tell why. She was looking through my DVDs, talking about movies, TV shows, etc…I’d soon find out it was because she was itching to start a relationship talk and just didn’t know how. Then, the bomb dropped…BOOM! She tells me she just bought a new camera to replace the one I wouldn’t let her have (this was a big LB I did when she moved out, I kept the camera I gave her as a Christmas gift last year, different story but obviously one of the big things that she has stored away as a reason she never wants to be married to me again!) I told her that not giving her the camera was a mistake, and that all she had to do was ask for it, and then offered it to her. She no longer wants it (just on principle, she said) but told me I had plenty of chances to offer it to her if I realized I was wrong. Oh well. So that led to me walking over to the couches, and she followed, and yes, this was the start of a 3 hour relationship talk.

The theme was basically that she wants the divorce and is tired of playing games, wants me to give up my silly hopes, and wants to get on with her life without me. Divorce was always brought up by her saying she “wants her name back” (She can’t seem to use the word divorce, “I want to get my name back” has become her synonym for divorce, which for some reason she thinks evil to say I suppose). She said she is tired of being called by my last name and wants her own back. That hurt a bit.

Really, the entire conversation was FULL of honesty and openness. Had lots of chances to tell her how hurt I felt by everything that was going on. Let her know that I was doing well for myself, and learning, but still hurt by what she was doing. I told her how I felt and validated her feelings, she did the same with me.

Again, I realize that some or all of what was said during this sit-down could be fog talk, but she was being very open with me, and often very tearful during the conversation, so I am pretty sure that most of this was how she was genuinely feeling, not feelings that were blinding her due to OM.

And speaking of OM, yes, it’s finally in the open. – It’s in the clear. Not once was he mentioned by name but he was finally brought up. She admitted she had been seeing him since she moved out, and all along. Regarding him, she tells me he is her “shoulder to cry on”, and that he is a great listener and still, even though she cries to him every day about how depressed she is and what a horrible person she feels like. She said she talks to him about me. She tells me that he also feels guilty himself. I feel a lot of that is due to the fact she is still married. Maybe that will go away if we are divorced. I dunno.

She talked about places she was going with OM that she used to go with me, and how she was worried she would run into me there. She said she worries every time about it. I asked her if she was worried of running into me just for her own good, or because she felt bad about it. She said she felt guilty about it and that it would be “a bad scene”. But she said all those places that I introduced her to are places she loves, and she will always think of me when she is there. I told her that I was worried that her going those places with OM would erase her memories of what she and I had there. I told her it hurt to visualize them together.

I guess what I worry about this is, will this conversation between her and me alleviate some of that guilt? I think her guilt and her feelings about herself may be what causes the A to end. I’d hate to think that my being open with her finally is going to make it easier for her and OM. Certainly now that it’s out that she is dating him she won’t be AS scared to run into me somewhere, though I’m sure she’d still like to avoid it.

A couple of times she told me that there is no one here that knows her better than I do. That I know all her secrets, I know everything about her. And that it would be easy to go back to me in that regard. So why doesn’t she come back to work on the M? Is it the OM? I point blank asked her. If you weren’t seeing someone else, would that make it easier for you to considering working on the marriage? Is it because you have someone else that you can’t come back to me?

To this I got her answer, which is my biggest debatable point of the night – Is it me, or is it the OM? What’s the #1 thing? Or maybe is it just her?

Her answer is this: There were a few major mistakes I made early in our relationship that she has not let go of. I have apologized time and time again for them, but she will not them go. No, I did not cheat on her or anything like that. Just basically some bad decisions were made, and I regretted that. I look back and I’m very disappointed in myself. But W says she can never forget those things. Compound all those, with the fact I was a poor listener and didn’t take care of her needs, and finally the things I did at D-Day (kicked her out of the house, argued, called her names, threatened to get a lawyer and give her nothing, etc) all together are baggage that she cannot let go of. She again brought up the Plan A letter with the flower I sent to her work, how she was scared I was a psycho and going to kidnap her, and told me that was the one hurtful thing that I did the entire time since she moved out. Other than that, she said, I have been good. She says she can’t honestly tell me she will be happy with me because she has all that baggage, and no matter how many changes I make, it won’t go away. She cannot let go of the past and for that reason, she does not want to be in a relationshup with me.

She told me she was still very attracted to me and cared about me, she might have even said she loved me, but she also had many chances in this conversation to say she would try, and every time gave the same argument, that she no longer wanted this marriage.

Emails: She told me that the emails I have been sending, the friendly “How are you” fun light emails were putting her off. She said they are acting like nothing is going on, ignoring the fact we are separated and that they are like the mails I used to send her when we were dating. She said that’s why she was making a deliberate attempt to ignore them and not respond (just like I suspected). I told her that I was just being friendly, but that if they were bothering her, that I would stop. She then actually said I didn’t have to stop, or something to that effect. Very strange. But I did tell her I would stop emailing her, just because I think either way, it’s time for that. So that explains the email. She doesn’t like being Plan-A’ed. I think it adds to her guilt. I definitely think she’s been wanting to talk because she wants me to go away.

I remained very consistent and upbeat during the conversation. I was completely honest about my feelings. I explained to her what my thoughts have been over the past couple of months. How I am changing and how I was just trying to be her friend again. And of course, yes when she asked I told her that I was still hopeful we could reconcile our marriage. She didn’t like that answer. She told me she wanted me to “let go”, “get on with my life”, “put her behind me” all that sort of stuff.

Several times, I made it known that the fact that she is seeing someone else, and especially that she started seeing someone else behind my back while we were living together (D-Day) was incredibly hurtful. I told her I was over it, but still hurt by it. She told me I had every right to be hurt by that, and said that she was sorry, and felt terribly guilty for it. She also said that she apparently tells the OM how horrible of a person that she thinks she is every day. Yet he still listens to her she says. I wonder if he will ever tire of her depression. She tells me that every time her friends tell her she is NOT a horrible person, to her that is her being told that she is. She says she carries incredible guilt over what she did, and always will, and she will always feel like a horrible person for what she did to me. This also made her very teary several times in the conversation. I can tell she is not very happy with herself right now. But that she feels she also wouldn’t be happy with me, either.

Good times: Since W brought up all the mistakes and bad times we had over and over again tonight in this conversation, I also wanted to remind her we had good times too. We both started naming all the good things we did, fun things together, and she smiled and got a little teary about it. She said she would always remember those things.

W told me that she doesn’t see her relationship with OM lasting, because he is the guy that came between us. And that as long as she is with him, she will remember that. She wants to work on herself and start clean. But she also admits that right now she is not a strong enough person to do it on her own, and he is a better option than me now. She needs her security blanket and he is it. When she is strong enough I assume she plans to cast him off as well. Many times she told me her intention is to move back to where she’s from and start over. She doesn’t want to live in this state anymore.

She LOVES her job though, and says she loves her job more than me, more than OM even. Her job is her #1 right now (which sucks because OM works there, so yeah, another problem). She says her job is the thing in her life right now that makes her happiest. That if she moves back home, she wants to transfer and work for the same company. Right now W’s job being here is going to keep her in this area. Not sure what the future holds.

W admitted something I have knew all along – She runs away from ALL her problems. She ran away from me when things got bad. In fact, when I asked her what she would have done if I was the one having the A, she said "run away". She said she would have left and never come back. She is and always will be a runner, she says, unless she can learn to deal with it. Since I have known her, she has run from school (quit), run from a few jobs, etc. She’s right there. She does run. It’s funny, she admits it yet she can’t stop doing it.

She seems to KNOW all of the faults she has, yet she can’t fix them. She wants to be a better person but freely admits that she can’t do it. She told me that as long as she stays this way, her relationships will always end the same way and fail. Just like ours did. She was freely willing during this whole conversation, anytime that I said I was sorry for something I did or took the blame, she took her responsibility for her part as well. She always said “It was my fault too”.

She told me she knew that this would make me sad, but that she was very happy to not be in a committed relationship anymore. She said that OM and she were not serious, that she is seeing him yes, but she does not plan for a future with them, he is just her “security blanket” right now. She admitted that she needs a “security blanket” at all times (a man) and that she is working on not needing that blanket anymore. She wants to be able to be happy and take care of herself but right now she needs someone. She said I am still a “security blanket” for her here because I know her better than anyone else. And that she WAS afraid of losing me out of her life completely but realized that divorce would mean that.

I saw a few moments, anytime that we talked about things as if they were final, that she might have been seeing reality set in just a bit. The fog disappearing, if just for a moment. Yes, totally done. She won’t be able to see me ANY MORE. I don’t think she liked the idea of this. She seemed very hesitant when she realized that yes, even if it’s once a year, or an occasional email, if we’re divorced, that all goes away. I am out of her life. Hearing this makes me think PB may have worked. But then again, maybe having this good honest talk with her first will be just as good.

She told me that she has weighed her options many times. And that the easy option for her is coming back to me, and it’s so hard being on her own. Financially, mostly. She cries the most when she talks about all of her expenses, how she can’t afford to buy anything she wants, how she is starting to get into debt, how she has no money left after paying the bills. She again got upset at the things she didn’t get to take from the house that were hers when she moved out (I again offered her the camera). She expressed worry that I would fight her on the car if we dv (It was a car I owned before we even met), I told her no, I did not intend to fight her on anything, she could have the car.

I told her that I regretted not trying to work things out back then, after D-Day, like we are talking now. She said that she thinks that MIGHT have made a difference. That my actions after D-Day, kicking her out of the house and also putting up a lot of arguments and saying hurtful things were the final straw and, at that point, she found it easy to give up on the M. Thus, the A intensified and turned PA. And a lot of that was because I didn’t handle it properly when it first happened. At least she validated when I told her that I was just feeling so hurt then that I was acting irrationally. She understands that but she still remembers how much I hurt her back then, because she had hurt me.

Her wedding rings: She told me she still has them, and they sit on her dresser. She says she will never pawn them off. But she has not worn them since I asked her to remove them (in my angry phase) after D-Day.

The only problem is, that this leaves no room for the Plan B letter. Unfortunately I’m off the game board now. W’s sort of blown my chance of getting to PB tonight by basically playing that divorce card again. See, she brought it up point blank with me that I know she can’t afford financially to file on her own (to “fight”, as she called it) thus I was being controlling by declining to sign the papers. She did tell me that I can’t be forced to do anything but it’s what she really wants right now. Sending a PB letter right now I think would be silly, she would be frustrated that I just didn’t sign the Dv papers instead. I was tempted to ask her for a “trial divorce”, which is basically a Plan B, to see how it goes, but I didn’t get there. Maybe I should have. But at this point, with out contact already being so rare, my guess is she’d have thought the idea silly.

I got a lot of “the next girl you meet” stuff. I’m sure “the next girl” is going to be very lucky or “Please don’t mistrust the next girl just because of what I did” etc.

I told her to think how hard it was for me, that I had to go through this ALONE, that she always had someone to hug, hold, sleep with, etc and I had no one. Her response was that I am stronger than her, because I am learning and getting through this without needing anyone, and that she needed OM to get through it. The more I think about it, the more I think she is just using him to fill her needs until she doesn’t need him anymore.

On many times during the visit (both before and after R talk started) I told W she looked great, and also told her that I regretted not telling her more how beautiful that she was. She seemed to appreciate that. So I filled some admiration ENs anyway.

She told me she still visits my website every day to see what I’m up to (I sometimes post general fun commentary updates about my activities there).

Anyway, surprisingly I don’t feel too bad about everything. Again, I have no expectations that what happened tonight will bring W and I any closer. But who knows, stranger things have happened. I proved to her that I could listen and empathize. I told her that there was no way I could tell her about changes I was learning to make. She told me that she could tell just from talking to me that I was changing for the better.

A couple times during the conversation, I had told her to bring the divorce papers over and I will sign them. At this point, she has point blank asked me to do that and I feel that my continually saying no is just pushing her further away. Giving her another negative, controlling thing to think of me. So I decided to switch gears into the “If you love something, set it free…” philosophy. Sure, she may not come back, but at least now she sees that I am willing to give her what she wants. I let her know that I still did not want the divorce, but if that’s what she wanted to be happy, then I would sign the papers. I just don’t see a reason to prolong it anymore. Strangely enough, signing those papers or even agreeing to sign might be enough to show her that I am not trying to make her life difficult. Maybe it will be a reality check. Who knows. Or maybe it will take the divorce going through, I don’t know.

In other words, now that the relationship talk floodgates are open, it’s not an elephant in the room anymore (she liked that analogy, at one point she said there are a whole pack of elephants in the room in the corner smoking cigarettes and playing poker). I think that, if nothing else, we’ll have a couple good relationship talks before this is all over.

She told me she felt very comfortable telling me all this stuff tonight and talking, only because she had “nothing to lose”. She admitted that in our relationship, and any relationship, she has problems expressing her feelings out of the fear of what the repercussions might be, so she couldn’t talk. In her mind, right now, our relationship is over, so she can finally be honest with me about everything she is feeling. Ironic huh?

She many times got sad and said that she didn’t want me out of her life. At one point I again got the line that she thinks we were always meant to be friends, and wished we could always be friends. I didn’t want to give her the idea that after a divorce I’d want to really see her or be a friend to her, just because I don’t think I can. So I did play that off. It made her get visibly sad, and in fact every time she thought about me being out of her life completely, she told me she hated the thought she could never see me again.

So anyway, I assumed that when she left, her next contact with me/visit would be to take care of the papers. It just felt that way. Then, on her way out the door, I thanked her for talking to me about everything and for being honest and for coming over to talk about everything. I figured the next thing she would have said was “I’ll be back with the papers next week…” But instead what I got was “Can we talk some more sometime?”. On her way down the driveway then, I told her to say hi to the cat for me. She told me that the cat misses me. Suddenly I feel like she might have already had a second thought about jumping into these papers. Again, I may be way reading into it, but I got the impression that she might be hesitating just a bit. Especially since she asked to talk more. I told her to get in touch with me when she wanted to do that, and that I would love to talk more. Strangest of all, I do feel we pretty much covered everything tonight, so I can’t be sure what else she wants to talk about. But I would love to even just talk more about us, even if it's just to listen to her tell me more of the things I did wrong. She was right, really. I made a lot of mistakes and as sorry as I am for those, I can't change the past. If she's going to carry that baggage with her like she says she's doing, there's nothing I can do. I think an IC would be great for her. I may ask her if she ever considered one next time we talk.

Wow, what a long message and a monumental night. I know most of it’s negative but for some reason I feel okay about it. I was sick of playing the games of ignoring the facts and truth be told, I really had been dying to have a good talk with her about everything, so I was glad she started it. I know that I was supposed to just let her do all of the talking and leave it at that, but after her comments about wanting to talk about this stuff for a LONG TIME (the whole elephant in the room stuff again) as well as the fact that my emails were bothering her, I’m glad we got it all out in the open, really. W basically said she has been wanting to bring this up to me for a long time (relationship talk) but just didn’t know how to start.

So, there ya go. Congrats on making it through this post. You probably need a nap now. Thanks for listening. The bottom line is that I know I am now way off the board with MB techniques, I feel okay about it. I didn’t play any games with how I feel. I gave her honest answers and I feel she gave me honest answers as well. I think she appreciated that. I think the fact alone that I was agreeable to her and even the fact that I told her I would sign the papers got her thinking that I am changing.

I know I'm supposed give into signing Dv papers at all costs, but honestly, after hearing her talk tonight, I could see that putting up a fight on those papers was just going to make her want to divorce me even more. Maybe by giving her what she wants, I’ll get another chance. You never know. But if not, I still don’t regret it, and I’ll be sure and ask her one more time, if I have done all I can to save the marriage, and if she’s sure this is what she wants.

Whew.

ALS

<small>[ March 31, 2003, 08:21 PM: Message edited by: ALostSoul ]</small>

Your wife still sounds as though she is in the fog from your post. She has put you through a lot emotionally and spiritually, but it sounds as though you will finally get some closure. You can honestly say that you made every effort to forgive her and rebuild your marriage, as she is the one who gave up without really trying. I would not be so quick, however, to give her your car and other items. She wants the divorce and I feel that she is no longer your problem. Don't be quick to give away your assets because you feel that your actions after D-day were not that great. She is the one that lied and went outside of your marriage for companionship. The OM is an [censored] that should be locked up for his role in this. She wants to end the marriage and stay friends, I say why bother.

I strongly suggest you file seperation papers rather than divorce papers if that is possible in your state.

Works the same as a divorce in that it seperates you both legally in terms of living arrangements and finances.

It acts as a precursor to divorce without making it final. Leaves room for reconcilation while keeping the divorce as an option.

Also gives you both a "trial" run at being divorced.

Wow. Your wife is in a tight spot. One thing that I kept saying out loud to the monitor was "all she has do is choose to change, is choose to keep you in her life, is choose to not run away. How hard is that?"

I'm going to disagree with your assessment with Plan B. I think it will still be a valuable tool for you. Again, Cerri will have the better advice.

Your wife recognizes so much about the absurdity of the situation but stands by idly. It's sad. She's in for a real struggle if she continues this path. This is an opportunity that she seems to want to dismiss ... and I'm not just talking about your marriage.

I think you did well.

Hey, thanks for the replies. Didn't expect to see so many on a Sunday night already. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Mfisher -- Well, she may still be in a fog of sorts but I think it's somehow dissipating. I mean, she at least seems to understand what she is doing, I was pretty much in complete understanding of her feelings and agreement of how she saw things were between us. I really had nothing to differ with her about, other than the fact I thought our M was worth giving it a try instead of just walking away. I think the big point I'd love to make to her is just that whatever baggage she has in the past, it's still going to be there whether she's married to me or not. Maybe she's afraid that if she has to look at me every day, the reminder will always be there, but I don't think my NOT being there is going to make it even better. In fact, wouldn't working it out with me actually help that baggage to go away? Learning from the past to save the future? Just my opinion, of course.

The car she is driving now is very old and I don't really have a problem with her taking it. She only asked for whatever she bought with her own money when she left, and she still left a lot behind. She is asking for no part of the house or any other assets. Getting a lawyer involved would actually end up being more expensive in fees compared to what she wants. I don't really have any debate with her there.

Stunned Dad -- I would be fine with filing for separation, most definitely. But she doesn't want that really. She wants her maiden name back. I actually asked her if she couldn't just go to the courts and change it back. She told me she tried and they could not do it. I'm not so sure about that. I really just think she wants the divorce. The guilt she carries with her is amplified by the fact she is still legally married. In our conversation she told me that she considered herself no longer legally married when she moved out, as soon as her address changed she, in her mind, was no longer married. But I still think she really needs this Dv to try and feel better about herself for what she is doing. I suppose I can ask about separation but I'm almost positive that the answer I'd get from her is no. She has no hope for the M so why would she want a trial divorce type of situation.

Hey Whippit - Thanks for feeling my pain! I know man, I know. She claims that changing isn't something she is capable of. We actually talked about changing a bit.

I just remembered something I forgot to tell you all about -- I was talking a bit about the books I was reading. She told me she tried to read a book that explained why it's important to leave the past in the past, and to not obsess over it, or have regrets of what may have been if you made different decisions. That the past was over and that all you could do now is work from the present. Unfortunately, she told me she couldn't get past the first few pages of it. She just couldn't get into it. She says she can't change the way she thinks, she can't stop thinking of the past and all of my mistakes.

As for Plan B, I do believe there would be value in it for me. So does Cerri actually. Honestly, though, I feel like I've been in Plan B anyway lately.

I feel so bad for my W, I really do. I didn't tell her this, but when she sits there and cries or just looks sad, I have an almost irresistable urge to just want to walk over to her, to hold her and comfort her, and to make her feel better. I just wish I could make all the pain go away for her, to hold her in my arms and take care of her. To get our lives back on track and put all of this horrible stuff behind us for good.

By dismissing the opportunity, do you mean that you feel she can see her problems, yet for some reason just wants to not address them? Or just hold onto them? I suppose in a way, it's easier to just try and ignore them, or hope they go away on their own. I know that I've learned more about myself and changing from actually working at it, learning from mistakes, practicing. These sites, books, and counseling HAVE made a difference. I'm sure they would for her as well.

I'm glad you think I did well. I do wish that I wouldn't have told her I was willing to sign the Dv papers. She asked me so directly though and I feel like just saying no over and over again is going to make her resent me even more. I really don't know where this will lead, but I am pleased that she and I were able to communicate so well that night. At least she knows that I have been trying and did not want to give up on us and our M. I know it's not going to help ease her guilt, but it does give me the peace of mind to have shared that with her.

ALS

ALS:

Horse Puckey!!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" />

Look. If it were me, and it's NOT, I would NOT sign those DV papers. Make HER push the DV through. Make her get OM to help her PAY FOR THEM. Let him realize just how much having "access" to another man's wife will cost him!

Sorry for the harsh post, but you deserved it! Your W is a very confused woman right now. She wants her cake, frosting, filling, candles, and the serving tray all at the same time! EVERYTHING she described that she wants and needs would be filled by reconciling with YOU. Even some of the stuff she didn't say, directly, like learning a little RESPONSIBILITY and gaining some personal security in the process.

This is NOT over. I'm not sure you're ready for plan B or not. Ask your coach. But I do NOT believe you are ready for DV. FAR FROM IT.

-Qfwfq

ALS-

Your poor W, bless her soul, can't see the forest through the trees can she? She's definitely a fence sitter and enjoys the arrangement at present with this OM and you chasing her and providing all her needs. You, on the other hand, get a few crumbs of EN's met when she stops by for these infrequent visits. I've been there and it sucks.

I agree with the others that Plan B can still be effective for you if implemented correctly. I wouldn't continue on with Plan A while at the same time resigning yourself to signing papers because I don't think you're ready for a D. Make her do all the work and if she gets upset, tough!! IMO, she needs a more realistic idea of what things will be like with a D before it's too late. The idea of you two remaining chums after a D is not very likely. Good luck with this, overall I think you did well....

Foglatin.

Plan B.

DO NOT willingly participate in the divorce. On the other hand, do not block it. Let it transpire as a passive participant. One of two things will happen:

1. She will wake up as the slow process proceeds (not likely, IMHO), or
2. The divorce will take place solely by her hand.

Do not underestimate the importance of door number 2 to your recovery - and, believe it or not, hers. You will exit knowing you did all you could and you will have no guilt. All of it will have been done by her and she will carry the weight for a long time. Do not think of this as vengeful. Eventually the weight may be the catalyst that enables her healing as a person, thus it's the most loving thing you can do in the long term.

Okay, the general feeling I'm getting here is that you folks think I should start a Plan B, and let her initiate any Dv proceedings if that's what she wants.

First off, I know she won't initiate Dv on her own right now. It's all about money. Frankly, I wonder why I should even let it come to that. I realize it's JUST money, but seriously, I think if we took the no-fault route, it would cost a couple hundred dollars. I think with lawyers involved, that is, if she files on her own, it will likely cost us several thousand dollars. Not only that, but I also assume that if we go the full-blown battle route with the Dv, she will try for all she can. Which means I could possibly lose the house (or at least some of the equity, not sure how that works since I bought the house before we got married and made all the payments, and it's solely in my name).

The bottom line is this -- If the end result is likely going to be the same (a divorce), I don't see a lot of difference in making her do it all herself as opposed to reluctantly agreeing to sign paperwork, letting her know full well that it's not what I want and agree with. I mean, at least at that point she can still know that it's her driving the decision, and I'm just trying to give her what she wants to make her happy, while at the same time protect my finances and my own future.

That being said, it's kind of discouraging that you all think she's definitely going to hit me up with the Dv papers soon. Sure, I do see it as possible, though maybe this talk we had is the start of something else. I'm not sure. Like I said, we haven't really had a talk like that since D-Day. Finally we are being honest and open. I felt in that regard, it was a breakthrough.

I'd sure like to hear from some WS in this thread, if any are reading, to hear there opinions on where my W might be right now and what she's feeling. I do hate to see her in so much inner conflict like this, I know she is being a little selfish now but I can see she is searching herself, and just trying to do what she feels is right for her future. Naturally, I'm being selfish too, to think that her right place is with me, she just might not see it that way. I just want her to at least know that I am willing to try, and that I wouldn't let her down. But if her heart wasn't in it, we'd be doomed to fail again anyway.

ALS

ALS:

I'm not sure you got the point. Look, this isn't about making her pay thousands of dollars and taking half the house. But even if it was, is possibly saving your M worth that risk to you? Heck, I have a house that's appreciated 400% since I bought it. I could probably retire if I sold it now. But I'd gladly risk losing that if I thought it would save my M.

I think the point here is that there are a TON of reasons to hope for a reconciled M here, but your W is so lost in the fog that just playing along with what she currently THINKS she wants will NOT be doing her or you any favors whatsoever. The point is to not go so willingly to the slaughter. Refuse to sign the papers. Let the subject drop entirely from your vocabulary. And if plan B is the recommendation of your coach, you can also remove yourself from the wrath that will surely come when she hears you've changed your mind about the DV.

She's going to be tweaked, but if you're in NC, you won't hear it. And guess who will?? You guessed it! The OM. Think just how heavenly their R will be while she's starting to increasingly vent her frustrations to HIM about what she perceives as YOU doing to her. But you know? This is exactly what she needs to do. She needs to get this out, keep it coming out, until she realizes that, just like everybody else on this "worldlet" of ours, she's solely responsible for the consequences of the choices she makes.

Plan B, if it's what the Dr orders, is precisely intended for situations like this. Your W is ripe with need for some defogging, but she has to do it herself. You won't be "helping her" by signing the DV papers so willingly. You WILL be helping her if you "make her" think (though you won't be making her do anything, really, you'll be creating a situation for her to take that initiative as well).

All my best,
-Qfwfq

<small>[ March 17, 2003, 07:22 AM: Message edited by: Qfwfq ]</small>

Yeah ... what Qfwfq and WAT said. It's good stuff, really. If, on the one hand, you were ready for it all to be done, then I'd say signing the papers is the way to go. But you're not at that point and clearly so.

You still did very well with what you had. Put your head together with Cerri and develop your strategy to recover your agreement to sign and move into PB. I'm sure she's got some great advice.

I'll be thinking of you. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Alright, I guess the big issue here is this.

The big theme regarding OM when W and I talked was the fact that he was such a good listener at that I never was. My W told me this a lot during our M, I was a bad listener, and I wanted to be better, but I just didn't know how. She told me that in OM she saw someone who was a good listener, a good empathizer. He is her shoulder to cry on. Right now, OM is willing to talk to her when she is sad or will listen to her as long as she needs, even if it's just listening to her cry about everything that's bothering her.

So, now, what did my W do with me on Thursday? She gave me a chance to do this for her. She poured all her problems out in front of me, she bared her soul, she gave me the opportunity again to listen. She saw changes in me, she saw that I was able to listen to her and was sypmathetic to her problems. Maybe she even thought, "Hey, wow, he's actually getting it. He's becoming the man I always hoped he could be. He's learning." In fact, when she left, she even asked if we could talk some more. Maybe because this was good for her? Maybe finally we're having a breakthrough?

THEN...With her having all these thoughts in her mind, that I'm getting better, I'm safe to talk to again, we're making some progress, we are FINALLY talking...I'm going to write her an email that says "Hey, great talking to you but do NOT say a word to me again unless you leave the OM." Doesn't anyone think that's going to go over BADLY? Possibly even be the final straw for her? Oh sure, it might prolong the Dv process. I can prolong it for 2 years if I want to (she can file no-fault on her own in 2 years after living at her own address). But the end result is going to be the same. AND, to top it off, I'll have thrown away 2 years.

I know you all can see that I don't want a Dv. You know what, I never will. I don't believe in them. I love my W and I believe that we could work through anything. But at some point I need to realize that I need to move on, too.

I was married for 1 year before my W had an A. That's it. A year. I've already given this 5 months. Even if I were to sign Dv papers today, that would mean I'd have given this process 8 months. Nearly as long as my entire marriage lasted. Were this a longer marriage, or were there kids involved, or perhaps even my W gave me some sort of impression that we might work things out eventually, I'd have reason to avoid Dv.

Right now, I guess I'm questioning why I am prolonging the inevitable. If she wants Dv so bad, why not just give her what she wants? Maybe in the 3 months it takes to go through, that will be enough for her to realize that she is losing me forever. But if not, by the time those 3 months are over, if I can Plan B that entire time, I feel I'll be ready to move on anyway.

ALS

Q, ALS, and others. I am aware of a divorce where by granting his wife MORE than the lawyer asked for, the husband eventually got his wife back. In this case, his wife percieved him as controlling, and that he did not care about her, dn that he cared a lot about money. His actions during the divorce were completely incompatible with those beliefs. Sometimes, giving them what they want is a great strategy. Will it work here? I don't know.

Yes, that is something that crossed my mind as well. Just like Plan B, of course, that's a long shot, but a possibility. My W has seen me as controlling in the past, she told me so after D-Day. I am sure my continuing refusal to sign Dv papers was also seen by her as controlling.

I'm not sure what it is, if it was just relief or more of a fear of getting what she wants, but something changed in her when I suggested that I would sign if that's what she wanted. She knew it wasn't what I wanted, but that I was doing it because she said she wanted it to be happy. Like perhaps me finally being willing to give her what she wants to be happy, with no selfish concern of my own, might have given her pause.

At any rate, like all of these last resort things, agreeing to go through with a Dv isn't what I want, but it might be what it takes to bring us together, too. Or it could part us forever. The issue is that at this point, I feel that dragging it out isn't going to have any positive effects or change her mind towards me. It's going to take something different. Just the way I feel about it today. I may totally wrong.

ALS

Then don't Plan B.

The premise of your long post was that you waited too long for Plan B. If you're ready for it, do it. If not, don't. I agree with your logic that FINALLY you "listened." Good. Listen some more. But she's just justifying her past decisions.

WAT

WAT,

Please don't think I'm not appreciating or listening to any of your advice or anyone else's here, I appreciate it all. Also, I need opinions and advice to make sure I'm not just being manipulated into making stupid decisions. So please call it like you see it, NEVER tell me what you think I want to hear. I appreciate the honest advice I get here, always have.

Personally, I don't really see her as justifying her actions. I mean yes, she is reminding me of all the reasons that led to the downfall of our M and the A. But I was careful to tell her that, regardless of how bad things might have been for her, that having the A was wrong and hurtful to me. She did not deny this. I let her know that had she talked it over with me first and maybe tried MC or otherwise, then to leave, that would have been a LOT different than having an A behind my back. I was very careful to point that out. I had to draw the line there, and defend myself a little bit. I wanted her to know that, no matter how bad things were, the A was wrong.

I never even had the chance to listen since D-Day. At least, I might have had some chances in our marriage, which I failed at. OM became the listener she always wanted me to be. So part of me feels that, if I'm going to get a chance to be the listener she needs again, I need to at least show that I am capable of that right now. It's finally the chance to take all I have learned here in the past 4 months and apply it towards something. Plan B is still a strong possibility, I'm still on the fence on that, but I'm also considering the possibility that the "new ALS" came through in our talk last week, and it might be giving her some food for thought.

Maybe, just maybe.

ALS

Put your helmet on, ALS:

"The big theme regarding OM when W and I talked was the fact that he was such a good listener at that I never was."

You aren't the first BS to hear this. And I'm sure that the OM will continue to be a "better listener" so long as he's able to have only the good moments with your W. When he has to deal with the daily grind, he'll get tired of it. Unless she tosses his limp-rag used up self in the can before that happens. Does he know he's so expendable?

"My W told me this a lot during our M, I was a bad listener, and I wanted to be better, but I just didn't know how."

But now you're learning how, and she's seeing that you're improving. Hence the 3-hr convo.

"She told me that in OM she saw someone who was a good listener, a good empathizer."

Same point as above.

"He is her shoulder to cry on. "

Hopefully, someday soon he'll transition into 'her cheerios to pi$$ in."!

"So, now, what did my W do with me on Thursday? She gave me a chance to do this for her. She poured all her problems out in front of me, she bared her soul, she gave me the opportunity again to listen. She saw changes in me, she saw that I was able to listen to her and was sypmathetic to her problems. Maybe she even thought, "Hey, wow, he's actually getting it. He's becoming the man I always hoped he could be. He's learning." In fact, when she left, she even asked if we could talk some more. Maybe because this was good for her? Maybe finally we're having a breakthrough?"

ALS, I just hit you with that 2x4. Hope you put your helmet on like I suggested at the beginning. I GOT all that from you original post. I am NOT a plan B kinda guy, as you know. I'm all FOR communication, and so I did see this as a breakthrough. I don't believe that agreeing to signing the DV papers at this point is the right response to such a breakthrough, but I won't be the one to give you that advice, when it might conflict with what your coach would suggest you do.

"THEN...With her having all these thoughts in her mind, that I'm getting better, I'm safe to talk to again, we're making some progress, we are FINALLY talking...I'm going to write her an email that says "Hey, great talking to you but do NOT say a word to me again unless you leave the OM." Doesn't anyone think that's going to go over BADLY?"

Yes, I do think that would go over like a turd in a cesspool, at best. I think I'd take advantage of any chance that she might decide to come vent her spleen again for 3 more hours. Just stay off the topic of DV, if she does. Okay??? OKAY??????

"Possibly even be the final straw for her? Oh sure, it might prolong the Dv process. I can prolong it for 2 years if I want to (she can file no-fault on her own in 2 years after living at her own address). But the end result is going to be the same. AND, to top it off, I'll have thrown away 2 years."

WHAT A GREAT OPPORTUNITY FOR REAL GROWTH!!!. Sheez, ALS. How old are you? late 20's or so, right? I have scars that are older than that!!!! What the hell is 2 years if your M is better than ever at the end of that time?

"I know you all can see that I don't want a Dv."

Yes, so STOP TALKING ABOUT IT. Tell her you need to change the subject. Keep talking about the R like she seems to want to and is starting to feel comfortable with you talking to you about now. Keep working on THAT, on figuring out the problems from both sides that led to this separation, maybe even go so far as to offer that the two of you should help each other heal and grow from this experience BEFORE taking the DV step, so that you can both prevent those problems from haunting your NEXT relationships.

"You know what, I never will. I don't believe in them. I love my W and I believe that we could work through anything. But at some point I need to realize that I need to move on, too."

Need to move on? What do you mean by that? Does it mean blow off the learning process that's just really starting, just to avoid the pain? And you wouldn't avoid it anyway, you know. You'd take it with you to wherever it is you'd be "moving on" to. "Moving on"... sounds so lofty, riding off into the sunset kind of talk. Well, cowboys tended to ride into the dark and the cold if they stayed on the horse long after sunset... Sooner or later you've got to find a spot and make camp for the night.

"I was married for 1 year before my W had an A. That's it. A year. I've already given this 5 months. Even if I were to sign Dv papers today, that would mean I'd have given this process 8 months. Nearly as long as my entire marriage lasted."

Yeah, but you were together longer, from what I remember, right?

"Were this a longer marriage, or were there kids involved, or perhaps even my W gave me some sort of impression that we might work things out eventually, I'd have reason to avoid Dv."

What's your point? Do you love your W? Then don't give up so easily. You said above that you don't want a DV. Don't just sign, ALS (as 2long whacks ALS upside the haid again with that 2x4, cracking the helmet).

"Right now, I guess I'm questioning why I am prolonging the inevitable."

Maybe because it's not inevitable??

"If she wants Dv so bad, why not just give her what she wants?"

If she wants a DV so bad, her "boy toy" OM will be glad to pay for it, won't he? Or maybe he prefers the lack of commitment that M'd women seem to like. For a while.

"Maybe in the 3 months it takes to go through, that will be enough for her to realize that she is losing me forever. But if not, by the time those 3 months are over, if I can Plan B that entire time, I feel I'll be ready to move on anyway."

Huh? You yourself said above that you think it's going to go over badly if you implement plan B NOW, when she's just starting to open up to you.

Talk to Cerri. I don't know your sitch in the detail she probably does, and I'm not a professional (well, I am, but what I do won't help your M at all if I try to apply it to your sitch!!!). Personally, I'd give plan A a little more time, at least one more visit. But maybe plan B is what's needed. I don't know.

Just don't go signing no stinking papers any time soon, okay?

2 years??? At your age??? SHEEZ!,
-Qfwfq

<small>[ March 17, 2003, 03:07 PM: Message edited by: Qfwfq ]</small>

Qfwfq,

Ouch, I haven't been hit by that 2x4 in a long time. Thanks, I needed that. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

"The big theme regarding OM when W and I talked was the fact that he was such a good listener at that I never was."
You aren't the first BS to hear this. And I'm sure that the OM will continue to be a "better listener" so long as he's able to have only the good moments with your W. When he has to deal with the daily grind, he'll get tired of it. Unless she tosses his limp-rag used up self in the can before that happens. Does he know he's so expendable?

Well, it seems like the OM has to listen to her cry a lot about how depressed she is, how horrible a person she feels she is, how she messed up her life, etc. etc. And to be honest with you, as much as I'd like to believe that OM is expendable as she says, that may just be fogspeak to me. She may intend on staying with him long term for all I know. She's saying the same thing to me as when she left 5 months ago, and that's that she can't see staying with OM because he reminds her of what she did to me. But here we are, 5 months later, A still going strong and no sign of ending.

"My W told me this a lot during our M, I was a bad listener, and I wanted to be better, but I just didn't know how."

But now you're learning how, and she's seeing that you're improving. Hence the 3-hr convo.

Yes. And this is why I feel like perhaps some more phone time or face time where I can listen to her even more could only be beneficial. I hope.

ALS, I just hit you with that 2x4. Hope you put your helmet on like I suggested at the beginning. I GOT all that from you original post. I am NOT a plan B kinda guy, as you know. I'm all FOR communication, and so I did see this as a breakthrough. I don't believe that agreeing to signing the DV papers at this point is the right response to such a breakthrough, but I won't be the one to give you that advice, when it might conflict with what your coach would suggest you do.

As I said above, ouch. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> Actually I thanked her many times for communicating with me, told her I was happy we were talking about all of this. However, I do worry that the only reason she was so willing to give all that is BECAUSE I told her I would sign. Perhaps that was the catalyst to her finally feeling she could open up and let it all out. Perhaps also hearing that took away some tension, and made her realize that I wasn't the bad guy she thought I was. Then again, it's also possible that she just felt relief that it will soon be over if I'll sign. Hard to tell. She hasn't knocked on the door with any papers yet. But I am a little scared of what our next interaction will bring, whenever that happens. I hope we can just talk some more, and NOT bring up Dv (as you suggest).

WHAT A GREAT OPPORTUNITY FOR REAL GROWTH!!!. Sheez, ALS. How old are you? late 20's or so, right? I have scars that are older than that!!!! What the hell is 2 years if your M is better than ever at the end of that time?

A valid point, to be sure. I know I am still rather young. Maybe it's just the fact I'm turning 30 in a few months that just has me thinking I won't be young forever.

What's your point? Do you love your W? Then don't give up so easily. You said above that you don't want a DV. Don't just sign, ALS (as 2long whacks ALS upside the haid again with that 2x4, cracking the helmet).

Believe me, I don't want to be the guy that gives up, I don't. It's just a strange situation. W is truly in no financial state at all to file on her own. If she were, I am almost positive she would have filed on her own by now. I also feel she wants to avoid a court battle though, avoid lawyers, and all that, so the only way to go right now is no-fault for her. That would mean me signing or her waiting 2 years. I guess if things were slowly progressing for us, or she wasn't pushing so hard for the Dv, I could go the full 2 years or even more. It's the fact that she has point blank told me now that she wants this divorce that has me questioning why I am holding on so desperately. I just didn't feel a lot of doubt from her, well, maybe not until the very end of our conversation when she asked to talk more.

If she wants a DV so bad, her "boy toy" OM will be glad to pay for it, won't he? Or maybe he prefers the lack of commitment that M'd women seem to like. For a while.

I don't know OM and never met him, so I can't really say, he could be in it for the long haul or tiring of it. I'm not sure. If my W is still with him 5 months later he must have something that attracts her. I know myself and have confidence that I am a better man than OM. Perhaps not at D-Day, but now. In every way I feel that I am a better man for her, and a better man in general. First and foremost, I would NEVER be a guy who got involved with a married woman. I couldn't do it. That one fact alone should tell my W something.

Maybe because it's not inevitable??

You're right, it's not inevitable yet.

Yeah, but you were together longer, from what I remember, right?

Yes, we've known each other almost 4 years now.

Huh? You yourself said above that you think it's going to go over badly if you implement plan B NOW, when she's just starting to open up to you.

My thinking was that if she wants me to sign papers, I would do so then go into Plan B mode. Disappear for the 3 months it takes the papers to process. If, in those 3 months, by the end, she still allows the papers to go through, then it was meant to be. I figured a 3 month Plan B would be all I could do anyway.

Yes, so STOP TALKING ABOUT IT. Tell her you need to change the subject. Keep talking about the R like she seems to want to and is starting to feel comfortable with you talking to you about now. Keep working on THAT, on figuring out the problems from both sides that led to this separation, maybe even go so far as to offer that the two of you should help each other heal and grow from this experience BEFORE taking the DV step, so that you can both prevent those problems from haunting your NEXT relationships.

Excellent advice, thank you. This is what I'd love to do. I have been wanting to do this since D-Day. I really have. I do believe that right now, and this is just my interpretation, that her guilt level is high, and she feels that Dv would make it go down. I'm not sure if it will or not, it is possible that it will, but the bottom line is that in her current state, I don't feel she will be very open to a long series of discussions. Maybe I'm wrong. I hope I am. But I would be happy to help her heal, help us heal, even if Dv is still in the plan, to work through a lot of these issues first. Maybe along the way we'd have a breakthrough.

I had some more thoughts but I can't remember now, I'm sure I'll be back. Thanks for the well-thought reply!

ALS

<small>[ March 17, 2003, 05:11 PM: Message edited by: ALostSoul ]</small>

I remember the other thing I wanted to ask, and no one really addressed it so I figured I'd mention it again.

Any thoughts on why my W cannot bring herself to use the word "divorce"? I swear, the more I think about it, I don't know if she ever let that word leave her lips ONCE.

It makes a lot more sense now that back in January she said "I want my name back" and just meant "I want a divorce". Honestly the first time I said that I thought she was just talking about wanting her name back, not necessarily divorce.

Now, I know it's some weird thing that she can't bring herself to say "divorce". The next time she brings it up that way, I'm tempted to ask her "Why can't you just say you want a divorce?" though I can guess what you'll all tell me about saying something like THAT to her.

But still, I guess it's just a guilt thing, sorta like someone who cheated on their spouse doesn't want to admit they cheated or had an A, they also don't want to say they asked for a divorce?

ALS

ALS:

"Any thoughts on why my W cannot bring herself to use the word "divorce"? I swear, the more I think about it, I don't know if she ever let that word leave her lips ONCE."

Now THAT is interesting!

"It makes a lot more sense now that back in January she said "I want my name back" and just meant "I want a divorce". Honestly the first time I said that I thought she was just talking about wanting her name back, not necessarily divorce."

So, she can certainly call herself by her maiden name if she wants to. My W uses both our last names. I jokingly suggested, when we got M'd, that we should swap last names, or mix them up and make us a new one!

"Now, I know it's some weird thing that she can't bring herself to say "divorce". The next time she brings it up that way, I'm tempted to ask her "Why can't you just say you want a divorce?" though I can guess what you'll all tell me about saying something like THAT to her."

You still got that helmet on, right??? But I'll hold off until you can get that crack repaired. Don't want to risk causing REAL damage, you know.

"But still, I guess it's just a guilt thing, sorta like someone who cheated on their spouse doesn't want to admit they cheated or had an A, they also don't want to say they asked for a divorce?"

I think so. She'd like to hang on to as much of what's left of her integrity as she can. Again, just be supportive of her. Show her you're there to help her if and when she'll let you. Let her figure out that you're the one that it makes the most sense to open up to... ...as soon as she's ready to.

-Qfwfq